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NGUI developer leaves Unity, New GUI?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Arowx, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. derkoi

    derkoi

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    I don't understand why people keep moaning about the upcoming gui. It's not like there are no solutions out there you can use.
     
  2. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Very true. GUI tools certainly can be helpful if they fit your need, but they aren't a "separate" part/system of the game.

    ---

    I Unity GUI as it currently is fantastic for what it is. Editor tools prototyping. When building stuff that I want to get some feedback (states, values, whatever), or just slap some temp buttons on something to force a state/action. They OnGUI is a perfect solution with no set up and only line or two. Personally, I don't use any of it in a release, but great for development.

    I don't particularly have any interest in a new gui at this point, NGUI or custom solutions(+sprites) work great for me. Also our projects are part way through with some with a year till launch, even a new GUI came out today, we wouldn't be using it... (my main project isn't even on 4.3 yet.). My only real hope is that if they do eventually release a new "GUI system", that they won't get rid of OnGUI or muck with it.
     
  3. Deleted User

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    I don't think any of us really are, there seems a fair few opinions that people don't really care about the upcoming GUI system. They have their favourite tool and I'd hazard a guess that most people won't swap their favourite tool out mid project.

    The question is more around, what's happening with Unity? Why such delays?

    I very much agree with Jc_lvngstn
     
  4. jc_lvngstn

    jc_lvngstn

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    Looking back on that post...I have to admit that came off a bit more negative than I intended. Unity has allowed me to accomplish things I couldn't have done otherwise, I very much appreciate what it does. But I'm confused by their community interaction.
     
  5. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    Alright, I seem to believe you don't quite know what you're talking about and you seem to believe I don't.

    I'll answer and then let's find a way to prove our points, either technically or by showing what we have each done to form this opinion? Because opinions are pretty worthless.

    "Tools are what make game engines" Yep I agree in more ways than one, I am one of those "tools".

    Then after that, it stops making any relevance or sense.. I create a .FBX loader / .OBJ loader, does it not serve the purpose of loading models? Does it restrict you in any way? Let's take a terrain tool to manipulate a plane and paint it with textures, does this not function the same from engine to engine? Because last time I checked all major engines had this and it works pretty much the same. Physics, Time, Transforms, Sound, Input..

    You have heard of modular non-interdependent engine design haven't you?

    Every major engine does the exact same in regards to the basics.!! So you're saying, you can't create any game in CE or UDK why exactly? Because you have innate experience of engines and that's how you came to the conclusion you can't? Hmmm! What exactly do you want, make a game button? That would heavily restrict the type of game you made!

    In fact, I'd say Unity is more riddled and problematic with some specific games than other engines.. Due to things like a 32-Bit editor making life painful every step of the way.

    Well I have no choice at the moment, the slurry of issues requires a new toolset with Unity!.. If I had it my way I wouldn't bother either. I've frantically looked at ways to make things right and I have, I decided to do it all from scratch again!! I've built and failed many times at making engines, never once has what type of game you can play been an issue.! Usually the engine crashing, general bugs, cross compatibility, not having an exposed engine whilst trying to retain some flexibility, documentation and abstraction have plagued every step of the way.!

    I've never used Torque tbh.. So not a clue!.

    You say that like you know better, come on then give me the technicals of how it all works so I can avoid it myself! I didn't say it was easy, neither did I say it isn't time consuming but it is do-able even for small teams.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2014
  6. angrypenguin

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    Yeah, this is directly where my mind jumped earlier when I saw a comment regarding everything being built on OpenGL and/or DirectX anyway. A renderer is not an engine, and the same goes for all of the other components. A huge amount of time invested into an engine, and a huge amount of the value derived from it, is about the tools and pipelines and workflows surrounding it rather than the runtime itself.
     
  7. Deleted User

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    @Chariot's

    Simply put there is no such thing as a "Generic" tool, you either have the feature set you need or you don't, this also applies to Unity too as there are many features it does lack and no engine is perfect. You seem to have inadvertently expressed that with your FPS vs. Space Shooter comparison.

    @ AngryPenguin

    Obviously :p

    Lastly, we seems to be heading completely in the wrong direction here. Why is it taking so long for Unity to sort out this GUI business or whatever!?
     
  8. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    I actually like Unity's built in gui you use for the editor etc. If it was just extended slightly with a robust sprite drawing mechanism and optimised, it'd be perfect for my needs.

