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Version Control, You, and why You need Version Control

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AndrewGrayGames, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    One of the great things about version control is that any code that you've ever committed to a project is always accessible. As I mentioned in my long post earlier, as long as it's been committed you can feel free to delete it to keep your code minimal and clean and easy to read, in full knowledge that if you want to go back to it later on you can pull it out of the project history.

    At least you comment it out. That's way better than just leaving it there...
     
  2. Khyrid

    Khyrid

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    I don't want to have to go back to some other version. I make tons of changes to many different scripts. I need the relevant alternate attempts and fail code examples to be with those scripts. I can't imagine having to load one of countless versions of my project every time I want to see one of these changes.
     
  3. tiggus

    tiggus

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    You can leave old comments in whether you use version control or not. But once you get used to doing diffs between versions it is much quicker to see exactly what changed between the working script and your newer buggy script, it is as simple as a single keypress. To me that is much more efficient than poring through the comments.
     
  4. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    You don't have to revert to access old versions, you can just view them, or if you use something like trac, you can easily just browse them.

    However, you are 100% correct, if VCS doesn't fit your needs, or the benefits of VCS are already present in your current methods, then there is no reason to use it. In fact for a single user, and especially in early stages of development of a project, it may be overkill and just extra time that could be better spent developing.

    If someone is planning on working professionally, I would suggest at least getting familiar with it, as it is pretty much standard in the professional world. But even then it isn't always a requirement. Often for short tests/prototypes where I am only one working on it, I may only use VCS as method of storage once the project is complete.

    As with everything, you should use what work best for you. It is good to at least check out other tools/methods just in case they actually do work for you, but no need to adopt them because they are a standard for some situations.
     
  5. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Alright, cool. If it genuinely works for you and you don't spend much time doing things that your computer could be doing for you at the snap of a finger in the blink of an eye then awesome, stick with it. If you can look at this list of benefits and honestly say none of them have any value to you then sweet, stick with what you're doing.

    However, I know that neither of the above applied for me. I too was initially resistant to version control systems, and I was a convert within 24 hours of giving it a go. The same applies the non-coder developers at work, and to every other good developer I've discussed it with. Nobody likes the idea at first, but I know of nobody who's actually given it a try and then turned back afterwards.

    Anyone can poke holes in ideas and think of excuses not to try something new. But until you've tried it you really have no way of knowing whether it'll make your life better or worse.

    Plus, for what it's worth, most version control systems have kickass code browsers built in, so the overhead of "loading" different versions to see your learning code are pretty low.
     
  6. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Art is a more tricky issue. Mostly because often the size of versioned binaries can easily stress a VCS database. (some are better than others for this, like perforce). Different teams and projects I have worked on have had different solutions for this (usually depends on the preference of the leads). If I am the lead or started the project, I like to keep source art in a shared drive, and only commit final assets. Other leads prefer to have a separate repo for just source art. And some even use jira/confluence for storage of source. Though usually the result is the same, that source art is NOT stored in the primary repo, only deliverable/game ready assets are. Though even that could vary if CDN is used.

    Typically for either the shared drive or svn approach, we simply rely on direct communication regarding who is working on art assets to prevent collision. Usually there is someone responsible for assigning art tasks, or areas of work are specific to individuals. For example my current project, I am the only one responsible for animation, so no one else would touching animation, and if there were, it would go through me. Granted not a perfect process, but our team has been together long enough that it works.

    About collisions, interestingly, a non-binary .eps or an .svg can be merged, though the results are usually not expected, but often very entertaining.

    ---

    There are some folks in startup in our building working on a way to merge/diff 3d files. (I think they are primarily working with daes.) Its a visual editor much like a filemerge app that allows you compare and select changes to a mesh so it can be handled via version control. I don't know how practical it will ultimately be, but it is a pretty cool idea.
     
  7. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    I heart Trac.
     
