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Linux Support :D

Discussion in 'Wish List' started by FelixAlias, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. saymoo

    saymoo

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    no:
    Posted: 01:35 PM 2 Weeks Ago (not even close to 5.5. years) posted by maclipse

    Posted: 03:24 PM 3 Hours Ago (not even close to 5.5. years) posted by firemuse

    ---------------------------
     
  2. Eric5h5

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    Yes. The post from Nicholas that FireMuse and you are replying to is 5.5 years old. You think they might realize things have changed since then? Posts that old are pretty much irrelevant and not worth quoting.

    --Eric
     
  3. saymoo

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    ah, ok, now i see what your aiming at. :)

    Ok, granted, rather old indeed.. Didn't realize firemuse quoted such an old post (oops)
     
  4. Eric5h5

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  5. saymoo

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    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  6. d.toliaferro

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    They're probably going to do a big reveal sooner or later.
     
  7. Raid

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    I just registered for one purpose only.. To voice and say "THANK YOU" for developing a Linux edition. For those who say "There's more Windows gamers", it's true, however, the only reason I keep Windows around is to play the games I bought. (Which means I have no choice but to have a Windows System, which means I'm a "Windows Gamer", and unfortunately, add to those stats) .. How many others out there are in the same position, and have no choice but to add to the statistics of Windows Gamers? It's terribly inconvenient to dual boot just to play games. I'm mostly a programmer, but I love playing games. I always wanted to export the Game Engine I wrote to platforms like PS3 and such, but could never afford the dev-kit. This is why I decided to go with another solution. Anyway, congratulations! And thank you again, Unity Team.
     
  8. Tiles

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    Linux OS market share is below 1%*. And most of this 1% is not the primary os. And this 1% is cluttered into dozens of different linux distributions too.

    Linux is an exotic os.It makes simply no sense to use Linux as a target market. Not from the profit point of view, because Linux is traditionally the home of open source users anyways. And not from a hobbyist point of view because of the dozens of different distributions. It would be an enourmous effort to make your game run at just the big distributions. Not to talk about stuff like DirectX or PhysX here ...

    Well, yeah, Linux doesn`t have really good games yet. So here you may have the chance to win with a game that would never really survive under Windows.

    But honestly, i see the bigger chance in html5, and not a native solution. Which should work under Linux too.

    * Source http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2011
  9. Wolfos

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    http://www.humblebundle.com/

    As Unity is very popular with Independent developers, it makes sense to have Linux support.


    I personally do not use Linux, but want to support it very much and I'm happy that you're porting it.
    Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  10. thesaint1987

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    Linux support wouldn't even be necessary, instead you could try to make it WINE compatible, if it isn't already (but then there is nothing to talk about ;). Or provide some guidelines how to make a game WINE compatible...
     
  11. d.toliaferro

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    What are you talking about?

    ShiVa games run on Linux, Unigine games run on Linux, Flash games run on Linux.

    Also, it's already happening, so I don't understand why you would argue against it at this point.

    People generally want to run their games natively.

    Also, why should Unity Technologies throw away the work they've already done for this, just to support Wine better?
     
  12. josef3

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    Instead of discuss for 5 years it could have been ported to LINUX a hundret times.
    Do it or leave it but stop this stupid useless discussion.
    JK
     
  13. Wennid

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    While I am a huge fan of Linux and what it represents, and an anti-fan of Micro$oft and their "business model" (don't get me started...), reality is what it is.
    Unity is ultimately a commercial product. If they don't sell product (or services), they can't pay staff, and Unity as we know it dies. Yes it would be nice to be able to produce Linux binaries directly from Unity, and even nicer to be able to run the Unity editor under a Un*x-based OS (stability, transparency, security, etc, etc...), but as others have said, we just have to accept that its not commercially viable as things stand today.
    Mind you, there is always Wine, and much of the work done for a Unity project could be pulled across to Linux-compatible tools and/or engine(s) if you REALLY wanted to make a native Linux version. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it would certainly be easier than starting again from scratch under Linux, and if you put in the effort figuring out how to get there once, I'm sure it'd be much easier the second, third, etc time around.

