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Daikon Forge no longer being sold in the Asset Store

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by BrainMelter, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. Justei

    Justei

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    Wow, didn't see that coming. I guess it's time to move over to uGUI instead. Luckily I anticipated moving over and made our games quite modular, but it is going to take time no doubt as any game that relies on a UI needs to be integrated with it in one way or another...

    I find this disturbing and quite annoying, I (like most) don't keep a bunch of downloads updated when I don't need them to be. And instead rely on the asset store to keep a copy, but that is obviously not a reliable situation.

    I don't mind that UT don't keep the file online, just wish they would have told me that they wouldn't, or tell me to download the latest version before taking it down :/.

    As for the developers, this looks very bad. And I will from now on be very careful buying assets from the asset store (if I ever do that again). It's just risky and looks very bad.
     
  2. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

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    I also think Unity really should maintain the downloads for paid apps. If there actually is something wrong with the current EULA's wording that says Unity is allowed to continue to supply downloads regardless of the dev's wishes, then they should fix it. It's pretty sketchy to have a EULA that specifies one thing but then claim you "can't" actually do what the EULA says. What is the point of that EULA if you're not actually going to enforce the terms?
     
  3. randomperson42

    randomperson42

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    Yeah but that's not on Unity, that's on the Daikon Forge people. They can take down their assets whenever they want,
    Exactly.
    And you did get the product you paid for...
    It would be nice if Unity allowed people who had already purchased it to download it after it gets pulled from the Asset Store, but that's not their responsibility.

    But that's not Unity's fault - it's the fault of the publisher. It's likely that Unity didn't receive a heads up either.

    Be aware that there are also a large number of good Asset Store publishers who try their hardest to provide the best support possible. This does look bad for other developers, but it's also not fair to them (us).
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  4. Silly_Rollo

    Silly_Rollo

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    How is it not their responsibility? They take their 30% cut and part of that should be providing the files. I have both Steam and app store games that were removed from their stores and while no one can buy them I am still able to download them. That is definitely the standard that has been set. The only exception I can think of is when there was some rights issue with a Kindle book and then I understand removing both purchase and download links as the company did not have the rights to the book in the first place. Amazon even gave people a refund.
     
  5. SteveJ

    SteveJ

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    Not sure - possible it's changed though. It definitely never used to be the case.
     
  6. dbryson

    dbryson

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    It is quite disturbing to find out that Unity will allow a developer to pull a purchased asset from the store such that you can't download it anymore. One of the things that made purchasing from the Asset store feel somewhat safe was the thought that even though a random developer might disappear, UT would still be there and you could still download the asset. Now we see that is not true.

    Like many others I have purchased quite a number of assets and don't always download them immediately or if I do it might just into a test project to check them out for use later. Probably a good lesson to learn from this is if you purchase an asset from the Asset store, download it immediately and export it as a package in case UT randomly removes it. I don't know of any automatic way to keep up with updates, I guess you just have to periodically check the Asset store.

    Perhaps a good idea for asset sellers, is to setup a website to support your asset that allows purchasers to register their purchase so that you can keep them up to date. Apparently, you can get invoice numbers from the UT api so you can verify purchases.
     
  7. dbryson

    dbryson

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    You are exactly right.
     
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  8. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    You just need to download it once, then it's always available regardless (as long as you don't wipe your hard drive and all your backups). Exporting and so on is not necessary.

    --Eric
     
  9. dbryson

    dbryson

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    I disagree. What happens when you upgrade to the latest version of Unity or a patch? I wouldn't want to risk it given the amount of work involved in fixing things.
     
  10. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    What happens when you buy the asset in your browser during a sale? They should at least give you a download link!

    That happens a lot and unless you're using it in a project it might sit for a while before you download it.





    Other asset stores don't have this problem. Even bitgem's site emails me with a link to the new update each time an asset I've bought there is updated.

    Turbosquid I can get a live person on chat that can actually access the asset, and I can explain exactly what I'm talking about while they're looking at it and get a refund if it's missing something or junk.

    Graphic river, activeDen, 3dOcean, etc I can download whatever I've bought in the past, and they sell unity assets.

    Dexsoft, Mr Necturus, Bitgem, all have sites that sell models and all of them have a download section you can access your files from.

    The worst thing about the asset store is that they don't notify anyone when they pull an asset for any reason, let alone legal reasons, so you may buy something from the same developer after already being burned by them.

    Honest question for proteinbeer games, why did you pull the atlas generator a week after posting it? You have other stuff for sale so I've always wondered....
     
