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Unity Multiplayer @Unity: Hello, is there anybody out there? :P

Discussion in 'Multiplayer Networking' started by dylanh7244, Dec 13, 2016.

  1. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    TL;DR: From what we can see, Unity abandoned UNET, HLAPI, Host Migration, and any intentions of proper docs/demos for these 1.5 years ago.

    To this day, not 1 staff has denied it (because there's no staff in this part of the forum).

    Even the open-source BitBucket only had only the debug logs updated in the past 1.5 years just to update the date for anything relating to these files.


    @Unity, your networking docs are absolutely beautiful, your demos are inspiring, and your videos are clear + to the point, however, your pre-game/UNET/MatchMaker/HostMigration docs are sparse, conflicting and 2 major versions behind (as of December 2016) - and current demos/videos don't exist. How can you even advertise these as stable features if it's incomplete and you don't even answer even the most generic Q+A?

    _____________________________________


    If you want us to use UNET commercially, please at least add some staff to patrol the mplayer forum while your docs/demos are updating (because if it's 5.5 now and the docs were due in 5.3, are these docs even coming?). Even 1-line responses can save us weeks of trial+error. Even other community members can't assist each other because no one knows the standard - it ends up being quite the paradox. Hang out just a bit then the community can take over. If I can get a solid lobby working, I'll even make a 2nd video explaining it simply so everyone else will have a base to go by until the official docs are updated.

    What is happening now is most of this forum is regarding Photon because they provide support and docs for the product -- while Unity usually provides excellent customer service, support, docs and demos, there's this "black hole" for the multiplayer lobby, UNET, MatchMaker, host migration, and anything pre-game.

    Don't get me wrong, your docs for in-game multiplayer, demos and videos are SPECTACULAR! It's just that pre-game takes 100x longer than the core game simply because the core networking is documented and has people that can answer questions, while pre-game is not because no one knows! :p

    Anyway, just a plea to UNET devs to update their pre-game docs and perhaps answer a thread or 2 every now and then. Once you answer some standard Q+A, the community will eventually be able to take care of each other and we won't need specifically dev help-- or even better, update the docs and we won't need anyone for general Q+A!

    EDIT: I present to you THE ONLY (both official+unofficial) docs/tutorials/vid on the internet for UNET/Lobby/HLAPI: https://forum.unity3d.com/threads/hlapi-matchmaker-lobby-workflow-unofficial-documentation-please-contribute.446516

    EDIT 2: Now that these modules are more or less abandoned, I officially am swapping to Photon. Sorry guys, I tried everything.

    EDIT 3 (March 2017):
    There's a new "Tanks!" demo, but it's from a 3rd party and completely bloated, not even using the new stuff. It's optimized for production, so it looks like nothing you'd expect to see from any form of tutorial. Still no docs updated. Still no staff to argue it's not abandoned. Still no docs updated. Still no proper demo. Still no proper video. Host migration still not fixed. Still no staff roaming this part of the forum. Still no one to answer questions. All signs still point to abandonment - what a shame..
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
    RemDust, Meltdown, JoaoBorks and 7 others like this.
  2. kira419

    kira419

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    [​IMG]
     
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  3. pKallv

    pKallv

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    I could not say it better, this is exactly the situation. It is kind of hard to get questions answered. I was even recently promised an answer regarding SyncList from Fredrik Holmstrom @Unity but he did not come back to me despite reminders. I have found a really good resource at Freelancer that helps me to answer questions but that costs money.

    We need someone from Unity to help us!
     
    dylanh7244 likes this.
  4. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    https://forum.unity3d.com/threads/synclist-not-always-syncing-to-clients.404153/#post-2888789 this guy just gave a really awesome answer if it helps add onto what you learned from the other guy :)

    I have month+ old tickets that were never answered :/ the QA kept poking the devs to respond and they just wouldn't do it. Eventually the QA literally gave up and told me the truth, saying "I can't force them to answer your question".. He even started learning UNET/HLAPI himself so he could try and help me (what a cool QA). In the end, unfortunately, still never got an answer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  5. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    The plea to Unity continues~
     
    Railon23 and thegreatzebadiah like this.
  6. IAMBATMAN

    IAMBATMAN

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    Aug 14, 2015
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    (sneaky bump)

    UNET Dev team, please answer.
     
