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[Released] Morph Character System (MCS) - Male and Female

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by berk-maketafi, Sep 17, 2015.

  1. chiapet1021

    chiapet1021

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    Looks very intriguing. Will you be starting an asset thread on this? I have some questions, but don't want to clutter up this thread with off-topic posts.
     
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  2. DonGamerGuy

    DonGamerGuy

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    Sorry for asking this here, but I can't find the answer anywhere. I want to make clothing for use with MCS in unity but can't find information on it anywhere. Can I use Daz3d for that? Or do i have to use a different system/method for it to be compatible?
     
  3. THplusplusx

    THplusplusx

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    I'd simply LOVE to hear more about that.
     
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  4. cwmanley

    cwmanley

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    I apologize for the late response.

    I made a new thread here and uploaded a video demonstrating a HDSkin template.

    Thanks
     
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  5. Morph_JN

    Morph_JN

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    You can't do this yet. Soon....
     
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  6. LukeDawn

    LukeDawn

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    Hopefully we'll be able to make earrings, bracelets, armbands, anklets, and all sorts of other things that don't necessarily snap to a specific bone.
     
  7. budukratok

    budukratok

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    Is it OK that all morphs affect to some vertices on clothes like that? :) Starship Crew Female Pack. (also that badge looks so bad =( )
    morphVertexGoneWild.PNG
     
  8. umutozkan

    umutozkan

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    Hi, guys. I was experimenting and tried to get MCS female model into UMA as a new race.

    As a proof of concept I managed to generate 2 UMA slots (eyes and body) from the MCS Female Lite fbx. (please note that using MCS this way disables the use of morphs on the model, but you can define UMA DNA which is based on bone resize, to adust the model, which I have not done (yet). So no part of this character is adjustable in current state.)

    Seeing that this can be done, I have a few questions for Morph 3D people:

    1. May Morph3D model be used this way? If I wanted to ommit blendshape features and willing to use the model in UMA would I be violating anything?

    2. Since MCS Female Lite is free, can I use the MCS female lite's model, convert it into an UMA and put it on asset store for free so other people can use it too?

    3. I own both MCS male and female characters. Does this change answer to 1st question? (if answer to 1st question is negative as in I am not allowed to use it this way)



    MCSasUMA.png
     
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  9. cwmanley

    cwmanley

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    Hello,

    I have questions :)

    Can we sell or include Custom MCS content in our assets?

    Can I use Daz3D content to demonstrate my assets?

    Thanks
     
  10. hopeful

    hopeful

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    FWIW, I have always intended to use MCS art with the UMA system, for performance reasons. I don't see how a blendshape based system is going to be fast enough to run 100 or so characters in a scene, which is what I need, but of course if MCS updates and releases a new system that is highly performant (like, maybe it bakes out unnecessary blendshapes), that could change my mind. ;)
     
  11. davide445

    davide445

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    Currently testing DAZ characters in Unity, they are recognized as MCS.
    A problem with a Genesis 3 with dress is the skirt is correctly positioned, the top appear to be misaligned or so, no idea why. I used Wear Them All in DAZ to fit the Victoria 4 clothes on Genesis 3.
     
  12. AurimasBlazulionis

    AurimasBlazulionis

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    Any way of getting the hands straight to make them work with ragdoll?
     
  13. DonLoquacious

    DonLoquacious

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    The normal license for things on Daz3D don't cover video games, and the models are too high-poly to be usable in a video game environment anyways. In order to use Daz Originals specifically, you have to buy an extended license for $500 USD, assuming you make under 100k on video game sales in the past year. If you make more than that, you have to consult with the Daz team directly and it'll cost substaintially more. Using anything on Daz3D for video games that isn't specifically a Daz Original will require an extended license from whoever designed the model- some make that option available (typically far more expensive that the Daz Original extended license), but some don't give that option at all. If you use clothing assets, both the licenses for the clothing and the character using them will have to be adequate.

    Long story short, using those models in Unity isn't really worth it. Also, the team for MCS really don't seem to like answering questions about Daz products- it's a different team with different legal boundaries, and nothing on Daz was designed for video games.
     
