Unity 3.51: still in beta with these bugs

Discussion in 'Developer Preview' started by _rem, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    Hello !
    last post on the problems encountered with Unity3D 3.5 :
    http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/123846-Unity-3.5-the-disappointment-!-Solved

    I work on two PCs, one with 3.42 and another now to test 3.51.
    Bugs reported in version 3.5 are still present in version 3.51 :
    1. unity with projector make the drawcalls go crazy.
    2. Decrease in performance from 40 to 50% with the engine.
    3. Unity Editor consumes three times more RAM?
    4. Display bugs with random "Nighttime Water" (Refract transparency)
    I am angry, 4 months to wait for nothing, but what happens with the development of Unity3D ?

    excuse my english...

    [​IMG]
    _
    [​IMG]
  2. jlevel

    jlevel New Member

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    Totally agree.

    For this reason I leave developing my current game. I'm tired of wasting months being a beta-tester of a product which I paid and have to be stable.

    Really it's a shame. For sure I will not upgrade to Unity 4 and I will not recommend this engine to anyone if these critical issues are not solved.

    I'm feeling cheated.
  3. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow Member

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    Did you submit your scene in a bug report?
  4. jlevel

    jlevel New Member

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    I did, my case is under review on 3.5.1 again. No solution yet since 3.5 was launched, so 3.5.1 doesn't fix nothing for me.
  5. Tiles

    Tiles Member

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    For me it has. My drawcalls are back to normal with 3.51. Between 3.42 and 3.50 the number of drawcalls increased by factor 3. Now i have the same drawcall count in 3.42 and 3.51. Good thing. So it`s not that nothing has changed. Seems that you have found another bug that causes high drawcalls when upgrading. Fingers crossed that the Unity staff finds the cause fast.
  6. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow Member

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    A good plan is to update your bug report to say that it still happens in 3.5.1.
  7. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    ;)
    you have some problems understanding :
    he said : "my case is under review on 3.5.1 again" :cool:
  8. Dambusters

    Dambusters New Member

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    Just for reference, my scenes are quite similar to the ones you show as they use terrain, fog and a couple of projectors and 3.51 is showing drawcalls around half of what I was seeing in 3.5 - back to 3.42 levels for me too. I'm not using the nightime water though - I was wondering if it was that causing your problems?
  9. holyjewsus

    holyjewsus Member

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    did you guys read that note regarding the way realtime lights work in 3.5?
    Sorry if you already have.
  10. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    If I delete "Nighttime Water", drawcalls are still 4 times higher than normal !
  11. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    all my lights are on "Auto" mode and filtered by level !
  12. jlevel

    jlevel New Member

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    I'm using lightmapping, and that's the cause making the game completely crash (literally) on mobile, this wouldn't happen on 3.4.2.

    For performance issues I'm still with poor performance compared to 3.4.2.

    I strongly believe 3.5 version was a rush to present at GDC. Users we aren't dumb, I don't have any problem if they release 3.5 as beta, but if they mark as stable to download and crash all my work then it's when I'm angry.
  13. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis Member

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    Hi,
    IMHO the number draw calls is not a good indicator of performance.
    Perhaps you should rely on measuring mean frame time on target platform instead.
    Also, make sure you follow the upgrade guide.
    I try to accomodate to the new version as well, I think it is one of the tradeoffs people should be prepared for.
    -Ippokratis
  14. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    Unity Plugin version : 3.4.2f2 Unity Engine version : 3.4.2f2
    fullscreen frameRate average : 200 fps
    the same scene update...
    Unity Plugin version : 3.5.2f2 Unity Engine version : 3.5.2f2
    fullscreen frameRate average : <50 fps

    it's been over eight years that I work with Unity, Director3D, Virtools and I know what I mean. This version is still not operational and I find this unacceptable.
  15. taumel

    taumel New Member

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    I haven't found time to try out the new version yet but looking at how short the list of fixes is, i think it's safe to assume that this is more a release to get some of the fixes out instead of providing a "now everything is alright" release, if that ever happens, and a certain percentage of useres certainly benefit from this.

    But being buggy to a certain degree somehow is part of the Unity experience as well. I never had a Unity version which didn't cause issues, sometimes you can work around, sometimes it's a show stopper. It's highly annoying but it's part of the game.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  16. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis Member

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    1,090
    Hi,
    I hope I did not sound like " hey dude, you do not know what you are saying" :) Not my intention, really.
    I just think ( and I guess you agree ) that average frame time on target platform is a better metric to measure performance.