  11. im

    im

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    why not give like 30 days notice and then like 15 day notice and then like 7 day notice and then like 24 hour notice

    emails are cheap

    and i dont think it would be too hard to add something like it

    they can integrated into process of author removing asset from store it would schedule it to happen after author request it and it would remove asset in month time which is not unreasonable

    part of the email could include where buyers can go to get copy and updates after it is removed from store

    sort of make it no surprises, customer and author friendly, no hurt feelings
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
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  12. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    It's not a matter of agreeing or not, it's just a fact that when you download it, it's on your hard drive and can't be removed just because it's not on the store anymore. There is no "risk", unless you don't have any backups (in which case you're simply insane anyway ;) ).

    Sure, but that's not what I was responding to. dbryson seemed to be under the misimpression that you had to import the asset into a project or it didn't exist on your computer, which isn't the case. I always download stuff I buy immediately, even on stores where theoretically it should always be available, because you never really know for sure. It never hurts to download right away, even if you don't intend on using it for a while.

    Or how about skipping all that and just have it available for download if you've bought it, even if it gets pulled from the store....

    --Eric
     
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  13. ippdev

    ippdev

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    They post it on the forums and endure the bone crushing assault that would be leveled at them. Cowards.
     
  14. AnomalusUndrdog

    AnomalusUndrdog

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    Raises an interesting point. As sellers, our only way of getting more revenue is via new customers. Our existing customers can demand more features to be put, but you know what? To get more funding for it we need to attract more and more new users into buying, up to a point where it can get unsustainable.

    We've been suggesting a UE4-style subscription: as a customer, you pay, you get updates for this month. after this month you still get to keep using what you have. to get updates, you pay again, good for another month.



    Ok get this: As a seller I can't even contact my existing customers, no mailing list to announce something to them whatsoever. Unity doesn't tell me who bought my product. So what sellers end up doing is like DF-GUI or NGUI, they set up their own forums and tell their customers to make an account there. Of course, some customers are going to miss that part and it feels like people are being kept in the dark with things like this.


    It's in their license agreement that they "will" continue to provide the asset to existing customers even if it was pulled down from being purchased. Read the license agreement in its entirety. Then again, I'm pretty sure UT has the power to edit the license at any time they feel like it.


    http://unity3d.com/legal/as_provider


    At least Steam isn't like that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
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  15. AnomalusUndrdog

    AnomalusUndrdog

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    Here's how it works: when you download the asset, it goes into your My Documents/home folder (at least, somewhere in there). It's not in the Unity install folder, so updating Unity won't be a problem. They come in as .unitypackage files. I usually copy them to an external drive for backup.
     
  16. Ostwind

    Ostwind

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    Asset Store fails badly when it comes to these kind of situations and I can't see why some people defend UT like they would have no responsibility. Maybe they washed their hands with all the EULA stuff but I can't remember another "service" that has all these combined (for end user)
    • No way to download removed assets
    • No automatic updates or a way to download any other versions than latest
    • No mails or notifications about asset updates
    • No warning mails or other notifications about upcoming removal or removed assets
    At the moment the Unity way to go seems to be check all your assets manually for updates daily/weekly, check if any assets jumped to "local" assets silently (was removed, find the reason yourself), backup everything. So in conclusion its year 2014 and it's time to waste more time to do basic things that other services provide as standard features?

    Generally speaking and not just DFGUI, even if we would get a way to get a copy of removed asset by contacting support or as a added feature to the store we still need to get the information that something that we use to do our products and business has been removed or changed and it could affect our plans. Even this forum has watch thread feature so wheres our watch/follow/subscribe asset changes? if you fail to add such trivial feature then at least give asset authors some CRM features.
     
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  17. Stephan-B

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    I do not feel it is fair to be upset at Unity here since they have no control over an Asset Developer deciding to pull their products from the store.

    For instance, If a Vendor decides to pull one of their products from the shelves at Best Buy, Best Buy has no choice but to follow their request. Now I am certain that Best Buy would be pretty unhappy about this just like I am pretty sure Unity isn't too pleased either. I am pretty sure that Best Buy would charge this Vendor for costs incurred as a result of this recall / product cancellation. Having dealt with Best Buy as a Vendor, I can also assure you that this Vendor would be blacklisted but nonetheless Best Buy would have to comply and pull the product.

    What is challenging here is that this product was sold in electronic form (download) and regardless of the cancellation, whoever has purchased it should continue to have access to it. The question is whether or not Unity has the right to (Store) or maintain copies of products which they do not own and are no longer available. In this case, we are asking Unity to be an online storage facility of electronic products (assets) for those who didn't download it right away or didn't keep a local copy on their hard drives. Do you remember the early days of buying electronic copies of games? Remember how EA or Digital River or Game Stop would charge you extra to give you the ability to download the game up to 30 or 60 days after the purchase? Unity simply has to figure out what they can and cannot do from a legal stand point.

