Search Unity

  1. Megacity Metro Demo now available. Download now.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Unity support for visionOS is now available. Learn more in our blog post.
    Dismiss Notice

Alloy Physical Shader Framework by RUST LTD.

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by xenius, Nov 20, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. NERVAGON

    NERVAGON

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Posts:
    73
    Xenius, what is causing all that foggy gray on your copper mug example?
     
  2. xenius

    xenius

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    523
    What do you mean by foggy grey? If you mean the variation in surface reflectivity, its coming from the fact that the realtime light i have on the left is slightly blue shifted (whereas the one on the right is orange-shifted). There's also some variation happening on both the metalness and smoothness channel.

    If you mean on the right-shot how you see grey on the grazing angles, thats the Fresnel term kicking in, and the reflection from the RSRM (as there's no specific-cube present). Fresnel in Alloy comes purely from the ambient light intensity. This scene was baked with a mid-grey skylight, directional lightmaps, 3 bounces, little AO. So the lighting environment is pretty neutral before the dynamic light is blended in.

    Here's some pics to see how it looks with the various components-only.

    $Mug_01.jpg

    $Mug_02.jpg

    $Mug_03.jpg

    Does that help out at all? If you send me you email via PM I'd be happy to send to package with the scene so you can take a look.
     
  3. NERVAGON

    NERVAGON

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Posts:
    73
    Ok, you've got gray ambient light and baked in gray bounce from the floor. Thanks.
     
  4. BuildABurgerBurg

    BuildABurgerBurg

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Posts:
    566
    Updated to 1080

     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  5. BuildABurgerBurg

    BuildABurgerBurg

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Posts:
    566
    "Really does need a cubemap though, didn't have one handy on this machine though."

    Oh man... I had cubemaps crashing on me yesterday for 5 hours.. arhhh 8 out of 10 attempts crashed Unity. I was using skyshop, created the cubemaps, then hit play and it just kept on locking up...

    Thats why I haven't bothered adding it into the scene. they're attached to the shader though. I can't waste another day with constant crashing..
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  6. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    @MoHoe
    That's awesome. Thanks for making a video showing it from multiple angles. It looks great. :)
     
  7. BuildABurgerBurg

    BuildABurgerBurg

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Posts:
    566
    Thanks n00body :)
     
  8. NERVAGON

    NERVAGON

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Posts:
    73
    $mug-compare-02.jpg

    Just a quick comparison of Alloy vs Toolbag 2 and Substance Designer's PBR viewport. It's pretty obvious that Alloy is worlds better than the SD4 viewport, and actually quite close to Toolbag 2! Pretty cool.
     
  9. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    @nervouschimp
    Very interesting results. Glad to see Alloy stacks up well against the competition. ;)

    Though I am confused about something. The Substance Designer and Toolbag 2 examples look like they are missing Ambient Occlusion. Is it there and just really subtle?
     
  10. kenshin

    kenshin

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Posts:
    940
    Amazing!!! :)

    Please, can you release a quick tutorial about to realize similar metal with Alloy?
     
  11. xenius

    xenius

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    523
    @Kenshin: We're going to be pushing a big Alloy Update after this weekend. After that's out (as some channels are getting re-arranged), I'm going to make a couple quick tutorial video for making metal looks great, as well as some other fun stuff!
     
  12. NERVAGON

    NERVAGON

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Posts:
    73
    $mug-compare-03.jpg

    Good catch, n00body, in this shot, I mapped the the occlusion to the cavity slot in Toolbag as well, and that gave me the desired effect. Also, yes, the occlusion channel of the PBR shader in Substance Designer wasn't rendering for some reason, I forced it to refresh and it looked a little better, but still pretty terrible, so I'm not including the SD4 screen grab, because it just makes my eyes hurt to look at it.
     