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  14. FredrikSwe

    FredrikSwe

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    I downloaded this asset and it works great.

    BUT the loading time when I Instantiate a Male Gameobject with 4 content assets is up to 10 sec. (I am using a new computer)

    I read that its a known problem . If it should work like this, how can anyone make a game with this asset??
     
  15. davide445

    davide445

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    @Lysander thanks, in fact I'm not trying to create a game but a video for a NPO, so nothing commercial and nothing that will redistribute DAZ assets, just a video.
    Using DAZ characters since there are no such clothing on MCS store and for a video it's far less important the performance.
     
  16. DonLoquacious

    DonLoquacious

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    Unofficial answer- there's currently no such thing as "custom" MCS Content. The "artist tools" are just base 3D character models to fit clothing to like a mannequin- nothing more right now. If you make custom armor and weapons for that mannequin, you can do anything with them that you want- you can't even get new content to work with blendshapes yet, so the mannequin model is literally just a dimensions-check to see if the stuff would fit properly to the default settings.

    If you're talking about a derivative work for the existing MCS armor and weapons assets (using the existing models and just editing them), I doubt that's allowed.

    If you're talking about creating completely new content to use with the MCS system, like custom editors, armor/weapon models, etc... And the models themselves weren't just edited (derivatives) of existing MCS armor and weapons (they're brand new), then there's no legal reason why you wouldn't be able to. The Unity license allows for extensions/addons of existing works, but there are limits to what would be considered an extension or addon rather than just theft. Taking a piece of armor from MCS, recolouring it, and then re-selling it yourself wouldn't be allowed, but creating something new that snaps into the MCS system, or editors that extend the MCS functionality in some meaningful way, are fine.

    Including premium MCS content in your assets isn't likely to be allowed, although the Gaia developer made deals with several companies to allow exactly that, they were in the form of "demonstration/sample assets", heavily endorsed and more like advertisements for the original products. You might be able to set something like that up with the MCS people (contact them through their support ticket system and not on here though), but just a warning: not only is it not really likely that they'll agree, but your product would have to be priced significantly higher than the items you're "sampling" to avoid a basic loophole of people buying your stuff instead of the official MCS stuff, because it would be cheaper that way. Given what MCS content costs for individual armor/weapon sets, that's likely going to be a deal-breaker as well.

    You cannot use the free versions of the MCS models in commercial products, IIRC, but you MAY be able to use the premium models for promotional material for your Unity asset, like the images/videos (I think), as long as you make it clear that the models are not included in the actual product. Unity and MCS might not like that kind of thing, but AFAIK there's no specific rule against it as long as its clear that the demo is using assets not available in the product. I would get permission from the MCS team for that anyways.

    That's all for MCS though, not Daz. MCS and Daz, despite having the same parent company (if you want to look at it that way) are completely separate. Dealing with Daz products specifically is an entirely different beast. See my previous answer about the licenses and such for more information on that.
     
  17. DonLoquacious

    DonLoquacious

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    Sounds like good usage for them, the post was just as much about making others aware of the legal restrictions in that area. Ever since someone "cleverly" figured out that the MCS team works for the same company as the Daz team last year, there have been a ton of misunderstandings about the way that Daz content can be used.

    Honestly, I would think the poly counts would make it instantly understood that they aren't video game assets, but some people will only be deterred when you start throwing scary legal words at them *shrugs*.
     
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  18. DonLoquacious

    DonLoquacious

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    The tools to allow for attaching custom clothing/armor to characters don't exist yet. My short answer to this question is "you can't". The product is practically unusable unless you just want to use the default clothing made available and don't mind waiting forever for load times. Buying the product at this time is an investment- a hope that maybe it will become usable in the future. Our game's delivery date is now effectively being delayed due entirely to MCS.

    They said they've been working on a big update that includes a huge performance increase as well as the ability to add custom clothing/armor to the characters, and that they'll announce it at GDC in a little over a week from now. After being let down over and over in the past year, I'm finding it difficult to feel anything less than dread at this point, but we'll see.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  19. XCO

    XCO

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    May I ask how do I apply the injection mask onto the character myself. I mean say I apply a pair of boots and they come with the injection mask how do I use that injection mask myself, instead of it applying when do boots are applied ? Sorry new too injection masks :D
     
  20. THplusplusx

    THplusplusx

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    See also my post on page #29 to improve instantiation times by about 50%. It's hacky but it works for me.
     