    P.S. And yes, more "industrial-scale" developers DO prefer Un*x-based systems. In fact more and more of almost all serious IT industries prefer Un*x-based systems. Micro$oft just aren't very good at OS development (or almost any development - they are mostly good at buying or ripping stuff off and selling it under their own brand - not nice, but it makes money and they aren't the only ones to do business this way), and no Micro$oft OS is very stable or secure compared to almost any realistic alternative. On the other hand, for amateur and indie scale development in the real world, Windoze is often the way to go because of Micro$oft's "brute-force" dominance of the (largely non-IT-savvy) marketplace.
     
  14. Eric5h5

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    Run it on OS X, then, which not only is Unix-based, it's actual certified Unix.

    --Eric
     
  15. Kronykus

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    Sorry, I've been looking at possibly using Unity for an upcoming project, and I've been reading up on it and decided to look here and see if Linux support is included, planned, whatever... I ran across this thread and had to join just to comment on your response. As a "Super-Moderator", I would expect a more professional response than, "Run it on OS X...". Are you really suggesting that people wanting *nix quality, should ditch their current hardware AND OS, buy a Mac and run OS X, vs. say downloading and installing Linux? If I have a working Linux environment, on a well-tested/maintained/backed-up system, switching to any other OS is trivial. Why would I scrap that to pay Apple for the right to use *nix?

    I'm not sure what to think about Unity at this point, if this is in any way representative of the mind-set of the staff. If you're not going to support it then simply say so and leave it at that. If you do plan to support it, then say it's open for discussion, but saying just use brand x rather than brand y isn't productive, and in IMHO, very unprofessional.

    :-|
     
  16. Eric5h5

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    I'm sorry you found it so. I'm not part of the Unity staff, I'm just a moderator who occasionally deletes spam and closes duplicate topics. My opinions have nothing to do with Unity Technologies. In any case, the post wasn't directed at you, it was in reply to Wennid, who expressed interest in running Unity on a Unix-based OS (not specifically Linux), and may not be aware that OS X is Unix (even after all this time, some people think of the old MacOS). It wasn't a comment about Unity on Linux.

    --Eric
     
  17. Denamo

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    I believe adding Linux support could be commercially viable. Of course there is a risk involved, but there also a chance for a dominant Linux game market share.

    There are a couple of common misunderstandings about Linux as a game platform that I also read on this post.

    1) First of market share of all games sold is not comparable with the market of developers interested in unity game development tools. Unity sells it's product to the developer not the end user. If I make a game with unity I would like it to be available on as many platforms as possible. If the platform does not have many games then that's a good thing for me, as it means less competition.
    (Rovio's Angry Birds big success started on a Nokia handheld not iPhone. Because there wasn't that many good games featured on Nokia phones they got loads of attention and marketing that way.)

    2) Linux user are indeed willing to pay for games although they use a lot of open source products. In fact they are usually willing to pay more than Mac or Windows users. You don't have to take my word for it, go to Humble Bundle dot com and take a look at the sales statistics your self.(http://www.humblebundle.com/)
    From the statistics you can see that the average payment per game is on Linux is 11.99$, Mac 7.52$, Win 4.78$. The statistics are a bit misleading because many of the titles had there mac and Linux day-view, but clearly Linux users are willing to pay for games. As for the total income, it currently is roughly Win 60%, Linux 20%, Mac 20%.

    3) Having more than one distros means more work for the developer, but it is nothing that cannot be done. This is where Unity could help the developers by already supplying them whit a tried and tested run-time environment. It is possible to make Linux native executables that run on all up to date disrtibutions, all games Included in the humble bundle are proof of that.
     
  18. Kronykus

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    I never suggested it was directed at me, I just wanted to point out how your post could appear to people on the outside that happen to stumble across the thread, as I did. I understand forum moderators usually aren't directly tied to the company, but many people do not.

    Sorry if I came across confrontational. I've been looking at Unity really closely and have pretty much decided to use it. It looks to be an extremely well thought out game building system, and I'm truly looking forward to diving into it. I'm willing to concede that I may have read your post the wrong way, but after re-reading your post and the one you were commenting on, I still walk away with the same impression. Just trying to help. Carry on...

