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How important is a TOD system?

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by Deleted User, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Deleted User

    Deleted User

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    In the context of a modern RPG? It causes a lot of technical issues and I suppose games like Batman got away with not bothering.. Although they're generally set over the course of a night (gotta admit, a very long night at that)..

    I understand the technicals, I'm interested in the player impact.
     
  2. orb

    orb

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    Tarts of Doom? Telemetry Over Divination? Ticks on Diazepam? I think that acronym isn't obvious enough that everybody knows - I certainly don't :)
     
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  3. Deleted User

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    Time of day :p.. Lol "Tarts of doom"..
     
  4. orb

    orb

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    Ah, that would be ToD then ;)

    Yeah, that really depends on your game. If using complete systems like UniStorm you have it all covered, including the hooks needed for NPC schedules. Very handy in a complex open world RPG, not so hot in a shooter or ARPG.

    The biggest problem with a schedule is when shops close. It's basically the reason I end up being the biggest thief in Cyrodiil when playing Elder Scrolls games. I just can't sit around waiting for shops to open when there are damsels to fight and orcs to rescue.

    The biggest argument FOR, in my opinion, is that it's really nice seeing the game world in different lighting. If day and night really is like day and night it looks much better, doesn't it? Fights change vastly when you literally trip over things in the dark (when ambushed), or you have time to sneak to a high point and rain pointy death on the enemies (for particularly homicidal archers).

    This of course requires a non-lame lighting system where the enemy can't see you from a mile away in pitch dark.

    I'm neutral to time-based puzzles. They can work without being annoying, but other times I'm distracted by shiny enemies in shiny armour and have to wait another $(annoying time period).
     
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  5. RockoDyne

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    Meh. It's nice for immersion, but it's so rare for time to matter that it's just not important.

    Honestly, I think the main reason for day/night cycles is so that you can have a well lit and highly visible environment during the day, while also having cool and moody lighting at night. When have you ever seen a scene that looked better in daylight?
     
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  6. Deleted User

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    @orb, probably the best way to describe it is a mix between fallout / Mass effect.. Thing is it's set on a planet in another galaxy that could have two suns, or anything really.. So I'm trying to weigh up the pro's and con's of the technical headache it induces vs. being able to mix static and realtime lighting..

    Also something to consider is it may or may not be Unity the game ultimatley gets released in, at the moment I'm dual crafting.. One engine makes it much harder to achieve whilst even in Unity I have to be aware of the GI cache constantly.

    It's a very large game for sure, but it's set out in a way that can be constantly segmented.. It isn't a terrain based mega mammoth, it's set within an outpost that contains a city (not a small one) but again it's split up. It's at a point where lightmaps COULD be used (at a push).. Which of course means I could potentially get it to run on a potato.

    @RockoDyne

    Sounds good, do you think it would "break" immersion? Though, I gather all I'm asking is is it worth the effort? I understand you said it's not that important.. I might just need a bit more swaying :)..
     
  7. RockoDyne

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    You can't break what isn't there. People always appreciate it when it's there (as long as it doesn't start dragging out gameplay), but it's unlikely you'll hear people clamor for it if it's not.
     
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  8. orb

    orb

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    There's the age-old trick of fake time passage if you have a nights as a thing :)

    In some open world games the main world map is daytime, always. Occasionally there are missions/quests which happen at night, and then it switches to the one night version of the map. Cheap but effective.

    Choose before it costs development time ;)

    Yeah, potatoes are still the most common gaming computer. But I think it's more modern potatoes these days: Low-spec systems with modern shader model availability and at least 2GB VRAM.

    If you go with dynamic lights you might rule out the potato without reducing scene sizes drastically - also known as consoleitis. Even modern consoles don't need that anymore! For the tuber-based systems you might sink to disabling some lighting fanciness.
     
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  9. neoshaman

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    What's the hardest part in it? I have yet to implement one but I'm thinking about it all the time, especially since one of my goal is to achieve "local procedural generation of complex NPC schedule with long distance travelling"
     
  10. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    You know I thought about it a lot and basically it's not important if there's loading between scenes. If there isn't then unfortunately it's now an expected thing so we have to deal with it. But KISS I think.
     
