RageSpline - Create smooth 2D graphics inside Unity Editor - RELEASED

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by keely, Apr 23, 2011.

  1. Brady

    Brady

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    I didn't see if the issue about objects getting "stuck" was fully resolved earlier, but in my experience, a common cause of this with fast-moving objects results from collider thickness. Thicker colliders result in much more reliable collisions. Now I realize adjustable collider thickness was mentioned earlier as more of an aesthetic concern, but I just wanted to toss in my $0.02 with regard to this also being a practical physics concern as well.
     
  2. keely

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    Found this from t3h interwebz.
     
  3. keely

    keely

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    It's a bit hard to get answers at scripting subforum sometimes.

    Since some of the middleware gods are presumably reading this thread, do you have any insight on this problem?
     
  4. Nekoyoubi

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    Thanks for the mention!

    Oh, and about my initial idea to fix the axis mapping, it was all fun and games until I saw what it did to collider generation. They all flattened. ;) So I just gave up on the idea until later when we see where it goes.

    So yeah, as I think you've already read, I think you did a great job here and I look forward to seeing how far this goes. Thanks again!
     
  5. alex.loren

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    I am currently experiencing an issue that I would possible contribute to not having adjustable, or I should say thick enough, colliders. I posted in the support forum hoping to find a work around in another one, there is an image attached showing the issue, you can find the thread here. So Keely, I know that you have your hands busy with multiple other things, but as mentioned above by Brady and earlier in the thread, if adjustable thickness of colliders could work itself in to a future release, that would be outstanding!
     
  6. Acumen

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    1) I've been following this thing for quite a while now, I'm just not the best person at understanding the techy talk :)
    Does the mentioned "Texturing support" mean we could/can do stuff like the following with RageSpline ? Cause I think I mostly saw gradient/flat colored work examples so far.

    http://indiesuperstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/SmuggleTruck_04_babies-550x412.jpg
    http://de.playstation.com/media/le27ZGJW/AngryBirds_Hero.JPG
    http://www.appsundco.de/uploads/tx_appreview/Tiny_Wings_2_s.jpg

    2) What interests me even more, considering we could realize stuff like that - would it be performant for Iphone games ? I believe to remember you mentioned performance is "alright", but that's quite generic :D
    Since using this on scenes with a bit more painted detail, I guess this could be quite a hit to the polycount of scenes.

    3) What about stuff like smuggle truck or tiny wings, where you move through levels, similar to your ragecar game. How can this be done nicely, considering there won't be any visible gaps/holes in the terrain/ground as in your examples, but a continuous mesh throught a long distance.
    Any possibility of "cutting/slicing" through the splines, so it's not loaded on a 1billion unit long piece, but chunked about into smaller portions ?

    4) Also I was wondering, there is some flickering/noise going on around the edges in the Ragecube Webplayer. Is this just within the nature of using this method or has it something to do with compression/webplayer usage in general ?
    It's just as soon as I started to notice this grain effect, I just can't take my eyes of it, it's kinda letdown for me :/

    5) Do you plan to use this for a future game project of yours to a full extent ? I mean, the examples in here are quite nice to look, but I'd love to see this on a bigger scale, to get to know some more about the toolset and generally get a better feel of the tool.
    Or do you know of projects using this already in their pipeline. Guess you would have mentioned this in here, though :eek:

    These are just some theoretical questions I'm asking myself before going any further :D
     
  7. alex.loren

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    Acumen, I can't speak for everything you have posted here, but I can try and help you a bit with your answers for the time being.

    1. On my current endeavor with RageSpline, almost all of my objects are textured and through what I have seen and used of it, you shouldn't have any issues with having something similar to the images you showed as example. Though, trying to texture something as like the truck may get tricky.

    2. I am currently using RageSpline with plans to publish to both iPhone and Android. One thing that I have done to help with keeping the poly count way down from the spline built objects, is that after I have the level mapped out and in a finished state, all of the extra detail objects that I have get saved as a texture, and placed into a few texture atlases. Then the textures are applied, and sorted, to a billboard object made in Maya. Small tricks such as this help to keep the performance up on the mobile devices I have found.

    3. Not positive with this one, maybe we slice tool could come in the future?

    4. I have slightly noticed this as well, but I can say that in all of my tests with my current RageSpline project, I have yet to see any of this.

    5. This, will have to wait for the powers that be, Mr. Keely, to answer :)
     
  8. keely

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    I try to answer without the techy jargon, but I would like to point out one thing. Sort of a disclaimer if you may.

