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What is the best level editor you have worked with?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Arowx, May 25, 2016.

  1. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Some games have their own Level editors, there are third party level editors and level generators (e.g. Houdini).

    Do you use a third part level editor that imports into Unity, or is your level editor part of your 3D modelling tool chain?

    But what is the best level editor 2D and the best level editor 3D you have worked with or seen in action?

    The best I have seen has to be the demo of the building/city editor in the Snowdrop engine.



    Around the 2 minute mark they play with building layouts, amazing.
     
  2. darkhog

    darkhog

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    As far as editors for "modern" games go (or relatively modern), I really like the level editor bundled with Cube Engine games (Sauerbraten, Marble Arena/MA2, Platinum Arts Sandbox). It's really fun and easy to use and is very powerful. For old games, I like Doom editors very much (currently I work in SLADE3 and have a great time).

    As for my current game, I've created my own level editor which borrows few things from the way Doom editors works regarding triggers and so on, while adding its own stuff. It's very powerful for its task but kinda cumbersome to use and building a level takes kinda long time with it. I'm using it to build all the campaign levels and it will be bundled with the game to give the modders the same power I had while making the game so they won't have to install Unity or do other weird stuff to mod it. Nice and easy. Nice and easy.
     
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  3. Dustin-Horne

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    Oddly, my favorite level editor was the one built into Red Faction (back in the day, I know). It operated on the premise that the world was a solid, so instead of just adding things, you "cut away" the open parts of the world (of course then you could always add back). It was also super easy to add custom triggers, sounds and textures. I created some funky levels, one with a giant barn, a tractor and a space ship and I also completely recreated the Temple map from Goldeneye, complete with triggers and sliding rock doors.
     
  4. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Haven't used any level editors for games in a long time and actually I don't think I ever used a level editor for a 3D game.

    For Unity I spent a good bit of time (I dunno maybe 4 to 6 weeks) just testing different ways of building levels. I settled on a combo of ProTile 2 and Unity scene editor. ProTile 2 I use to build the main stuff... floors, ceilings, walls basically the level layout. Then I have to go in Scene editor and manually add doors, decor and stuff. Kind of a pain in the ass but the best way I have found.

    I don't think there is some kind of full-featured real level editor available for Unity is there? If so let me know and I'll check it out.

    For 2D... SpriteTile for Unity is very good and in general I like Tiled.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  5. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Built many, both dev and player facing. Best, hard to say, depends on the framework. Generally, Illustrator for 2D, maya for 3D.
     
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  6. the_motionblur

    the_motionblur

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    The one and only thing that comes close to a level editor in Unity I've ever used is the ProBuilder suite (ProTools for Unity).
    That can do more than a simple level editor and it's pretty universal. Otherwise "level editors" per definition for me make more sense to a certain project than an all purpose engine.

    In that regard I would say one of my favorite level editors is probably the one for the Build engine (Duke3D). ;)
     
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  7. zombiegorilla

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    This.
    2d builders can be pretty universal due to shared needs, but they are so simple to build, it's often better to make one that fits the project. And 3D has so many variables that it is difficult make a general one.

    And, yea protools is a pretty phenomenal product. I picked it during thier first beta, and it was comes so far since then. I don't actually have a use for it, but I like playing with it and can see how it could be very useful for some developers.
     
  8. GarBenjamin

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    I agree with the game specific level editor approach. Tiled is a great general purpose 2D editor and SpriteTile is a great Unity 2D editor. Still nothing compares to reinventing the wheel for each game and rolling your own. I used to build tools often but have never done that in Unity yet. Need to get back into the habit one of these days. After the up front cost it would make the game dev so much easier and quicker.
     
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  9. darkhog

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    I wish I could get my hands on that 3d tile editor Unity made during hack week:

     
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  10. Zeblote

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    0/10 the round stairs aren't aligned to straight ones

     
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  11. Ryiah

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    My choices are less about functionality and more about intuitiveness. MegaZeux for 2D (pic below) and Unity for 3D. Both took very little effort on my part to learn. I was able to dive straight in and start working.

