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iPhone OS4 today

Discussion in 'iOS and tvOS' started by maxfax2009, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. funxed

    funxed

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    The iPhone OS doesn't have a shared library/DLL system (not one that App Store apps can make use of anyway). So what do you mean by "bloats up the global runtime"? Each App is bundled into its own complete package that doesn't do anything to the "global runtime".

    Seriously, there is so much misinformation being spread about this by people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about technically. Apple did this because they are are the corporate equivalent of a whiny temper-tantrum-throwing baby and they want to slam Adobe off of the iPad/iPhone AT ANY COST.

    Period. End of Discussion. There is no technical justification for what they are doing here, this is all about exerting control just because they can.
     
  2. MadMax

    MadMax

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    None of the links you provided suggest to me that this is about multitasking. I really doubt that Apple is doing anything unique here. I think it a rather huge leap of faith to suggest that Unity could not make multitasking work if they are allowed access to the API.

    In fact, one of your links says.

     
  3. codinghero

    codinghero

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    I gotta say, there's nothing quite like hearing your wife call for help, and running into the living room to find that your six month-old son has somehow managed to cover himself and a portion of your newly carpeted floor in his own feces. Somehow I'm not quite so concerned about Apple's little game at the moment. :D
     
  4. MadMax

    MadMax

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    Seriously dude why are you posting this go help your wife.
     
  5. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    I doubt it. ;) In the absence of an actual statement from Apple saying "We wrote that clause because ________" (which is unlikely to be forthcoming), it's all just speculation. The actual reason could well be something that nobody has even thought of yet.

    --Eric
     
  6. codinghero

    codinghero

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    Well obviously. :D I actually just finished scrubbing the carpet while she hosed off the kid. Ah, the miracle of life...
     
  7. aaronsullivan

    aaronsullivan

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    How is that possible?
    From the first link:
    And the second article helps explain how this could be possible:
    BTW, I didn't suggest it was unique at all. From reading the previous article on his blog, I knew it wasn't unique before the iPhone OS 4 event was over. That quote at the bottom of your post is disproving something I didn't suggest.
     
  8. WillBellJr

    WillBellJr

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    I don't know if that's true - my jist of the agreement is you can't develop applications that are not directly Objective C etc., or basically that's not compiled using THEIR development tools.

    Using Unity is not creating code directly using their development languages or tools (C#, Javascript, Boo, etc.)

    Apple wants iPhone / iPad apps written solely using Apple computers and software.


    The thing that gets me though, is to develop a 3D game w/physics and stuff directly coding in Objective C or whatever will be pretty much going back to developing your own 3D engine from scratch??!!

    The time and technical barriers there alone will crush developers left and right.

    I find it interesting that this bomb was dropped AFTER they raked in all that iPad money on release day!

    And of course they knew of all the hopeful CS5 developers riding on their dreams, buying iPads left and right - I've seen folks saying they bought 10 iPads for CS5 development. (I hope they can return them without restocking fees, if at all...)

    Then there's the folks here solely doiing Unity/iPhone development.

    Unity iPhone is definitely at risk of being squashed - who would buy in now with all these clouds over head? Pain is being felt over this...



    The only out I see for Unity is if Apple feels that 3D games is a successful market (it puts money in their pocket basically.)

    But then if "3D" is given a pass using Unity, then what about strictly 2D games?

    Adobe could argue that Flash and Unity 2D should be treated similarly.

    I know this is kicking folks the way I felt when Macromedia was sold to Adobe and Softimage was thrown away to Autodesk.

    I'm sorry to say we've been cursed by living in some interesting times for sure...

    -Will
     
  9. MadMax

    MadMax

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    1: Simple serialization is not multitasking.

    2: Smart multitasking sounds like weasel words to me. Unless Apple has somehow developed the holy grail of multithreading, however this does not seem to be the case. Notice how they keep saying multitasking vs multithreading.
     
  10. jerrodputman

    jerrodputman

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    No, you DIDN'T read it. Not closely enough. It's okay though as most of the developers over on the Apple forums are confused about the multi-tasking as well. Let's just say that all Unity developers will STILL have to do our saving the old PlayerPrefs way.
     
  11. Troy-Dawson

    Troy-Dawson

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    The memory footprint of the app. Precisely because the flash runtime isn't a shared DLL, each Flash-derived app will bring in a complete copy of the flash runtime into its memory space. Bloat bloat bloat.