    It's very slippery slope for a developer to answer questions like "Can I do Tiny Wings?". The subject is so broad and complicated, that either you give short and inaccurate answer, or too long and accurate one. Neither of the options feel very optimal.

    However, while you're questions are much more specific than "Can I do Tiny Wings?", Some of them are still very hard to answer precisely without hours of research and 1000 words.

    That said, I'm going to answer them in a short form, but with certain inaccuracy.

    The current texture support is limited to what you might call "linear". It's like projecting an image with a video projector on to an object.

    In the Smuggle Truck image, you could do the yellow sand part. You could also do the bigger ground texturing. However, the smaller rocks, which follow the curvature of the level, isn't doable with current RageSpline.

    The Angry Birds image is actually quite doable, since the ground is flat. All the shapes are doable imo, but I would actually do everything in this image with textures, except the actual birds. This is not a very good example image though, because it's so flat.

    Tiny Wings has a lot of little things, but one thing I have to say is that while RageSpline has gradient support, that too is "linear" like the texturing. You can't currently have exactly that type of gradient that follows the curves. You can do the trees though.

    Sure, if you have loads and loads of shapes, the frame rate is going to plummet with iPhone. I can admit that I haven't had time to really properly test it. The only way to REALLY test performance is to actually make an actual game. Both of my games RageCube and RageCar run 60fps on an 3GS iPhone, but like you said, they are simple.

    One thing I have to mention though. If you have very little detail like let's say the eyes, nose and wings of the Tiny Wing character, you can really take down the vertcount in those RageSpline objects (it's adjustable). There's no point to use 500 verts to something that is in 10x10 pixel size. This way, keeping the detail per pixel ratio consistent, you get a lot more bang for your buck.

    Also the planned "render to sprite" -feature, which is still very early stages and I can't really promise anything about it, would take any RageSpline object down to 2 polys.

    The current version isn't designed to do big continuous terrains. It was kind of foolish for me to do the example game like RageCar because of that, but what's done is done ;).

    I have to admit, I really don't know what would be the best approach to support a very long mesh like that in the future versions. Maybe generating multiple meshes from single RageSpline like you suggested is the way to go.

    This is a new one for me. The way I do anti-aliasing with RageSpline is that I make a narrow stroke around the object that is partially transparent. You can adjust the width of this stroke freely. Maybe there's a certain pixelsize/aa-width -ratio that causes some artifacts. I have to be honest, I just can't see it in the RageCube. Maybe i'm in denial. Do you have a smooth frame rate with it? Anyone else having similar experience? Do you have some kind of exotic hardware?

    Well, in theory I'm doing the RageCube, but there's now so much stuff with this product that I don't think I have any time for it for the next few months. I think I'm going to do a new mini-example-game to showcase the new features, but we'll see.
     
  9. prime31

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    @keely, quick question: will inner borders with texture support be coming in the next update? Like this:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. keely

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    Borders (or outline as I call them in the tool) will have texture support.

    Offsetting the outline is a little iffy like I described on the earlier post about spline offsets, but I guess it's doable. Atleast it's on my mental todo-list.

    btw. I'm really starting to consider the option, that I'll do small incremental updates instead. That might skew everything I have said so far about "the next update".
     
  11. prime31

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    Smaller, incremental updates would be superb. You've got my vote for it.
     
  12. Acumen

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    @alex.loren: thanks for taking the time to come up with all of these answers. I'd be quite interested to get to know your secret project :D
    Hope you'll share some information on that soon !

    @keely: same thank yous apply to you, as usual for taking the time to answer each and every nitpick !

    Yeh, these were just the most prominent examples I could think of as an outsider ^^
    Not planning to do any of these kind of games in the future. It was more the really big terrain issue that interested me. But I'm sure solutions can be found on this issue :)

    So basically I can assign a texture (that can tile) and it will be applied flat.
    It won't follow the actual spline in any way ? Just be tiled in every direction ?

    I wasn't aiming to do everything within ragespline, I figure using alternative methods for characters and whatnot would make much more sense, combined with the upcoming rendertotexture-approach.
    I was mainly interested in the ground creation perse. Got all questions answered on that.