  13. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    @nervouschimp
    Thanks. That makes for a much better comparison. ;)

    Having said that, it amazes me how similar they are. It is very gratifying. :)
     
  14. BuildABurgerBurg

    BuildABurgerBurg

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Posts:
    566
    @Kenshin : I can't make a quick tutorial at the moment, I'm in the process of reinstalling my OS
     
  15. kenshin

    kenshin

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Posts:
    940
    Great, I will be soon customer! :)
     
  16. angelodelvecchio

    angelodelvecchio

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Posts:
    170
    Do you plan to add shaders with reflection cubemaps ? or real-time reflections ?, I mean any reflections please ? I could work for, lets say, a reflecting floor ? the /Alloy/Core/Rsrm Detail with a reflection cubemap to use in a floor would be fantastic, or something like that, please,


    Many thanks
     
  17. xenius

    xenius

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    523
    @angelodelvecchio Hi Hi!

    Right now, if you use the included Cube Variants, you can plug in a cube reflection. Note that in the current version, this reflection is multiplied by the ambient lighting value in your scene (constant ambient, lightmaps, or light probes, whichever is in use). The next version of Alloy will have an exposure multiplier for those who want it to be brighter.

    As for real-time reflections, those currently break horribly in deferred rendering mode (due to the view re-projection) so we're not making a variant for that.

    Lemme know if you have any more questions about using it!
     
  18. Vladimir B

    Vladimir B

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Posts:
    1
    Sorry for my poor English.
    Am I right that SPECULAR LEVEL is automatic calculated and Smoothness (A) is an analog of GLOSSINESS MAP? At the same time in DDo, for example, combination of SPECULAR and GLOSSINESS levels determine nature of material (for instance CHROME have max levels of both SPEC and GLOSS and ALUMINIUM have max SPEC and little GLOSS). How can I do it with ALLOY?
    Thank You.
     
  19. kenshin

    kenshin

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Posts:
    940
    Any release date for the next release? :)
     
  20. xenius

    xenius

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    523
    @ Vladimir B: Yes, the specular level is automatically determined based on what Metalness is set to. Smoothness can be thought of as being similar to Glossiness, though behaves a touch differently.

    If you're coming over from 'standard' shaders making maps in DDO, you're going to have to do things a touch differently (and most likely modify DDO's filter presets a bit).

    -You're going to need a map for Metalness that DDO doesn't produce, that's just Black and White:
    ---White = Metal
    ---Black = Not Metal

    -In the Color map, use the RGB values on page 3 of this thread for the different types of metal.

    -For the Smoothness Map:
    ---.8-1.0 will give you something very smooth, like Chrome
    ---.5-.7 will give you something rougher, like Brushed Aluminum

    If this still isn't clear for ya, shoot me an email at Alloy@rustltd.com I'd be happy to quickly screen-share with you over skype to show ya how things work.

    @ Kenshin: So releases :) We've actually ended up doing some _major_ changes to the set, in terms of parameter layout, extra variants, several editor tools, etc. Enough so, that we're going to be doing one BIG release either at the end of January, or the first week of February. The changes are such that I'm making a new demo scene, and a bunch of workflow videos (as I realized through this thread that I didn't provide quite enough best-use instructions for those new to PBR).

    HOWEVER, if anyone who's currently a customer wants to try things early (and doesn't mind that a couple things are in-progress), email me at Alloy@rustltd.com, with your asset store receipt, and I'd be happy to send you a beta of 1.1 after the New Year (need to write up a beta changelog first). We'd love to get some feedback on some of the changes before we push the final update in Jan/Feb.