  7. Bill_Martini

    Bill_Martini

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    YES! please help us out here...
     
    thegreatzebadiah and IAMBATMAN like this.
  8. SweatyChair

    SweatyChair

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    +1, at least please finish the host migration for relay server match please, @unityteam!
     
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  9. LK84

    LK84

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    +1 can't believe noone from Unity is replying. Looking into Photon right now
     
    Leoo likes this.
  10. IAMBATMAN

    IAMBATMAN

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    I've already jumped ship to photon.
     
    Leoo likes this.
  11. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    I spent 2 months deciphering UNET for a lobby..... then spent 2 hours to make Photon lobby ready :( still no response O__o I monitor the Multiplayer section every now and then. I still say it's abandoned and have no idea why no staff is being hired to handle these features and this section of the forum. Other sections of the forum flourish -- I understand that mplayer is more difficult, however.. come on, it's Unity -- use your budget mates ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  12. robochase

    robochase

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    You guys know all the source code for unet is on bitbucket right? It's living, breathing, 100% accurate documentation :)
     
  13. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    If I wanted to go through 2 year old source code, I wouldn't be with Unity.

    Not to mention that this doesn't even resolve host migration not working, lack of mp support, or even minor customer service to basic Q+A, or proper docs. I still bump this thread every so often because I want to pay for Unity Plus/Pro. I hope one day there would be enough awareness where they would be forced to push an update and hire some staff to back their promises.
     
  14. robochase

    robochase

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    Dood it's not old source code, it's what unity actually uses.

    And looking at source code is great if you get hung up on something not working how you expect - just peek under the hood to see what you might be getting stuck on. And if it looks simple, fix the source code yourself and release your game. Or just wait for unity devs to fix your problems for you. Just trying to empower the people here :)
     
  15. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    Exactly. I don't know if you've been looking, but this hasn't been updated for almost a year now and there's no plans for 2017. Many of these features are simply abandoned and for months and months, not 1 dev has contested these words -- no point in fixing a dead horse, esp. if the doc is not willing to keep it alive.
     
  16. robochase

    robochase

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    Not really sure what you're talking about.

    https://bitbucket.org/Unity-Technologies/networking

    Last updated feb 1st. Seems very current and up to date to me.
     
  17. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    I could add change a comment and say it was updated today -- Some modules like Collab are being updated still (and rocks with awesome support). If these features in OP even had 1/100th of the love collab has, this post wouldn't even exist.

    I don't see 1 file even 2017:

    https://bitbucket.org/Unity-Technologies/networking/src/2bdd9961092c/Runtime/

    Try 2015-2016 -- the latest being April 2016 for 5.4.

    2017 roadmap
     
  18. robochase

    robochase

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  19. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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  20. robochase

    robochase

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    sorry i did link to the editor. but look at the runtime for 5.6 again (that you linked to!) - there's plenty of changes in there from the past month.

    and i stand by what i said - if you want to figure out how unet works, your absolute best bet is to look at the source code. if something there is incomplete, you can either wait for unity to fix it, or you can fix it yourself. for some people, waiting is a perfectly valid option. but if you're bound to a timeline, it's good to know you can pick up where unity left off and fix problems yourself.
     
  21. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    It's good to know for last-resorts, however the point of Unity is so you could be stress-free about this stuff where you won't have to even worry about this - hence being premium software. Especially when the only updates in the past year to the files that matter were debug logs

    https://www.diffchecker.com/diff

    5.4 vs 5.6

    That's sort of the point of being with Unity is for simplicity and to expect things to work with epic tutorials -- especially since this is premium software -- or there's no reason not to run to free competitors like Lumberyard (Amazon)
     
  22. Deni35

    Deni35

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    The source code of HLAPI looks very poor quality.
    • LLAPI and HLAPI are within the same namespace.
    • NetworkManager is very stupid class. This class is only suitable for simple example. But this class is part of engine.

    I even don't like the NetworkTransport.
    • GetAssetId must be in HLAPI.
    • IsStarted is deprecated. But why? What to use then?
    • There is no way to get host count.
    • There is no description to Shutdown.
     
    dylanh7244 likes this.
  23. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    I agree with all your comments -- however, this is the most annoying -- shutting down. I spent weeks asking how to do this. I opened tickets, I asked Unity Answers, I asked this subthread and could not get an answer from any source. No one knows the answer! For such a reasonable question, it's so frustrating no one can answer. That's where I go back to my comment that these features are abandoned - or why can no one answer such a simple question from any source?

