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Where's all the creativity?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Master-Frog, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. Velo222

    Velo222

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    I think that could be a good point. Now that anyone and everyone can become a "game dev", if they really want to, perhaps recognizing a game as being truly "creative" is actually a bit harder now?
     
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  2. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Then there are those who don't want to innovate. How many zombie survival games are there now?
     
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  3. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    Way too few good ones.
     
  4. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    Well guess what? People are idiots.

    ~~~

    What is the "it" factor? I mean, what do people find alluring? What makes them not go "meh"? It's when someone throws a lot of effort into whatever they're doing. Here's a good example.

    Lindsay Stirling was told that she was "not talented enough" to make a living dancing and playing her violin.


    And I could give you a dozen more examples of this very same thing, from the author Stephen King to J.K. Rowling and many others. Katy Perry had to wait years before she had an opportunity to find her little niche and, even though she is admittedly pop trash, she was the queen of pop trash for quite a while.

    We are rather basic creatures, ultimately, us humans--and what we recognize is not really talent, or ability, or skill, or results... no, we are only able to recognize one trait in other humans--drive, determination, and a willingness to continue in spite of all odds. The reason we are this way is because that tenacity is the only thing that makes us survive as a species.

    Nobody gives a S*** about someone who makes a plinky little game in Unity and thinks that everyone should take notice. Now if you make a Legend of Zelda clone with an original storyline a couple dozen unique enemies... only a complete asshole would be able to ignore that.

    If someone reading what I write or hearing me speak doesn't believe me, that's too bad, because it's that exact cynical, skeptical, non-committal attitude that leads people to places where nobody cares about them or what they do.

    Passion, energy, drive, those things are the saucy goodness of life. Why do you think the villain is almost always more compelling than the hero? The villain is trying to CHANGE something in the world, and the HERO is trying to PREVENT THAT CHANGE.

    Who if given the chance would rather be Cloud than Sephiroth? Naruto than Orochimaru? Wolverine than Magneto? Luke Skywalker than Darth Vader?

    PASSION

    OR NOBODY CARES

    It's not even about talent!
    Look at this guy:


    Do you know how many girls (and boys) were absolutely in love with this little dude?

    You gotta just F***ing go for it, even if it means looking stupid to some people. That's what it's all about maen.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  5. Ironmax

    Ironmax

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    in case nobody knows. Art means to be good at something.. (skill, knowledge). I only play games that has some factor of art in it. Sadly games are moving more in the direction of movie style than game experience and art..

    Master-Frog:
    I cant agree with you more. Lindsay Stirling so talented.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  6. MasterSubby

    MasterSubby

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    @Master-Frog - good stuff! Too much focus on monetization, technical ability and the like. I am not baffled one bit why most people aren't doing well in game development. I appreciate that information to an extent, but it becomes pretty much irrelevant. It isn't about that, and never will be if you plan to have staying power. It's about doing what you are extremely passionate about, and never giving up. Your ability to really execute your vision of the future, and not letting the universe, people, lack of time, or money, cause you to hold something back. Nothing wrong with all the technical jargon if it comes from a place of real passion and drive. It's hitting that sweet spot, when mind and reality are one.

    I see a lot of people talking how to shortcut themselves to success by stripping everything out, or making something small so you can just add a bunch of random stuff throughout time to make some bucks. How does that remotely feel exciting? Sure, it can happen, but I don't expect more than one or two minor hits in the span of a career. You certainly can make small games if that is your thing, and I encourage it. It certainly isn't all about the big games (or longer time spent playing one run through). I play Rocket League 1-2 hours every day, because of how it keeps me on the edge of my seat every time I play. That game is as basic as you can get. The thing is, it's obviously been developed with extreme care. It's super polished if you like sports type games.

    Not sure if it's just me, but I can literally feel the essence of something special in my body when it's done from that place. Butterflies, hair standing up, a real thrilling feeling.

    I believe too, it has zero to do with technical learning. I tried so hard many times to learn techniques to art, to learn music theory, ect... I just can't do it, I feel weird and like a try hard. I feel uneasy. Leading your own path, in spite of how much your told otherwise. It's your life, you want to own it and be it to the best you can. Not try to be someone elses working version of success. No two people will take the exact same route, and come out with the same results.

    Of course people have families to take care of, bills to pay, ect. It's your choice after all, maybe it'll work out for whomever, maybe not.

    I love this discussion btw, one of the very few I feel at home talking about. Good thought provoking posts here.
     
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  7. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    I don't wanna mock her in any way, but sadly "being pretty and marketable" seems to be the key limiting factor for female popstars. Lady Gaga was very unsuccessful before she started re-inventing herself with the weird outfits, but as far as I know she has always been a skilled musician and producer, even before she got famous.

    But what if I never played any Zelda or Final Fantasy game? And don't play many RPGs in general? And prefer a different art style because I never owned a PS1?
    I think if you embrace the fact that you'll never be able to make everyone care and instead focus a more select group of people that fit into an underserved niche, you'll be more successful in making them care.