  21. FredrikSwe

    FredrikSwe

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    Ok thx. Will test it.
    I did some special things aswell that removed most of the loading time.
    I disable the scripts: CIClothes in prefab. And only enable them when I use them the first time. Works for me.
    I have to wait 0.5s before make clothes visible after activate them.

    This way it loads faster, and I can use the asset.
     
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  22. cwmanley

    cwmanley

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    Hi XCO,

    I think the combined injector mask is stored as a texture in the material of the base mesh.

    To update the combined injector mask, change the texture on the CIclothing component then toggle the item on and off.

    Thanks
     
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  23. DonLoquacious

    DonLoquacious

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    The ability to create custom MCS content was supposed to be a part of the deal since day 1, and it's why we paid hundreds of dollars for these specific assets over the multitude of other options. No offense- I'm happy that you're having good results and everything, but we've spent a ton of money now on things that we can't even use. While some people might be willing to instantly drop another $50+ on a third party asset to "fix" MCS, and they wouldn't be wrong to do so, my two immediate thoughts are a bit different.

    First, your tool might reduce the pressure (and pressure is literally the ONLY thing we have going for us) and further delay the actual MCS team giving actual support for this- support we've already been waiting for going on a year now, and which they finally, FINALLY, seem ready to actually give. Second, that if it doesn't delay anything, then support might be only a week or two away, and the money on your product is completely wasted.

    Most of all though, I'm just absolutely furious that it's come to the point where throwing money at someone who has nothing to do with MCS is the only way to fix MCS. It's not good enough. If the support doesn't come, I can't really see using their products at all- we might have to fight for refunds. I've never demanded a refund for anything in my entire life- I truly hate confrontation and I'm usually a really nice guy, but every time I see updates in this thread and it's not "oh, by the way, the product is usable now in production environments", it's like getting punched in the gut again.

    This has little to do with you- I'm sure you're a swell person and a good developer, but your product infuriates me. Every time you mention it, it infuriates me even more. It shouldn't be necessary- the cost of those features were what we were already paying for.

    Whatever- I'm going to go cool my head for a bit. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
  24. Astaelan1

    Astaelan1

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    @Lysander
    You are not wrong, while clearly upset and with acceptable reasons for it, there are some factors that I believe need to be considered too. So please don't feel this is by any means defending or justifying the communications from M3D about any of this. These are just my unbiased feelings about any asset that is purchased.
    Promises that were or were not made mean nothing, if you purchased a product that does not do what you wanted on the day you bought it, then you bought it on faith that some day it would be what you need. Whether that faith has turned bad now is also irrelevant. When you purchased the product you felt it had something valuable to offer you, and probably still do IF it reaches a certain point. Basing a game on the premise of an unfinished, immature product was a poor choice from the start.
    Lacking the content creation tools is certainly a game stopper if your game is ready for launch. You should not be at the point of still even considering an incomplete product like M3D if that's where you are today.

    That said, I'm sure it's a bit more salt in the wound that they just gave away, for free, the full base male and female models ($100 value), and the rest of us who decided not to fork out money for an incomplete product now have what you paid for while we toyed with the lite versions and knew it wasn't ready.
    The flipside is, if the tools are unstable and just not ready to be in our hands, I'd rather wait for a solid product which is the same thing we tell any other asset developer. Gaia had a 6 month delay in it's release, uNature was also pushed 6+ months. I can think of other examples that ended up worth the wait as well. What really matters is that when it's released, it does what the label says, is stable, and lets us be productive.