  8. goat

    goat

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    I was thinking of starting to use git. I've used cvs svn in the past for non-Unity work. I just want to version text files, but not binary files. Even with version control Unity still can get hosed you have to recreate a new project but at least you have all the text versions of your source.
     
  9. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    On the topic of art assets, we use Git and just stick the art straight in there, with the first commit being the first time the asset is used within the Unity project. We're a small team with relatively low art throughput, so that probably isn't an option for larger studios or projects, but for the typical indie game I think it'd be fine and, with that in mind, I'd say don't make things more complicated for yourself than they need to be. Version control systems don't handle binary data as well as text data, but for us it's still far better than handling this stuff manually.
     
  10. goat

    goat

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    Do you use github?
     
  11. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I'd love to see just as much as a side-by-side viewer for FBX files. Just a pair of synched orbit views of two different versions of a model file (or any two model files for that matter)where you can turn wireframe on and off would rock. It's a nice-to-have though, I can't say that we've ever had a problem locating correct versions of art files.

    No. At work we use an in-house server. For personal projects I use Bitbucket.
     
  12. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Heh, on my previous project just one of our art sub-directories had about 110gb of source .psds. (and that was for just one of the types of assets in the game, and by now it has probably doubled). It was an art heavy game.
     
  13. zombiegorilla

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    The last version I saw was earlier this summer, and pretty much just that. It showed two versions of the mesh side by side, and chunks of verts/faces were highlighted. you could click the area to make them green to keep or red to toss. They hadn't sorted out the UV mapping at the time. I don't think they were planning on addressing rigging/animation etc. If I recall the target application/use was something to do with mapping/geo data.
     
  14. code-blep

    code-blep

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    +1!
    Will deffo check them out! Thanks for taking the time to do the videos Asvardil.
     
  15. GoCatGoGamesLLC

    GoCatGoGamesLLC

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    I'm convinced. Thanks for the informative, persuasive, and constructive post. Well reasoned, well argued. TortoiseSVN fir me!
     
  16. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    Thanks. I'm expanding on the tutorials a bit every day. I'll post again when I have one complete, for peer review.

    These aren't just my tutorials, they're yours too!
     
  17. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    If you don't use version control you are completely mad, i'll put it as simply as that, if there's more than one of you, you are absolutely completely mad, given its simplicity, TortoiseSVN and site of your choice (I think we used google projects last) makes it essential for anything involving more than, well i don't know, i remember using dropbox at the start of something at the beginning of the year, it was hell. It's really, really easy to set up a repository and get your guys connected these days

    This is a great thread, good work, you should preface it with 'if you dont use version control you are completely mad' however
     
  18. AlexLeighton

    AlexLeighton

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    Thanks for making this thread! I've been thinking for a long time that I should be using some sort of version control for my personal projects, but having used Alienbrain and Perforce in the past, it wasn't something I was eager to set up on my own. But this thread gave me a good starting point, and after playing with a few I've set up Plastic, which seems to be the least baffling of the bunch.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  19. JACLEMGO

    JACLEMGO

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    @Meltdown, this isnt what I meant. There is only one branch, but each folder has its own Library folder (which is platform specific), so the code/assets are shared between the platforms, without having to "switch platforms", switching platforms is what Im trying to avoid with this.
     
  20. MasterSubby

    MasterSubby

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    Thanks everyone for the help, all the tips, tutorials and everything got me on track to understanding. Finally got around to doing it again with success. :eek:
     
  21. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    No problem. Going to work more on the tutorials after dinner and my nightly game development! I'm not done yet!
     
  22. Velo222

    Velo222

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    Sorry if I missed this, but where exactly does your project get stored if you're using version control? Is there some free storage place/website/server provider that allows you to store your entire project for free (talking gigs and gigs of data)?

    I read through about 75% of the posts in this thread, and I'm still not really convinced that it's something I need to mess with. I am the only one working on my project, and I save a backup of my scripts every day to dropbox. Then, I make a backup of my entire game project at least once a week to a flash drive. Then I save four or five project iterations to a cd about once every 4-6 months.

