Is the tone style of the Unity forums dropping?

Is there a way to measure a forums tone/style as things seem to be going downhill here at least as far as I can see?

This is just a general observation, are there any forum analysis tools that can scientifically detect changes in a forums mood and style over time.

Or is it that most of the professional game developers are too busy and that just leaves the near do wells to loiter and troll in the dungeon that the Unity Forum is turning into!

PS If you made a game that was about your experience of the Unity forum would it be upbeat or downbeat and where would you set it e.g. Luxury holiday with tropical sunlit beaches amazing service or Oozing moaning diablo esque dungeon from hell.

Or is the Unity Forum going through the same online community life cycle as every other online forum?

http://wiki.c2.com/?CommunityLifeCycle

An example a post on AI on the Unity and Unreal forums, lets compare and contrast the responses:

Unity -> https://forum.unity3d.com/threads/a...be-wary-of-bringing-ai-into-our-games.456996/

Unreal -> https://forums.unrealengine.com/sho...ould-we-be-wary-of-bringing-AI-into-our-games

 

Actually the forums are quite helpful and nice when I show up, I love the number of knowledgeable people I can find. It seems more trollish to you because you keep posting batshit insane threads.

 

Nothing is going downhill except your ability to find new topics to discuss. You've continually created threads about concepts, had them shot down because they were genuinely not correct, only to recreate them again at a later date as if somehow that will change the results.

 

Or is the Unity Forum going through the same online community life cycle as every other online forum?

http://wiki.c2.com/?CommunityLifeCycle

 

Critical does not mean it's on a downbeat. Critical is a positive trait it's good to not take everything at face value.

 

Fixed that for you. General Discussion is the only section that seems to truly change in any way. Other sections have largely remained the same since I first joined barring those that didn't exist initially of course.

 

This is largely due to the hard work of the moderators. They do a fantastic job.

 

Seems fine to me! We still have our newcomers who post in the wrong forum or what us to help them find an idea for their game. We still have the serious newcomers who ask for help in all the right places. We have the curmudgeony types who have tons of posts and shoot down whatever anyone says, but we love them anyway. We still have the upbeat optimists who make us feel better. We have the insightful posts that make me want to take notes in case I forgot the wonderful nugget they gave us.

And we still have those who feel the forums are getting worse because no one agrees with them...and the ones who love the forums because everyone likes their posts.

Seems like it hasn't changed a bit!

 

I think I can provide you with a scientific analysis between the years 2009 to 2017.

2009 Arowx post count 1
2017 Arowx post count >5000

Clearly there is direct scientific correlation between post count and forum degradation.

 

I would say most likely it is going downhill for you specifically.

You ask a thing (usually related to a buzzword), ignore responses you get, then keep arguing about it even when you obviosuly don't even understand what you're talking about, then run away, and next week return with the next buzzword.

You've been doing that for at least a year. Obviously people are going to get fed up with you and will start acting in less positive fashion.

See? Same thing. Completely ignoring previous resposnes, and posting a next buzzfeed-style nonsense headline.

"Are game developers secretly lizards? Click here to find out the shocking truth!"

 

Then there are threads concerning game concepts, creating a very rough prototype and claiming it is a finished project.

Or simply put him on ignore. Some of his threads have sparked interesting conversations in the past but they're starting to feel very stale now and frequently devolve into arguments and debates.

 

Oddly, I don't have him on ignore. lol Maybe I just miss those threads.

 

Link isn't working. I want to know the truth!

 

I believe @Arowx thinks we are here:

The Decline, the formation of cliques and factions, incidents of abuse, of intellectual violence and namecalling. The software becomes encrusted with patches and extensions, the unwritten rules are flouted regularly and the meta-rules all but forgotten. It is a time of either shrinking membership, or overwhelming growth.
​

However, I think that things are better now than they were a year or so ago. I remember some really nasty attacks on posters, especially when discussing things like diversity. Now, it seems we can have some really good discussions without it always devolving into some personal rant.

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it could be that I ignore all those people so don't see it but in my eyes, that means it is better.

Oh, and the moderators are great.

 

@Arowx - The attitude towards you and your threads is dropping fast. Elsewhere the rest of the community is ticking along fine.