    Now, this sounds mostly like I'm making an excuse for M3D, please realize I'm not. They have not delivered on the expectations they set, intentionally or not. See what happened to No Man's Sky when they used this tactic of marketing, somewhere in the vicinity of 40% refunded sales in the first day. It's a bad idea to even announce stuff you can't deliver in a "new york minute". It's fine to say "There will be creation tools available in the future" it is not okay to say "There will be creation tools available soon". When you say something will be available soon, the definition of soon must be defined by those waiting for it and paying in advance to support those expectations that are set. We hear soon, we think a week or two, a month if there is some hurdles. Something as big as swapping into Generation 3 formats, I might even excuse a little longer. But for each of these delays, the pressure should be on to get those tools out before the community considers M3D vaporware and abandons their faith into it.
    If neccessary, draw a line and release with tools at a version that is stable but maybe not optimal (you already did this with MCS, why not the tools?). Show some good faith that you'll follow up with another version, and feedback from the actual users buying and using the assets and tools to take it down the right path before you invest years into developing it and it misses the mark with tons of features that don't work.

    tl;dr...

    Anyway, to @Lysander again... Morale of the story is... you bought a resource before it did what you wanted it to do, on faith. You can point fingers and be upset with M3D not delivering unfinished parts in a timely fashion, and even be justified in it, but you should also accept a little responsibility for your part in it and further supporting this phenomenon by paying for the incomplete product. Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and made them buy it. Consider this a lesson in the future about taking a leap before a product is complete, or before at least having past experiences with the author to justify the faith in them. It's one thing to early adopt an asset from an author you know does good work and has great support. But a leap of faith into M3D... was just that... and you got burned.
     
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  25. LukeDawn

    LukeDawn

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    I think we'll hear more at GDC as they have a presence there, and the promo stated "thousands of new assets and tools". This is what we're waiting for.
     
  26. DonLoquacious

    DonLoquacious

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    @Astaelan1 I understand what you're saying, and you're correct- we got burned and maybe it was our own fault for placing our trust in a developer that hadn't earned it yet. We were ignorant, we saw all of the glitter and shiny features we'd be getting and we jumped on it. Sure.

    They have development problems, and I get that- we've actually been quite patient really. Just keep in mind though that our "fault" here is inversely proportional to the quality of the developer. If the developer is truly justified in everything that's happened, then our trust wasn't misplaced. If our "fault" is great, then the developer obviously can't be very good.

    I'm only clarifying this because you leave enough room in your argument ("if the product turns out to be excellent") for it to seem like the fault is entirely, or at least mainly, ours. That's simply not the case. Turning your back on a stranger is not actually an invitation for a knife. If we "got burned", it's because they burned us. We asked if it would be ready soon before purchase, and they said yes.

    More important than any of that though- their glaring mistakes absolutely give us the right to let off steam by yelling at them. Every action has a reaction, and you have to be prepared for a little badmouthing when you push the release dates back, promise features "soon" that you don't deliver on, refuse to give meaningful updates to people who have already purchased your product and instead make them wait for GDC to know if the product is actually going to be usable soon, etc...

    So yeah, I'll keep badmouthing them right up until they actually fulfill their promises, and I won't be made to feel bad for doing it- even if "you aren't justifying them". We'll be more cautious in the future, and we'll learn from our mistakes, but that's that, and this is this.

    I'll make sure every single page in this thread has a comment that mentions the assets can't actually be used as advertised yet, and that this is a (very) longstanding issue that probably won't be cured soon, because otherwise, with a developer this uncommunicative, how would any potential buyers actually know? And each time I'll probably get angry and have a few choice words for them making us wait this long, and that's my right I think.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
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  27. Astaelan1

    Astaelan1

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    @Lysander
    Again, I don't disagree with what you've said. And if you felt I was placing too much blame on you, I apologize. MCS has clearly failed to communicate sufficiently or people wouldn't be this upset in the first place, no argument from me. I guess my original point is that you have every right to use your buying power to ensure nobody else makes the same mistake. I encourage that you continue to inform the audience to avoid any ignorance on their part not taking the time to read 30 pages and see frequent mention of this already. I would be hard pressed to recommend M3D to anyone as anything more than "check out this neat toy" right now.
    But, at the end it was a mistake to buy into a product unknowingly, and you understand the most important thing is to learn from it. In the meantime, preach on brother and keep the pressure on to get them tools out.
     
  28. DonLoquacious

    DonLoquacious

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    @Astaelan1 I apologize as well- I'm getting too emotional (and confrontational) about this. This case is especially hard for me for a few reasons, like convincing my studio to pay for it because the features were so enticing. It's not the first time I've been personally let down by a product, but it's the first time it's happened in such an extravagant fashion.