    From my point of view, I see both Unity and those who purchased this product as being in the same boat and forced to deal with the consequences of someone else's actions.
     
  18. AnomalusUndrdog

    AnomalusUndrdog

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    To be sympathetic to Unity, I think their Asset Store dev team needs help. Any webdev wanna get hired?
     
  19. jerotas

    jerotas

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    For people who already downloaded the product after buying it, sure. What about those folks who bought it and never downloaded? Those people obviously got no product at all. Surely it's Unity's responsibility to either provide a way to get it or refund. Especially since it says as much in their own terms of service posted a few posts up by underdog.
     
  20. Ryiah

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    That is not why we are upset with them. We acknowledge they do not have control over an Asset Developer deciding to cease sales of their product, but their license agreement gives them the leeway to continue offering downloads of purchased assets.
     
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  21. Ostwind

    Ostwind

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    It's not only about the fact that we can't download it anymore but also the fact we get no information at all that this happened. We at least deserve some sort of notification that something that we use has been temporarily or permanently removed. If I would not follow these forums I would probably have noticed the removal after several weeks or even months which is bad when its related to development.

    I remember the days when digital downloads had day or download count limits but they were different type of downloads. Games that you downloaded were yours and you could still patch them with official updates. However we are talking about Asset Store here which is a service for developers that do business and don't purchase stuff for entertainment purposes. We also talk about products that get regular updates or critical fixes, some assets even get weekly/monthly updates.

    It's not Unity fault if author pulls their asset for reasons like halted/canceled development, mergers and acquisitions or what ever other reasons. It's Unity's fault to not let the customers know that this has happened and/or they do not provide authors a way to do it. Also in the case of DFGUI it seems they only wanted to stop selling it but still let users to download it BUT they can't do this because Unity does not provide a way. They allow you to download it from their site with your invoice number.

    There is enough reason to be upset at Unity especially if you have seen other Asset Store complaint threads here in the forums. You can find some by checking caitlyns profile and her posts. It's probably not her fault that stuff don't get improved and maybe some middle management guy might be calling the shots about development and prioritizing. In the end I hope this DFGUI "incident" gets stuff rolling faster and changes to happen in regards of Asset Store features.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
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  22. NomadKing

    NomadKing

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    I think the fault on communication of the issues lies with both UT and the publisher here. The publisher doesn't have direct access to contact customers, but they sure as hell should post / update threads in the relevant sections of these forums (and their own if applicable) to let people know what's happening. In addition, UT do have direct access to the customers, so at the very least triggering an automatic email to the accounts of people who have purchased an asset should be quite feasible.

    This is the confusing part of Caitlyn's reply. The agreement states that a request for removal doesn't affect Unity's right to host the file for customers who've previously purchased it, it's actually worded pretty clearly:
    What are we missing here? Is there some superseding part of the agreement? Local law issue? Or is it that the asset store doesn't currently have the functionality to support a downloadable-but-not-for-sale product?

    Some clarification here would be nice.
     
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  23. imtrobin

    imtrobin

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  24. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    I don't really think it's fair to demand refunds for a product which had a positive use for years, only to have the product end whenever Unity releases its own update dealing in the same area / feature set.

    I mean, if Unity adopts its own GUI, then it's a pretty big blow to the GUI asset market. Even if there are still reasons to buy GUI's or 2D Sprite assets, with Unity having its own GUI and 2D sprite features, what's the point? I can't imagine supporting them is a great future for the asset developers. Sounds more like a losing battle.
     
  25. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Of course that is possible.

    Any vendor who doesn't do this, does a great disservice to their consumers and IMO shouldn't be in business.

    Every digital vendor should retain some way of allowing access to their bought product, even if it is discontinued. Especially in the age of free bandwidth and free file sharing sites. There is no excuse.

    Although the obvious moral choice is to make any discontinued digital product a free, open source asset. At the LEAST free and downloadable on a free site. Then again, we don't live in a very moral world now do we.
     
  26. Archania

    Archania

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    It is the same as if you go to the store and your favorite toothpaste is no longer being sold. You going to go to the manager and yell at them that they should have told you that it is no longer being sold? Or that they should still sell whatever stock they have? Good luck with that.
    The asset store did what they were told to do by the dev, which is pull the asset.
    Now we can all move past that since Unity did what they have to do.
    The issue now is that we can't download the asset anymore which some may have not gotten the latest version. This is the issue at hand that needs to get resolved.
    The other issue is that the dev need to get a list of all their "clients" that paid for the asset so they could inform them of changes, updates, etc.
    Policies need to be changed for the asset store. But don't go knocking on the door asking for blood. This hostility is not professional nor is it productive.
     
