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Horizon GPU procedural placement

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by zenGarden, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    protopop likes this.
  2. Dave-Carlile

    Dave-Carlile

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    I don't know if I'd call it new as opposed to a really thorough and amazing implementation of ideas that have been around for awhile. But regardless, it looks incredible.

    This is an impressive stat:

     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
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  3. LaneFox

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    Having spent ... too many... hours in HZD I had no idea they were rolling the foliage like that. That's pretty awesome.

    Without the dialog with the presentation its a bit difficult to understand the details and application of the proc system but I basically understand it as the system is procedurally generating and placing assets safely in the world around the user rather than having a database of objects, their positions and their on/off state. Right?

    Regardless, the environment quality, stability and overall polish of the environment in HZD blew my mind. I hope that at some point we get terrain pipeline tools half that good in Unity.
     
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  4. Dave-Carlile

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    I keep talking myself out of buying it, but it's getting harder and harder to do so.
     
  5. LaneFox

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    It's going to ruin every other game you play for the next year, at least.
     
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  6. Ryiah

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    At least you have the hardware. It's getting annoying running into really awesome games only to realize they're PS4 only. :(
     
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  7. Dave-Carlile

    Dave-Carlile

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    Haha, I held out for years buying a PlayStation but finally caved after I couldn't put off The Last of Us anymore. It was a $400 game for me.
     
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  8. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    There has been some new people joining Unity for graphics techs, it could happen.
     
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  9. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Skimmed through it.

    Looks like a logical next step in reducing artist workload via procedural generation.

    The only possible issue is that trees may generate noticeable artificial pattern.... but then again, you may need a bird eye view to spot it.
     
  10. Arowx

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    I like it using the power of the GPU to make creating large open worlds as easy as painting a texture.
     
  11. chingwa

    chingwa

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    Don't see why you cant do this in Unity right now... everything seems driven by texture placement maps and noise.
     
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  12. imaginaryhuman

    imaginaryhuman

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    Looks really nice. Quite advanced. Now someone will implement this in Unity as the new terrain tool, or an asset store plugin.
     
  13. zenGarden

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    In the gampe you see thousand of small stones on ground surfaces.
    It can be used to bring lot of small details without needing tesselation and it is more flexible as meshes are not part of the ground texture and can be modified or changed any time.

     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  14. angrypenguin

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    This is one of a few cases where I'd have to cite the Garbage Collector as a significant issue. If you need to be constantly spawning new stuff... ugh. Hopefully that's mitigated with the advancements coming in the next ~12 months or so.
     
  15. chingwa

    chingwa

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    @angrypenguin You can just spawn a few thousand disabled trees at start and swap them in a pool as you need them, which should avoid the Garbage Collector. At least in theory.
     
  16. angrypenguin

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    You can, but if you've got more variation than fits in your memory budget, or you want to have procedural variation, then you can't just pool everything in advance. Then there's also stuff that's counter-productive to pool, like terrain tiles - sure you could do it, but the point of procedural terrain is that you don't need to reuse the same set of pieces.

    You're right that you can design around it. I just get the strong impression that in this case designing around it defeats some of the strengths that procedural generation could otherwise offer.
     
  17. Not_Sure

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    Or you can manually turn on the GC at appropriate times, such as when you're in a menu or waiting on a door to open.

    As for the OP, I know that there's a whole lot that I don't know, but what am missing here about what the big deal is?

    Also, HZD is just a Farcry clone. A really polished Farcry clone, but a Farcry clone none the less. I think it's good, but I really don't see why people are flipping out over it. I bought that and Master of Orion 2 on GoG on the same day and so far I've put in way more time on MoO2.
     
  18. neginfinity

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    In the screen you posted shrubs are aligning in nearly straight line.

    Basically with random placement it is very likely that a model (vegetation, tree, etc) will have a "cell" in which it can be spawned, and then its position within the cell can be adjusted by a semi-random value. This kind of thing might become noticeable, if you give the player an ability to look at the area from above, or move through the area very fast.

    Basically, definitely a useful approach, but there are always drawbacks.

    Also, it is restricted to heightmap based terrain, as far as I can tell.
     
  19. zenGarden

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    The picture is about the litlle stones on the floor or big models where they used their GPU placement .
     
  20. LaneFox

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    Dude, uhh... What? If you don't like it thats one thing, great... But that assessment makes absolutely no sense.
     