    The biggest reason it's so aggravating though is because it's still so enticing- despite the massive delays and lack of communication, I'm still here waiting. I'm still checking the thread every single day. It's something I want that badly, even now. Every day is another knife in the heart, not because of the money we spent, but because I don't want a refund. I just want it to work.

    Anyways, I'm going to force myself to not bother checking here again until GDC. If they announce that their tools are only going to be available to select companies/individuals for making commercial model assets, or that they're pushing the release back another six months, or one of the other three dozen "awesome announcements" I'm having nightmares about, I'll have no choice but to just be done with them and ask my studio to push for refunds. And I'll probably cry from the disappointment afterwards.

    *sighs*
     
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  29. Astaelan1

    Astaelan1

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    @Lysander
    I understand all too well, there would not be frustration if M3D could just be tossed aside for another option. I can understand your frustration with expectations that by this point you'd have had time to develop the clothing assets and have a wardrobe that's extensive. But with no real information even on the workflow, it's hard to put artists to work and know they will be developing the right bits. I guess the artist tools help a bit... *groan*

    Well, this prompted me to go back and find a post I read recently, page 27... December 7th I think, I quote from Morph3D in response to them releasing to select companies first. Now, as always, take this with a grain of salt, but this was the response from the guys above, explicitly about this concern:

    "You're responses are always well written and even tempered so I take no offense. I actually had a good chuckle. Just got done speaking with the people who make more money than I do. I was told that when the MCS Tools are released everyone will have the opportunity to access them."

    This might be a retraction or change in their decision due to the outcry, or simply a mistaken communication in the first place about releasing to select creators first. So once again, keep the pressure on, might have been you guys who pushed this one to change.
    But, if you missed the post I thought I might point it out as a glimmer of hope that maybe they won't retract this statement. Once they are out, we'll all have access to them. Of course, again, careful wording, don't assume they'll be free or part of what you already paid for, I haven't yet found any good indication that we won't have to pay to create assets not entirely unlike subscription for SpeedTree Modeller with similar limitations... But there is no point speculating anymore, GDC is just around the corner... let's hope for good news.
     
  30. Morph_JN

    Morph_JN

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    1. Probably not, but read this to make sure: https://www.morph3d.com/eula
    2. Definitely a hard no on this one. The license to use the figure in a game is free. There is no license granted for redistributing in part or in whole any part of the figure. Even if you've modified it.
    3. The answer to 1 would be the same in the lite and full versions. Their eula is identical.
     
  31. cwmanley

    cwmanley

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    I just read this and the eula. I apologize for not really thinking my project through.

    I do not want to break or help people break the terms of use.

    MCS is my favorite avatar system despite the issues the content is worth the investment.

    I will continue my project as a UMA project, unless given permission. Sorry.

    Thanks
     
  32. crudeMe

    crudeMe

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    Oh, for god's sake. At last - a shed of light in the kingdom of broken dreams and longwaited updates. And even it was extinguished by the eula. Greed, I guess.

    Didn't read all the fuzz about your tool, but I think you did a great job. Apparently, you have a talent in that sorts of things.

    I'm not really familiar with UMA as well, but it looks way too complicated at first sight and results are kinda creepy.
    As to MCS, after reading answer they gave to you and combining with their current monetization model, I do understand now what's actually their motto. Can't blame them, they've done great system and... some models and.. some costumes I have no idea where to put. I still will be watching mcs thread and hope things turn out well AFTER GDC (yeah).

    If you ever would consider creating your own decent and healthy competitor, which would take best of both worlds, we could help you kickstart it.

    Sorry for offtopic. Love!
     
  33. umutozkan

    umutozkan

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    Thanks for the clarification, I guess I'll look for a way to modify / beautify base UMA models then.
     
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  34. LukeDawn

    LukeDawn

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    UMA desperately needs some new models or at least skins that are prettier. The current skins (even the ones on the asset store) are just bad and ugly. A good artist would make a killing selling a set of good UMA skins.
     
