Games for Women

Generally "games for girls" is the preferred phrase, but I decided to use the word "Woman" because I am talking about teen and above females. I have read things which mentioned that there are not enough games for these people (other species?). Descriptions were usually sexist. On the other hand, people's individual opinions was that woman do not really want different genres. However it was made sure that they do not like GTA.

I want(need) to learn what woman want to play. If there are woman here please describe what you observe. (I assumed most of are males.) Man can share their opinion too.

 

Hi, I am a male, but I think I have some idea about this.

A friend of mine developed a match3 game to Bigfish. It was told by them that the majority of their gamers are female (75%+), and are above 30? or somewhat so. Bigfish mostly does casual games (match3, hidden object, etc), with rather high quality and a lot of polish (when comparing to an average indie or flash game).

I guess this is the demography you are looking for.

 

Yah, the first thing that came to mind was the huge casual gaming scene, which largely comprises things like hidden object games/adventures, puzzles, solitaire, that sort of thing. Probably not so much in the way of action games or violent games since women seem to equate with a gentler, smoothly progressing and more forgiving kind of game experience. That's not all women though, some are definitely `hard core` gamers too... just the majority is more casual. So I think associating casual games with games for women is somewhat sexist.

 

You might be interested to check out a book such as `men are from mars, women are from venus`, which highlights some typical character/behavioral differences in how men and women experience life. I did actually read an iteration of said book/series once. From what I recall, generally speaking without trying to stereotype, women tend to have a more gradually progressive emotional life, while men are more like a fast hot fuse that burns bright and quick and is then gone. When a woman is not yet smoothly transitioned to the right timing to be totally ready for something she will feel a discord with it and complain about it, but then once that instant comes around where she is ready you as a man better be ready too because NOW is the time. lol Women will typically be less direct and take longer to gradually build up to something. Either the woman typically slows down the man or the man rushes the woman. Also a book such as `in the company of women` would highlight the way women deal with conflict and have power struggles, backstabbing, trying to side with each other to gain more power and support, etc.. which is different than the confrontational show of strength and territorialism than men tend to use. Also recognize that most women in society have permission to be much more social and intimate with each other and act more intuitively and as a group while men tend to be more independent loners that kind of orbit around the women.

Women also tend to react to the world (passive energy), adapting to it and preparing and organizing it for safety, while men tend to just deal with figuring stuff out on the spot as they encounter it. This might relate to why women in general do not tend to like fast-reaction action/skill games. I for example like games using the keypad to control a character/spaceship to shoot stuff or whatever, while my wife can't stand these kind of games and would much prefer Song Pop or Draw Something, or harmless strategy like Catan or a simple puzzle game. Women I think also prefer a different graphical presentation, more towards the softer-feminine pretty/colorful artwork, not so much dark dungeons covered in doom. Also lessons you can learn from casual games - such as to be more forgiving, to allow the game to save position at any time and allow for short game periods, etc.

So if you're trying to design for a female audience you better not just be a man who makes `the kinds of games you like yourself` because that won't cut it, unless you happen to be more towards the feminine side.

 

My kids all like the same kinds of games that I do (Rpg Adventure games). The only difference I've really noted is that they prefer to play as a female character. Otherwise, they're happy running around looting, etc.

 

Most gamers today are women, and they don't want just games for girls. Nowadays they play almost everything.
They are the ones making things like Portal and Minecraft explode in popularity.
They play, and them comes their kids and so on...

 

You must have the coolest kids. Lol.

 

With all respect, this is something I don't understand. Probably a cultural difference. How could this be offensive (sexist?) to any degree?

I know that saying "all casual games are for women, all hardcore ones are for men" is a stupid generalization, and I guess some might take it as offensive. But saying that the majority (well, 75%) of casual gamers are women is not a generalization, but pretty much a fact (if we are talking about Bigfish games). In Farmwille, it is 55%.

Or do you mean that overly generalizing is sexist? I didn't intended to overly generalize, I just stated some facts I know.

My deepest apologies if I misunderstood you.

 

//<<<Sexism exempt post : this post is exempt from being interpreted as sexism in any way >>>\\

My sister likes a lot of Nintendo games like Mario cart, Adventure island (has action but everything is cute) and many other Mario games, also note that my sister likes sports while I do not. I have met some females who play MMOs, but I can't tell if they really like them or only play because their boyfriends encourage them to.