  21. ShilohGames

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    Actually, with the latest versions of Unity, you could largely avoid garbage collections issues by using the DrawMeshInstanced API method instead of spawning and removing game objects. With Unity 5.5 and 5.6, techniques like this can (finally) be done in Unity.
     
  22. Not_Sure

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    How do you figure?

    Big open world. Kill animals to increase your bag size. Take downs. A skill tree that is identical to FC3 and 4. Tall towers that you climb and it reveals the map. Bandit camps to wipe out. Mounts.

    The only thing different about it is the setting and it's 3rd person.

    Other than that, it's a carbon copy.

    A very polished copy.

    But a copy none the less.

    And I do like it. I just don't understand why people are treating it like it's the greatest game of all time.

    Also, the story is kind of terrible.
     
  23. LaneFox

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    So by that standard I guess WoW and AC are also carbon copies of it.
     
  24. zenGarden

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    Who said it was the greatest ? I thaught Zelda took all prefect reviews already.
    This one is not a copy of FC3, it has a deep combat system and story, anyway it looks like you are borred about video games , and NOT SURE you played it LOL
     
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  25. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Rise of the Tomb Rider.

    Assassin's Creed.

    Witcher 3.

    Nothing is new.
     
  26. zenGarden

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  27. Not_Sure

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    Right, Horizon is nothing new. That was my point.

    Never said it's not a good game.

    It is.

    But it is identical to Farcry 3 and 4.

    It lifted the exact same mechanics and elements then gave it a "tech as magic" coat of paint.

    Why is this so controversial?

    Why are people so quick to defend it from this blaringly obvious point that it's a Farcry clone?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  28. Martin_H

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    I don't think it is about defending Zero Dawn, it is about you giving Farcry 3 too much credit. And it's also getting somewhat close to calling every 90's FPS a Doom clone, all the classic RTS games Command & Conquer clones, etc..
    Farcry 3 was a very big disappointment to me. Its E3 trailer was blatantly misrepresenting the game in many ways, from narrative tone to gameplay. The hunting grind was annoying, the upgrades made no sense, the story was cringeworthy, the "bossfights" were a fvcking QTE-joke, the characters were unlikable, the gameplay repetitive, and I didn't even like the soundtrack. I remember it as one of the most annoying shooters I've played (still better than Rage though).
    I'm zero hyped for Zero Dawn, because I don't like fighting robot animals for some reason, and I don't know much about the game beyond that, but I still get hella triggered when people treat Farcry 3 as the Granddad of all open-world sandbox games, because like it has been pointed out already there's, nothing really new in FC3, and imho it's a bad game. And it's not that I don't like the genre, I absolutely loved Homefront Revolution, which has all the typical genre ingredients too. And since we're not spoiled for choice in this kind of genre, I'll probably play through FC4 and FC Primal too some day. Maybe lowered expectations let me get through them less disappointed than FC3 left me.
     
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  29. Not_Sure

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    Whether or not you like Farcry is irrelevant to whether or not HZD is a clone.

    Saying that HZD didn't completely lift the formula is dishonest at best and willfully ignorant at worst.

    Here's a check list of things both games have:
    -Take downs that snap you onto the enemy
    -Throwing rocks to distract enemies
    -Hidding in tall grass as a central mechanic to stealth
    -Skill trees with most of the skills IDENTICAL
    -Hunting animals to increase your carry capacity
    -Climbing towers to unlock the map
    -Bandit camps
    -Easter egg hunts
    -Wild plants to craft medicine
    -Bow and arrows that are a central mechanic
    -Marking enemies to track their movement
    -Mounts
    -Painting cliff edges so it's very clear where to climb
    -Repealing

    Of all the games mentioned above only Assassin's Creed came out before FC3. And that was made by the same developer.

    Tomb Raider and Witcher 3 came out after FC3.

    And no, it didn't INVENT the open world shooter as you implied that I said. But it is a very particular set of mechanics and HZD clearly copied them.

    The only thing really different is that it's 3rd person, and they lifted tracking from Witcher 3.

    But if you ask me Red Faction: Guerrilla was the best open world shooter of all time. Not Farcry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
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  30. chingwa

    chingwa

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    Am I the only person here who liked FarCry2?
     
  31. 3agle

    3agle

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    If you are insisting that all games must have unique sets of mechanics for whatever bizarre set of rules you have in your head to dictate the quality of a game, then you must have serious problems enjoying any game at all.
    This may be news to you, but there are very very very few games that are entirely unique at the time of creation. I'm fairly certain that most people would fail to identify more than 1.