    The way Unity changed lightmaps and lighting behavior affects me badly too, I have to review a lot of code to find out how to fix lightmap support for Batching Tools. To me, it is simply a choice of adapting or rejecting the new version ( and Unity development overall ) and I choose to adapt.

    In your case, perhaps the main problem lies in the way you treat light. I notice the difference in the number of vertices tris and draw calls, which is usually caused by lighting. Re-disributing objects in layers and having lights to affect only certain layers could help. Also, I had positive experiences from Unity QA department so far, perhaps they can help you too ( yeah, the "fill a bug report" suggestion again :) ).

    [EDIT]"it's part of the game" Exactly my thoughts.

    I hope you find the suggestions useful, best luck with your project,
    -Ippokratis
  17. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss Member

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    _rem, I noticed, your triangles and vertices count in v3.50 are 4 times that of 3.4.2 version.

    v3.42 : Tris : 492.8k Verts : 286.5k
    v3.50 : Tris : 113.5k Verts : 69.9k

    Maybe it has something to do with it?
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  18. n0mad

    n0mad Member

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    This is because of lights hitting lightmaps since 3.5.
  19. rea

    rea Member

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    Huh? is that increasing the triangle count?
  20. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis Member

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    1,090
    Say you have 1 cube. For each light that affects that cube, the cube is rendered again, hence the increase in draw calls, vertices and tris. I.e. 1 cube and 4 lights = 5 cubes.
  21. rextr09

    rextr09 Member

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    Are you sure? I think it's still 1 cube but with 5 draw calls.
  22. n0mad

    n0mad Member

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    verts and tris are effectively multiplied by the number of lights hitting the object, 100% sure.
  23. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    Excuse me Ippokratis, I'm a little exasperated.
    I spent several days trying to solve these problems with the 3.5 and I thought that version 3.51, will solve all problems.
    I use the Projectors, to create footprints and the shadow of the character, instead of generating 4 drawcalls by Projector (terrain with 4 textures) 3.50 and 3.51 generate over 60 drawcalls per Projector !
    If I deactivated all the projectors drawcalls are identical with the version 3.42, but there are still performance problems in the Editor and webplayer.
    I work with PCs rather old, with versions 3.5x, they are on their knees. XP says: Unity uses 150 mo but in reality it consumes between 600 and 700 mo. Unity 3.42 consumes only 150 mo.
    I do not understand anything, I think if the guys of unity not find me a solution, Unity is over for me, I will not upgrade to Unity 4 !
    :(
  24. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis Member

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    1,090
    Hi,
    In my opinion discussing about the problem will help you to sort it out.
    Projectors are little beasts on their own, I never really liked them ( or shadows, or photorealism ) hence I never found my self having troubles with them :p

    As Aras once said :
    Joachim recently stated :

    Unity 3.5.1 Fixes section : Graphics: Fixed projector culling so it only renders objects inside projector.

    Alternatives :
    This guy offers an alternative for shadows, have not tried it though.
    Decals are also available ( many people have something bad to say about this package, I tried the free version and I am amazed on how clever these guys are and how good it works once I RTFM ).
  25. Joachim_Ante

    Joachim_Ante Unity Technologies

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    3,522
    Do you have a case number for the bug you submitted on the performance regression, that includes a sample project where I can reproduce the issue?

    I'd like to take a look at it.
  26. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    Thank you for your interest in my problems, you will find explanations and links on webplayers.
    IF you think you need the my project folder, ask me here!

    Case 458215
  27. antenna tree

    antenna tree Moderator

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    5,300
    Submitting a sample project that reproduces the issue is always what we prefer to have so please add it to your bug report.
  28. BigBulle

    BigBulle New Member

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    Yes but it takes time and it is really boring to do in a production process...
  29. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis Member

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    1,090
    Hi,
    Another possible alternative is to give access to svn ( after prior arrangement with Unity ), for huge projects.
    Thing is it is not possible to spot errors without the source. It takes time, is really boring but eventually helps you and rest of Unity community.
    -Ippokratis
  30. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    Hello,
    I decided to create a new project and re-import all my "assets" one by one. After several hours fighting with broken links, "levels", "Tags", hardlinks between scripts and "gameobject", scripts and scripts, remake "ligthmaps" ... for short:
    - Everything works perfectly, no "dracalls" crazy, no display problem with "the prefab Nighttime Water", great! the same performance as version 3.42.
    I decided to apply "Occlusion Culling" on my "terrain" and on elements of decor, I check with "visualization" everything is OK, I "Bake".
    And there, all problems begin! "dracalls" crazy, refraction of "prefab Nighttime Water" blinks, the framerate collapses ...
    I delete data "Occlusion Culling" and "Occlusion Area" and everything returns to normal, I create a "webplayer" the same performance as version 3.42.
    - "Occlusion Culling" not work with 3.51 (it did not work, also with 3.42 but silently)
    I'll edit my bug report with a simplified project, (I found another strange big bug not easy to reproduce!)
    thank you for the support. ;)
  31. l0cke