Perhaps many females only play video games because they want to be a part of their man's lives and considering how much time a video game can absorb of a guy's time, if females don't join the gaming they may often find themselves left out with nothing to do for hours on end.

Males are probably the main force pulling females towards games, but I have seen genuine interest in games from females in which there was no male presence encouraging game play (such as with my sister).

To determine what attracts genuine interest for females, first consider what can attract males to games to have a base...

Males:
-The feeling of making progress in a short amount of time (instant gratification)
-The simulation of defeating enemies, killing
-Interesting graphics, immersive atmosphere
-Engaging story
-Exploration
-Sexy characters (It's true that many males like games for this reason, even if it's juvenile)
-Hype, marketing, peer pressure

Females (I'm speculating):
-The feeling of making progress in a short amount of time (instant gratification)?
-The simulation of nurturing helpless cute creatures?
-Cute graphics, immersive atmosphere?
-Engaging story?
-Exploration?
-Cute/pretty characters (females do tend to like fashion and atheistically pleasing designs)
-Social hype, viral marketing, boyfriend pressure

//>>>Exempt<<<\\

 

To give some insight; women are the general driving force behind the economy in Japan. Look at what they do... I know... weird. But OH SO CUTE!!!

 

No, it's not a cultural difference. It's the fact that most games being made today are being made for men. They mainly feature nothing but men on the box, nothing but men as the protagonists, and often nothing but men in the game. Women aren't playing games because there is a huge amount of exclusion, not because of a "cultural difference."

 

Men don't have an issue playing games where a female is the protagonist or on the cover etc. I think people read too deeply into what gender the game characters are. I once read an article in which it was suggested that tomb raider was only popular because the male gamers wanted to imagine being a female, obviously that article was not written by a gamer. I have played as both male and female characters in countless games, I've never really cared about their gender, it was certainty never a deciding factor as to if I would play said game. I don't think females care either, I think it's more about the nature of the character, not the gender.

 

I think this thread is nonsense. I don't mean to be rude, but my solution to "Games for women" is simply to get females developing it on the team. I don't want to guess. I don't have to guess. Females will work on it, problem solved

I already receive regular input from female gamers. Long will this continue. I am not arrogant enough to suggest I would know what a woman truly wants. Best of all I don't have to guess.

Re sexism:
Although sexism does exist and I am against it, I hate political correctness. If I make a game for a male audience and it has - oh no! - boobies then that IS ok. Equality here - next time a woman moans about portraying women in a sexual manner we'll just have to cover up all the hot males. But then what of gay women complaining that we're covering up females? what then? equality doesn't exist from a pure design point of view. It cancels itself out.

Note: This is about portraying male and female in a game, not about the (actually real and horrible) sexism in terms of hiring females within the game design industry. So TLDR: sexism in games is the nature of entertainment - you can't ask half the world to grow up because half your gamers aren't grown up. But you can do what you can to make your company respect women as equals.

 

Men also have a massive amount of representation in games and all other media. Media, predominately, caters to men. It's not just the fact that the characters are men, but that they are men to a ridiculously exclusionary degree. The women that DO appear in games most of the time are little more than simple objectives or there to further the goals of the male characters, or to be very much Typical Game Women™ to stand in the protagonist's way. On top of this, games are specifically marketed toward a male audience with their marketing materials, showing a male protagonist even when the game offers a gender choice. In the games that DO offer a gender choice, the choice is almost always defaulted to male.

The majority of games are very much a Boy's Club, and that's going to very much affect how women perceive and purchase.

 

I think the push to draw in more women and the evolution of thinking that "womens games = bejeweled" will force the industry to take a few steps forward.

For example, perhaps we will see less of a "pure violence" push in how games are played?

Right now games are pretty much "hit stuff that moves till you win". Instead, we could go a LOT further and offer more options to advancement (that stress different types of problem solving than pure aggression ).

Testosterone fueled violence and over-the-top blood and gore probably isn't going to be a big draw for women. Sure, SOME like that... but, more often it is a put off.