    Anyway, you are correct. Some people are not aware of OS X's relationship to Unix.
     
  19. npsf3000

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    And developers get paid by delivering games to their consumers, there is a huge wishlist of features for unity, Linux support is not at the top for *most* developers.

    So out of $2Mn... 20% of that is linux?

    That's your example to show a thriving game market on linux? 30k users?

    Take a single, moderately successful PC game and you're talking orders of magnitude more customers/revenue.

    If that's the showing from a game starved platform... it's not something to be happy about.

    Not against Linux support, just putting things into perspective.
     
  20. TomHunt

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    I have a pro license, love Unity so far, but have been waiting for Linux support for a while now. "No announced plans" is the answer I get from the Unity folks. Linux is a long-term requirement for me, from a business perspective.

    Maybe you're right - maybe I should start learning Shiva, just to be on the safe side..
     
  21. VCCGeek

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    Five years, nine months, and one day running so far. I think this thread has qualified for immortality.

    Or at least, the grand geezer of all threads. :)

    To add something of value to the discussion, though, I think that UT is in a rather unique position. With the (well-deserved) massive success they've had, it's possible that it's within reach for them to *make* Linux gaming successful and widespread. Now, does that translate to real-world dollars? I have no idea, and that's why they're not leaping at it - because they don't either. Companies don't like risks - publicly traded or otherwise.

    All said and done, I think it would revolutionize gaming to do so. If nothing else, when hundreds of games start coming out on the Linux platform, other devs are going to say, "hmmm, am I missing something?"

    Honestly, I don't know the answer. But it would be dang nice to have Linux support. Even if it's just the player.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  22. steego

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    Well, with 4.5 times as many votes as the next item at http://feedback.unity3d.com/forums/15792-unity (currently 7796 to 1704 votes) I would somewhat disagree...
     
  23. npsf3000

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    7796 votes /2.77 average = <3k people.

    Unity claim to have over *active* 150k developers, 500k+ all up.

    Then of course, just because you put a point on linux, doesn't mean there isn't something you'd prefer more.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  24. darkfly

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    I would love to see the support, the player at least
     
  25. steego

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    Yes but there aren't 150k registered users on the feedback site, so it enters the domain of statistics and to which degree the voters on the feedback site can be seen as a representative selection of the 150k Unity developers. There's probably not enough information to apply any reasonable statistical mathematics to this, but consider if even half the votes for linux support are bogus votes it would still be the highest voted item.
     
  26. Loudmask

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    Linux WOULD be a nice new platform for video games in Unity. I run it once in a while.
     
  27. npsf3000

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    Ignoring the questions about the representativeness of unity answers...

    I never said it wouldn't be the highest voted item, merely that if you interviewed a bunch of devs and gave them real options very few would have 'linux' as their No. 1. Some would want 2D, others GUI, others VOIP, others better networking, others different platform (PSP?), others dx11 etc. :p
     
  28. artisanicview

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    Why you don't put the things in perspective. As an Indie/semiPRO developer I will be more than happy to sell my games to 30k peoples. And lets face-it. All the big names you are referring about are made by big studios with a lot of $$$ and PR, and who are also using much more expensive game engines to achieve their goal.

    Also I stumbled upon the humblebundle3 page and I counted exactly 372,393 bundles sold with a total income of $2,168,941.22. If from the total number of 372k users, 20% are Linux ones this will be 74k. Maybe for the big studios this numbers are insignificant but from an Indie developer point of view, the possibility to have 74k customers, is something to take into account. And if you enter into a small market with good games you can sale more than into a big one but also oversaturate with a lot of big names.
     
  29. hippocoder

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    This currently means I am potentially earning 2,094,941 instead of 2,168,941, which is a tiny blimp in the landscape, or in a scale that makes sense: I am earning 20 dollars instead of 21 dollars. All that tells me is I would need to be as successful as the tiny indie bundle (which is a collossal success) in order to see any sales from linux at all, whatsoever. It is a dismal failure for business on any scale.