    Games that are entirely unique actually have so much less value, since they are all from a period of time so long ago that the reasons for uniqueness are just that there weren't many games that existed...

    Games are evolutions of previous mechanics, people take inspiration, tweak, add, with the hope that the end result is a good, fun experience. Discussions of 'clones' or 'stolen mechanics' are entirely in the realm of ridiculous and pointless, and belong in forums full of 'gamers'. We're all game developers here, why does it matter? How about take a look at the reasons for the mechanics and techniques used, and the effectiveness of that implementation.
    Take a stance on the design of it, that's why we are here. Learn from those that are doing this to such a high standard.

    You don't like that Horizon copied mechanics, fine, why though? How could you have tweaked the formula to make it seem more unique? Changing your view of the situation is far more constructive and makes for a discussion rather than a rant.

    Regardless though, this thread is obviously about the procedural tech used in the game, which is very interesting, so I would propose a shift back to that focus. Is anyone aware of any assets that bring this type of development to Unity? With Unity's recent rendering pipeline changes this seems like it is more feasible than before, it would be interesting to see if anyone has attempted an implementation.
     
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  32. AcidArrow

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    I don't disagree. But here's the thing:

    Open world games are the kind of game that if there aren't enough fleshed out systems, or enough polished content, they are pretty terrible games. They fall into an ... "uncanny valley" let's say. Where everything seems shallow and empty and boring. I know it happened to me in the past in many open world games, where I'm initially in awe of how many options and things there are and then a couple of hours later, the spell breaks and I realize how empty and boring and shallow everything is.

    So while HZD is iterative on previous games, I think the polish level has pushed it into becoming an interesting game, which is why there's so much buzz around it.
     
  33. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    IT's not. Does it feature a whiny protagonist and a female that occasionally tries to sacrifice you on an altar?

    Game is not just its mechanics.


    I'm starting to think you're having a beef with HZD.

    I think it doesn't really matter if the game has similar mechanics to another title or not. Nothing is new. Nothing is unique.

    If you'll expect completely unique everything for every title, you'll have to ditch all the games on the market.
     
  34. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  35. LaneFox

    LaneFox

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    Everyone isn't defending HZD, they're rebuking your insane clone theory.
     
  36. angrypenguin

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    This reminds me so much of that "Every game is Wolfenstein" thread from a couple of months ago. I can show a dot point list of why my speakers are the same as my toaster if all we look at is similarities - they're both white, require electricity, have a knob, provide their function using a specially shaped coil of wire internally, get hot while in use...



    There's actually really good reasons that so many games repeat features, mechanics or "tropes" from other games - player expectations. Players expect to be able to hide in tall grass. They expect to be able to throw junk to distract people. They expect the place to be littered with dangers like bandit camps.

    Other stuff is just clear design solutions. If you've got a big world which you move around on foot then heck yes you want to give the player a faster way to travel long distances when needed. There's broadly three of those available - vehicles if you've got technology, mountable animals if you don't, or "fast travel".

    (On that note, what animals can you ride in Far Cry 3? In Far Cry 4 it's just Elephants as far as I know, and they're really not for travel...)

    I do understand where you're coming from with a few of those. The simplified crafting for gear improvement does indeed just feel like grind padding to me, and it's becoming really common. (I like The Witcher's take on it, since if you collect as you go you really only need to specifically track down the odd rate item, which is usually made interesting.) Climbing towers was really cool and made a lot of sense the first time, but is starting to feel like a design cop-out (though I haven't seen it in HZD, if they've made it interesting I'd probably be cool with it). Marking enemies just doesn't even make sense in so many cases, and so on.

    Anyway, if you want to demonstrate that two games are the same you're going to have to do a lot more than just show some vague dot points of things that are similar.
     
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  37. Not_Sure

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    This!

    This is exactly what I meant by "willful ignorance".


    For the third time, I like the game.

    But I've decided that I'm not going to argue this anymore for the same reason I shouldn't have to argue that the sky is blue or that the world is round.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  38. Not_Sure

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    Oh, that is such a cop-out.

    There's new things ALL the time in every media.

    Name another game like any of these that came before them:
    -Minecraft
    -Xcom
    -Bushido Blade
    -Slender
    -Katamari
    -Super Mario Bros
    -Mario Kart
    -Mario Party
    -Metroid
    -Picman
    -Smash Bros
    -Zelda
    -Punchout
    -Maniac Mansion
    -Myth
    -Lemmings
    -Bomberman
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  39. Martin_H

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    I'm not trying to prove a point, I just think this would be an interesting list for future reference. I'll add some, hope others will fill in the blanks (if even possible!). There are plenty of games on there I don't know much about. I would love to know if there was a predecessor to Lemmings, but I think not. And some of the games I remember knowing before their famous counterparts (Wacky Wheels, Giana Sisters) turned out to be the clones/duplicates themselves.