 

Get more women developers, and they will make games that women like to play. Something like bejewel just doesnt appeal to males. Something like Kim Swift and portal, no T&A, just puzzle games that both genders liked. I dont think that we should be forced to make all games that only appeal to both genders, sometimes we are going to want T&A, bloods and guts and not be sorry about it.

 

Yes!

As long as you treat women as some "other" group who's external to your development you'll never easily connect with them as an audience. And that's not a male/female thing, it applies to any group. If you want to make a game for racing enthusiasts/chess players/RTS fans/any other identifiable group then you should definitely have some on your team.

If you don't, just like hippo says, you're making yourself guess.

 

Lol, yea, but the moment you suggest promoting or supporting a woman because she is a woman (or other group with different viewpoints)... everyone cries bloody murder and says gender has nothing to do with game development. I get that reaction whenever I mention I'm transgendered with my current campaign. Everyone cries "OMG SHUT UP! GENDER MEANS NOTHINGGGG".

 

I believe you've quoted me by mistake there. I didn't say that, I quoted hippo. (Though I do agree with it.)

Anyway, I don't believe in letting politics and/or political correctness get in the way of jobs being done as well as they can, so I wouldn't promote/hire a woman based solely on their gender. Fitness for a job, however, is a different matter, and if I were making something targeted at women then I'd certainly think that having at least some women on the team is a pretty important factor.

Of course, that doesn't preclude them from also having to fit the rest of the acceptance criteria, whatever they happen to be. And I think that most of the time people get upset over "supporting a woman because she is a woman" the real issue lies in the perception that other criteria are getting overlooked or brushed aside in favour of the gender bias.

None of the above is to suggest that the games industry isn't sexist, though.

 

The playing field isn't close to even. If it was, we wouldn't even be having the discussion. The only way things change are when people consciously make them change (because there are plentyyy of people on the other side consciously trying to stop them from changing).

 

Are you suggesting that we should hire women for roles when available even if they don't have the skills relevant to the job, just because they're female? Doing that will only make things worse, and it's perpetrating the exact same kind of unfairness you're supposedly working against.

 

Yes, I'm exactly saying that. We need to hire firewomen to come in and lead development projects... because, obviously, female is the only thing important in making a game.

No, of course not. There are PLENTY of qualified people to pick from. But, also, there needs to be a little "handicap" score added to their total (because, well, systematically they won't have been given the same opportunities or been promoted to the same range / scale of positions).

There also needs to be a pro-active attempt to find / promote / support them (simply to counter the systematic discrimination).

You can't just say "ok, we are going to stop discriminating now everyone " and suddenly things change. You might say that, but it isn't going to vanish and business isn't going to shift from the good ol' ways. You need to get people in there FIRST, and then attitudes will slowly shift as more and more successful games with different views are made. It takes pro-active and conscious effort, not simply a new company policy sent around on a memo going "ok guys, stop being sexist please".

 

I don't think your sexuality has any bearing on game development so long as you do your job. You are identifying as female therefore you most likely are representing a female viewpoint. I must say though you'll have a pretty tough time in the industry I guess. Lot of prejudice against women and probably more so against you. That is something that happens in all industries I think. Take racing cars for example.

I don't think the real issue is sexism in games, but rather sexism in jobs. And that old chestnut will probably continue for as long as men want to beat women and women want to beat men. Everyone is competitive in some way, and siding with the same gender makes it easier to compete.

I feel strongly that women need to compete on the same level playing field as men. No handicaps. No special favours, and no giving out jobs just because you've got tits. I can't even begin to imagine how a woman must feel applying for a job as a game artist only to listen to sniggers behind her back that "she only got the job because she's got tits!" - that would enrage me if it happened in the same office as me. I would hulk smash. Women must fight for the position on equal terms and merit.

So instead of special favours, just fire the idiots who are making the other party's life a misery (be that idiot male or female).

Look at unity? They hire females and they do not do them any special favours. As far as I know they were hired because they were talented. This is forward-thinking. Or normality.

 

Has nothing to do with sexuality... but, actually does have a bearing on game development (which is the entire argument of needing more women / points of view in game development... different lives, different experiences, bring different ways of thinking and different games).

It is both. The sexism in games is a result of the sexism in jobs. Basically, games are made by guys for guys.

Women don't want to beat men..... why does every majority assume that a minority wanting equality means that minority wants to dominate and abuse them like they were abusing the minority???