  27. Dabeh

    Dabeh

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    I don't think one person here is arguing that they should be giving refunds or that they shouldn't have let them take it down. I agree with the other stuff you two said though.
     
  28. Archania

    Archania

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    Really? Because that is what everyone seems to be doing here. Stating that the asset store sucks. The management should be fired.
    People should calm down and think before going off especially on a public forum.
    Do you all act like this in real life? Fly off the handle at people? Or you just do it because you are a number on a computer hidden behind a screen?
    Now I'm ranting. I got work to do....
     
  29. Dabeh

    Dabeh

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    That's completely different to what you said before. You were making a strawman argument with the toothpaste comparison.

    The asset store does suck, it doesn't get anything right; it's completely bare bones. If you're trying to copy what I said with the management, that's an exaggeration. There is obviously a lack of experience in the asset store management, I don't know of any store that runs like this outside of Unity by choice and/or lack of experience. I said no such solution in regards to "management should be fired"; maybe some proper training would be sufficient.

    Some training along with extra helping hands over there I think would go a long way, they're obviously understaffed.
     
  30. Ostwind

    Ostwind

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    How about you read what people write here? Pulling the asset off or discontinuing the development of DFGUI is not Unity's fault at all but the flaws of Asset Store are. We are in this no information, no download situation cause still after a year of different requests and complaints not much or anything has been done.

    Even if in theory the DF team would have wanted to notify asset store customers and/or just leave the latest version available to download they would have had no way since the features are missing and the fault is in the Asset Store. Even if in theory the DF team could not care less about people getting their downloads or any info about removal it's still Unity's fault we did not at least get some sort of notification that one of our purchases were removed and had no chance to download latest version or our first download that was postponed for what ever reason.

    We need either online asset archive or some kind of policy change in the store where asset authors are bound to allow customers to have grace period to download something that is being pulled off or something better than the current horrible system of silent removals. We also need notifications when there are status changes happening to our purchases.
     
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  31. orb

    orb

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    They definitely do. I think the only other store I've heard of to completely delete stuff from your account was GOG, and then only in special cases (usually involving EA). The mobile app stores don't completely nuke anything unless there were copyright issues involved, and I think it's only happened twice. If we paid for something we should be able to redownload it.

    What I have learned from this is that the asset store will screw us all over, without warning, if an author decides they can't take the workload anymore. What I've learned from the feedback threads is that UT will filter very little back to people who can change things.
     
  32. Yukichu

    Yukichu

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    If the developer requests it to be removed, UT has to remove it. Why are people railing on Unity for this?

    Ole' Flappy Bird requested to be taken down, and Apple did just that. It's their policy. Maybe people can sell their PCs that have DF-GUI installed for hundreds of thousands of dollars now.
     
  33. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    There was advance notice that flappy bird was being taken down. Not only that, but flappy bird was free and not a mission critical game development tool
     
  34. Archania

    Archania

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    Simply because the guy told people that he didn't like the attention he was getting. He didn't have too. He could have just stopped it and ran with the money.
    Everyone is different on how they handle things.
     
  35. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    Hello everyone!

    As Caitlyn stated in her post, we are really sorry this has unexpectedly happened. I do agree that we need to still supply the latest downloaded package to already-paid customers, through the Asset Store.

    However, as a temporary solution to this problem, whilst it is being sorted by our Asset Store Team, Daikon Forge is available from their website to those that are verified customers (They have supplied instructions for verifying your purchase aswell). Granted that this isn't in our Asset Store, it is still an alternative method of acquiring DaikonForge for those that have already paid for it:
    http://www.daikonforge.com/forums/resources/daikon-forge-user-interface-library.9/
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
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  36. Wild-Factor

    Wild-Factor

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    Will Unity work on adding this feature in the futur (no I'm not asking a timeframe) ?
     
  37. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Dude. You are the biggest whinefest. Your attitude sucks.
     
  38. Aurore

    Aurore

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    Let's not make this dissolve into people whining at people whining mmkay
     
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  39. Yukichu

    Yukichu

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    I really really wanted to put DF-GUI in a post for the Unity Awards Voting... I thought it would be hilarious. I then realized it might not be so hilarious to others, so my joke gets to go in this thread.
     