    If my hard-drive fails, I always have a daily backup of my scripts on dropbox, and I'm only out a couple days to one week's worth of any non-script asset upgrades/project settings.

    Version control seems like a very minimal time saver for the amount of work it would take to set up, and at the same time I feel like I'd be exposing my work to repositories/servers that are beyond my control. I mean, I'm even a little leary about dropbox to be honest.

    Now that's not saying that at some point I couldn't "come around and see the light" of the usefulness of version control, but as of right now, I remain unconvinced it's something I need.
     
  23. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    It's true that since your project is small, has a single developer and you have a method in place (both backup and iterative backup), you may not see a benefit. It is definitely a must for large projects with multiple members. I probably wouldn't suggest experimenting with on your current project, do what is working for you. But maybe on your next project, start with it and give it try and decide for yourself. Ultimately you will be the best judge of what fits your needs. Maybe it will be "OMG this the best thing ever!" or "Meh, my method works better". Best way is to try for yourself.
     
  24. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    It strikes me that there's a lot of manual backing up going on and a lot of excess space going on that could all be handled by "Right Click -> Commit", which would also come along with some implied development documentation.

    It'll take you about 30 minutes to set up, assuming you use a ready-to-go service online. How long each week are you spending manually copying files to USB sticks and/or other sources?

    Also, the project gets stored on the version control's server and on your local drive where you work on it. The server may be on your local machine as well, or it may be a remote system somewhere (which is what I'd recommend).
     
  25. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    To expand on this last bit, I saw that you're iffy about where things are being stored. This is another reason I love Git - it uses a local repository. Whenever you Push to a remote repository you're updating it. If you don't update 'their' repository, as a single user, no biggie (unless your hard drive crashes, but you're already in danger of that.)

    Using Git in even this limited capacity will give you some pretty astounding asset time-travel capabilities, which is useful for those times you make some changes, things don't go well, and you go, "y'know what? Starting over from my last good point on [insert asset here] isn't such a bad idea." *Revert* "...Aah. Much better."
     
  26. thempus

    thempus

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  27. mrcatacroquer

    mrcatacroquer

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    Hi guys,

    I want to introduce you a new way yo keep your source code safe :) You will see that it's pretty simple to use and intuitive. It comes through using Plastic SCM. Unity supports Plastic SCM in the latest 4.3 release (http://unity3d.com/unity/whats-new/unity-4.3)

    Plastic SCM is a distributed version control system, it's similar to Git but it has a nice GUI and the operations are much easier to perform. We have a built-in Unity Plugin that allows to commit files, fetch newer changes from the repository, merge and visualize the repository layout.

    Plastic SCM works natively in Windows and it can also be used in Linux and MacOs.

    You can review here how it works (from our last webinar):


    Here you can review how Plastic SCM is compared to Subversion, P4, TFS, Mercurial and Git.
    http://www.plasticscm.com/comparisons/index.html

    If you have any question or issue you can chat with us at plasticscm.net and support at codicesoftware dot com.

    best regards! all the feedback and questions are welcomed! :)
     
  28. BrainMelter

    BrainMelter

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    Nice writeup OP.

    Yeah, VC is kind of a no brainer if your project lasts more than a few days.
     
  29. NTDC-DEV

    NTDC-DEV

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    +1 for Plastic SCM.

    I've been using it for over a year with Unity and it's awesome. Now with it's integration in 4.3 it's even better.

    Easy, solid/stable, artist-friendy and programmer-happy. Did I mention easy? And solid? I mean... I really don't see the point of SVN or Git. I can do both DVCS and CVCS with Plastic SCM if I decide to setup my workflow for it.

    Also, last but not least, it's fast. I have no problems with the speed.
     