     
  40. 3agle

    3agle

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    I got bored searching for the rest, but you get the picture.
    It's not at all important for a game to be unique.
    It just needs to be well made. Maybe now we can talk about the game from a design point of view?
     
  41. Billy4184

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    So what if it's similar to something else. There's nothing new under the sun.

    Anyway, I wish there was a video of the talk on how this gpu placement worked, some of those slides are a bit cryptic, as well as the slides for some of the other interesting presentations they've got.
     
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  42. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    For only 495$ you can watch it in the member-only area of their site:

    http://gdcvault.com/inquiry/
     
  43. Billy4184

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    Seems like a good way to keep people out, who is going to drop $500 on this stuff? I'd join for a $10-$20 monthly subscription though, and they'd probably end up making 10x the money from me too.
     
  44. Martin_H

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    Yes, from you, but they'd need to get 25 to 50 times the amount of subs to make the same kind of money. I doubt they'd ever make more that way. And GDC would lose some of its elitist flair that come from the tripple figure admission price (maybe 4 figues for higher tier tickets, I don't know). Keeping people out might even be the intention behind the prices.
     
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  45. Not_Sure

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    Bushido Blade - You pick a fighter from a list that goes from strongest to fastest, then pick a weapon that have various weights and ranges. Then you fight an opponent with no HUD on the screen and rely on the appearance of your character to determine any injuries. Also, damage is realistic and you can kill an enemy with one well placed hit. Or if the fight lasts a longer amount of time you end up maiming one another and the fights can end with both of you flailing helplessly on the ground. The controllers is laid out with a high, middle, and low attack with a parry button on the face. While the shoulder buttons allow you to switch between 3 stances, lunge downward, or hop. Also, there are moves in the game that are considered going against Bushido and will eliminate you from being able to get the proper ending, such as throwing sand in their face or stabbing them in the back.

    Soul Caliber - Virtual Fighter with swords!!!

    "Man, those two games are freaking IDENTICAL!"


    FC and HZD - You are dropped off in an unexplored map where you use stealth, take downs, and a bow to attack bandit camps and wildlife to upgrade you bag. Along the way you climb giant towers that reveal parts of the map. You also gather herbs to make potions that heal you and give you damage resistances. And you can craft traps to give you an edge. When approaching a camp you can use your special vision to mark enemies to track their location. If you ever get bored grab a mount or an animal companion to wreck havoc. Don't forget to level up to so you can land silently, do take downs from above and below, and get more herbs and loot. And for those completionists out there, make sure to climb up ledges to find various easter eggs then repel to the bottom when you're done.

    "How dare you say those two games are the same!"
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  46. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Someone will have to make a plugin :D
     
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  47. 3agle

    3agle

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    It's a nice attempt at a strawman, but I'm done with this now.
    If you wanted a discussion about game mechanics, I'm all for it, but this is childish.
     
  48. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Please stay on topic guys , this is about Horizon technology , feel free to open a new thread if you wish to discuss about games genres.
     
  49. Ryiah

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    http://www.zachtronics.com/infiniminer/

    Getting back on topic though it reminds me of the Procedural Nature Pack on the UE4 Marketplace.

    https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?74295-Procedural-Nature-Pack-Vol-1
     
  50. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    This will waste significant amount of time, and will provide me nothing. Why should I bother doing that? Some of the games you listed are obvious derivatives of previous titles (slender is prime candidate), some were devleoped in parallel with something else (minecraft/inifiniminer, with minecraft being inspired by dwarf fortress).

    I don't understand why you're so hung up on calling two different games clones of each other. It also isn't very fun/deep topic to discuss. As I said, nothing is completely unique, but very few games are completely identical to each other. Humanity has been rehashing the same ideas forever, if you poke movies or books, for example, you can tear them apart into collection of tropes some of which date back to ancient greece. You'll maybe find twelve or so games on the market that are unlike anything else. Out of all games ever released.

    Either way, not much point talking about it.

    I think I'll try to take a deeper look at those slides later. One thing I don't quite like is that they're once again centered around 2d maps. Would be nice to have something 3d based. Wasn't there a software simulating terrain erosion or something like that?
     
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