    Concerning the noise on the outlines. Yeh, it's kinda showing when there's slow movement involved. Lots of noisy stuff going on, looks like some ants wobbling around the outline *exaggerating*
    Was just wondering where that came from, cause theoretically since this seems a solid object this stuff shouldn't appear, from my extremely dilettantish "knowledge".
    Frame rate is just fine. No exotic hardware as far as I'm concernced. Being on my gf's computer all the time :D

    I got one more question. There's no real documentation as of yet, and I wouldn't call Prime31 the average user at all ;)
    So I'm wondering, since I always have horrible experiences with the camera system in Unity. Say I purchase and "install" your tool, is it possibly for me to work in it without experiencing the same camera nightmare over and over again ? Like will it change the perspective accordingly, so I can not mess it all up again and just see what I can see on your videos ? Or what shall I expect when installing this on a pretty untouched Unity environment ? Some time to set all the cameras/views up ? Just start and be happy ?
     
  13. prime31

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    Is anyone else having some wonky physics going on due to the scale of a RageSpline being pretty massive? I haven't had a spare minute to dig through the source yet so I'm not 100% where the issue lies but there is definitely appears to be some scale inconsistencies. A unit cube looks like an atom next to a RageSpline...
     
  14. keely

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    Do you mean that the original prefabs are too large?

    I made all the defaults in such a way, that they would make sense in default orthographic camera size which is 100. Maybe that was a bad idea.

    I think (and hope) that everything besides the width of the box colliders is adjustable, so by adjusting stuff like outline width, anti-aliasing width, etc. you'd get the scale you need.
     
  15. keely

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    I don't think RageSpline is going to magically fix the Unity's camera system. I made everything in my power to make it easier, but it's not much. You still probably have to adjust cameras settings. At the end of the day, RageSpline is just an extension to create smooth shapes.

    You can rotate it, scale it and set the offset, but that's it.
     
  16. keely

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    Are you seeing this behavior or the RageCar too?
     
  17. Acumen

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    Yes, I do.
    Maybe it's because these items consist of many small actual objects that move around. Would make sense in my world at least. Compared to a single flat object alpha textured object being rendered, the car consists of many triangles that are rendered upon/underneath each other.
    But I guess in a real game environment you wouldn't use the main character like you did in the examples. For testing stuff it's totally fine I think. Good to know something like that happens, though, I guess.
    No major flaw, I'd say :)
     
  18. keely

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    I think I know what you are talking about now. It's one of those things that you don't see, but after someone points it out, you can't unsee.

    The problem goes away once you set the antialiasing-width bigger. The shapes get slightly blurrier, though. It only happens when there is a big difference between contrast like black vs. white.

    It's much better on the iPhone screen where pixelsize is smaller.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2011
  19. Acumen

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    Yup, totally agree on all your points, I'm just glad you could finally see what I mean ;)
     
  20. keely

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    Could you find some game screenshot, which shows something similar in action? I'm just trying to get a better feel what kind of implementation you're after.
     
  21. ibyte

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    Maybe this was obvious to everyone else but but it kind of caught me off guard when I found out you can do physics "inside" RageSpline objects.For example move the ragecar down inside of the first rock and adjust the camera so you can still see it. Then press play. You won't go far but you'll see what i mean. :)

    iByte
     
  22. keely

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    [​IMG]

    Finally an actual development screenshot. Outline texturing is coming together.

    Disclaimer: The image is NOT from the current version of RageSpline in the Asset Store.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2011
  23. vpdp_pc

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    Have you see this: http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/86...ditor-RELEASED?p=564403&viewfull=1#post564403
     
  24. alex.loren

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    I want to apologize p6r, it could take a bit longer then first anticipated to provide the example, as my time programming has just been cut back. Through my classes and externship, it was announced that there were going to be three residency positions were going to be opening up, so the majority of my time has moved towards competing for one of those spots. I will still be working towards providing a sample, it is just going to be slightly delayed.

    Keely, I am really excited to see the work towards providing texturable outlines to all of the users of RageSpline. Keep up the fantastic work sir!
     
  25. p6r

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    Don't worry alex.loren... Wait and see...

    @ keely : Great Race...Spline !!!

    6R
     
  26. keely

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    [​IMG]

    Adjustable collider depth got done today. Tomorrow I'm going for the colliderMesh feature.

    Finally killed one very evil bug too, which tormented me for days.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  27. alex.loren

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    Great work Keely, looking forward to when the update rolls out!
     
  28. Toad

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    Great stuff!
     
  29. keely

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    Just some random ramblings about development again. Keeps the thread bumped atleast :D

    Since the sudden popularity of the RageSpline, I've been thinking a lot of what features make sense and where do I want the tool to go. If you haven't read the current RageSpline plan #1, you might want to check it out too.