    I like being able to just combine the if check with the gui drawing call. I think it's pretty neat from a programming point of view.
     
  9. Dantus

    Dantus

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    They are tightly integrating the new GUI with very new or unreleased features. That includes at least nested prefabs and a new event system. Releasing nested prefabs before the new GUI makes a lot of sense and getting it seamlessly integrated even more.
    Keep in mind that everything that is delivered by Unity certainly needs an outstanding integration with existing functionality and needs to be heavily tested on all platforms. Even if they took NGUI as a basis after they dropped their previous approaches, they had to make a huge amount of changes to it. E.g. to get rid of several depth sorting issues that were present in NGUI. Then recently released the 2D stuff, which again forced them to update the new GUI to be based on that functionality, like the renderers and the atlasing. Everything else would have been stupid from a software engineering point of view.
    Unity seems to ask certain users from time to time about their opinion of the current state of new features. If they find serious issues which can also include usability deficiencies, they will take another cycle to get rid of those issues. Getting rid of usability issues can lead to a whole refactoring of the editor integration which takes a huge amount of time.
    It took them so long, it's better for them to wait until they have a top notch solution. The worst thing that could happen is that they find serious issues after the release of the new GUI which forces them to update it and end up with new GUI 2.0 which is incompatible with new GUI 1.0.
     
  10. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis

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    I am on the same boat.
     
  11. Aurore

    Aurore

    Director of Real-Time Learning

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    The new GUI is still expected to be released during the 4.x cycle.​
     
  12. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Yay!

    If only they had added WYSIWYG to it!
     
  13. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    I'm a fan of this: https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/#/content/10374

    can parse xml and such, packs png sequences into a better format, etc
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2014
  14. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    JINX!!
    The first rule of Fight Club : You do not talk about Fight Club!

    Seriously, now we will hold your words for it Aurore! :)
     
  15. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    Nice middle alignment on that post there, is that one of the new GUI features?
     
  16. Dabeh

    Dabeh

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    Still? Hmmmm

    Does anyone else feel the tension?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  17. angrypenguin

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    Maybe. Maybe not. I can absolutely understand preferring to do your own thing instead of working a games tech company just as a part of the nature of the business.

    Plus, it's perfectly reasonable for bug reports with 3rd party stuff in them to go to the bottom of the pile. For starters they're probably not minimal repros, and on top of that there's a raft of 3rd party stuff that may or may not be involved. So its not just Unity plus your repro code that has to be taken into account, but also a whole plugin (some of which come in DLL format and thus can't be investigated easily). If they already can't check out every report in detail, then I'd also be sticking the ones statistically most likely to not be a bug with Unity itself and/or harder to investigate at the bottom of the pile. May as well maximise what can be done in the time available. (And I do think they do a fairly good job.)
     
  18. Dabeh

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    I agree, I just felt the way he said it expresses a bit of aversion to his prior employer.

    Probably just my human need for drama.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  19. angel_m

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    Yes.
     
  20. Mikie

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    Yeh. 4.9.9.9.9.9.9.9. Two years from now maybe.
     
  21. alexzzzz

    alexzzzz

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    Duke NoGUI Forever

    I've heard they are going to release the sources. Maybe not all the sources, but the most of them, if I'm not mistaken.
     
  22. BrainMelter

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    Come to think of it, I do remember hearing that somewhere. I guess when it comes to hacking, it all depends on the amount you do. I've made several light hacks to things from the Asset Store, and it hasn't been too troublesome. Even Daikon Forge, which I like a lot, did something that I didn't like, so I made some new functions based off DF source code.

    When I made the comment, it was in reference to hacking open source engines. Typically those hacks are much heavier, to the point where it becomes difficult to merge in updates from the original author. Effectively, the code is yours at that point. If Unity Gui requires that amount of hacking, I think that's a bad thing.
     
  23. Lypheus

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    In regards to the early departure, my opinion is that there was an EGOException thrown while trying to integrate NGUI as part of the Unity3D vision for a new gui (whatever that is, they seem a little lost in general here).

    Where NGUI is concerned, frankly I'm quite optimistic hearing this news - I can't imagine a worse solution than trying to graft NGUI onto core Unity3D as the default GUI. I'm guessing UT is at the "we gotta do something!" point, but to be honest, NGUI is not a solution i'd want to be using for any reasonably complex GUI project. If UT is looking for a robust gui framework, start looking at established frameworks that have already solved these issues for inspiration, even outside the gaming industry. MVC/MVP need not be overly complex and can sustain very solid gui frameworks, more than sufficient for game development.