    I lost so much time with trial+error, and still could not find the best answer.
     
  24. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    ninja bump
     
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  25. JoaoBorks

    JoaoBorks

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    Hey @dylanh7244, I recently found your post because I'm on the same journey you seemed to be. I also need to create a multiplayer game using unet etc etc. For me, after I found this framework, it gave me hope. My project is too early on development to try to implement this sort of thing, but I'm eager to give it a try once everything's ready. It was the most attractive solution I found.

    It's a shame UNET isn't that well documented and has this empty spaces all over it. I think it is a very powerful feature and unhappily it seems abandoned since you started this post. Even so, I'm investing on it. Good luck for us all.
     
    dylanh7244 likes this.
  26. marcV2g

    marcV2g

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    It would be really nice if anyone from unity would visit this subforum, too many zero replies on problems that seem like unity bugs.
     
    dylanh7244 likes this.
  27. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    "Tanks" 3rd party MPlayer UNET demo moves to Photon PUN. Maybe this is the final slap Unity needs to take action. It was already a REALLY advanced tutorial since it's production ready "with heavily modified callbacks".

    They said UNET "feels like a beta", LLAPI gets more attention, doc lacking, risky (since things randomly don't work like SyncVars), no punchthru, and lacking of docs.

    http://blog.photonengine.com/2017/01/dev-story-tanks-multiplayer/
     
  28. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    Why is everyone trying to use UNET when they can just use Photon instead? It's well documented, battle-tested and from what I've seen more cost effective than UNET.
     
    dylanh7244 likes this.
  29. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    If this isn't enough, Unity's own "Tanks!" multiplayer demo (not a good demo since it's production-ready) swapped from UNET to Photon!
    • When will Unity start supporting what they advertise?
    • Where is UNET docs?
    • Where is the in-house, non-production-ready demo?
    • Why are there over 100 pages of old docs, but only 8 bullets of lobby items when lobby is equally important?
    • Why isn't UNET, host migration, lobby or HLAPI in the 2017 roadmap?
    • Why isn't host migration fixed after confirmed broken back in June 2016, yet still advertised?
    • Why are there no staff in /multiplayer part of the forum?
    • Why are tickets or Unity Answers for multiplayer not being answered for even the most basic questions? This raises questions such as, does any staff even know UNET? Is UNET, in it's entirety, outsourced (and no longer funded or something)?
    • Why are there so many bugs that were never address?
    • Why hasn't the BitBucket for the core UNET files ever been updated after 1.5 years except for the Logs() and comments to make it appear that it's been updated? If you look at the diff, there's nothing for over a year.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  30. Royall

    Royall

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    I use UNET HLAPI in production and started using it since the launch.
    It frustrates me they don't have their priorities straight. They should have never launched UNET in it's current state as it is just missing lots of features modern networking engines have and I have the feeling they abandoned it indeed.

    Thinking about abondoning it myself :(
     
  31. Yoirgla

    Yoirgla

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    *bump* need LLAPI docs with full info :( I've been looking for information about it for ages (or someone who knows it toroughly) my project reached a full stop because of this.
     
  32. dadude123

    dadude123

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    Hmm all this scares me a bit.

    Can one of you guys tell me if I should switch to something else now or if I can keep using unity networking?

    Here is what I use/need:
    -no lobby management in any way
    - I'm using networkclient, networkserver, syncvar and networktransform
    - im sending a ton of custom game messages over unitys networkclient class.


    I have no need in any way for matchmaking, host migration, discovery in Lan,...

    Should I still be concerned about unity not giving a shot about the networking?
    Assuming everything works for me, would switching to photon actually give me anything new? Do they support syncvar or have some identical replacement?


    I hope someone here can enlighten me :S
     
  33. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    You CAN matchmake, but nearly ALL of the of the callbacks are buggy, conflicting, or simply doesn't work.

    Syncvars are confirmed only 1/2 working and unreliable. This is one of the reasons mentioned for the Tanks! demo to switch to Photon.

    Not gonna happen. This is one of the biggest dealbreakers with us. This means that if you have 15 players and the host disconnects at the very beginning, all 14 other players instantly crash. And guess what, because UNET callbacks are buggy, good luck handling that.

    YES! Run to Photon 100%. If you ever encounter ONE bug, then it's game over for your game - because it'll never be fixed. You'll never get support for it. And you'll never even know how to do 1/2 the things you want to do. Think about the future.