    Major Features/Changes in Alloy 1.1:

    Shader Variants and Changes:
    - RSRM and CUBE no longer separate shaders. You now have a dropdown in a single shader to pick which option you want.
    - Whole bunch of new standard Variants (there are now about 50 unique shaders instead of 15 of each (rsrm/cube) )
    - Variants with Alpha-blended Decal Layer
    - Full Variant set for Distortive Translucent
    - Full Variant set for Alpha Cutout
    - Dissolve (to alpha cutout) and Transition (Material 1 to Material 2) vfx shaders

    Visual Improvements:
    - Visibility Function Improved (approximation of Schlick, used by Treyarch). Light angle matters more now.
    - Specular Occlusion Implemented (based on a technique by Tri-Ace. Uses your AO map to keep HDR specular (direct and ambient) from showing up where it should be occluded.
    - Implemented Specular Anti-Aliasing via Roughness-correction (UE4/Crytek style). When using our channel-packer, it takes into account normal map mips to modify the roughness to compensate for normal-flattening in higher mips. Keeps rough noisy metals looking rough at distance. _Essential_
    - Increased range of smooth and rough materials internally so you can get smoother materials, and have more consistency with external tools (like SD4), when generating roughness maps.

    Parameter Changes:
    - Changed Smoothness to Roughness (to line up with Substance Designer 4, and other industry conventions)
    - Added Specularity Parameter (Disney's PBR style, allows us to represent a wide range of dielectric materials using an easy-to-use 0-1 range)
    - New RGBA Packed Data Map (R = Metallic, G = Occlusion, B = Specularity, A = Roughness)
    - Packed Metallic, Specularity, Roughness parameters into a single vector. This means more registers free for crazy variants!
    - Added exposure boost for cube reflections (you asked for it! Use responsibly :p)

    New Tools that now come with the package:
    - New Alloy Texture Channel Packing Editor extension (takes in maps/solid colors, spits out data map)
    - New RSRM Generator Editor extension (great for getting a nice generalized reflected tone/different aesthetics)
    - New Alloy Terrain Texture Packer (needed for slightly different channel layout, *grump grump unity terrain limitations)

    Stuff We're still working on:
    - Vegetation Shader
    - Skyshop Support
    - Our Epic Beards

    Phew... that about covers the big stuff. Whole bunch of other fiddly little changes. Don't worry, we'll have a more comprehensive change-log when we release.

    As I said, hit us up with your receipt via email, if you want to be on the beta. I'd prefer you also include your skype handle, so I can show you how things work now one-on-one. Keep it shiny!
     
  21. kenshin

    kenshin

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Posts:
    940
    Thanks for the info... a great release is coming!
     
  22. ArtisticSliz

    ArtisticSliz

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2014
    Posts:
    40
    Hey, gang. I've been researching this setup, and I'm wondering if anyone can post a preview of glass or water shading with Alloy. I'd love a look (video?) of Alloy handling a refractive, reflective material.
     
  23. xenius

    xenius

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    523
    @ArtisticSliz: Hi Hi! Gimme a day or two and I'll throw together a webplayer with some translucent materials from our in-progress 1.1 update!
     
  24. garyhaus

    garyhaus

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2006
    Posts:
    601
    Looking forward to the update. ESPECIALLY when its integrated with Skyshop. Thanks.

    Gary
     
  25. erana79

    erana79

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Posts:
    61
    Hello!
    I'm really interested in this. I only got 2 questions:

    1) The OSX demo doesn't work on my machine. The demo scene doesn't start for some reason.
    Since we're working on a game that needs to run on OSX, will the shaders work? OpenGL support?

    2) We're using Amplify Texture as a virtual texturing solution. Can the shaders be converted to work with Amplify? Probably somebody already tested this and give me a hint?

    All in all...really impressive. (at least from the videos i saw)

    Thanks for your reply!
     
  26. xenius

    xenius

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    523
    @Erana79
    1. We've had intermittent issues with that build taking a while to start for some OSX users. How long did you let it try to open (there's a lot of textures to load in it)? We have successfully run it on a variety of configs though. If you want to shoot me a PM or email with your full system config including OSX version, it would help us understand if there's a problem somewhere.

    2. The current Amplify Texture doesn't support Alloy, as it requires both explicit modification to shaders, and a specific channel setup. We're working with the developer though to ensure that in Amplify 2 there will be full Alloy support!
    The current Amplify version supports RGBA diffuse/gloss and normal, whereas Alloy shaders need a few more channels. We actually compacted our channel setup in our coming update to better facilitate future Virtual Texture support though!
     