If you want to change things, why not focus on responding to other people's threads for a while. Spend time outside of the general discussion forum and outside of your own threads. You've managed to create a weird ecosystem inside your own threads, that doesn't match up with the rest of the forum. And since you post almost exclusively on your own threads, you aren't getting to see some of the wonderful stuff that's happening in the rest of the forum.

You can script, so go to scripting and help some noob find a semi colon. Jump into getting started, or game design or editor support, or any of the dozen other forums we have. Respond to other people, and help them out.

Otherwise you'll find the bubble you are in will get continue to get smaller and more toxic.

 

Start concentrating on your games. Why don't put all your games in a steam bundle like action 52

 

The forums are great here. Even for beginner like me who ask stupid questions everyone is very friendly and helpful, especially after learning how to use code tags...

 

Where'd this come from? I see potential correlation, but no little or no causation between some of the things in that description (eg: software patches and formation of cliques/factions). It also seems exceptionally subjective. How can something be considered a "decline" if it could be a period of "overwhelming growth"?

It sounds to me far more like someone describing a thing they don't like than it does any kind of formal analysis of a stage within a system. "I don't like it when this stuff starts happening, so I'm going to shove 'em all in a group and name it and act like they're related".

 

Just in case you didn't see the post (#4) that mentioned the website it came from:

https://forum.unity3d.com/threads/i...he-unity-forums-dropping.457143/#post-2965377

And the site itself:

http://wiki.c2.com/?CommunityLifeCycle

 

As we already mentioned in your recent thread about AI, you need to get more knowledge about certain topics before posting alarmist threads about those topics. And that assessment showed up in both the Unity and Unreal forum threads you posted. In your AI thread in the Unity forum, I even recommended a book that would help you.

On the Unreal forum, people gave you the following comments:
1) The concept is nice but not really based on reality.
2) I think you don't understand the concept of "AI" as currently available, nor the concepts of "agency" and "motivation" in what drives some thinking entity to take certain actions.
3) Work on more general AI, the type that could at least theoretically go rogue, is very different from everyday game AI.
4) See an Arowx thread like this almost made me thought I was on the Unity boards
5) What if donkeys can fly one day?

 

This is perhaps a great example of what I was talking about. You are comparing the response on both communities to you. Which says nothing about the general health of the communities. You are not the community. Nor are your threads representative of the forums. People can be sick of you while the community is still strong.

If you want a better comparison, grab a random sample of threads. Check the communities response to new users, to veterans, to hobbyists, to professionals. The communities response to a couple of posts by crazies isn't especially telling.

 

I'm starting to believe this person is attention starved, or a troll, and that's why they keep making all of these threads.

 

I have been around the forums since the beginning of Unity 2 (went by another name back then).

Here's the facts, based on my experience. Mind you, I was heavily involved in the forums for awhile, then took a huge break & came back later to be casually involved.