  40. Wild-Factor

    Wild-Factor

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    You just need to properly communicate and this will end this kind of discussion naturally.
    Daikon Forge ending his asset it's not the first time it happen. This problem has been talked for more than a year on this forum...
    If the back end is well done, it shouldn't took more than one day of work to do it (test include). You just need to set the asset available to download but not for purchase.
    I know that you probably have a list of several hundred things to do that just took a day, but it will be good to communicate about it at least, don't you think ?

    So people won't spend their time speculating...
     
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  41. movra

    movra

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    I don't know, maybe it's a legal minefield. The EULAs are contradictory. On the one hand you have the Provider EULA stating the asset will remain in the Asset Store for existing customers and on the other hand you have the Asset Store EULA which basically allows Unity to do anything. On a side note you are not allowed to make copies of assets but you are allowed to make a backup. What kind of non-Euclidean dimension does this lawyer live in?

    ... Crap.
     
  42. Aurore

    Aurore

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    The problem isn't speculating, the problem is people arguing about other people whining, it's fine to post your thoughts and opinions but don't go on the offensive if people don't agree with you, everyone thinks differently, keep it civil.

    Unfortunately for the moment the ability to download a bought package that has been taken off the store isn't possible but they've been wanting it though. Now I may be paraphrasing here so Caitlyn can further comment when she's awake but, this isn't as straight forward as turning on a button, we'd also have to go through our legal team to change the AS policy, which takes time.
     
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  43. jerotas

    jerotas

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    About refunds, I'm saying that people who bought the asset but never downloaded it should either get a refund or a way to download it.
     
  44. Aurore

    Aurore

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    Andy posted a link of where you can still get it.

    [edit] Although I was talking with support about what we could do to solve this, then the link was found.
     
  45. landon912

    landon912

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    I think why people are so hostile is due to that this has happened before, the exact complaints and issues talked about over a year ago, and still nothing.
     
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  46. Aurore

    Aurore

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    I understand that, I hope we can change this.
     
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  47. VicToMeyeZR

    VicToMeyeZR

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    What do you need to change. The provider agreement clearly states you don't have to remove it from the asset store for customers...
     
  48. randomperson42

    randomperson42

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    So don't use it.
    Meanwhile there are a great number of people who have been able to use it successfully. It's not perfect, and it never will be.
     
  49. caitlyn

    caitlyn

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    EDIT: DFGUI is now available in your download manager if you've already purchased it. -C

    HI all,

    We are really sorry for the trouble this has caused! I hear and understand your frustrations, and sympathize wholeheartedly.

    The whole matter is so complicated, because of the legal structure of our vending contract with our publishers. As you may know, Unity Technologies acts as the marketplace for publishers, and we cannot meddle too much in the way that publishers like Daikon Forge choose to operate their business. Their decision to back out of the asset store was completely unexpected and came to us without warning. We contacted DF and urged them to re-think this decision they made so rashly, but alas the decision was theirs to make.

    However, we are working on a solution to sort those of you who purchased DF GUI out.

    1. Those who have purchased it will be able to download DFGUI from the download manager in the near future. We have to do some server tweaking on the back end to enable this.

    2. If you can't wait, and have purchased DFGUI and need to download it, contact the publisher here with your invoice number. They will provide a download link to the product. If they fail to support you, let me know by emailing caitlyn(at)unity3d.com

    3. Let Daikon Forge know you are disappointed. Contact Jonah, tell him. If DF intends to continue to develop new products on the Asset Store (as I believe they do), please do let them know you will not support them anymore. We have, literally, thousands of vendors, and the Asset Store is a free capitalist marketplace. On the one hand, this can bring surprisngly awesome innovation, but it is also subject to the somewhat unpredictable nature of publishers' business decisions. As the consumer, you are voting with your dollars (or Euros, Yen, RMB, Zloty, etc).

    4. We are working with our legal team to implement stronger language in the Asset Store terms of service and publisher agreement to shore up customers' rights, further, so that this doesn't happen.

    Please know that we are fully aware of the situation, are endeavoring to minimize the damages, and get those of you who purchased DFGUI proper access to the package without having to depend on the publisher. For now, please go through the publisher as described at point 2 above to get a copy of your asset, and contact me if they fail.

    With our kindest respect,

    --
    Caitlyn Meeks-Ferragallo
    Asset Store Manager

    Unity Technologies
    795 Folsom Street, Ste 200
    San Francisco, CA 94107
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  50. Archania

    Archania

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2010
    Posts:
    1,662
    Glad to hear you are taking steps to fix this for not only the issue at hand but future too.
    Keep going Caitlyn.