  30. Wild-Factor

    Wild-Factor

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    Is there an online provider (cheap) of plastic repository ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
  31. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    Do you have redundancy at an off-location site? What happens if your office building blows up?
     
  32. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    To be honest, assuming that it's as good as people say it is, the only reason not to go with Plastic would be the pricing. Even there, though, you need to have 16 or more people before you need a paid license, and if you're running a studio with that many people then the ~$9000 that the perpetual license would cost theoretically shouldn't be a big deal (the subs would be worth considering too), and it's a fraction of one developer's salary for a potentially significant whole-team productivity boost.

    I guess another question would be, if you want to get your stuff out of Plastic and into another SCM later on, are there options for that?
     
  33. mrcatacroquer

    mrcatacroquer

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    Not yet, but in the incoming months it will be ready :)

    Right now what you can do is set up a cheap amazon EC2 Linux machine and use it as your central Plastic Server. Although it's a central server it doen's requite a big hardware and a small mysql server will work for hundreds of developers.
     
  34. mrcatacroquer

    mrcatacroquer

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    You can setup a nightly replication to a backup server and you'll sleep with no worries :) You can even set the replication every 15 minutes if you want... or even after any commit!!! :)
     
  35. mrcatacroquer

    mrcatacroquer

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    As you said it's a fraction of a dev salary and it will boost you productivity saving a lot of time.... BTW, for c# and javascript files you can use a semantic merge tool instead a line by line diff tool... it will blow your mind at the time of resolving merge conflicts :) http://www.semanticmerge.com/

    Regarding your question about migrating from/to Plastic, we are compatible with Git as we can handle fast-import/export files BUT the really good point here is we are fully compatible since we use (and contribute to) libgit2 (http://libgit2.github.com/), that means that a Plastic SCM repo can be translated into a Git one and viceversa. For example, you can clone a gitHub repo into Plastic :)
    We are having the same for TFS and just finishing a prototype of P4.
     
  36. NTDC-DEV

    NTDC-DEV

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    Also ( I'm not paid or hired by Codice Software), their support is great, even if you only have a free license, and the documentation is really accessible and not cryptic like other VCSs.
     
  37. HunterPT

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    The integration with unity mentioned in the previous page, can only be used if you have unity pro with a team license, if you have either unity free or unity pro without team license you won't be able to use said integration.

    That being said plastic SCM can easily be used with their own client interface, which works really well, and has all the features you need, adding to that if you use Visual studio you pretty much get all those features integrated with visual studio, making for a pretty seamless workflow.

    I know that mrcatacroquer advised setting up a amazon EC2 server, but I would not advise that, while both a amazon EC2 or a google app engine would work very well, they would need to be setup, and in the end they would have no graphical interface (as far as I know), for the actual repository.

    Personally I would just go for some popular git provider, like bitbucket or kiln which have free options, visual interfaces, and don't have much in the way of setup time, and if they stop suiting your needs for what ever reason you can always switch to something else (like the amazon ec2 mentioned) and not lose anything.

    You can just sync to something like bitbucket, github, kiln or well any other git server (including your own), which is what I use for offsite backups, now granted I use this for code, but it works the same for assets, the only difference is going to be related to how much said providers will allow you to host in there (bitbucket has a fair use policy for example), but that's not really a plastic scm related problem (nor is it likely going to be a problem really).

    So in short you aren't tied to plastic scm, you are merely tied to git based systems, and by tied I mean if you want to move your version control to say svn you won't carry all the revisions with you, you will OFC be able to carry all your project files, and do with them what ever you wish, plastic scm does not modify your files in any way.

    P.S. Just so there is no confusion here, I don't work for plastic scm, so the information provided could potentially be wrong on some level (doubt it but...).
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  38. mrcatacroquer

    mrcatacroquer

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    Hi!