     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
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  12. Billy4184

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    Looks like XTreeGold!
     
  13. Player7

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    Source hammer editor was the best I used.. at least for quick level design/ brush editing.. did I say the best? Even going back QeRadient for quake series. Even Maya is kinda crap for doing that and I consider that the best for just about 3d anything-but not everything :)

    This guy gets it..



    he covers it for UE4 which at least provides level editing tools and not just a bunch of lame primitives, I don't think spending 100$+ atleast that's what it would be for some currency's to add level editing tools that are not even the best nor built in.. is kind of a joke especially if you want to make a game whereby players can use your game engine (Ie Unity, to add content, what you gonna do, tell them to go buy a bunch of assets to get the level editing tools.. or learn bleergh blender?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
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  14. Ryiah

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    I know right! The horrors of telling them they have to approach Unity in the same manner a professional would approach it since it's a professional tool. Joking aside though I would love to see something along the lines of ProCore or SabreCSG integrated into Unity.
     
  15. darkhog

    darkhog

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    Though that problem is related to the tiles themselves, not tech behind them.
     
  16. darkhog

    darkhog

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    If you're using MegaZeux, you may be familiar with tool called SMZXDraw! that allows for easy making graphics for megazeux's highcolor mode. Take a look who coded it.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
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  17. darkhog

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    Yeah, after I start selling my current game on Steam and other platforms, I plan (while still working on the game as it will be early access title) to learn procedural geometry just to one-up procore and release probuilder-grade tool for free on the asset store.
     
  18. Ryiah

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    Neat, but I wasn't aware of it. I had already moved on from MegaZeux by that point. I had joined DigitalMZX back in 2001 after the older site hosting the community, which I don't recall the name of at all now, died out.
     
  19. BornGodsGame

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    3D is too diverse, there is no way there could be one tool that is perfect for every situation. I think the asset store works well for this because you can just install plug-ins that make sense for your particular game or level.

    I also think it is a bad time to judge Unity because based on what they said in the terrain thread, there appears to be a lot of drastic changes coming relatively soon.
     
  20. Arowx

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    Really I thought everything 3D was just meshes, once you can efficiently render / LOD / occlude them then it's just placing, rotating and scaling them... well maybe extruding, BSP, twisting/warping, bezier curve path extrusion, arraying and edit them?
     
  21. the_motionblur

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    What you are describing is not Level Editing. It's modeling.
    Level editing has to do with project specific logic and functionality. Dependencies with your character, obstacles and interaction.

    Modeling is simply the process of creating good looking geometry in the right places. Where those places are can be more specific to the project again (look at the box structure of the first Tomb Raider engine for example) and can thus blur the line between level editing and modeling again. Where the one thing ends and the other one starts is again project/application driven again. It's an important distinction, though.

    Modeling is very advanced in most current 3D applications and as such is a very specialized field. Nothing Unity can be too concerned with because the external programs do it just fine.
    Level editing on the other hand has specific rules that you have to tell unity are there in the first place and will probably not be halpful to others. If I was to create a point and click adventure I'd probably have no use for Doom's SnapMap editor.

    As I said: lines are blurred between the two things but in the broad definition it's just a too specific thing to be reasonable to have. A geometry editor like ProTools for Unity is still a very good addition for editing end prototyping a wide variety of tjhings that can later be improved to a level editor by the individual creator maybe. :)
     
  22. Arowx

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    Wow that looks cool probably the most impressive thing I've seen in the new Doom game. I don't know it might make for a great dark point and click adventure in first person. Might be limited in content and theme though.
     