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  11. Deleted User

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    The implementation bit is really easy, I created a noisemask material for clouds applied to a plane that shifts in the direction of the camera somewhat but still rotates as the skybox does (like in UE's MP demo).. I updated reflection probes at a specific interval (let's say every four to six hours (in game time)), I used the atmospheric scattering system from the BS demo and then for transitions I just created a shader that blended some "cube maps" at certain points of the day..

    Then it's just a matter of rotating / dimming the directional and raising the ambient intensity of said cube maps so it's not pitch black at night.. There's lots more you could do but that's a basic one..

    The real issue is ambient lighting / directional lighting can't be static.. What you generally do in static games is blend short distance shadow cascade maps with baked shadows, so it saves tons of resources from long shadow casters / dynamic reflection probes.. There's more to it and a performance guide Unity gives you in their optimisation section of the docs..

    But in short, convincing long distance dynamic lighting / shadows are very heavy. So then you have to start optimising every part of your game to compromise.. Also dynamic lighting just doesn't look as good, especially as you have the option to bake area lights etc..

    Not really much of an issue in a small game, in a large one you fight for every 0.1ms..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2017
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  12. Deleted User

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    Aye, I'm splitting the City into 4 segments and then having sub levels under the water which will all require loading screens.. It's marketed as a "semi" openworld RPG so I might be able to get away with it.. Still looking forward to seeing yours (the game that is (just in case knowing you :D))..

    Hopefully doing all of this will make development far more manageable..
     
  13. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    I'll show you mine before you show me yours. But if you try harder you can show me yours before I show you mine.
     
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  14. RockoDyne

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    It has pretty much become the norm in open world games these days. Although now I'm curious how long it would take players to notice there wasn't a D/N cycle. I would expect at least an hour of unbroken play time.
     
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  15. hopeful

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    I think it's totally a style issue. You can set a great looking scene with static lighting and no one will care, or you can use dynamic lighting and no one will care ... so long as it looks great and doesn't get in the way of game play. ;)
     
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  16. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    "Modern RPG"

    "Batman"

    Does not compute...

    Some of us notice and make noise about it before games are even out - it's pretty obvious. Exhibit A, Mass Effect Andromeda.

    As for myself, I vastly prefer ToD systems because they better invoke the passage of time. Even if your game doesn't do hardly anything with it, such as Sleeping Dogs, it still helps a world feel more alive.

    Of course it's far, far better if you can make use of it, through things like NPC schedules and monsters only coming out at night, etc. I imagine that's a ton of work, though.

    UniStorm is a fantastic asset.
     
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  17. neoshaman

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    Did Horizon had TOD?
     
  18. orb

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    If you're talking about Horizon:Zero Dawn, yes. Also really short days. Damn this apocalypse.
     
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  19. EternalAmbiguity

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    Of course once you decide to do a ToD system it will involve plenty of decisions such as the length of days, which is an interesting topic. I know some games have a full day blow by in an hour or less, which seems crazy and antithetical to the whole purpose of a ToD system - of making time meaningful.

    I have one game planned which will involve things like growing crops, and will have all four seasons. I'm thinking I'll have each day (day + night) be around 4 or 6 hours (probably 6, with 4h days + 2h nights), where each "day" is equivalent to a month. So after three "days," or 18 hours of play, the season will change.

    Not something I've finalized, just trying to illustrate that it can dramatically affect the design of your game. I'd imagine it would be far more significant (and difficult to do well) for a story-heavy game.
     
  20. Kiwasi

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    I would spin this question on its head. Does your game have any mechanics which would benefit from a ToD system?

    Skyrim has the stealing/buying system, which is enhanced by not having people around at night. Kerball and Factorio have solar panels, which make the amount of light important. On the other hand time of day in Cities:Skylines brought nothing to the game, and just made it harder to see the game for arbitrary periods of time.

    Don't do ToD just because everyone else is. Only do it if it actually adds something useful to your gameplay.
     
  21. hopeful

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    Mechanics could include simple things like changing encounter profiles based upon day / night, or could be something like a cool down, where a game day must pass before something completes or is available (or is available again).
     