    However having said that, if I made 2,000 I would have 100 from linux sales, which is still free money. The problem here is you're pitting 70k against 2 million, and scaling that down to sane levels (ie normal indie sales) you're looking at very little money coming in.

    How about a stronger argument for it: unity could be the go-to guy for linux. It could make linux take off big time for the big boys. That makes sense. Currently, very few AAA publishers support linux because it's so difficult to mantain an engine and codebase for, once the engine and codebase is large enough.

    In unity's case they've got mono, so if they could push out a linux version, we could see a lot more people using linux, a lot more boxed sales supporting linux, and fully be able to declare it is democratic game development.

    The business simply isn't there right now, no matter how much you'll scream and shout from the rooftops. But unity could make that market be there (if that makes sense). The onus is on unity to make the first move and bravely support this platform.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2011
  30. artisanicview

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    P.S. And one more thing:

    Also to quote from the humblebundle site, the average Linux user is paying 12$, almost three times more than the average Windows user and almost twice the price paid by Mac users, in condition that no one is constrained to pay a fixed amount of money for the games.

    "Average Windows: $4.89
    Average Mac: $7.73
    Average Linux: $12.03"

    In this conditions if I ask the Windows customers to pay 12$ for a bundle more than probably that only half will pay that amount. But as the numbers are, this is what I see: 74400*12$=892800$ (Linux) versus 223200*4,9$=1093680$ (Windows). Not bad at all if I can address to a market that can produce almost the same amount of income produced from the windows platform.
     
  31. saymoo

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    Not this myth again... MYTH, nothing more.

    The real reason for AAA Publisher/Developer do not support Linux, is not because it's too difficult or unmaintainable, but it's all about "pretended high" investments needing to be done towards a currently "unknown" territory (will they earn it back?). it's not higher in cost to port it to OSX than to Linux, infact it's easier to port to Linux than OSX (if you ask Icculus).

    Publishers/Developers are like a hurd of sheep, once a few jump over the fence, the rest will follow.
    We need some publishers that actually dare to jump of the fence.. The rest will slowly follow. Kind of a chicken/egg situation. OSX/IOS anyone? (for years it was not even thinkable that games would be there for Apple platforms (big titles), and once some publishers started to support it, others followed = popular increase by tenfold

    Also there is some influence under the table that prevents it from happening.
    Look at Epic Games, they have supported Linux as target, for years. But as soon as GOW came into play, and MS being the publisher, the Linux support was vanished like smoke in air.
    The publisher did not (they admitted it), like Linux to be supported, and forbid Epic to make a native linux binary for the game. Epic kept silent about it (might have to do with the contract they signed)

    and last but not least:
    they (publishers/developrs) have the wrong vision towards Opensource, they need to be retrained on that subject. E.g. opensource = free = no income myth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2011
  32. artisanicview

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    Also I think that under the table is a big pressure from MS and Apple side. They are OK to share the money between them, mutually is supporting each other, but when is about Linux not MS or Apple want to support. They don't want Linux to cut they market-share and for that can make almost anything. They just don't want people to be free. And to be free doesn't mean to don't pay for goods. Just take a look at Cory Doctorow's speech from this year SIGGRAPH and you will understand a LOT: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfU6e6--izo. Worth watching 46min, to understand better the Apple&Co politics.
     
  33. npsf3000

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    Great!

    Except... you'd have to fight with the other 150k Unity devs to reach that 30k. Remember - the argument I've heard a lot is that there are little to no games readily available for linux. As soon as you saturate that market...
     
  34. I am da bawss

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    I would say its pretty useless to support Linux.



    Its one of the market sector which shows no growth for more than a decade now. At 2.07% with VAST MAJORITY OF THEM being server farms and render farms, with just a system admin behind it. Its completely illogical to support a platform when there are VERY VERY FEW people who ACTUALLY USE IT. (Probably less than 1% of that 2.07% are actual Linux users)

    Last not the least people who use Linux are those people who does not want to pay for their operating system software! What makes ANYONE wants to invest in a sector when people are adamant not wanting to pay for software?! There is NO profit to be make in Linux game development. Just ask anyone who actually got rich making Linux-only game. There is none.