• The Unity Forums used to be significantly more Toxic. There were a lot of horrible users in the community, and even the administrators at the time were part of the problem. It was a community akin to a bunch of elitists who were all chummy with one another. When Unity began to get popular where newbies would flood in, they'd eat them alive. I saw newbies get banned even after the community harassed them. There were very few good apples, not very many people (compared to today), and overall was just not a good place to talk (I mostly lurked; watching people tear one another apart).
• When Unity became very popular, the community really felt divided. One half jerkass bitter elites, the other half optimistic hopeful newbies. This rift was a pretty big deal from what I saw. Eventually the optimistic hopeful newbies won out.
• I left the forums before the major (positive) changes. I don't know when things changed. Coming back, and I can tell you it's wonderful compared to then. It's like Night/Day change. The only forum users I remember from back then are now moderators, and those were the good guys at the time (ex. Hippocoder is still around, but he was one of the nicest in that community). All the toxic users have long since abandoned the site. The bad apple admin/mods were also gotten rid of.
• The new administrators, community managers, moderators, and overall community are SIGNIFICANTLY better. IMO, this is now one of the friendliest & best communities in all of the gamedev internet.
• The forum is incredibly popular compared to then. Unity has exploded in popularity, and has done a great job restructuring their forum leadership to encourage a positive community. Although I believe that insane amounts of popularity means a ton of new blood washing out the elitist types. The jerks on forums are always those who are well established in the community & form a clique, often BFF's with mods, etc. But since Unity has so many new users or casual users, and the mods are not allowed to be corrupted by bias or heavy handed, it's all great. The elitist types don't want to stay around a community where they're always losing to new blood. The forum regulars who remain are pretty much the good ones. (Even the present day bad ones are past day good ones, hehe).
• There are still some forum regulars who are nasty towards newbies, but compared to the old levels of toxicity? They are saints. Think...individuals who are kindof rude to newbies (present) compared to huge swashes of the community who would gang up together to tear newbies apart (past). That is a big difference in the overall feel of the community.
• Upon realizing there's a small number of forum regulars who are "lite" versions of the types who made the community awful, I activate this forum's wonderful ignore feature.
• Ever since ignoring a very small number of forum regulars who are consistently negative / contribute nothing - this place brightened even more. Now, to me, it's like rainbows & gumdrops of positivism. Constructive criticism abounds, but IMO rightfully so. It has value from many users here.
• I also had a few words with Aurora about some of the consistently negative users/trolls (the really bad ones, although they wouldn't post very much), and she made a big deal in reply that she would resolve them. Ever since then, they have disappeared entirely - so it apparently worked. Now everyone who posts seems to be great people- and even the ones I ignore aren't that bad considering "it's the internet", hehe.

So overall, 10/10, this forum is fantastic. IMO, it is abnormally a positive place to come.

However this is only achieved through using that ignore feature. I would even go as far as to suggest others ignore some users who you simply dislike reading their opinions. ANYONE who increases your level of stress. Whenever I find myslef facepalming a user too often, I simply place on ignore. (The great thing is that after one round of ignoring a few users; I've never had to ignore anyone else ever again). That's why I think this forum is great. I've been in communities where I ended up ignoring pretty much the entire community. So to only ignore a handful of regulars? IMV that means proof that this community is pretty great.

And don't get me wrong. Even back in the days of Unity 2, it wasn't MOBA-levels of toxicity. It was less blatant childish insults and more subtle adult elitism. It was just typical forum internet type cliques and bias. Just normal for most communities who allow its elites to also become moderators. Internet forum dwellers just aren't the type who like Newbies or members of Out-Groups. Idk why, but that's pretty normal.

But today's posts of "I want to make a MMO, where is the button?" are handled wonderfully compared to in the past. You didn't want to ask that question back then.

 

One very confusing thing about the whole situations is his age. If the age information is legit, that's... uh... doesn't make much sense.

 

You'll get that sometimes. Really, check out Above Top Secret if you want to see this kind of thing in motion. On another note, I agree with CarterG81, the forums have improved 100 fold in the last years. Though, just blocking everything that makes you a bit sad and such is creating an echo chamber. Sometimes it's ok to have a little negativity as well.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't block users just because they disagree with me. I just block the ones I feel frustrate me needlessly either through their purposeful trolling, high levels of negativity, or astounding stupidity. There's maybe... 4 users I ignore? And while they do post all the time, anytime I ever click "Show Ignored Content" I see that as always, they provided absolutely nothing constructive or contribution to the conversation. Just the same thing every time: needless negativity derived from a total lack of experience actually making games.

I refer to them as "Empty Content" (I had a better term for this, but forgot it). The type of users who posts constantly, but never has anything of value in any post other than to be negative towards people WITHOUT being constructive.

 

Fixed that for you by adding the relevant information. The reality is that different people occupy different sections. What may seem like someone who is completely negative may only be the result of you seeing a small portion of their posts.

This is largely why I don't have @Arowx on ignore. He actually does do more than post this sort of nonsense.

 

Ironic, as I see every single person I have on my ignore list is in this thread, with posts exclusively targeting Arrowx as a person rather than the actual topic. Not surprising in the least.

@BoredMormon @Ryiah @Teila @neginfinity

Why don't you four simply put Arrowx on ignore, rather than going into his threads to lecture him about how he is creating too many threads?