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  23. zombiegorilla

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    Painting is simply the process the of putting good looking brush strokes in the right places. ;)
     
  24. Billy4184

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    Programming is simply a case of hitting the right keys in the right order :rolleyes:
     
  25. zombiegorilla

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    This.
    3D apps have long history of building deep tools. Bridging them is the best win. Like @ShadowK mentioned DCC is right direction. Even without something like that, all you need is a little scripting and Maya (or whatever) becomes a fast and powerful level/environment builder. We use it our upcoming games, ea, naughty dog and others use it similarly. It gives environment artists/ level designers a lot of freedom, and still can produce content that is game ready/specific. It makes a very clean pipeline.
     
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  26. Deleted User

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    I'm just suprised how backwards it is in the indie world, the only real hint to what AAA do is Houdini.. Most have Maya / Max integrations or they actually build the game in Maya then dump the entire scene in the engine, the actual engine doesn't even get touched for most of the development.

    I remember asking, what engine's that? They said it's Maya, they had full character controllers / physics setups etc. etc. pretty much everything you needed to build a game in the DCC.

    There was an article I saw a while back ago saying Autodesk do license deals with AAA, when they finish production / sales they'll integrate toolsets they developed back into Maya / Max.. So we're always about 5 years + behind what's actually being done.

    Not saying all AAA work that way, but the toolsets I've seen over the years have been mighty impressive.. I still kind of feel we're in the dark ages.
     
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  27. hippocoder

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    To answer the OP we use max. We've used it for many years in game development. It remains the best all round level editor and we have several tools/plugins in place for terrain and so on, tailored to the game. Unity is for adding pupose, props, content that the engine needs to run the game with, and that includes the base geo from max.

    We wouldn't want it in Unity because Unity can't catch up to 20 years of max.

    The reason this is preferred is IMHO workflow is quite a bit faster than old style hammer editing (never understood why anyone would want old school hammer style editing. It's not faster. It appears to be faster if you want box rooms and don't know how to model, I guess).

    I kind of want to make a modern game with modern poly counts though so we use max. Dabbled with maya on and off - but it essentially it does the same job in a different way.

    Even some of my oldest stuff uses custom exporters I developed in 3dsmax like this old demo from 2000-ish on dx7 using an alpha build of blitz3d before it came out. I did it in a couple of days but that included code, modelling and writing the max plugin. It exported all the light placements and vertex colours for me to work with. That's 16 years ago. Imagine what we can do today?



    IMHO people tend to keep looking for the next tool, the best functionality, the next-gen workflow that will enable them to spontaneously create. Well I have news for you, and I've been around longer than most: you just need two things: a spine and some good old fashioned hard work. Use what works for you and do it :)
     
  28. zombiegorilla

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    This is really what separates those who do do from those who are just playing.

    No set of tools will do everything, or do it the way you want. At some point if you want to make the game you want you, will be ahead of what is available. Tools don't exist until some creates them and shares them, which isn't often. You can spend your finite amount of time testing, evaluating and waiting for someone else to build something you want, or just build your game. Maybe it will come around by your next, or if you're smart, you carry your own solutions forward.
     
  29. zombiegorilla

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    Indeed. Even for our type of games, only the tech artists are ones that spend any real time in the editor. (Vfx and ui spend some time in it as well). Art is all done in maya/max with a strong pipeline that mangoes content, and the engineering folks are in code, using the editor just to play. One of the biggest strengths of unity for us is the editor scripting, allowing content import/management to be largely automated.
     
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  30. Billy4184

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    I agree with all this hard work jazz, except when we're talking about orders of magnitude. There's no point fiddling around just to cut tiny bits off development time, for example making a script (or building a whole 3D modelling tool inside Unity!) to do something that you can do with a few key presses anyway. But something that totally changes the way you work, such as this:



    is well worth having. However, it's important that this would not be the same as a 3D modelling tool, and as such would be high level (i.e. make a lot of assumptions) and therefore very hard to standardise across genres and specific game features.

    I don't really have any problem with using blender to create geometry, it can be very fast once you get to know it, but assembling it is something I think I would want a tool for, to be able to do it easily in the editor. However I can't imagine what a useable generic solution for this would be, so I'd probably have to do it myself.