    My point is that if Linux wants to be taken seriously as a platform it has to be able to survive by itself as a profitable platform for developers.

    Unity Technologies is much better to use its limited resources to focus on other more critical core features to improve Unity that actually have users and generate value for its customers. Not this Linux nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  35. Eric5h5

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    The majority of Windows installations are things like point of sale machines and offices full of computers that do nothing but run Word.

    That's apparently a chart of web usage. So 100% of that 2.07% are actual users. Render farms don't browse the web, last I heard. Anyway, it's not a very good indicator of what's worth investing in. iOS only has a slightly larger percentage on that chart, but iOS publishing for Unity has been a big success.

    Did you not read any of the last page of posts at all? http://www.humblebundle.com/ Look at the bottom. Look at the percentage of purchases by operating system. Look at which users pay the least (Windows) and which users pay the most (Linux). With the first bundle, you could pass it off as a fluke, but this is the third, and the results have been very consistent with each one. I'm not a Linux user, but it's obvious to anyone rational that it's worth having Unity support it as a target platform.

    --Eric
     
  36. I am da bawss

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    You are interpreting the charts wrong.
    Windows users paying "the least" actually amplely demonstrated my point. If you look to the right, the pie chart clearly indicate Windows users are the most numerous contributors to the total payments representing the most realistic market condition. While there are definitely quite a few Linux diehards who made enormous payments to the Humble Indie Bundle just because they are rich and they can which dramatically "distorts" the statistics. It doesn't remove the fact that Linux is a growth stagnant platform, with few diehards propping it up.

    If you can publish your game to any platform, Windows would represent the most realistic as the most numerous users who pays the fair price, while with Linux segment you can only hope to get large "donations" (and if your game is fixed price like in THE REAL WORLD, forget about it! you will get little to nothing to even cover your own cost).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  37. Eric5h5

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    Not at all.

    That's not a fact; it's the opposite of a fact. You're just making assumptions because of bias. Also it directly contradicts what you just said about Linux users supposedly never paying for anything.

    The Humble Indie Bundles are very much part of the real world. Don't think for a second that the "put stuff on a shelf for $9.99" pricing model is the only one that exists...if you don't keep up, you get left behind. On my site, for example, I offer two different prices for the same product, and people are honest enough that the pro versions account for at least 50% of the total revenue. No Linux publishing target for Unity means no Unity games can be part of these bundles.

    --Eric
     
  38. I am da bawss

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    Well, all I can say to you is..... give me a buzz when you got rich making Linux game. ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  39. saymoo

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    Well, that buzz can be sooner than you think;)

    just look at the Apple support, shall we? A few years ago, Apple was just for serious applications (elitist biased usage). No serious publisher would think of putting a game on OSX/IOS. Now, we are a few years further, and see what happened. Some Publishers dare the jump over the fence, others followed.
    And now it starts to become a serious platform to support. In other words, the viscious circle has been broken, the chicken and egg situation was solved... AKA: evolution began.

    Now for other developers Like UT, to jump over the fence ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  40. I am da bawss

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    Apple's reverse of fortune was largely due to the tremendous popularity of iPhone (and other iDevices) - a market that's being engineered and designed from the start. It was new, it was hyped, it is elegant and it is super simple to use - its consumer friendly (!) - thus it gained critical momentum right off the start. Long before major publishers jumped into iOS, there were already a huge home brew scene on iPhone before App Store was a reality, and the mobile gaming and indie gaming market was already maturing with a lot of JAVA/Symbian developers ready to jump in. It was all those combinations that made it possible.

    Linux on the other hand is too technical, too nerdy, too far off mainstream, and the worst of all, tired platform. Its hyped to be the next biggest thing for 2 decades now, it already long lost its momentum to be mainstream. Its not new, its fragmented. The biggest problem for Linux is you can't sell it to consumer as it is not "sexy". Its long pass its sexiness.