    UT needs to focus on the core engine and support a tiered approach to asset store quality (i.e. UT Certified vs non assets) - let us deal with building particle builders, gui builders, etc... UT should focus on core engine/tool concerns such as profiling, gui, networking, etc... build the integration points with solid workspace, ide support, etc... and let the asset store providers extend from there.
     
  24. bluescrn

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    The problem with all 3rd-party GUI solutions is that building meshes from scripts quickly becomes incredibly expensive, at least on mobile - especially when there's quite a lot of polygons (e.g. lots of text and widgets)

    The systems can try to optimize around this, but there's always times when the whole mesh needs updating (for example, with NGUI, if you use the panel alpha to fade out a screen), and performance can quickly be utterly destroyed.

    This is why a native GUI system still seems important. (Maybe future UI systems will be able to get better performance by using/abusing the 4.3 sprite system, though?)
     
  25. kaiyum

    kaiyum

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    I am abusing:)confused:) 4.3 sprite system for UI, so far it is great!
     
  26. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Same here, it works really well for UI.
     
  27. jashan

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    I don't know Michael personally, only from some of his online communications … and the presentation of the "new GUI", so … I try to avoid to say too much (I'll leave it at we don't seem to use the same way of communicating, even though apparently using the same language) … but … personally I've never liked NGUI much and was rather shocked that they ditched what was looking like a rather promising new GUI system to have some sort of NGUI 2.0 built in.

    I also found it pretty shocking that Nicholas left UT because he really knows what he's doing even though he may have a somewhat too strong tendency towards perfectionism (but look at Unity's editor UI - the way this is all set up - and you see when this kind of perfectionism really pays; I just hope he'll be back once he's finished his own game project and that way has gained a "customer's" perspective of his own baby ;-) ).

    So, in my opinion, Michael no longer working for Unity is tremendously good news … and most likely, this will actually get us the new GUI system much faster than if he still was working for them. Others have mentioned the conflict-of-interest issue … I'm not here to judge anyone's integrity … but the thing is that once the new GUI system is out, NGUI will die a quick death. Of course it has a huge customer base - but why would anyone buy NGUI when the new GUI system is out, and it's awesome?

    And I'm pretty sure that it will be ;-)
     
  28. jashan

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    Yup, that sounds like the most reasonable explanation to me.
     
  29. NTDC-DEV

    NTDC-DEV

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    Being in the room when Michael presented the new GUI at Unite, you could really feel the tension between him and the Unity engineers working with him.

    I don't think NGUI is a bad solution per se but the impression I got at Unite is that the 2D framework team was working in parallel to the 'new GUI' team and, right before Unite, they decided to see how to 'merge' both projects, ending up with a lot of feature duplication (2D mesh creation, sprite atlasing, optimizations). The talk was confusing at best about 'how exactly' is the new GUI different from the 2D framework and how it will be integrated. As a Unity developer, I would had been much more interested in the user-experience aspect, the "Unity Vision" of simple to use / easy to extend. However, the presentation Michael gave was more along the lines of 'It can do X,Y,Z ... just like NGUI", not really an improvement.

    In the end, I can understand the decision under such speculation. They had a strong 2D framework ready for release and didn't need Michael to do any of the core as it was already mostly there. Remove the core from NGUI and it's not an extraordinary solution, just a good one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  30. Tim-C

    Tim-C

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    Hello,

    As you are aware we are still working on the new GUI and targeting a 4.x release. We have done a whole lot of cool things with regards to the layout system, batching, atlasing and optimisation. This has involved a lot of new systems internally in Unity and (as you have noticed) this takes time to get right.

    There are a few things that separates developing a 3'rd party plugin from developing a first party unity feature, and I'll explain about our internal development process here so you can see (some) of the reasons things take longer.
    • We must maintain webplayer backwards compatability. This means that a trivial fix may change how someones existing content looks... we don't allow this and it sometimes means fixes take longer to develop
    • When we ship a new version we should not break users projects (we have to get the API as we can on the first try)
    • All systems we ship have a wide number of automated tests related to them, these take time to write
    • New features go through extensive internal and external usability testing, if it doesn't 'feel' unity we don't ship it.
    • Documentation / Examples / Tutorials