    Also I don't like noodle editors, I find them very cumbersome. For example assembling a greeble map in Substance Designer using shapes is a spaghetti nightmare, whereas in Blender I would easily and quickly create the greebles and overlay them for normal baking. I can't imagine that Houdini would be all that easy to use (but I may be wrong!).

    I think the usual way it goes is that for high-level editors (whether it's texture or script or modelling) it's often something of a logarithmic increase in clunkiness/difficulty as you try to access more precision, whereas for a 'low-level' editor (such as Blender) it kind of starts at a certain difficulty and stays there (or at least the increase is much shallower).

    So I think the main obstacle is the user interface, and I believe there's a huge potential (and I mean this industry-wise not in terms of my own project!) for 'intelligent software' to become a virtual assistant that helps you to quickly assemble a streamlined tool out of a large 'bin' of level editing functionality, for example by mining examples of your project for consistent logical rules, and assembling something to help you create it quicker. That way you could quickly create project specific tools (without excess functionality/clutter) for different aspects of your own specific project.

    And as more computing power becomes available, there's also more potential for real-time updating of large amounts of information (such as texture painting in Subst Painter) which makes it more intuitive for developers to create things the way they want to. And here, doing it real-time and in-game would be helpful in a lot of cases.
     
  31. BornGodsGame

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    I am not sure if you are trying to be smart or not. You don´t think a level editor for a card game is different than a level editor for a platformer, which is different than a level editor for a FPS?

    The tools you need to be as efficient as possible are vastly different in all of those games, as well as a lot of things not necessary in one that is vital in the other. So when you have a level editor like in Unity, of course it is never going to be perfect for any one project because it is built to be useful for every project.

    If Unity had a level editor that was exactly made for platformers, then it would be much more efficient than we have now. If it removed the junk ´I´ do not need then it would be more efficient for my game.

    So it is a bogus question to ask ´what is the best level editor´... because that completely depends on how specific the editor is to the game you are making.
     
  32. Deleted User

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    Gamemaker. xD
     
  33. JasmineJas

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    There has never been a better time to start designing game environments and level designs. More game engines and level editors are becoming readily available for free or small price of the game to anyone who wants to learn how to level design. But with more choices, comes indecision. Especially if you are just beginning your journey into level design and game environment art...hm
     
  34. zombiegorilla

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    Indeed. Game needs for a 3d level/map editor can vary drastically. Lighting, light maps, phyics, wide variety of zones and intractable areas of different types, culling/lod/imposters, optimizations (merging and/or instantancing), sub-zones, dynamic/persistent content, etc... Just building/arranging geo is the easy part, what and how the game deals with it the complex part. Ideally. like an illustrator file or maya file, the source should be fully flexible, but "flattened" for the part the game actually uses.
     
  35. iamthwee

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    Blender, most useful app I got.
     
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  36. Bradamante

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    Forge. For Marathon Infinity.

    The way you layed out the polys first, applied the horizontal textures, then switched to FPS preview mode to apply vertical textures was really cool. Forge was limited of course. For example you couldn't preview sound or enemy behavior. However, since ambient sounds and AI behavior was poly-based, the editor could give you a rough idea of what to expect.

    Anvil was Bungie's physics/shapes editor and there was a very vital community around these tools that helped each other to squeeze those tools to their max, taking them far beyond anything Bungie ever released, with Marathon:RED and Marathon:Rubicon probably being the logical end of those efforts. This community also helped each other with text translation or play testing. Bungie had a strong standing in the Mac community at the time, so it makes sense that total conversions like that often combined solid technical efforts with great art direction.

    It's save to say that Bungie and their Marathon tools got me started on the path that I am right now.

     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
  37. zombiegorilla

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    Yup. Mix in some python blender side, and some Unity side post processing scripts, and you have a very strong level/map building.
     
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