  27. erana79

    erana79

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Posts:
    61
    Hi Xenius!

    1) I started the demo but the process was closed after a few seconds. I'm on OSX Mavericks. Will send you the specs!

    2) Awesome! Can't wait for Amplify Texture 2. Good to see you guys work hand in hand on this. Great times are coming.
    I just bought Alloy and will start working with it now. Cool if - once AT2 is out - i can just plug it in and it'll work.
     
  28. xenius

    xenius

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    523
    @Erana79: Hmm... I don't think we tested on Mavericks. Have heard about some opengl probs. on it. Can you PM your skype handle? I can pass you a package with a tweak that might help things on openGL if the package itself is acting up on you.
     
  29. BuildABurgerBurg

    BuildABurgerBurg

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Posts:
    566
    Here's a video showing my pod engine with Alloy + customized Flow shader

    I've also added Amplify Color filter. Movie 300 filter



    ____________________
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  30. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    For those who are interested, here's a little teaser of the beta shaders with the new BRDF enhancements and preliminary Skyshop integration.

    Let me know what you think. ;)
    $iron chainmail.JPG
     
  31. garyhaus

    garyhaus

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2006
    Posts:
    601
    Nice! Can't wait to get alloy working with my Skyshop stuff!
     
  32. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    Thanks. The really cool part is that our new specular occlusion, specular AA, and ambient visibility enhancements all compliment skyshop's specular cube maps just as well as they do our RSRMS.

    Since I felt like giving a better sample, here's a few more. ;)
    $Leather.JPG $Gold weave.JPG $iron chainmail.JPG
     
  33. garyhaus

    garyhaus

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2006
    Posts:
    601
    Hooah!!!
     
  34. SteveB

    SteveB

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Posts:
    1,451
    Yea PBS and custom diffuse lighting...pretty sexy.

    Safe to claim now that this is reasonably comparable to Marmoset Toolbox 2.0? (as I understand it Skyshop doesn't have PBS shaders as Toolbox does)

    -Steven
     
  35. BuildABurgerBurg

    BuildABurgerBurg

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Posts:
    566
    That's awesome n00body!!

    hehehehehe I'm getting excited!!

    edit...


    by the way I've updated my pod video showing Alloy + Flow shader. Let me know what you think of the water. does it look quite realistic?

    Video: view in 1080 please

     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  36. kaz2057

    kaz2057

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Posts:
    326
    You plan to develop a mobile optimized version?

    Thanks :)
     
  37. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    @SteveB
    I feel like only the good people at Marmoset can make that call, especially since I don't know the full capabilities of their Toolbag product.

    @MoHoe
    Sorry I overlooked your post before. Yes, that does look surprisingly good. Thanks for the new video. ;)

    @kaz2057
    Our current plan is to wait for the mobile hardware to catch up, rather than chopping core features to get it running on mobile. This is looking more promising now that Nvidia has demoed their Kepler-based mobile GPU's capabilities.
     
  38. SteveB

    SteveB

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Posts:
    1,451
    Oh believe me I and one other have asked...in my case four times...about Marmoset having PBS's, which has gone wholly ignored. *shrugs*

    The math here adds up...if this is Physically Based and supports diffuse custom lighting (skyshop) then it is fair to say the amalgam is a reasonable facsimile of Toolbox 2.0. It actually being Toolbox is not of any importance. :D

    Thanks man
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  39. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    Great to hear that Skyshop integration is coming!

    I don't really understand though what Specular Occlusion is supposed to do? I mean, why is there only specular occlusion and not diffuse occlusion? In Skyshop we have a dedicated AO channel that occludes both the specular as well as the diffuse channel. Did I misunderstand something?

    Also what exactely is the visibility function that is going to get an improvement? Is that the visiblity function of your microfacet shading model? If so, what's the visual effect of it?