If you don't like him, just ignore him. You four post just as much as him, and in my view? Your posts are of significantly less value than his.

At least some of the things he posts about are interesting. You just post about how much you think the things he posts about aren't worthy of discussion.

 

For what it's worth, I see those four people completely differently to how you see them. Go ahead and ignore them if you want, but if you genuinely see them as being nothing but negative, frustrating, nonconstructive users then it's nobody's loss but your own.

Also, I've got to be honest here... if there's 4 people on your ignore list, and they're the four, then that shines a completely different light on your narrative of how the forum has changed over time. Edit: To clarify, what I mean by this is that it very much implies that you only value hearing things that you want to hear. I don't always agree with them, and some of them can be blunt at times, but generally I feel that the people you've just pointed out make overall positive contributions around here.

 

Like @ShilohGames mentioned in the other thread, simply disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you dislike them.

Do you know what I find ironic about this discussion? From what I'm able to tell @Arowx doesn't have us ignored. Whether that's because he's simply not bothered by our comments, able to put up with our comments, or actually likes having us comment on his posts I don't know, but he's clearly reading our comments showing he has some form of interest in them.

 

This! Many times!

I actually love discussing things with people who disagree with me, so long as they can do it respectfully. And that's one of the things I really like about this community. I often discuss things with people who disagree with me, and most of the time the whole thing stays not just civil but pleasant.

I also wouldn't want to put people on my ignore list. Even if I genuinely disliked someone they still have an impact on the community overall, or on conversations overall. Removing that from my perception doesn't stop it being true, it just makes me blind to where it's happening, less aware of the context of events I choose to participate in.

 

This is all childish drama. Please ignore this entire thread. However I did think since I was being accused of encouraging an echo chamber, I should respond to encourage the use of the ignore feature.

Plus drams.



Get ready your popcorn!​

Spoiler

Salt your popcorn too!

It's not my loss, it's my gain. I also talked with a lot of people in PM's who feel the same way and ignore (some) of the same people.

No it doesn't, lol. These four people are Saints compared to how the forums used to be. Did you even read my post? I spoke very highly of even those I ignore, in the context of how the forums have changed.

These four don't really disagree with me. In fact I can't even recall any times that half of them have even posted in reply to me. I just see them trashing other users consistently, so I placed them on ignore.

I could actually verify the negativity of some of these users, like BoredMormon & Ryiah. When it comes to the others, it's simply a matter of no longer wanting to hear them talking. For example one of the four isn't a mean person by any means; just someone I don't want to listen to. Not because they disagree with me, but just because I don't want to hear them talking about [a topic] for the Nth time.

It also makes sense that you would love all four of those users. You were the fifth user on my ignore list because you are so similar to them. However I removed you from ignore because you made some really good points when disagreeing with me a few times. This proves quite the opposite of what you claim. This actually proves I encourage users to disagree with me. I'm fine with it.

Like I said... I do not ignore people because they disagree with me or because I dislike them. I do it because they either do not contribute much value, contribute a negative value, or because I simply don't want to listen to them anymore. I don't dislike the non-mean ones (which are half of them), I just experience a better environment by ignoring them. This is why it's perfectly fine for all four of them to ignore Arrowx. Especially if they're going to whine about him constantly & go into his threads to attack him as a person.

I find it strange that this is even being discussed too. This is my opinion, which I am fully entitled to. You seem offended that I ignore those you are very chummy with, so you feel the need to accuse me of living in an echo chamber? Such nonsense. I enjoy disagreement & arguments. What I do not enjoy are trolls. Which pretty much describes the majority of this thread.

Btw the only reason I even mentioned them by name is because I had to, in order to tell them to simply ignore Arrowx. I realize now this was a mistake, since it got their BFF upset enough to feel the need to come in & defend them.

The fact I am even posting all of this is quite embarrassing. I should just place you on ignore for inciting needless drama. This entire thread is nothing but needless drama. Not because of Arrowx, but because of the users who responded.

The worst part of all of your perspective is that you think I should unignore people who cause me to have a very negative experience without any positive gains. That somehow I am doing myself a disservice by enjoying my forum experience significantly more without them around. These users don't contribute real value to discussion often enough to justify the negativity they cause in other's experience. I assure you, I am not at any loss for ignoring them. If they were to cease to post on the forums, we would all be fine.