 

Then we know different women. There's quite a few competitive women out there, none more so than my own mother. Ever had an office job? Women will gang up to take a male down without breaking sweat and men will gang up to cause a division in females. It's old, ancient and commonplace. I daresay, even normal.

The key IMHO is to prevent it becoming more than a natural sense of competition.

No it is not. It is simply a fact not enough women are in key roles in game development jobs. The rest is a logical result from that. if more women worked in the industry, in proper respected roles, you can't not have games designed in some way for women.

But to get that far isn't just development. It's management. It's consumer advertising. It goes even deeper: it touches on issues like feminism: for example a lot of women WANT a submissive role. They WANT the man to go out and bread win. Is this bad? In my opinion, no. But it doesn't mean the game industry is entirely to blame. Feminists hate women who want to be looked after. In their world, women are all self-empowering.

It's like the mans world: some men WANT to be under the thumb and other men laugh at them. It's a sad state of affairs and can't be fixed by force. Some things like this are normal, natural order of things. It is only where abuse takes place do I draw a hard line.

I'm seeing too many people crying out for laws for this, equal rights for that and justice for whatever. But in the end it just makes more people miserable. Ever considered that some people want a dominant role and some people enjoy a submissive role? It's time to escape separation and labelling. We are all human here. I am not sure some of Unity's staff are human. But yes, most of us.

 

Whew! Oh, well, glad we got rid of sexism and discrimination

Happens ALLLLLL the time. For women who are extremely qualified. Who get the job by working harder and getting PAST the discrimination .... and still are dismissed because of having tits.

~_~ Like, seriously? Are we in the same world?

 

This gets incredibly frustrating for me. First, its "women want games geared towards them. Not this 'Testosterone fueled violence'". Then when developers make these ridiculous games "for women", they get offended because its all about social interaction. It belittles women, portraying them as good little house wives. "We enjoy the same games that guys do! Rawr!"

Then what the hell are you complaining about!?

So here's my philosophy. If you like games, play them. If you're seriously going to be offended and turned off from a game because of the implied genitalia beneath his space armor, then A: You have some much deeper issues and should really find something a bit more significant to complain about. and B: Don't play it.

If you want to play a shooter, there are plenty.
If you want to play a sandbox, creative game, there are plenty.
If you want to play an RPG, there are plenty.
If you want to play a casual, puzzle game, there are plenty.
If you want to play a social game with friends, there are plenty.

 

Hehe thanks for being a perfect example of why different game developers are needed ~_~ You just don't get it. Like, I don't mean that as an insult. You just really don't understand "what the big deal is". Developers just don't get it, they are like "butttt, we put ponies and sparkles on it...wtf do you want women?".

And then you just completely dismiss the entire gender thing together and go "wtf, it is just a game, just play and get over it" (because, to you, there is no problem...you just don't see one. What does it matter the main characters gender? Of course, it is almost always male, so, from your point of view, things rock and you don't even notice it).

Basically, it is the entire argument. You just don't get it Lots of developers just don't get it. They don't see a problem and don't care to fix some imagined "political bs".

 

Games represent more male heroes because more males play games, not the other way around. As soon as it became apparent that most gamers were young males, developers began marketing towards them.

I think everyone agrees with this, the question is in what way are games in the boy's club, by how they are played or what gender the hero is? Tomb raider has a heroine but she was sexified for a male audience. In Metal Gear Solid there are males taken captive that the hero has to try to rescue, The man tied up with explosives was a useless simple object, yet metal gear is still marketed towards a male audience. My point is the genders don't matter, it's how the game is designed to be played. The solution to marketing games towards females is more illusive than just making the female hero as bad-ass as a male hero. Jill Valentine and Samus Aran still draw mainly a male audience.

 

I'd like to see more female game developers, because I believe that they could bring more variety to the games we play everyday.

However, I am aware that it will take more time than some people think; It'll most likely be years before the industry has reached some level of considered gender equality.

Women in the army has to pass the same test as men, which makes them just as capable as the men they serve with.
It should be the same for game development.

 

That seems to be the popular response. "You just don't get it." But then no one seems to be able to explain "it".

I understand that not all women want sparkles and ponies. I get that. However! When targeting a broad market, research has shown that girls (in general) do, in fact want exactly that. Why do you think things like that are so popular among girls.