    Also I think you vastly overestimate the respect an average gamer has for dedicated hard work. The entitlement I've seen on steam forums staggers belief. Maybe that's survivorship bias, because you only see the successful people and they've all worked very hard - on top of other factors? I have no hard facts to back it up, but I'm fairly certain the world is full of people who are super dedicated, worked very hard, and achieved almost nothing.
    You might enjoy reading the book "The war of art":
    http://www.stevenpressfield.com/the-war-of-art/

    Recently I've played Super Hot and the game is an excellent lesson in marketing. If I'm being honest I was slightly disappointed by the gameplay and content of the game, but the marketing is very clever and effective. The game literally tells you what you should say to your friends about the game, they've got several reviewers to use that phrase, so they could quote it on their store page. Steam reviews are also full of it. They have engineered the public response to their own game ahead of time as far as it is possible imho. Also after playing the game for a bit you've heard the name of the game hundreds of times, because they've put it into the game as voice over between missions. I've seen streamers chant it like an in-joke, and they can be sure that no player will forget the name. Those marketing techniques are ridiculously un-subtle and bold, but super effective nonetheless.

    If I were to market my game well, step 1 would be making a different game, because right now I'm working on something that is so niche and hard to communicate, that it's almost guarantueed to not be commercially successful (which is fine for a hobby!).
     
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  8. Rasly233

    Rasly233

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    Seems like every conversation in this forum turns into a group of anonymous losers talking about how you should not listen to random people that tell you that you suck. It is like when someone tells you you suck because you are not as successful as bill gates or some other lucker and you believe him then hes probably right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    neoshaman likes this.
  9. frosted

    frosted

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    Man, you are a really sh*tty person.
     
  10. Rasly233

    Rasly233

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    Your mom think im great.
     
  11. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Should you listen to people who are just out to insult you rather than provide helpful advice or constructive criticisms? No, and it's just a waste of time both for the person doing it and the person having to put up with it. At the same time if most of the community is offering you the same advice and you're choosing to ignore it you may just need to learn the hard way.

    Marketing is essential for modern game development. There are thousands of games being released daily and if you just release without any effort towards gathering an audience then you have a very slim chance to be noticed let alone being successful as well.

    Of course marketing isn't necessary in the slightest if your goal doesn't require your game to be popular.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  12. Rasly233

    Rasly233

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    It annoys me when people take unconstructive criticisms too seriously.

    Have wasted lots of time trying to convince my sister that editor that critized her book was just a bitch.
     
  13. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    Because if you have a really creative idea, why tell a bunch of other game developers so they can steal...I mean, get inspired by it? Better keep it to yourself! Blame capitalism.

    I've got the most amazing game I'm making that will blow your mind. But I'm not going to tell anyone about it until its 99% done.
     
  14. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Because they'll just steal it after you've released your game and still beat you at it. Ketchapp does it all the time. :p
     
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  15. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    I have met innumerable people in my life, from diverse backgrounds, age groups, etc. you name it and I've had a decent conversation with the majority of them, as well as spoken to thousands of people online, read thousands of posts and articles and I can honestly tell you, that in the whole of my experience, the vast and overwhelming majority of people are lazy sad sacks who wouldn't get up off the couch to answer the door if opportunity was pounding on it, saying, "I got all this opportunity here, man, I just need some help getting it up the stairs."

    People are driven by this strange force that tells them, "Get the most you can for the least amount of effort/energy/cost" and that's the way most people live every day of their lives.

    That being said, there are no guarantees in life, and if you expect there to be a guarantee... then that's just going along with the same mindset "get the most I can for the least amount of cost". People want a guarantee that their effort won't be wasted when they are making their game, they expect that they will see success, they calculate, scheme, predict the trajectory of their shots before they even pick up the ball and shoot... you see what I'm saying?

    At some point, for creative stuff to exist, someone has just gotta be stupid enough to pick up the guitar/keyboard/mouse whatever the hell it is, do the things they feel, wear the clothes they want, talk the way they want, be the person they want and stop thinking about the risk vs. reward ratios and the cost/benefit analysis.

    I was talking to this girl in L.A. at a indie game thing they had (which turned out to be nothing more than a sales pitch to integrate gambling into your games) and she said that once upon a time, tons of blue-haired hipsters kids would show up to these things, and now the crowd had changed, and it got me thinking, well... that makes sense, because the indie gaming culture has been effectively co-opted by medium-sized corporations that are looking to become large-sized corporations by profiting from all of this activity.

    I was introduced to all these corporate-sounding terms and jargon only in the last 2 years of my life, and I can honestly say it is the biggest sack of S***, providing no benefit whatosever to the individual, no value to the customers/clients (players in our case) at all, it all only serves to fatten the pockets of those whose pockets are already quite healthy.

    For me, it's the difference between someone saying, "I'm starting a game company and we're going to make products and our products" and someone saying "Hi I'm Joe and I made a cool game".