 

Since angrypenguin seems insistent to try to paint 'using the ignore feature' as a bad idea... I will just say this:

I encourage users to disagree with me. I will in no way ignore you for this. The only thing I ignore users for is them being negative towards other users.

See my signature about "Don't hate on newbies". My reputation in this community goes a long way to show I only have a problem with one type of user: the anti-newbie type. The unfriendly forum regulars are the only people I have an issue with. I firmly believe that if those few were to leave, it would be better for the community as a whole.

 

Wait. Since when is disagreeing with someone attacking them personally? I've actually tried to go out of my way to avoid personal attacks so the only thing I can think of is that either: (A) I slipped up and let it happen without realizing it, or (B) you're reading into my posts in a way that was never intended and doesn't exist.

 

This right here is the bit I disagree with.

If you think there's no value in any of their posts then it's because that's how you choose to interpret it. That's why I think it's your loss.

Also... yes, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm also entitled to mine. You chose to post your opinion about how negative you think those people are. I disagreed with that (which you encourage me to do) and posted my opinion to the contrary. And it's on topic. Why is that a problem?

 

Plus one for the ignore feature greasing the social wheels of the forum. Its one of the better features we have. Some people just rub each other the wrong way, and keeping them separate just makes everyone's lives better. Its actually interesting that your ignore list is completely different to mine. But the people on it are there for the same sorts of reasons.

One of the things I don't like about the ignore feature is that it also ignores threads that they create. Which means ignoring a set of content posted by the people I do want to listen to. So for example if I'd had arowx on ignore, I wouldn't have seen any of the content in this thread. Including this discussion on the ignore feature. Since so much of the general discussion ends up being spin off convos from arowx threads, ignoring him means ignoring much of general discussion.

Ironically I can't ignore arowx because he creates too many threads.

For me its simply about avoiding frustration. There are some people, through no fault of anyone, who I simply struggle to communicate well with. Whenever we interact, we end up in pages of pointless arguments. I'd love to have the discipline to not do this, but since I don't, the ignore function is useful.

 

Fortunately the alternating background color on the thread lists is a good way to determine when a thread is hidden as it will hide the thread but not alter the colors leaving you with either dark and dark or light and light when it should be one following the other.

Same. This is precisely why I started using the ignore feature and why I need to learn not to click "Show Ignored Content".

 

In your very first post, you directly insulted him by calling him insane.

Accused his ability to create threads as "going downhill"

Pompously decided to "Fix" his posts, as well as mine, even though we're fully capable of writing our own posts & conveying the meaning we intend.

----------------------------------------

And overall the negativity in this thread is simply childish.
All created by the very users I just happen to have on ignore?
Not a coincidence.​

Although I have 4 users on ignore, I can attest to the fact that the only two I actually dislike as persons are BoredMormon & Ryiah. I really, really dislike those two because of how toxic they are to this community. They are just nasty people. It would be great if they were to leave entirely. Everyone else on the forums is just a normal person on the internet.

 

I honestly had never noticed that before. Where my PC sits there is enough sunlight to make the colour difference virtually invisible. I typically only notice an ignored thread when the page seems shorter then normal.

It would be nice if a user could be ignored without ignoring the rest of the threads they create.

 

Quoting (or is it picturing?) Albert Einstein was my attempt to reinforce my point that repeating old topics wasn't going to change the results he saw from them.

Correction, his ability to find new topics. Since you're a relatively new member to this community you may not have been here for some of his earlier topics. He's starting to repeat them, and while some of them may now be relevant due to changes over the years, artificial intelligence is not one of them.

 

That's why I think it's such a great feature that we should all use. And why I think it's better for people to just ignore Arrowx rather than hate on him.

We can all co-exist perfectly fine, and it's all good because we can choose to ignore others.

That's a good point, and I agree it would be a much better feature if we had this option.

IMO the best feature would be the following:

• When an ignored user creates a new thread, the forum displays a randomly generated name, but keeps all OP content.
• All of the OP (ignored user's) posts will continue to be invisible.
• Clicking "Show Ignored Content" will result in the OP being displayed correctly along with all the OP's posts.