I, however, also understand the other type of women. They don't want to have the "girlie" crap thrown in their face. Cool. You wanna sit down and play some Gears of War with me? Freakin awesome! But then don't bitch because its too much "testosterone fueled violence".

Exactly what kind of game are these women hoping for? Because as far as I can tell, they want a mainstream game, as long as the commercials target women... which is stupid. If you saw it, and you liked it... then the commercial worked... go buy it. Stop looking for crap to complain about or "be oppressed" by.

 

Exactly my experience, too. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't because some people want to make this issue into an explosive, hair-trigger, no-win situation for ideological reasons.
But anyone who has played games knows that in war-related games, literally 95% of the players are male and always have been, but in Farmville2 I see lots of women and girls, in fact a majority of the players are female. So yes, there are gender differences, but stating that obvious fact is going to be a lose-lose proposition no matter how you phrase it.

 

It does get kinda ridiculous when people say, "more women enjoy playing Farmville than men".

Then everyone loses their minds "ZOMG YOU misogynist, sexist PIG!"

"...but ...they really do. Look. Numbers. We counted them."

 

I am so proud that my humble, little innocent question evolved into a flame war about sexism
Connected: Hell increasing...

 

This is complete bullshit and you know it. When more than zero developers are coming out and saying "our publisher told us that our protagonist couldn't be female" and then MORE developers are coming out and saying "yeah, we've been told that too" then there's a GIANT PROBLEM. When it's common industry knowledge that the only way for there to be change in that regard is to have something sell 10 million copies in spite of there being a female protagonist? THERE'S A GIANT PROBLEM. When there's still shameless objectification of a gender that makes up half of the human race? THERE'S A GODDAMN PROBLEM.

Do not even pretend that a game with a male protagonist and a majority of male characters with agency is even remotely the same as the amount of objectification and diminishment that happens to women in games. It's ridiculously disingenuous.

 

Here's a great litmus test, actually.

How many of the people in this thread that are saying that women have it fine are male?

 

What do you think the motive of the publishers is? I thought it was to make a profit.

I wasn't suggesting that male characters are objectified as much as female characters, I was pointing out that even in rare examples where they are it still doesn't make a difference about the target audience.

You seem to be confused as to what my argument is. I am not arguing that male characters are being objectified the same as female characters (I won't get into male characters being depicted as expendable tools). My argument was that just making more heroes female won't do anything to make games more desirable to play for female gamers.

The topic of this thread is "Games for Women" not "Equal Rights for Video Game Women".

 

"Publishers need to make a profit, which means that's why there's so few female protagonists!"

"The gender of the characters doesn't really matter to the target audience!"

These are two pretty opposed statements you're making here.

Oh PLEASE. You pointed out an instance of a single male character in a game FULL of male characters with a male protagonist. Then you had the ridiculous notion to say that that somehow proves your point that it doesn't affect the target audience? No S*** it doesn't! Because the remaining 99% of the

Your "expendable tools" are expendable tools with agency. And from your position I guess you can't really see how bad the situation really is.

Gee, maybe the fact that the thread is "games for women" is making bizarre assumptions like "PUZZLE GAMES!" instead of "maybe stop making major games exclusively for men."

 

I'm pretty sure women are allowed to play those games too. In fact, there are more female gamers today than ever before! They must like the games that are being made. Right?

No? They're playing them, but secretly hating them? Well that seems silly.

Marigold, I think I've seen you use that "they have agency" line about ten thousand times on these forums. Is this something you've recently heard in school?

I don't know what games you're playing, but the female characters make their own decisions and act of their own accord just as much as men do in the games I've played. In fact, the only one's I can really think of that don't are OLD games, like Super Mario Bros and Legend of Zelda.

 

Honestly, nowadays there is no such thing as "Games for Women"

I really don't see the need to make games specifically targeted to one gender, since everyone has vastly different tastes. Going back to the OP's question, I play Battlefield 3, Halo, Devil May Cry, Tomb Raider, Ridiculous Fishing, Wordament, Clay Jam, Bejeweled, Mass Effect, Metal Gear Solid...and a tonne of other games.