    GUI Specific Stuff
    • GUI uses a whole bunch of new systems, Persistent delegates, New Layout, and Canvas batching. These need to be developed and tested.
    • 'How do we ship it'. We had to change a whole lot of how we build Unity so that:
      • The GUI system is a framework that is easily extended
      • Not tied tightly with Unity version (we hope to be able to ship bug fixes separately from main unity, and not tie it to the webplayer)
    • How open do we make it? Which source will we give access to? and how?
    • Get the API's right
      • All no alloc API's
      • Decent framework to write GUI controls in
      • Solid set of default controls
      • Allow more custom and and advanced controls to be developed by users
      • API that is discoverable (no magic like with MonoBehaviour how Update and Awake just get called with no override, or interface implementation)
      • API that beginner users can understand YET are powerful and flexible enough for advanced users to push to the limit
      • Performance / memory
      • Batching
      • 0-minimal runtime allocation
      • More batching
      • Atlasing
    • Usability
      • For reals we have spent so so much time on this, going back and forward with ideas and designs iterating from feedback. Finding out what works most often and is most intuitive for users.

    I really wish I could get a copy of the new system into your hands right now, but we are sill not quite ready for that. Things are getting very exciting in the office though and we are * close to putting something into your hands.
     
  31. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Good. Chin up and get to it. If I liked NGUI I would have bought it. I don't like it so I didn't. Just personal preference. I am looking for something less awkward and more integrated. Don't disappoint us :)
     
  32. NTDC-DEV

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    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  33. ZJP

    ZJP

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    or...have a Legacy GUI and a new one. You will go as fast as 3'rd party plugin.
    So, given the time taken, hope this will probably be the best GUI ever. Hope...
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  34. jashan

    jashan

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    Well, you really just did ... not a copy of the system, of course, but at least some helpful information on what that system is all about ;-) ... it's really awesome to have that kind of detailed information "right from the lab". Kind of like "in the old days", I guess, which is really awesome. I just have to say "awesome" three times before I call it a day.

    Done ;-)
     
  35. Dabeh

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    If you release this in 4.4 I wonder what you'll have for 4.5.


    Also, thank you for the information, it was a nice read.
     
  36. actuallystarky

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    Thank you Tim C for that post. And thanks to your bosses for letting you make it! :)

    What I find most exciting and illuminating about the info you shared is your checklist for getting the API's right. It's great to see that UT have learnt from the past and are building new API's to a much better standard than the originals.

    It's a shame about backwards compatibility - I'd love to see what UT's modern implementation of the base classes (like MonoBehaviour) would be like.
     
  37. angrypenguin

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    I agree with this.

    And I for one would have absolutely no problem with a new major version of Unity drawing a line in the sand and dropping backwards compatibility with previous versions. There'd be potential porting work arising for legacy projects/code bases that we choose to bring forward, but the potential of that happening is something we have to take into account anyway.
     
  38. Kaji-Atsushi

    Kaji-Atsushi

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    I hope whoever owns the domain isthenewguioutyet.com is ready to update the site to say YES :D.
     
  39. Metron

    Metron

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    I'll update the site once the GUI is out... not before... :p


    Edit: Well... I changed it a little bit :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
  40. Tim-C

    Tim-C

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    This is something a large number of developers at unity would love to see happen. The reality is unfortunately that a lot of users would be up in arms with this. It also means that we have to maintain two release version much more closely (old api vs new api) and gets very difficult. Given the number of people we work with this isn't practical just yet. I do think there will be a time where we will go 'so NOW we have a completely new unity and you will probably have to do some work to get your project to upgrade'. Not sure when that would be though.
     
  41. User340

    User340

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    That'd be fine with me. I mean, if the completely new unity is 10x better that the current one in every way then it would seem totally worth it, to me anyways.
     
  42. Deleted User

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    It's like OpenGL, they had to sort out there API's shortcomings at some point and deprecate the old API. Just give plenty of notice..

    It's not the best Idea to switch versions mid project anyway, also most likely they will have bought the tools (or made them) by now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2014
  43. Dabeh

    Dabeh

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    Other than the issue of maintaining both the old and new version of the API, I don't see the issue. If they're complaining about having to spend time to upgrade your project, they're doing something wrong.
     
  44. Tim-C

    Tim-C

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    So with API's there are a lot of different opinions on what is right. Beginner users want something that's quick and just works, where advanced users want things that are extensible as well as no memory allocating. These are often at odds with one another as the first option (normally) means allocating and returning a new object and the second means preallocating in user land and then passing it in as an argument.