    We're now at that point where you can look at someone and say... yeah, that guy is a sell-out or a wannabe sell-out. They posture themselves for being taken-over by a larger outfit. Their goal is to be co-opted, everything they do is either about "monetization". Making that almighty buck.

    You can't fail if your goal is to make the game you want to play, to share an experience with others, to have fun and make things that hopefully others can have fun with.

    It's a paradox, I think, of sorts. You take a person who wants nothing but money, but has no passion, and you get this:



    Bullshit corporate rock band. The origin story for their band name was "Someone was reading a book about Chuck Berry and so Buck Cherry... get it? erherm" Oh yeah, totally believable that all these guys just met and formed a band like this.

    That band doesn't even exist anymore, by the way.

    He was trying to imitate this:



    As far as I know that guy is still out there, somewhere, still performing all of his songs with the same energy he always has. Seems to me if Mick Jagger was in it for the money he could have retired decades ago. What does he get out of it? I have no idea, but Jesus Christ I think he would do this for free...

    and ironically, at first, everybody has to, right?
     
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  16. Ironmax

    Ironmax

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    That is why developers should make there game online based, most of my games doesn't work without my server hook.
     
  17. GhulamJewel

    GhulamJewel

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    For those who need motivation. Do we all want to become bunch of losers hanging in a forum and saying game development is hard its a tough racket...

     
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  18. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Speaking of the steam moment there was in teh discussion, people who want more curation on the store I have a solution for you: Steam Affiliate Store, you can embedded it into your site or linked it IN your youtube page, take a cut on sales. Steam now become just a database that aggregate games with services to customer and curator store, basically a store operating system.

    As a customer you can go to a custom front that aggregate your curators and only seek through their curated backlog the same way you do with the main front store.

    As a dev you reduce people to who you need to talk by targeting curator based on their affinity with a genre, and curator can be marketing just by exposing you in their limited selection.

    It will also allow for experimental store and services to appear based on that model, what about store that always only have 10 curated best games? new model can appear while benefiting of the common underlying interface for the customer so all its game are in a single place.

    Make steam like the internet, and have people create front. It almost already work like this with the MOD/workshop part of the site.
     
  19. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    I hate salesmen. Kind of the polar opposite to being creative.

    Game development isn't particularly difficult it just takes a long time. It's coming up with the good idea that's the difficult part. Because all the best games will show you something you haven't seen before or never thought was possible in a game.
     
  20. Anthropic

    Anthropic

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    The whole corporate thing, all about money and screwing people is destroying the planet, society, and people's will to do anything, extreme apathy. Creative people don't want to be controlled by some corporate suits telling them what to do, and taking ownership of their creations to do with as they will. People drop out of society because these people have taken over. However, if you want to be creative and work for yourself then you have to fight, and get mad, like he said. There is money to be made, but you don't have to be like the unethical corporations and salesmen, you can do it the right way, the honest way, give people really great art that they are happy to pay for. Give people value, and if successful, hire like-minded people to work together to try to make things a little better in the world.

    About the creativity. If you're a creative person, with the ideas, new things, how to do things better, how to take old things and make them new and better, with vision, and determination, nothing can get in your way. Just stick with it, if you know, you have that spark inside, the fire, the imagination, nurture it, let it grow, and give it as a gift to the world in everything you do.
     
  21. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    My philosophy is "build it and they will come"

    You can build something average and flog it to death with a sales force.
    Or you can build something good and it will sell itself through word of mouth.
     
  22. QFSW

    QFSW

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    Or you can build something good and it goes unnoticed, stagnating in the seas of unknown games, mostly bad, some good
     
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  23. Player7

    Player7

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    .. I would say good ideas are not always simple to implement at all. And that generalizing game development as not difficult but just takes a long time, also doesn't fit all cases either.

    Anyway I don't think things are any less creative now then they were before, I just don't have infinite hours and money to explore and try out every market and game... and yet the stuff that rises to the top I generally ignore as most of it doesn't interest.. like steam weekly top sellers.. played about half those games and most of them have been out of years.. to me that just says a few things about the industry and tools, but it ain't going to change overnight.
     
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  24. bart_the_13th

    bart_the_13th

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    But.. but I like zombie games...
    I'm still playing L4D2 and State of decay...
     
  25. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    This is certainly valid. The market rewards the next iteration of COD far more then something like No Man's Sky. In many cases too much innovation will kill a product.
     
  26. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    True, but I think it's more about whether or not the product is solidly made. Sometimes you have to shoot and miss with a new idea, but I think that the things that made No Mans Sky take a lot of flak, were things that were measurably bad by current standards, i.e. grindy gameplay.

    I think if you want to try a new idea, you have to make sure that the parts of the game that are not innovative are at least good quality, or you won't really be able to say whether the new idea was what sunk it, or something else. If NMS had been an average quality survival game, but set on infinite number of worlds, I think that would have been more than enough to make people happy and call it a breakthrough.
     
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  27. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Well It's worth noting that with two update teh game has been redeem largely, even though the better experience are still MOD (aka small tweak).