I don't care as long as I enjoy it and it keeps my attention, if a game based around kittens and fluffy rainbows was super fun and had awesome gameplay, I'd probably play it. If a game has women with ridiculous proportions, dudes with huge guns and blood everywhere, I'd play that too, again if the gameplay was awesome.

If all you're thinking about when making a game is, "will [insert gender] play this" then you need to step back and think of the bigger picture. Women have been playing games way before it hit mainstream, it's nothing new and I don't see why it's such a big deal, there is no need to separate genders. I'm not a "girl gamer" I'm a gamer, and that's that.

 

I never said they weren't. Stop misrepresenting arguments.

Or maybe it's a core part of character development in stories. Of course, it couldn't be that I have an interest in the representation of character development and action in games. No, it must be some ~*~new thing~*~

Ah yes, those "old" games. Nevermind that Zelda and Mario are both ongoing game SERIES. But hey, here's a small list off the top of my head:

Duke Nukem Forever
Prototype 1 and 2
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
Nano Breaker
Resident Evil 4
The Darkness
Kane Lynch: Dead Men
Red Steel
Time Shift

I could go on. That's just a lack of agency, not the representation of female characters as a whole.

 

Just because they don't have a lead role does not mean a character lacks agency. The female characters in those stories have driving goals. They make decisions based on their own thoughts. And, for the record, in Super Mario Bros 2, the Princess was a playable character. However, I don't really know that I would even say Mario has much "agency" in any of his earlier games.

 

Really.

So Tetra had agency. Sure. Until the last 50% of the game where she just goes "welp, whatever" and does a 180º character shift. But no, most of those character immediately lose ALL agency at one point and just become "SAVE ME!" fodder. And if you seriously don't think that Mario has agency when he's directly under the player's control? Agency is action, power, and control. Mario had ALL of these things.

Cripes.You were like this in the other thread too.

 

+1. Win!!

I agree with that too... I know women personally who enjoy the gritty violence in a game like Borderlands and Rage... as a matter of fact, one of my closest friends, who is a woman has asked me to teach her how to design models... and I am all for it.

Funny that I ran into this thread, because I am reading these two articles:

http://metro.co.uk/2012/12/13/naughty-dog-refuses-sexist-box-art-for-the-last-of-us-3315463/

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/20/publishers-rejected-remember-me-because-of-female-lead/

And it is pretty infuriating that they are doing this... I see nothing wrong with women in games, and I would LOVE to see more women take an active role in making games... I know women who play Call of Duty, MK, Tekken, and God of War 3 (pretty kick ass if you ask me). At the end of the day, we are all gamers, designers, etc. Right now, I am planning the ladies of my game, and I am not going to portray them as dainty princesses who trying to protect their fingernails... I saw a proof of damage on a woman in MMA Supremacy, and her face was *...and the women in my game are quite tough and hold their own. And I was smiled at the fact that, I can create a character who is beautiful and tough...

I recently watched someone play the new Tomb Raider (I am probably the minority of young boys who didn't like the original Tomb Raider) and I was very impressed with the new Lara Croft, which MAKES me want to play. And I happen to play games like Bejeweled because I do happen to have sisters, and after work, I DO want to play a quiet game.

Also as an artist, just because I am a guy, it doesn't mean I want to portray a woman in a game just for guys to enjoy... I want to make sure that ladies can enjoy the character too... example, I spent a lot of time asking women for input on the look and feel of my character... and they have given me GREAT feedback. And I applaud Naughty Dog for refusing to remove Ellie from the cover of Last of Us... and I also applaud Irrational Games for creating an ABSOLUTELY AMAZING character in Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite... it makes me smile everytime I see her helping in the game... and kicking ass.

So, it is time to step it up.

 

Don't make games geared towards women. Gaming is a skill based activity, not gender based. Good players are good players, period!! I played a fighting game against a girl(my cousin) and she asked me how did it feel to lose to a girl. I told her not to disrespect herself by differentiating herself as a girl gamer vs a boy gamer; skill is skill.

 

+1. Yup... skill is skill, and fun is fun... I used to spend hours playing with my lady friends in Tekken and we beat the snot out of each other...

 

+1 million.

You win the internet.

 

YAAAAAAAY!! Where's my cookie?

 

Oatmeal raisin or chocolate chip?

 

chocolate chip,