    The funny thing is upon re-reading the multitasking docs there's a single line that stands out as highly relevant for Unity apps. It's the first bullet-point of "Being a Responsible, Multitasking-Aware Application". :)
     
  12. EricJ13

    EricJ13

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    Maybe they are working on their own IDE to work in tandem with Xcode for game dev? I mean, we already use Macs and Xcode to make games using Unity. What else is there for them to sell us?
     
  13. MadMax

    MadMax

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    :roll: :wink: netbook syndrome anyone ?
     
  14. jerrodputman

    jerrodputman

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    Ding ding ding ding ding! And that's why this isn't about multi-tasking.

    edit: Of course, I would assume that Flash would use the same method to render, so the same would apply to a Flash app too.

    edit 2: This guy below me VVVV also proves my point.
     
  15. codinghero

    codinghero

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    Regarding the multi-tasking argument, did I miss something in the TOS that specifically states that all apps must be multi-tasking aware? Because in their "What's new in 4.0" doc it specifically states that apps are not required to support multi-tasking. Therefor, unless the TOS contradicts their own release notes, Sections 3.3.1,2 can't be all about multi-tasking.
     
  16. WillBellJr

    WillBellJr

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    Well that's not totally true because I'm on the Windows platorm and my target dreams have always been desktop and XBox. (I can also now consider Web thanks to Unity. :wink: )

    While I love my iPhone (and only because of the great apps), I've never liked Apple and frankly, the iPhone is my 1st and only Apple purchase.

    So I've never had deep desires to target Apple platforms (except to cash in on some of the apps market.)

    Picture me (on the Windows platform) being able to target the Apple platform and successfully get stuff running - they'd have a fit!

    Apple definitely doesn't want Windows Users poking in on their pristine, Made for Apple ON Apple virginity.

    -Will
     
  17. joew

    joew

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    I do actually. It's called their SEC quarterly reports, earnings statements, and corporate reports. You can easily see the numbers show that without selling their software on the Apple platform they are negative revenue by a large amount. All of the documents are made public and accessible according to SEC regulations.
     
  18. Troy-Dawson

    Troy-Dawson

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    Well, I think/hope it is and it isn't. If unity apps restart upon resume, that's fine since unity apps are supposed to be time sinks -- ie GAMES -- and not lightweight in out apps.

    Adobe's problem is that Flash is a UIKit competitor, presenting a UIKit-like UE. Users will want to suspend many if not most CS5-built apps, and to do so will require the flash VM to remain resident for each suspension.

    Apple rightfully wants to nip this direction in the bud, since the two alternatives (Flash apps suspend nicely / Flash apps get blown away) are inferior to people targeting UIKIt.

    Flash game apps are the exception here, but as a Unity developer I say keep Flash game apps off the platform anyway :)
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax

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    Sounds like adobe is excessively dependent on Apple; time to start killing off the platform. In a controlled manner.
     
  20. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @joew, I was talking about agreeing to disagree on what users would do if Adobe stopped supporting Photoshop on Mac. There's no way to know unless you're at least a quasi-deity, and there's no point in guessing since it's unlikely to happen. We don't need another 15 pages devoted to speculative fortune telling for hypothetical situations do we?
     
  21. VIC20

    VIC20

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    to be honest i guess most of us does not care about why, they just want to know if we have a problem. It's not our job to fix it if possible - we will do the moderators a great gift by stopping to talk about it unless we have more official information or confirmed rejects. I just saw another unity game pop up in the updates. There was a deadline to approve the new agreement, possibly this is the date when rejections start. I will try to hurry to save my current mini project by releasing it before that day has come. Looking forward is the best you can do now except you have other work to do.
     
  22. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @VIC20, why all the fuss over approvals and such? You realize they miss things a lot of the time and that they can remove previously approved apps right?
     
  23. Morgan

    Morgan

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    Thanks—that will do for now, until Apple makes things clearer. UT is as being professional and thoughtful as always. I for one intend to spend my weekend worrying about other things. Such as what to name the folders I will FINALLY get to put on my iPhone! And what haircut to get for iPhone video calls this summer!
     
  24. joew

    joew

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    That is what I meant. They would continue to use the applications on the Mac as Adobe would be bankrupt if they stopped supporting the platform and there would be no Windows version... no reason to switch. And I'm actually the one that is *not* fortune telling as I already stated it is an *impossible* situation as the company would BK without Apple platform sales. Don't take my word for it read the reports.
     