    In addition to this beginner users tend to like magic (Just add void Update to your script and it will be called!) and advanced users want rigor in the api (overriding methods and implementing interfaces to make it very clear what is happening). Add in messy UnityScript syntax for interfaces and generics and it gets even harder.

    Internally we have people who prefer the more beginner approaches as well people that prefer the more advanced approach. I myself prefer the more advanced approach due to the years of software experience and familiarity with following standard software practices. This is difficult for people that are very new to programming though and may be using Unity as a tool to learn some code. Things like implementing interfaces and cryptic errors can just lead to frustration.

    With the GUI framework we have tended towards the more advanced end of the spectrum. We think the framework will be used by a lot of developers for games over the next few years and they will build their own component libraries on top of it. We want to cater to the future of the GUI system and ensuring that it won't sit and rot and never be updated. Also, I have a vested interest in it being more 'engineered' as I'm the one that's going to have to maintain and work on it for the next long time; magic doesn't work so well with refactoring tools as interfaces and overrides.

    A little anecdote about a piece of functionality we added to core unity for the GUI is some more accessible text generation functions. We have a proxy class that lives on the c#->c++ boundary that is responsible for generating text. You pass in the text you want and some settings (style, anchor, ect) and the function generates a vertex array for you for the characters.

    We had to decide on the API for this to users, and a way that it would work nicely for beginners and advanced users. What we ended up with I think is something really nice and does not feel like a compromise. I'll put some code here to show the general idea of how we wrote the API:
    Code (csharp):
    1.  
    2. //creates a text generator, can be used between frames.
    3. //If you want the generator to handle your arrays then it's a good idea to specify a base cache size.
    4. //If you will be managing your own memory specify 0 here!
    5. var generator = new TextGenerator (myString.Length);
    6.  
    7. //will call into c++ and fill out all the text rendering details such as vertex locations, character position and line info
    8. //c++ side. Nothing is done on c# here apart from caching the last used settings.
    9. //will only regenerate if settings != lastUsedSettings
    10. generator.populate (myString, settings);
    11.  
    12. //Now for the niceness:
    13. //This looks like a normal unity call where an array / list is getting allocated and returned.
    14. //This is not actually the case. When you call this function the first time we pull the verts into generator
    15. //and cache them. Subsequent calls will NOT reallocate the array. What is being returned to userland in this
    16. //case is just a ref to the internal array.
    17. //Internally in the generator we use an array, if the generatedverts.Length > cacheArray.Length we will realloc a larger
    18. //array. Otherwise we reuse the existing array. Means that by using this function you will ONLY get allocs if your string
    19. //drastically grows in length. We use this in the GUI as it seems to work very well.
    20. IList<Vertex> verts = generator.GetVerts ();
    21.  
    22. //Memory Pedantic Method
    23. //This will fill the given array with verts. Number of verts filled will be min(numVerts, myArray.Length)
    24. //This allows you to ALWAYS control the memory you are using at the downside of usability.
    25. var numVerts = generator.vertexCount;
    26. var myArray = new Vertex[numVerts];
    27. generator.GetVerts (myArray);
    28.  
    With this I feel like we have both cases covered nicely. Advanced users can have fine grained control of what they are doing, but we also provide a simple API that is also very aloc friendly (i.e it never allocs unless the number of verts grows). Basically it makes it harder for beginner users to do stupid things. :) I hope a lot of our api starts to move in this direction.
     
  45. gregzo

    gregzo

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    Very interesting reads, many thanks to Tim C for letting us in.

    I hope other APIs will take that route: less "magical overrides" and more documentation as to what's happening behind the hood ( yes, I'm looking at you, audio API... )

    Gregzo
     
  46. mrKaizen

    mrKaizen

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    AhAhAh so true.
    (Hope is for sissies :p )
     
  47. User340

    User340

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    I consider myself to be a medium-advanced programmer, and that code you posted doesn't look particularly beginner friendly :). IList<Vertex> would have been very scary for me when I was starting out. Haha, maybe I'm a bit more beginner than I thought.
     
  48. Tim-C

    Tim-C

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    replace with var as required ;)
     
  49. eskimojoe

    eskimojoe

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    @TimC,

    Is it possible to beta-test the new GUI?

    This account has multiple licenses and we got burned buying bad GUI replacements.
     
  50. User340

    User340

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Posts:
    3,001
    niceee, that'll do it.