    Thanks! :)
     
  40. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    @SeanM3D
    I'm always glad to see more interest in the next version of our product. To answer your questions:

    Ambient Occlusion:
    We didn't mention AO because we already support it in our shaders. The difference is that the current version applies it to both ambient diffuse and ambient specular whereas 1.1 will only apply it to the ambient diffuse contribution. The reason being that AO is insufficient for occluding specular lighting.

    Firstly, it darkens the specular regardless of the angle of the light source and the viewer in relation to the surface. So it will always be uniformly darkened even if it shouldn't be. Secondly, it is insufficient for actually occluding HDR specular because even extremely dark AO will still produce an HDR result if applied to an HDR input. (eg. AO = 0.01, HDR Specular = 256, result = 2.56). Finally, it does a poor job of occluding specular lighting showing up on inner edges, particularly as a result of fresnel.

    The fact of the matter is, AO on specular has always been a hack done for lack of better options.

    Specular Occlusion:
    This new approach works on both ambient AND direct specular for near horizontal angles, where it is essentially occluded by surface features or by the object itself. It doesn't simply darken the specular, it completely eliminates it. Plus, it does this using the same input data as ambient occlusion, so it comes with no extra memory cost or artist effort.

    Visibility Function:
    Yes, we were referring to the component of our BRDF. Originally, we were using what was essentially a free visibility function that was lower quality because it just boosted the highlight intensity based on the surface roughness. The new function will consider that as well as the lighting and viewing angles for controlling the intensity of the highlight. This produces an overall higher visual quality for direct specular highlights.

    I hope that answered all your questions adequately.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2014
  41. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    Perfect, thanks a lot! :)
     
  42. NERVAGON

    NERVAGON

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Posts:
    73
    Those skyshop screen grabs look beautiful! Thanks for sharing, nOObody. Very excited for the next update!
     
  43. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Posts:
    4,458
    This is getting better and better... And I am definitely appreciating the Skyshop integration... do you happen to have PBR SSS coming sometime soon?
     
  44. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    @Neptune_Imaging
    We are thinking about an SSS shader of some variety, but it is not currently a high priority. There is a lot for us to consider before picking an approach to handle SSS in our shaders. In particular, we need one that works seamlessly with multiple different ambient lighting systems (RSRMs, Skyshop, etc). So we have to consider our options carefully before committing to anything.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2014
  45. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Posts:
    4,458
    This is good to know, because atm I am using a pre-intergrated skin shader that looks EXTREMELY good with Skyshop and I am using Skyshop shaders exclusively... I'm almost ready to buy Alloy on a whim... I do a lot of character work so it is important that I have shaders for the skin...
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  46. SteveB

    SteveB

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Posts:
    1,451
    ...it's not on a whim if you need to be ready. :D
     
  47. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    @Neptune_Imaging
    Pre-integrated SSS is the strongest candidate in my list of options. Though I am a little annoyed that I can't really apply the effect to ambient diffuse. Still any improvement is better than none, and the relative cheapness of the effect is incredibly enticing.
     
  48. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Posts:
    4,458
    True... lol... I am already very impressed with the images alone :)
     
  49. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Posts:
    4,458
    I agree... I love the look of pre integrated and how easy it is to set up... I gotta snatch this up... would give me more options to work with it... the look of metals is very hard to do and also with GI, it will look correct
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  50. xenius

    xenius

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    523
    Hi Guys!

    Wanted to just chime in and give you guys a couple more screen-shots of the testing we're doing with the Skyshop support ( ie something other than spheres :p )

    $SkyShop_Ingot.jpg

    $Skyshop_Potion.jpg

    Some of you have reached out for beta access. I wanted to let you all know we should have a stable-enough build for you by the end of the weekend. It'll still be missing some features, but will be enough for you to get used to the new channel layout, and try things out in your scenes already using Skyshop!

    Thanks for all your excitement and engagement! I can't wait to get this update in your hands and see what you all come up with!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.