  25. billyzelsnack

    billyzelsnack

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    People keep bringing up a similar point, but it does not matter. Apple can pick and choose at will who/what they allow in the app store. It's their store. They can choose whatever arbitrary reasons.
     
  26. MadMax

    MadMax

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    Adobe may have to cut some fat but it has a lot of fat to cut.
     
  27. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @joew, so you actually presume to tell me that you speak for every single Mac-based Adobe CS user on the planet? Seriously? I've worked with several companies who switched from Mac to Windows just because they were tired of paying extra for a pretty logo, but you think that not a single user would either a) switch, or b) run it in a vm? It must be tough knowing everything, man. So where and when are you going to die anyway?
     
  28. joew

    joew

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    Actually no you just have a reading comprehension problem. I said they wouldn't switch because the situation would not happen, it is literally impossible for that to even occur so we have no need to talk about it. Now you are just trying to derail into some odd switching from Mac because of cost rant so I'm out :)
     
  29. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @joew, dude, I already said they'd never switch and that we should just quit since it's all hypothetical, but then you said you knew for a fact that no one would switch. I even said, "...what users would do if Adobe stopped supporting Photoshop on Mac," and you said, yes that's what you were talking about as well. Apparently you're the one with a reading comprehension problem, hoss. But you can't even comprehend your own words? :?
     
  30. jzaun

    jzaun

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    Hi all, I have a quick questions:

    Has a current iPhone developer called apple and asked them if Unity is or is not accepted under the new license? I'm not a current developer or I would call them myself.
     
  31. WillBellJr

    WillBellJr

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    Absolutely, that goes without saying.

    The position I was considering is litigation from Adobe over unfair treatment due to companies like Unity and others receiving get out of jail free cards...

    Now Apple may opt to have a "special certification fee" - basically a royality or some kind of additional payment for them to let you in the gate but that sounds just as grimey as the ToS.

    Apple is going to do whatever suits their pocket - it'll be interesting to watch how all this plays out...

    -Will
     
  32. billyzelsnack

    billyzelsnack

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    Sure. You can sue anybody for anything in the US, but you're not going to get any sympathy from a judge because of "unfair treatment."
     
  33. codinghero

    codinghero

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    If one has they haven't said so. Supposedly, reps from various middleware companies including Garage Games and Unity Tech have attempted to contact Apple with no luck.

    Personally, I've never been able to get an AppStore rep on the phone. I've sent numerous emails, but their response times have varied (unrelated to the subject matter) anywhere from four(4) hours to two(2) months. No, I'm not exaggerating.

    I'll say one thing for UT (and GG), at least their community reps are keeping the public informed. Shiva's official response was, "Don't worry." :?

    Actually they can't ban one specific company (a la Adobe) from doing business on their platform. Discriminatory business practices and all that good stuff. Hence the vague TOS.
     
  34. billyzelsnack

    billyzelsnack

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    A quick search for "Discriminatory business practices" only showed hits for Canadia. Not conclusive evidence of my claim or anything, but I'd think something like that would show up more prominent in a search. I'm curious now if I'm totally full of it. I'd like to see some info on the matter if anybody knows the magic search terms.
     
  35. techmage

    techmage

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    I guess that means it's time for.... ANDROID
     
  36. ColossalDuck

    ColossalDuck

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    Not yet. But the future will soon tell.
     
  37. codinghero

    codinghero

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  38. Melonsoda

    Melonsoda

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    The Android market will improve and grow. Its just a matter of time that the Android market became that popular like the appstore.

    I don't care whats going on with those f***d up terms for Apple's new iPhone OS.
    Steve should go to hell with his cocky attitude. I thinking about to switch back to Windows machines :D
     
  39. billyzelsnack

    billyzelsnack

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    That article looked like it was related to adding regulations, not generic practices.

    Wow google is fast. My freak'n post quoting "discriminatory business practices" already shows up!
     
  40. Venkman

    Venkman

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    Sorry to get off topic, but what is "Unity 2D?" A 2d only game engine made by the Unity folks?

    If it's too OT, I'd love a PM instead.