    Last night I didn't get any sleep (pretty standard for past few weeks) and was mulling over an idea for my next Asset Store product. I won't reveal what it will be yet, but at the same time I really had a strong feeling about my overall goals: I should try to keep my tool(s) "low-level".

    By low-level, I mean that I shouldn't try to offer any high-level features that are limited to some narrow game mechanics or stuff like that. While I know there's a place and demand for high-level stuff like "platformer framework" or "RPG creator", I don't want to go there. It's not my thang. If I need to boil this dogma down to a slogan, it would be: "Simple tools for creating complex games".

    By simple I don't mean cheap and lacking in power, but avoidance of feature-bloat over usability/fun.

    By complex I don't mean complicated, but rather a tool that is aimed for creating ANY type of game.

    This means that there won't be buttons like "create a racetrack" or "generate procedural terrain". You have to do those things by yourself or get some extension for RageSpline, which I hope are going to see the light of day eventually. I already know that atleast one 3rd party SVG import extension is being crafted, but future will tell if it becomes reality.

    I think it was worth writing out.
     
  30. Ethan

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    Hey keely,

    i had an idea for a new product when i saw the spline road:
    What i miss on other road/track generator scripts/products is, that you can not place crossings or switches (for rail f.ex.) to connect different tracks/rails/roads to a network. Maybe there could also be a small logic to access those roads for AI purposes.

    At least this is what i am searching for atm ;)

    Cheers
    Ethan
     
  31. keely

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    From the top of my head, doing an arbitrary road network tool is actually highly complicated. Not impossible, but it's a minefield.
     
  32. brandon

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    Awesome, that's the one feature that is majorly holding me back. So glad you're working on it.

    Two questions.
    1.)Will that work on non-closed paths.
    2.)Can I blend it into another texture halfway down the path or should I just put two splines together to get that effect. A lot of my path textures have a different texture that goes at the end of each path. Picture a rope with ends burned off.

    Bought this a couple of days ago, great work.
     
  33. keely

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    Yes.

    I think if you want to change texture half-way, the best bet is to just make two splines.

    Texturing a non-closed path with start-loop-end is a idea worth thinking about.

    Some alternative implementations:
    - two separate textures. Other for middle part loop and the other for spline ends. Most straight-forward, but maybe bad for performance?
    - having a start-middle-end styled texture with ping-pong looping the uv's on the middle part. Texture is easier to make, but the mirroring has some negative side-effects.
    - having a start-middle-end styled texture, but regular looping. You'd have to split the mesh and verts apart after every new loop. Gets very messy with pixel scale vs. spline scale.
    - having a texture-atlas, where the looped part is on the 1st "row". end-piece(s) on the second. Cleaner looping, but more inconvenience while making the texture.

    All the looping stuff has the obvious problem, that user needs to manually scale the loop to fit to the length of the spline, but such is life.
     
  34. brandon

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    That's what I meant, didn't actually mean half way, bad wording sorry. If you're talking about ways that you could include this in next version, I'de say two separate textures would be ideal since anything else would be hard to understand in the inspector. As far as performance goes, if you manage to implement this and then bake the results to a sprite like you are talking about with a lot of other features, it shouldn't matter after the bake. Then it could just be overlayed on a duplicate with box collisions and no textures.

    The difficulty I can see is in how to scale the loop texture to fit an arbitrary path length without ruining scale. You could have a gizmo to drag to scale the end textures. Then in the editor, pick the number of repeats of the loop texture and just stretch to fit.

    Just throwing out ideas, anyway glad you're entertaining the idea of end textures!
     
  35. p6r

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    Don't forget a radial gradient, please... with the possibility to move the center of course.

    6R
     
  36. keely

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    Radial gradient is unfortunately not possible with RageSpline. Only way to get radial gradient is to use a texture. There's no way around this.
     
  37. p6r

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    Ah ? Ok ! So I don't need to wait for it in the next update... ;-)

    6R
     
  38. keely

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    No I mean it will never be possible. This is a limitation of how the vertex colors interpolate between vertices.

    edit: I mean it's possible if you split the mesh in a certain circular way, but this gets so messy that I don't even want to think about it ;)
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
  39. p6r

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    Yes... It's what I wanted to say : No need to wait in A next update, if you prefer... not in THE next update ! :)

    6R
     
  40. Skyrise

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    Great work! Using this tool is a pleasure! ;)

    An ETA on the update? Not to hurry you, I'm just anxious to get my and on the new features! :)

    BTW, I'm using it in an iPhone/iPad project: works great on mobile, 60fps, always.
     