    It needs a new repackaging, a new paradigm. And that's exactly what Google did - and its called ANDROID. :D

    And Unity already supports Android. So give it up guys. There is no market for Linux. I am sure if Unity really wants to, they can port Unity to Linux within a week years ago, but they don't, because they probably did market analysis and concluded its dead market to support.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  41. steego

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    Well my point is, until you do interview a representative selection of Unity developers, we won't know that for sure. What I believe you are doing is speaking out of conviction, you and those you know might not put Linux as number 1, but that doesn't mean the majority shares the same view. Until you have done an interview, the feedback site is the best we've got, and while it doesn't prove the majority would put linux as their numer 1, I would say it strongly suggests Linux support is the most wanted feature.

    On a side note, I would say that currently multiplatform support is Unitys biggest selling point compared to for example UDK, and especially for Indie developers where every sale counts a one-click-to-publish for as many platforms as possible can only be for the good.
     
  42. hippocoder

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    Difference is that ios is growing like that, and linux is staying the same after decades. It's had a chance to grow, it simply isn't.

    Eric I appreciate your passion but its in no way realistic to compare the indie bundle with what sales you'd get. The indie bundle is massively, massively publicised. It basically is reaching every possible linux user possible.

    I appreciate and want linux, but I still think that unity has to make the first move, for that platform to become viable: that is, unity would make linux cool and interesting again, like carmack did when he supported it back in the day.

    Put simply, if linux was available as a $400 module, I'd buy it. I wouldn't pay more, but I'd pay that. Or just limit linux support to indie pro to give more incentives.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  43. Eric5h5

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    So, you don't want to be part of that? Why not? (Also, it's not unrealistic to compare it to other sales. World of Goo had 10% Linux sales, and the Penumbra games had 12% Linux sales. Also, http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/The-state-of-Mac-and-Linux-gaming)

    --Eric
     
  44. npsf3000

    npsf3000

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    Because it's a tiny market.

    Let's assume there are 1MN potential linux users(far far more than humble bundle)... the unity webplayer has 60MN.

    I'd rather target the 5.6% of Steam users that have DX11, or ad VoIP to the webplayer or or or or.... :(


    And I'd point to the general forum chatter... and the fact unity3d supports PC, MAC, WEB, PS3, XBOX360, IOS, ANDROID etc. (some of which i'd assume are technically harder to implement) and yet not Linux as an indication of priority.

    I've nothing against linux... but no-one can show any real demand while there are perfectly good features that people are wanting with a demonstrable market. Remembering of course, that linux support IS coming.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  45. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

    Volunteer Moderator Moderator

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    I don't think you understand. As I stated, it's currently not possible for a Unity game to be part of the Humble Indie Bundles. That's a shame, because those are great opportunities for good indie games.

    They can already play Unity games.

    Why do you keep ignoring the stats? Seriously, read this: http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/The-state-of-Mac-and-Linux-gaming

    --Eric
     
  46. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape

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    If it's so important, why hasn't unity acted yet? that is the question.
     
  47. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

    Volunteer Moderator Moderator

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  48. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    How about let's have a show of hands and see HOW MANY people who demands to have Linux build target actually holds Unity PRO license? :D

    I will bet even IF UT supports Linux build, people are going to DEMAND THAT TO BE FREE !!
    ("HEY BRO IT SHOULD BE FREE LIKE UNITY FREE WHICH CAN PUBLISH TO PC AND MAC OSX SO WHY NOT LINUXXXXXXX PLEASE PLEASE PLEASSSSEEE")

    It just piss me off when people incessantly WHINING for features when they are not even paying customers in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  49. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    Who's talking about porting Unity to Linux? This is about a Linux build target.

    --Eric
     
  50. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    Linux build target was what I meant.

    So, how about let's have a show of hands and see HOW MANY people who demands to have Linux build target actually holds Unity PRO license?

    I would say Linux's market is so insignificant it doesn't warrant UT's time to support Linux as feature which surely people will demand that for free.

    How about this, UT charge Linux build (just like they do with Android and iOS) for $1500 ?? Would you agree?

    NOW LET'S HAVE ANOTHER SHOW OF HANDS WHO WISH TO HAVE LINUX BUILD TARGET.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011