  35. Morph_JN

    Morph_JN

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    It looks like that is happening on a lower LOD for the outfit. It shouldn't be happening though. If you submit a ticket to our zendesk help page and let me know what blendshape you are using, what LOD etc I can file a bug report.
     
  36. EDarkness

    EDarkness

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    Are we going to see the new update for Morph3D this week?
     
  37. Morph_JN

    Morph_JN

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    Each content pack has a component that is a sub class of CostumeItem CIclothing, CIhair, CIprop. These have a slot for the injection mask for that CostumeItem. If you've created a custom injection mask just drag the injection mask into the AlphaMask slot on the CI[itemtype] component.
     
  38. Whippets

    Whippets

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    Brace yourselves; all of the assets are being updated to 1.6... This seems to be a fairly slow process, obviously a fair bit of work involved.
     
  39. wetcircuit

    wetcircuit

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    I see 1 update so far…. What are we gaining by this update?
     
  40. Whippets

    Whippets

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    1.6 is th new version with updated code supposed to fix a number of things and improve performance. Hopefully someone will come and tell us all about it :)
     
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  41. wetcircuit

    wetcircuit

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    Ok, just checking (and I did scroll back several pages to see if it was discussed). Last I recall reading in this thread, 1.5 was suppose to fix the broken morphs…. or "simplify" them whatever that means (according to "Crissie" page 25). I wasted too much time looking back for some real info, but then I remembered which product we were talking about. :rolleyes:
     
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  42. LennartJohansen

    LennartJohansen

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    Update 1.6 is out. testing now
     
  43. RonnyDance

    RonnyDance

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    The Changelog to 1.6 in the Assetstore is incredible... More information would be really good...
     
  44. LennartJohansen

    LennartJohansen

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  45. Morph_JN

    Morph_JN

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    Posts:
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    I'm sure many of you have seen notifications of assets being updated to 1.6. We're still waiting for some of the updates to roll out. At that point we'll make an official announcement. In the meantime please please please back up your projects before updating anything. We'll be back with more information later.
     
  46. umutozkan

    umutozkan

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Posts:
    406
    Apparently, "artist tools" is released.

    https://www.morph3d.com/artist-tools

    Edit* BTW I saw the comment they made as a reply to a review on MCS Male asset page. So it means someone took the time to login to unity asset store and write the reply. But no one's posted in this thread. So let's just accept it; Morph 3D hates people in this thread :p
     
  47. DonLoquacious

    DonLoquacious

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Posts:
    1,667
    I'm literally crying right now... After all of the time, and all of the frustration, I'm so glad this didn't turn out to be just vaporware. This feels like a hundred roadblocks to game development just disappeared, all at once- it's an indescribable feeling.

    Of course, I haven't had a chance to test anything yet, so that's not to say it went from "unusable" to "perfect"- but just "unusable" to "usable" is such a massive weight off of my chest I'm having problems figuring out how to react.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  48. Morph_JN

    Morph_JN

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Posts:
    123
    We don't hate you guys. It's more like a healthy contempt. ;) I was more trying to avoid the If You Give a Mouse a Cookie scenario.

    If you give the people Artist Tools they'll want documentation to go with it.
    If you give them documentation they'll be able to use the program.
    If they use the program they'll probably find bugs.
    When they find the bugs they'll want to submit them so they'll ask you to build a bug tracker.
    If you you build a bug tracker the people will submit their bugs.
    When they submit their bugs they'll expect them to get fixed.

    That just sounds like a lot of work to me.

    Also please please please backup your projects.
     
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  49. Whippets

    Whippets

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Posts:
    1,775
    Can people make things with the artist's tools that they can sell either on the asset store or morph3d store to the rest of us?
     
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  50. Morph_JN

    Morph_JN

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Posts:
    123
    AT is for processing content that people have made, not for the content creation process itself. For that you would need something like Maya or 3DS Max.

    As far as re-selling that content. That information is outlined in the updated EULA found here: morph3d.com/eula the section of interest is the Content Creation Tools section.

    The short answer is that reselling the converted content through Morph3D is allowed.

    Edit to Add:
    Here is a blog post about Artist Tools with an overview video:
    https://www.morph3d.com/community/mcs-artist-tools
     
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