    1. Working, documented everything.
    2. Working, documented host migration.
    3. Working, documented matchmaking.
    4. Dedicated servers. No lag. UNET uses relay with no punchthrough. Expect lag.
    5. Reports of players struggling to click the "live" button from Unity staff, since there's really no Unity staff supporting mplayer. Even Tanks! mentioned this in their blog post linked above.
    6. Support and docs. Just support and docs in general. It's there. There also years and years of community following to answer questions and help along the way. Since UNET doesn't even bother to supply docs, not even the community knows what to do.

    It should scare you. This is why I keep this bumped. I lost 2 months of work to switch to Photon. Ironically, it took me TWO HOURS vs 2 months to figure out Photon.

    Do you see the date of the original post? Not 1 UNET staff member has challenged this post. THAT is what should scare you.

    [​IMG]
    Date of OP ^
     
  34. dadude123

    dadude123

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    Ok, thank you for the detailed post.
    I have two more questions of you don't mind:

    1. what about the ILRewriter though? For syncvar unity rewrites fields/properties to make them work.
    Does photon do this as well? Do they have their own ILRewriter that makes this magic happen?

    2. As I said above, I don't need matchmaking, punchthrough or whatever... I will handle login to game servers and all that on my own.
    Does the "CCU" limit still apply to me?
    I mean if I don't use their "service", just the code and documentation, then they can't enforce any kind of limitation, can they?
    Or how does that work.
     
  35. Yoirgla

    Yoirgla

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    It looks like the world is calling for a free and flexible networking system for unity ;-) @Unity ?
     
  36. dylanh7244

    dylanh7244

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    Apologies, that's beyond my knowledge :/

    I thought they would compete now that Amazon's new free, open-source (+integrated AWS/Twitch) Lumberyard engine is out n about. Star Citizen uses that now, too. I think it's C++, though. I mean Unity is still awesome, don't get me wrong -- just don't do anything multiplayer :p
     
  37. Bluemond

    Bluemond

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    I have had so many issues with UNet :'(
     
  38. HiddenMonk

    HiddenMonk

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    thegreatzebadiah likes this.
  39. Wobes

    Wobes

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    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message
    Instance not found when handling Command message


    10 Instance not found when handling Command message / 10

    [​IMG]

    P.S Server crash after this one. (If someone flood a bit your server and you trying to Respawn client object - RIP server).

    EDIT: TOOOP KEEEEK
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  40. larus

    larus

    Unity Technologies

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    A blog post has been in the community pipeline but didn't get it's turn in the queue before GDC, it should be going out this week. Relevant snippe from that about things we're working on now:
    • NAT punchthrough support. This will likely include an extra server type in our service, to facilitate NAT punchthrough connection setup and will add the feature to the transport layer and upwards (to high level API and network manager).
    • Improvements to the multiplayer dashboard. It is now easier to go live with auto-acceptance to limited CCU requests (this is live now) and it will be easier to get an overview of usage and statistics.
    • Improvements to matchmaking/relay service. This includes the much needed relay support for host migrations, notification messages about bandwidth thresholds and improved match filtering in the API.
    • Built-in Steamworks P2P API support. It's currently possible to route message sending/receiving to another transport, but only in the high level API. We plan on adding specific support for Steam including swapping the transport implementation in the transport API.
    This addresses some of the questions above about what is coming and the top complaints (host migration, nat punchthrough, steam integration). Before starting work on the stuff above we spent quite a bit of time on stabilization or addresseing issues with current features (so no work on new features). We've spent time on improving docs, like setting everything aside and just going over everything in the manual together over a period of a few weeks, also the lobby has received speical attention. These changes are with the doc team and I expect will be getting out soon. It's an ongoing process though and I expect we'll revisit it again. We've spent time on the bug pile, though some changes will need refactoring to be address properly and will take a bit longer to get addressed. There are bugs which have been prioritized lower so you might not have seen any reponse on those for a long time, ideally we'll bump prioritization on older bugs so everything will get closed eventually and nothing left behind.

    I'm not sure about the complaint about bitbucket not seeing any updates for 1.5 years. Sometimes it lags behind, that's true. It was updated last month with 5.6 changes, and latest releases (5.5/5.4) have also seen updates. Basically it just gets source dumps from the Unity source tree at appropriate times (it's not worked in directly).