    Regarding the Linux setup for an Amazon EC2 machine, I have to say that it takes 30 seconds, less than creating a Bitbucket or Github account :p . We have rpm repositories and you just need to type "apt-get install plasticscm-client plasticscm-server" to get it working. More info here -> https://www.plasticscm.com/plastic-for-linux/index.html

    The Github or Bitbuket approach on the other hand can work perfectly. At the end of the day you will need a local Plastic SCM repository and a Git cloud repo. It's also, pretty easy to use: http://www.plasticscm.com/gitsync/index.html

    We are talking with Unity to try to avoid purchasing a Team license, but even without the plugin you can use the Plastic SCM GUI, the "transparent scm" feature (http://www.plasticscm.com/features/transparent-scm.aspx) will be enough to make your development easier than today.
     
  39. HunterPT

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    Not to get on a debate about the all amazon ec2, since it's somewhat outside the topic, and while I can see why someone that has already things setup would think that the difference is small, I can assure you it's significantly more trouble than setting up a bitbucket / githubt / kiln account.

    You need to have an amazon account, then amazon asks for quite a few details, a credit card (which they will charge if you pass the limits), and they require confirmation by phone, then when you ask for the server it takes a couple of seconds for it to automatically install and start. Now you have a few things to configure like setting up the ip (not going into the all security thing since that's pretty optional), you will then need something like putty just to connect, which in turn has it's own configuration, and you also need to use puttygen to convert the key, then you will need to install the plastic scm server there, change any configuration you might wish to change (which granted isn't mandatory at all), after the install is done (or before) you will still need to go and open the port, after that you OFC need to sync it up.

    In comparison on something like say bitbucket, you need to go register an account which only has 3 mandatory fields and a captcha, and alternative you can use a google, facebook, twitter or github account, verify the email they send you, create a repository there (a step which takes less than 10 seconds), and then sync up.

    Now OFC setting up a amazon EC2 to run a plastic scm server is hardly a herculean task, but it does require some knowledge in at least basic networking and basic linux, and if you are on the fence about using version control, you more than likely have never used version control (or else you would have jumped the fence and would be dragging people over it), and not to stereotype people here, but if you have never used version control you are also unlikely to be a linux user.
    So in the end in my opinion for a new user that wants to try his hand at version control, getting it on bitbucket or similar site presents a significantly smaller commitment on the user part, and unless I'm unaware of some advantage feature wise of rolling a plastic scm server (which may very well be the case), the end result is similar but with some advantages for services like bitbucket since they also provide a visual interface and bug tracking capabilities (not the best), before we put the less important stuff like the all social features, extensions, and "softwareless" accessibility

    That being said for new users that just want to try it out, to see if they want to keep it or not, the best thing they can do is just to not care about options, just install plastic scm on the PC, follow the instructions and don't care much about options, try out a few commits and undos, after the first undo at least code wise I would wager that most people would instantly be converted to version control.

    That would be nice, still have no idea why unity charges for that, in the end it's bad for them, projects without version control are more likely to come out with more bugs, which in turn gives a worse reputation to the engine (despite not really being unity fault), and adding to that, by making it seem like it's not really a standard option for unity, it also makes users think that version control isn't really that important, which leads users to adopt more error prone (and worse) methods like manual backups.

    As for the transparent scm, yes didn't want to lead people to think that if you don't have team license you can't use plastic scm (or other forms of version control), was just merely pointing out that the integration required team license, since the video shows the integration and it can lead people to think that they are suppose to have the integration despite not having the team license, which may cause some frustration.
     
  40. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Come now, since we'd have to make an Amazon account I don't think that comparing install/setup time to account creation time is particularly meaningful. :p

    I assume you're from Codice? It's nice to see you popping in here. I'm a big fan of developer community involvement!
     
  41. mrcatacroquer

    mrcatacroquer

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    Hehehehe ok! As I already have a few EC2 machines for my personal geek stuff I thought it would be easier... It's just another option, as I said using Bitbucket or Git will also work for us :)

    Regarding the license model Unity is using with SCM providers... It's something we think it has to change to allow more people start using a real SCM engine. I agree with all the reasons you gave....
     