    Back to regularly scheduled programming.... ;)
     
  41. Mandrake

    Mandrake

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    Another fascinating clause regarding the agreement itself:

    10.4 Press Releases and Other Publicity. You may not issue any press releases or make any other public statements regarding this Agreement, its terms and conditions, or the relationship of the parties without Apple’s express prior written approval, which may be withheld at Apple’s discretion.

    That is so obnoxious.

    !!!!
     
  42. Melonsoda

    Melonsoda

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    I getting more and more disgusted with Apple...
     
  43. Lka

    Lka

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    No Unity, no iPad for me, I'll save to get a new Android phone.
    Thanks Apple.
     
  44. Esila

    Esila

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    me too!!!!!!!!!!
     
  45. scinfu

    scinfu

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    Android !!!!!!!!!!

    I wanted to buy 2 iMacs 27" and 2 iPads ... :roll: better to wait ...

    Apple remove google written from safari . :roll: :roll:
     
  46. bitomule

    bitomule

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    Someone tested unity games on 4.0? And remote? Should they work?
     
  47. funxed

    funxed

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    Firstly, you're wrong on the technical aspect because the Flash publishing tool only pulls in the parts of the runtime that actually get used, not the entire runtime.

    And secondly, the same exact object code duplication (that you call "bloat") is true for Unity too, genius.

    Also the fact that apps will have some duplicated code from their respective original runtimes is completely not relevant to this discussion because it is ALSO true even for native code that relies on third party libraries (which is basically all of them). Eg. every Cocos2D game on the app store has duplicated object code from the engine in there. bloat, bloat bloat!
     
  48. Hanford

    Hanford

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    I hope that the people posting things like "If Unity is banned, I'll never buy Apple again" keep the "F*** Apple" attitude even when Unity is cleared of all this and allowed on the iPhone.

    Apple has proven themselves a company that cannot be trusted. Again and again. You can't bank your business on Apple alone. You can't write a business plan around them, as they guarantee you nothing and will push you aside in an instant.

    They've never shied away from this; we've been reading stories about it for years now. Developers getting rejected for the most stupid and inconsistent reasons. The fact is Apple simply does not care about you. Anyone who hasn't seen this coming has been in denial regarding all the recent app store bullshit. ("They Came First for the Fart Apps, and I didn't speak up because I didn't make Fart Apps ... ")

    Do you think your game is good? You should think that, if you're bothering to develop it. So, if it's good on the iPhone, then it should be good on OSX. On Windows. On Android. Good games are good games.

    Do not forget: it is not you who needs Apple. It is Apple who needs you. Your games will be awesome and successful on any platform you release them on -- there's nothing special or magical about the iPhone that will make a game better. If anything, the competition is more fierce on iPhone than any other platform at the moment. Right now the iPhone is more hit-driven than anything else.

    There is no doubt in my mind that Unity will only continue to EXPAND their supported platforms. Unity isn't banking just on Apple. You shouldn't either. The people here claiming they might have wasted 10s of thousands of dollars are being narrow minded.If you've got a game developed in Unity, then you have a game that can be deployed to many, many different platforms, and has the potential to be successful on all of them. To believe the iPhone is the only platform you can make money on is near-sighted. And if your business plan requires millions of sales to turn a profit, then you should go (back) to business school. Reliable businesses are not grand-slam-home-run dependent.

    I'm not going to give up on iPhone, but I will not (and never have) banked on it, or targeted it specifically. I wish everyone here success. But success does not require Apple.

    When all this blows over I hope you remember how Apple has F***ed developers and how they almost F***ed all of you.


    ~Hanford
     
  49. luisanton

    luisanton

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    Hanford: It is not that the iPhone is magical or makes applications better... But it's true that it's much easier selling something on that platform that in any other. Most users simply have to press 'buy' and that's it. No bank accounts, no transferences, nothing. Just a click and the application is yours. And just this, for any developer, is a tasty cake.

    Yes, the PS3 network works similarly, but there are not millions of people out there with a PS3 on their pocket...

    However, I agree with you in almost everything else. You shoudn't put all your eggs in the same basket.
     
  50. MonkeyDead Studios

    MonkeyDead Studios

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    Slightly off-topic (if it's too much then a PM reply is fine)

    Basically I was planning on buying a Mac today as well as basic Unity iPhone and although I fully believe that this whole licence mess will just blow over silently I would just like to know if it is possible to author games for Windows within Unity on a Mac? As I think I would like to make the switch over to OSX anyway.