    Stay tuned for the blog post with more information.
     
  41. thegreatzebadiah

    thegreatzebadiah

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    Disclaimer: I sell a plugin for NAT Punchthrough

    I'm sad to hear about punch-through being integrated but this is the second post whose wording has given me hope that it won't be any time soon at least. "This will likely include..." So it's not done and just waiting for release, it's still a "Coming soon..."

    Good news for me and my asset but I can't imagine anyone else is thrilled that such a basic feature, that was already in the old networking system, is still not done. This should have been included in the initial release of UNet and the decision to put it off for so long is IMO completely baffling.

    By not including punchthrough you are forcing everyone to use the relays even when it is completely unnecessary, which is about 90% of the time (on desktop platforms at least). This isn't just incredibly greedy, it's also severely degrading networking performance by introducing unneeded latency as NetworkMessages happily travel all the way across the country just to get to your buddy down the street.

    I am legit excited to hear about steam support and host migration over the relays though.

    Though a little bummed about steam support, that was going to be my next plugin :(
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  42. Zullar

    Zullar

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    Thanks for the update. Really looking forward to NAT punchtrough and steam support.

    I 100% agree with not adding new features until the core is stable and working. In the future when it comes time for the HLAPI... I think the NetworkBehaviour needs an overhaul. The biggest problem (for me) has been that it doesn't handle persistent objects that are carried from scene to scene properly (NetworkIdentity.observers are dropped temporarily causing bugs with Commands, RPC's, SyncVars, SyncLists, hooks fail, callbacks fail, values can be de-synced, serialized data won't send, destroy isn't always called). Additionally you cannot have mixed serialize data from Server --> Client and Client --> Server on 1 object (For example where NetworkTransform is controlled by client but NetworkAnimator is controlled by server).

    I've been keeping a list of HLAPI bugs here https://forum.unity3d.com/threads/my-compiled-list-of-unet-bugs-issues.403578/
     
  43. Erik-Juhl

    Erik-Juhl

    Unity Technologies

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    We made a decision to start with Relay as a 100% guaranteed solution and later add NAT punchthrough. There is no NAT punchthrough which is 100% guaranteed and we wanted something that was 100% to start.

    We honestly haven't had the manpower to get NAT punchthrough added since launch of UNet. It is a full time job for a team of four to run a live service, provide hands on assistance for teams trying to launch, fix bugs and docs as Larus just described, etc. Finding time for new development has honestly been a challenge as all those previous things are top priority. These are not excuses and they are certainly not anyone else's problem, but in the interest of better transparency that is the explanation.

    Also, when games go big and need much more CCU we have been giving that to the developer at no extra charge. Yes, it is possible that may change in the future but right now it's just odd to hear we are incredibly greedy by giving away extra CCU for free.
     
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  44. Karsten

    Karsten

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    There isnt even UPNP support in UNet wich should be the first before they add hacky, laggy and unreliable NAT punchthrough (i see dark punchthrough clouds upcomming) :rolleyes:
     
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  45. thegreatzebadiah

    thegreatzebadiah

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    Well I certainly wasn't aware of that. My assumption was just based on the fact that without punchthrough (and upnp) all connections go through relay, which is how Unity makes their money. If you're not charging that's awesome but..how much are you not charging? What do you mean extra CCU? I thought there were no CCU limits after going live anyway and all charges are based on bandwidth? Are you just saying you are lifting the ccu limit for games before they go live? Or that if a live game uses a lot of bandwidth you're not charging after a certain point? Sorry, not trying to be a jerk, I just want to understand for when we go live with our own game.

    P.S. I had no idea there are only four people on the UNet team. I don't know how you even manage..
     
  46. Erik-Juhl

    Erik-Juhl

    Unity Technologies

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    It's like trying to juggle wolverines.

    Later I'll post something to try to clarify the whole Live thing. But basically, if Live you can still set your CCU and bandwidth as a means of defining your own maximum possible monthly bill.
     
  47. Wobes

    Wobes

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    Hello dev. Can we ask you for a problem, I constantly recieve a Warning "Instance not found when handling Command message" when I want to kill a player Object. [​IMG]
    And as a result -> Server crash.

    What the proper way to destroy a player?
     
  48. thegreatzebadiah

    thegreatzebadiah

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  49. Wobes

    Wobes

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    152
  50. Wobes

    Wobes

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Posts:
    152
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017