  42. mrcatacroquer

    mrcatacroquer

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    Yep! And if you need more information about Plastic SCM even to development detail I'll help you :)
     
  43. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I do have a question. If I'm using Bitbucket's Git hosting as my back-end and I don't have Unity Pro (as I'm referring to my hobby stuff here) what benefits would I get from Plastic? A fancier UI is nice, but isn't enough to convince me to switch over on its own.
     
  44. HunterPT

    HunterPT

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    That would depend on what you already have as your front end, they have a features page http://www.plasticscm.com/features.aspx which is likely going to show things a lot better, but if you are looking for a life changing feature you are unlikely to find one, it's more likely you will find that it's what you already have but done better.

    Anyway it's free, so you can always try it, there is very little in the way of setting it up, just install it create the local repository and sync up with bitbucket.
     
  45. inafield

    inafield

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    I just setup VisualSVN. Took me 7 minutes including download time to setup. That was disturbingly easy. Any non-programmers complaining "it's hard" should step away from a computer.

    I'm sold. Always knew it was good, but didn't realize it was that easy for even small personal projects. I'll probably set up an off-site repository tomorrow in case the house burns down.
     
  46. moifa

    moifa

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    This is a great thread that deserve to be read by all indie dev. I have been using unity and perforce for almost a year now. Our team is only 3 people working at different places. I find perforce doesn't work well with unity and I have to maintain my own perforce server. It is slow when submitting and syncing files. So I decide to change to another VCS.

    Different types of VCS
    http://biz30.timedoctor.com/git-mecurial-and-cvs-comparison-of-svn-software/

    After I stumble over this great article in gamasutra, http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Burk...S_Mercurial__Bitbucket_step_to_step_guide.php.

    This is my current setup now:
    DVCS - TortoiseHg
    Repo server - Bitbucket (free up to 5 users)
    Jira for bugs tracking.

    I really like Atlassian products, their UI and support is really good. I would like to know what other people are using as well.
     
  47. mrcatacroquer

    mrcatacroquer

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Posts:
    9
    Why don't you give a try to Plastic SCM? It really works great with Unity and also with Jira....
     
  48. Smooth-P

    Smooth-P

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Posts:
    214
    The fact that this thread has to exist really says something about how ignorant (no judement in that, newbies don't know what they're missing) and/or straight up bad (some people are willfully ignorant) the average Unity user is. Hell, even the well above average ones... Are there really "professionals" who sell assets to others arguing AGAINST version control?

    It just blows the mind.

    P.S. Git has changed my life. And infinitely for the better.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
  49. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,617
    * shudder *

    I certainly hope not!

    It truly is shocking the answers I get sometimes when I ask people what version control they're using. I often get straight faced answers along the lines of "we keep copies of the files with the date at the end". What's almost depressing is that this is often from people who do in fact know better, and want to use a better system, but are roadblocked by others who simply don't want to change, or ridiculous bureaucracies who make such changes prohibitively difficult.
     
  50. Voronoi

    Voronoi

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Posts:
    584
    Jumping back into this again... I posted much earlier in the thread, as a new user to version control I had tried it before and was not able to get it up and running. I have to say, that PlasticSCM is a much nicer implementation than anything I've tried before. The branching structure makes sense to me, and I am finally able to say that I have a version control system up and running on my Mac laptop.

    Now, my next hurdle, or task, is trying to imagine how to use this with a team. I would like to have a repository that is not on my machine, and I think using a commonly used site like Git would be ideal. I was able to work with Git just fine, and had a local/remote copy set up.

    My question is, how do I use Plastic as my main front end, and use Git as the common place where the team checks in or out the latest build? I'm just not getting this last part, and have not found in the Plastic docs how to do this. Note - I am not running Windows, and I don't think I can use the Gitsync plug-in mentioned,