  22. EternalAmbiguity

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    Though to be fair this happens in games that don't have a ToD system, such as Mass Effect Andromeda and Dragon Age Inquisition.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  23. Martin_H

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    In my opinion: No. Also not every scifi city is built so that you can even see the sky. I really liked the old Arx Fatalis setting of everything forced underground because of a new ice age or something. Added a really oppressive feel to it to never see the sky ever. Embrace the limitations and twist them into something unique.

    +1
     
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  24. Deleted User

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    Thanks everyone, really appreciate the advice.. Some solid stuff here.
     
  25. Joe-Censored

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    I think a lot comes down to just the experience you're trying to get the player to have in your game. Overall it is a nice to have, but some games just beg for it. Others are fine as either always day or always night.

    I'd seriously consider including a day/night cycle in any game where you're really supposed to feel the passage of time (I'm including one in a sailing adventure MMO for example), or something more survival oriented and taking place primarily outdoors. For a really cute and happy RPG I'd stick to all day time, and for a very gritty and scary RPG I might keep it always night.
     
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  26. RockoDyne

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    Another case to think of: blocking periods of time. Instead of a continuous clock/schedule running, you partition time so it's quartering (or even just halving) the day up.
     
  27. TeagansDad

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    I've been enamoured with the world sim aspects of CRPGs since I first played Ultima V and Ultima VI back in 1990. After I played those games, all of the CRPGs that I previously enjoyed felt so limited and archaic (The Bard's Tale, AD&D "Gold Box" series, Wizardry, etc).

    The day/night cycle, complete with logical implications, was a big part of that. NPC schedules really helped sell the feeling of a living, breathing world. Yeah, shops would be closed at night -- big deal. I'd just find something else to do until morning or find a place to camp/sleep for a bit. (Of course any modern game should have a way to quickly pass the time until morning/night without much fuss)

    Feels kind of cheap to me when a game has a day/night cycle and NPCs that go to be at night -- but all the shops are open 24 hours. Zelda; BotW does this. I'm not even sure why, because there's virtually always a campfire or cooking pot very close by where you can wait until morning/night with a couple button presses. It's fairly immersion-breaking to have the shopkeepers an exception to following daily schedules.

    But I'm also weird in that I dislike things like quest compasses and big "this NPC is important" icons hovering over their heads. I like to lose myself in the world and forget I'm playing a game. A lot of these modern conveniences constantly remind me that I'm playing a game and it starts to feel more like a theme park than a virtual world.

    There are plenty of cool things you can do to have a day/night cycle have an impact on gameplay. NPC schedules. Tougher monsters roam the countryside at night. Visibility is impacted so stealth becomes easier. Locations that are crowded or guarded during the day become more accessible at night. Some spells or magic items may be more/less powerful at night. Maybe certain spells/rituals need to be performed at a particular time. A sidequest could require completion before dawn of the following day (time limits for main quests are probably not a good idea, i.e. Fallout's water chip quest in its original release). Magic portals might only open for an hour in the middle of the night (or depend on phases of the moon, like the moongates in some Ultima titles).

    Instead of putting a time limit for completion of a sidequest (which players tend to hate), you could do something like have the player overhear or be told that the orcs will attack the town at nightfall in two days time. The player then has that much time to get ready for the attack, and if the player doesn't bother to show up before dawn two days later (gotta give some margin of error), then the town gets attacked anyway. This doesn't have to mean automatic failure; if the player returns to the town having not shown up for the attack, the town could be under orc control -- and now the player has a new quest available which would not have even been offered had he been there to ward off the attack. So that is technically a time limited subquest, but you can have such quests fail into new and interesting situations, rather than just telling the player they failed, too bad. Granted, this makes for a lot of gated content and can significantly increase development time. But it's a cool way to make the passage of time in-game have consequences without making the player feel like they simply missed out.
     
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  28. EternalAmbiguity

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    Not sure what you mean by this. Just at some time change from "morning" to "afternoon" to "evening" to "night"? Or arbitrarily picking one as the setting for a scene, or game mission?
     
  29. Kiwasi

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    This works.

    On level based games you can go one step further. This mission always happens at nine am in the morning. This one always happens at midnight. And so on.
     
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