And going even further...

• An alternative / addition to the "Ignore Feature" which is "Obfuscate Ignore" or something, which randomly generates usernames & avatars for all posts from ignored users. You never know who posted what, but you still get to read all of it. Less personal feelings getting in the way maybe?
• An alternative feature for the ENTIRE FORUM - masking of usernames. All usernames, without any list, are obfuscated. All appear as "Anonymous" no matter who posts. This could be an option for those who want to try to remove all their bias for a single day. Would be interesting feature that you can temporarily toggle on. (Turns off by default next time you visit the forum).

We are probably exactly the same in this regard.

A great post all around. This post almost made me want to take back what I said about you, hahahha!

 

Answer to yourself right now - Could you have been nicer in your reply? Could you have conveyed the same idea without resorting to offensive words like "You are Insane!" or "You are going downhill!"?

The answer is yes, you could have. Just like I could have with you. But neither of us did. I didn't try to be nice because I really just plain don't like you. You didn't try to be nice because you wanted to offend Arrowx. Let's not pretend we are being nice when we aren't. You're only fooling yourself if you try.

If you aren't able to understand how you could have been less insulting & more respectful of Arrowx in this response, then you are more childish than I originally thought.

 

Remember what may have been insulting in your opinion may not have been insulting to someone else. If he was insulted he's free to speak up and I'll apologize, yet he's never responded in a way that indicates he's offended.

Right, I've noticed. You know what though? I'm not at all insulted or offended by it.

 

Ah, and here it is. The reality of Ryiah.

You absolutely do not actually read what anyone says. If you did, you would have read the very first line of my first post:

However you responded as if you had read. You always do - even claiming in other threads you "finally read what you admitted to not reading" when you insulted a user by accusing him of writing click bait, followed immediately by admitting you hadn't even read the article.

There is no other proof needed to out you as a confirmed troll.

• You don't seem to read anything you reply to (poorly skim at best)
• but insist on being negative when you do reply (to what you didn't read)
• You needlessly insult, even if sometimes you think it's subtle. (It's not. It's obvious.)
• You are very negative towards new users & people like Arrowx.
• You do not bring as many constructive comments to this forum as you do negative. (In fact, I don't see ANY value in any of your post history.)

 

This I like. Perhaps put it up as a suggestion in the 'forum' forum.

I've been on forums where anonymous posting was allowed. It wasn't something I'd like to repeat. Anonymous posting allowed and encouraged normally nice people to get behind an anonymous post and get nasty. At least if you have an identity to maintain, you tend to stay with posting things you would be happy with others associating with you.

For me its not the personal feelings. In my time across the forums, there has only been one user I've had a personal issue with. Its not a story I care to repeat. A few users have strange names or unsettling profile pictures, but that's not really an issue.

Its more of a style thing. There are some posts that get my hackles up. And my hackles would still be raised by the post even if you entirely hid who posted it.

 

I just have a difficult time remember paragraph after paragraph, wall after wall of text. Learning to condense your comments down wouldn't hurt any. Monstrous images don't help either.

 

Do you have Asperger's Syndrome? If so, that would make sense & I apologize.

It seems you truly do not grasp that if you directly state someone is insane, in a non-joking context, that is offensive. It's irrelevant if they are actually offended or not... you are being an asshat... end of story.

You either

1. Truly have a hard time understanding what is going on socially (Asperger's)
2. You do know, fully aware you're being an asshat, and you're simply trolling me now or rationalizing your trolling of Arrowx.

I am pretty confident it's the latter. You are truly a trash user & a boil on the ass of this community.

 

Oh I must have not conveyed my idea accurately.

We don't become anonymous. It's just a feature where you activate it, and it makes everyone anonymous to ONLY your eyes. At any point you can turn it off (or click the anonymous Name link) and it will take you to the correct, public, user profile.

 

Good question. My parents have said I showed the symptoms of it when I was younger, but I was never diagnosed with anything more than an anxiety disorder (I do worry excessively at times) due to a lack of understanding of autism in general back in those days (I'm in my mid-30s).