  41. keely

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    I made a policy not to have set dates. Gonna stick to it :)

    I haven't decided what features will be in the first update anyways. I'm gonna show screenshots and videos often so that ppl can give feedback before I'm shipping.
     
  42. keely

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    Thanks for this info. I don't have an iPad myself and I was pretty worried about that, since it's known to have some performance quirks vs. iPhones.

    How many RageSpline shapes, vertices and polys are you running on average? Have you tested how much it can take before fps starts to plummet?
     
  43. Skyrise

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    I've done only some preliminary test, no stress test yet, but a simple scene with the player model, some GUI, lots of particles but without enemy AI runs at 60fps with around 6k tris and 8-9k verts, and around 25-30 spline object in the scene. Tested it on iPhone 4/3GS and iPad (no iPad 2 yet :p). I feel I'm barely scratching the hardware and that I can push a lot more without problems.

    I'll be doing some more extensive test pushing lots of spline object, particles, lots of enemies with simple AI and I'll post the results. ;)
    No problem with fillrate so far on Retina Display and iPad display.

    I'm curious to test out if it's better to have lots and lots of box colliders or fewer mesh colliders on mobile once you deploy the next release.
     
  44. Dylan Fitterer

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    Thanks for the spline-point-moving code you posted here Keely:
    http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/86...ditor-RELEASED?p=566816&viewfull=1#post566816

    For others who want to play with it, a little fix was needed:
    Code (csharp):
    1.         RageSpline rageSpline = gameObject.GetComponent<RageSpline>();
    2.         foreach (RageSplinePoint rageVertex in rageSpline.spline.points) {
    3.             rageVertex.point += new Vector3(Random.Range(-1f, 1f), Random.Range(-1f, 1f), 0f);
    4.         }
    5.         rageSpline.RefreshMesh(false);
    Put that at the biginning of Update() in car.cs (in the RageCar example) to see the spline morph randomly.

    This code applies to RageSpline 1.0 and may not work in the future.
     
  45. Peter G

    Peter G

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    Your probably said this somewhere but I didn't feel like digging through 13 pages of stuff. How many verts do you create for a given curve? I'm sure you have some sort of adaptive algorithm, but let's say we have a circle. How many verts could I expect to be created to give it the smooth shape.
     
  46. keely

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    You can adjust vertexcount by yourself in the tool. You can't say how many verts it takes a circle to be smooth unless you know the pixelsize of the given circle. The way I'm doing anti-aliasing also needs extra vertices. Same with outline too if you're using it.

    If I open the example project RageCar, the stats say 23 draw calls, 5.5k verts and 15k polys.

    Then again. Even the mobile platforms seem to handle these numbers with ease. Like Skyrise said above, they have almost 10k verts and all around 60fps on iOS.
     
  47. artonator

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    Hi,

    I just have purchased your tool from the unity app store and I enjoy it very much. and I have couple questions.


    Can I change the angle of spline mesh? - wehn I would like to create Moebiouse Loop type spline geometry and animate them.

    Is there any way I can select different spline types other than bezire? - like parametric curves as below?
    http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~dfg/AndysSplineTutorial/

    Again, Thank you very for make your tool available for public.

    cheers,
     
  48. keely

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    889
    Can't be done. It's a 2D tool.

    Different spline types have been suggested. They would add value and I'm considering them. Won't happen in the near future though, because they're not critical.

    No problem. The pleasure is all mine. If you make anything cool with Ragespline, please let me know!
     
  49. Skyrise

    Skyrise

    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    158
    Some more benchmark:

    40+ spline
    25k tris
    15k verts
    52 draw call

    1 player moving around, almost all splines have colliders.

    60fps, always, on iPad/iPhone 4-3GS.

    I think you can push a lot more, and you need a lot less spline visible on screen to have a very nice looking scene on mobile hardware.
    And if you use some other techniques (quads with texture for details and so on) your limit will be even higher.

    I think the only problem on mobile is the fillrate (not on iPad 2! :p), you can push a lot of verts, so a lot of splines. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2011
  50. keely

    keely

    Unity Technologies

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    889
    This is pretty much the same story that I got with my own tests too. Thanks for validation!

    It really underlines the point that drawcalls/vertcount/polycount/etc are just numbers. They start to matter if the frame rate drops. If the framerate is 60fps, who cares about the number of drawcalls?