    l0cke Member

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    Unity 3.5.1:
    -When turning on text asset serialization it works for 1/2 hour (makes sense, big project) and then out of memory crash.
    -Turning on meta files for external VCS out of memory crash (same on 3.4.2 and lower).
    -Switching between complex scenes (especialy after play) = our of memory crash (new on 3.5)

    There is HUGE problem related to work with big project (lots of files).

    -Frustrum culling does not work properly, for example looking to the ground in the middle of the city makes 6k drawcalls (since unity 3.0), looking on the empty terrain from the city makes same drawcalls like looking on the whole city, etc....tested on other engine and NO problem there.

    -occlusion culling finally does not crash during baking, but it does not work properly. Even with very small cubes it does not occlude almost anything (no matter what setup). For example looking to the big wall still renders whole city behind wall (occlussion areas seems precounted OK - before wall, after wall).
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2012
  32. BigBulle

    BigBulle New Member

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    I'm not sure to understand what you propose. Is it to move Unity to a free open source project?
    Personally I start to be really tired to create bug reports for version 3.5 and/or version 3.4.2 to prove this or that to the unity support.

    I would really prefer to pay more and to get a stable product. Maybe we have chosen the wrong product for this.
  33. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis Member

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    1,090
    Hi,
    Not actually. I mention another possibility of sharing the project, with Unity ( not everybody ), after a prior arrangement with them, which might be helpful in huge projects. I.e imagine you have a 5Gb project you wish to send to Unity. In this case, the above scenario makes it easier. This approach was mentioned by Metron in another thread.
    I hope it is more clear now,
    -Ippokratis.
  34. jlevel

    jlevel New Member

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    I understand your explanation, but again, my work isn't being a beta-tester of a product which I paid more than $2000 before and it's closed-source.

    I'm the client which I adquired this product, I'm not the engineer developing it. Maybe sounds a little hard, but it's the reality.

    Do you really want improvements from users community? Ok, then make it free and open-source. But don't expect this behaviour will be on a commercial and closed-source product.

    I'm tired of send bug reports, some of they are ignored because I didn't attach the full project. Unacceptable.

    I have to report a bug, but wait, I can't query the bug tracker, maybe I'm just losing time reporting because I'm just creating a duplicate case. Unacceptable.

    If I decided spend this money it's because I trusted on a robust product, what's happened is they released a new "stable" version when really is a beta version.

    Furthermore, this "stable" version doesn't allow regression to your project because they are converting the full project to 3.5.

    Really, not allowing regression to a previous version, in technology terms, is unacceptable and a suicide.

    Errors caused by memory leaks on a commercial product is unacceptable too, and should be fixed as soon as posible with highest priority.

    This last maybe is the most important and more critical.
  35. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis Member

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    1,090
    Hi,
    jlevel :

    I assume that you are responding to Unity, not to me personally. I am a client, much like you. I choose to have a proactive approach and it is clear that everybody makes its choices as he/she wishes. Error reporting is beneficial for me as a customer, so I endorse and suggest it to others. To me, the ability to send error reports with no additional cost is an advantage.

    I sincerely sympathize you and anybody who have spend money, time and passion on a project. Before I purchased Unity I made a simple question to myself : What I get now, worth it ? Not what this tool might evolve to. What I get now. So I evaluated the product ( Iphone Basic, after owning Unity Basic ) again and again. At the end, the answer was yes, so I bought it. I do not suggest that everyone should act in the same way, people are different and differences make life interesting. But you can try the product, you can see if it fits your needs, before you buy it.

    Another thing is, if someone has a vision and believes that Unity cannot support it, why stay ? Why waiting until this game engine evolves ? Unity costs little - 2000$ are peanuts compared to what costs to produce a game. It is not so difficult to migrate to another game engine or create a new one.

    Also this update is free. I am not suggesting that since it is free it is ok not to be "robust" as you say. But it is free. You have not paid for it. You can keep on developing on a previous robust version if you wish and keep a backup of your project ( I found out the hard way too, like you ).

    In any case, I just wanted to share my point of view. I really cannot "get in your shoes". I understand that from your point of view, I might be wrong. It is ok. I just hope that the issues with the current update will resolve in a nice way.

    Kind regards,
    -Ippokratis
  36. jlevel

    jlevel New Member

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    Hello Ippokratis,

    of course I'm responding to Unity, nothing personal here.

    On commercial product is a must to provide support. Yes, 3.x update is free, but what happen if you buy Unity 3.51 Pro? You can't sell something and if it's broken you can't wash your hands. That makes no sense.

    Without Pro you can't test occlussion culling, and it's one of the broken things. When you really see this issues it's on a big project, and Pro demo version has expired.

    Make a 3D engine from scratch only a standalone developer?? I'm sorry, I'm not superman. If develop a game for an indie takes a lot of time and it's hard, then add this handicap. I don't think so, specially if you target mobile market.

    Unity have done a great job in overall, to improve it there is a need to criticism.

    Anyway, I'm sure Unity will fix these things, I'm not saying the opposite, just I'm saying what I think they need to improve urgently.
  37. l0cke

    l0cke Member

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    Exactly. I agree with each point. Our team has same experience and we have some opinion.
  38. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    Joachim Ante, aNTeNNa trEE : not comment on my observations ? but may be you already knew that "occlusion culling" does not work and a performance penalty?
    Otherwise have your views on this issue, before I volunteered to participate your Debug application(working on a simplified project with the bug report) will be welcome !
    cordially
  39. angel_m

    angel_m Member

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    847
    I think Unity needs to stop adding new features to the engine and fix the basis.
    I understand the whole engine system is very complex and with the big changes introduced in 3.5 version, the priority must be consolidate it as a robust product.
  40. BigBulle

    BigBulle New Member

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  41. droderick

    droderick Member

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    i too agree with each point!
  42. rextr09

    rextr09 Member

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    Totally agree!, No more new features please until it's robust enough.
  43. Framer

    Framer New Member

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    Hi.
    After we migrate to Unity3.5, in our big project, we have the same problem with performance .
    And we post a ticket to unity support and bug to unity bugtracker.
    We lost a half fps in our project.
    We send sample project that show performance differences between Unity 3.4. and 3.5, to unity.
  44. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    Up ? :cool:
  45. virror

    virror Member

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    +1
  46. antenna tree

    antenna tree Moderator

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    No, we certainly wouldn't release a feature that we knew to be broken. All the tests I've done with 3.5's Occlusion Culling have worked quite well. So getting bug reports with attached projects that reproduce a bug is usually the only way we can track down these corner cases and fix them.
  47. _rem

    _rem New Member

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    OK ! thank you for the replies, I'll create a new bug report with a test project. I 'll give here, my new "case number".
    I don't know edit the old case number. :(
  48. l0cke

    l0cke Member

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    Hmm, Umbra oclussion was not working since early Beta 3.0 (cca 2 years). Lots of beta testers reported it in 3.0 beta (!!!) and you made release anyway. Everybody here knows, that it was totally unusable for 19 months. I dont know which tests you made, but we werent able to get it working even on most basic things (like majority of people here).
    Even now it does not work properly (it does not crash anymore during baking, but still problems - it does not turn off objects which should). In beta 3.5 testers were reporting problems too and it stayed ignored and was released....

    Have you ever worked in other company than Unity? Tracking bugs without customer data is how rest of the world does it. Actually asking for client data due to bug fixing is considered amateurism of worst kind. Indeed you can find and track bug without client data. Indeed it is more effort, but absolutely possible.
    But I understand, that it is far more comfortable to say "send us your data" and than discard bug as "not possible to replicate".

    You are speaking about corner cases, but very often bug is replicable very easily (and in asbolutely basic function), but still answer "send us your project".
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012
  49. jlevel

    jlevel New Member

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    100% agree
  50. Tiles

    Tiles Member

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    An example project to reproduce the bug speeds up things most of the times. So it`s not a bad think to ask for it in general. But it is very bad to reject a bug report just because there is no project to reproduce attached. And that`s usual it seems.

    I have a UI bug here that is NOT reproduceable with a project. I know that it will not being investigated when there is no attachment. But it doesn`t make any sense to attach an empty project neither. And so i don`t report it. That easy.

    I have another bug. My project folder has reached the size of 1 Gig now. Ever waited for 1 gig to upload to an FTP? I am just an amateur, but even i miss the time to wait several hours before i can use my pc again. Especially when i do this more often. I could of course reduce the filesize to something smaller, to reduce the problem to just the involved objects. Which would mean to spend another day of work to throw out everything unneeded ... . And so i don`t report it. That easy.

    Fact is, the current way to deal with bugs produces lots of unsatisfied and unhappy users. Maybe it`s time to rethink the strategy.