The "I have one piece of advice to give" Post!

I understand this Ryiah. I realized a few months ago during work on this project that even though I really wanted to create a seamless space/ground transition in my space combat game I lacked the skills, time, and resources to do that. I could place a bunch of massive planetary spheres in space and create some simple landing gameplay but at that point what? You need things to do on those planets and terrestrial life is quite complex.

I thought of creating Earth in the future but the problem I found with that was Earth already has 9?Billion inhabitants and is quite developed. It would be impossible for me to recreate the entire planet. There are always solutions though. Maybe Earth could be a Mad Max esque post apocalyptic environment.

Recreating Earth is going overboard but creating something people know, also harbors the expectations of being able to visit say ones own neighborhood!

Then I did realize I could do some other things which would be just as cool and interesting in my game and would be at least within my ability. That post I made about stylized games is something I fully intend to try out for it. It will save me time, money, and most importantly a whole lot of anxiety about the production values!

Apologies for the negativity though. I don't think I got good sleep last night... its hotter than hells kitchen here!

 

Not even a AAA outfit would be mad enough to create a replica of earth even on a 1/10th scale.

I'm just going to come out with it, limiting your scope can be highly detrimental although having a large scope can be just as detrimental if not worse. You need to set a deadline, whether it be 18 weeks or a year and STICK TO IT.. (If you know it's going to take another three years, bin it)..

The IOS market is a no go unless you're EXTREMELY business savvy with money to boot. The PC market has MUCH higher expectation and demand because it's been dominated by AAA and mid sized "Indies" like early Crytek for well over 20 years.

The console market won't entertain you unless you have a DAMN good game.

Anything that's going to push you past your deadline gets scrapped, at some point the training wheels have to come off.! You have to suck it up and be a professional developer..

If you're burnt out, don't be afraid to chuck it in the bin.. Take a break, start fresh with a new idea and go for it.!

IF You're still learning, none of the above applies..

 

Make something outside the box, something unique that has its own personality/appearance and stands out as different. Make it fun. Don't make it suck.

I think also we have to beware that having an awesome tool like Unity can make us LAZY about just what level of proficiency we need to have in order to, relatively, stand out from the crowd. We might be benefiting greatly from the power of the tool, and ending up with a pretty cool result, BUT so are many many other people... so you have to be able to above and beyond the norm, and beyond what everyone else is doing with the same tools. I guess this kind of suggests Unity doesn't gaurantee you'll come up with a good game that stands out enough, you have to bring something more to it yourself.

 

Agreed, however I was leaning more toward "some xp > no xp". In other words don't say "Hello game dev professionals, I have never written a single line of code or have a single shred of knowledge in game development aspects period but I want to make a game so please join my team and I will watch some youtube videos and eventually figure out how to contribute to the project so we can make Doom 6!"

Now I am all for "Increasing Knowledge for one's self" but taking on something ridiculous with no prior experience at is just a failure waiting to happen.

I agree with you wholeheartedly though, just clarifying what it was I was implying.

 

Taking a break from the forums is a good thing. It's been about a week since my last post and I must say I feel kinda recharged.

I visited some other sites that seemed more in line with my own views of making games just because it is fun and we love games.

Checked out the Uzebox. Now see this is the kind of thing I think is very cool! I may just need to get the kit. I bet it would be a ton of fun developing games for this thing.

Also, spent time playing some NES games and have a new appreciation for Super Mario Bros. Watched my girlfriend play SMB and show me a lot of the secret spots in the game and such. The game really is a masterpiece. Must admit I was never that into it long ago.

This all kind of reset my thinking back to align better with who I am and not get so caught up in all of the money making madness in the games industry.

Anyway, maybe take a break from time to time should be one of a developer's golden rules. Thanks @Gigiwoo.

Break not done yet. I think I will try to visit here only a couple times per week going forward.

 

That reminds me of something I wanted to ask but so far haven't.

There's a hell of a lot of advice being passed around in this thread, and much of it has to do with ideas about how a game business should be run, how much profit it should make, etc. etc.

For the sake of clarity, can we get a show of hands from the people who make a living developing games? As independent developers, NOT working for someone else. I'm talking about the people who don't have another job, the people who have released at least one product into the field and had enough time to analyze why that product succeeded or failed, and then continued on to make a new game or support the current one. The people who rely on indie game development to put food on their table. I believe there are a few here in this thread. Raise your hands.

After all, the original post did say:

I think in threads like this it would be very helpful to know where people are coming from.

 

*raises hand* 5 years living off game development, working with my brother.

 

Well it depends, do you mean working for another company or as an Indie owning a company and releasing games? Because I suppose I could take some credit for Battlefield 3 ?

I've released a beta of a game when we were two members that did pretty well, apart from that the big one is the one were working on now.

I've been doing game dev for 12 years though in total (amongst other things).

 

Yeah I mean people making a living as indie devs. I could take credit for several major titles (fellow EA alumni) but that was while working for someone else so it's not what I'm saying here. I mean specifically working for yourself, as in indie dev. Thanks for the clarification, I edited my post to reflect it.

 

Released two game to iOS in 2010. Gave that up as I couldn't flex my arts muscles. Have dozens of frameworks as proof of concepts and two main games fr desktop in the pipeline. Every bag of groceries, all rent and bills and comestibles has been paid for by game dev since late 2009. I work 7 days a week and often 10-16 hours a day in two shifts. It is a good thing I enjoy puzzles and am not a shabby artist If I had millions my lifestyle would not be that much different. I live like a monk in a mountain cabin on a 2 acre spring fed lake 15 miles from the nearest town..no rap...no sirens..and I have surely had my fill of the big city lights, bars, parties and the utter unmitigated stupidity and vanity of modern western "culture" after 40+ years in cities like Montreal, NYC, Toronto, LA, Berkeley, Atlanta.. I would just devote that time to my pursuits instead of clientele.

Thanks for making a distinction between the wannabes and pros. The wannabes are killing the business IMHO. Just like the hair bands killed heavy metal...which led to whiner rock. pffft..

 

I've released one product. It's totally made like one dollar so far. I'm firmly in the camp of living off a day job and doing games for the hell of it. (Or I was, and intend to be back to that state soon).

I also run a slightly more successful YouTube channel with Unity tutorials. The hourly rate on YouTube is still pretty low, it works out around a dollar an hour. So in absolute terms I wouldn't describe that as a success.

It's why I refrained from posting advice for the first page or so. But my advice about selling shovels is relevant. My YouTube channel teaching people to make games has brought in 100x the revenue of my actual games. Still nothing in absolute terms. But I could envision working full time as a game development teacher being more viable then working full time making games. For me anyway.

 

I've owned two startup companies before creating bespoke products for various markets and did well out of it. Which I believe is all relative, especially in a market where it's monopolised by the big dudes and small companies hardly get a look in..! Although potentially fiscally more viable? If you do well.

I've probably worked on about "6" indie dev projects, helping them to get where they needed to go. That ranged from platformers to MMO's.! But I can't really class them as my games..

Also been doing games and engines for a long time (as an employee), thought it was time to break the chains and give it a go myself. So here I am, I'll never say I'm a GURU and have still a lot to learn about running an Indie myself..

But I don't believe I'm clueless.. Or maybe I am? Time will tell.

 

I'll clarify my original post: 12 years, all of which are independent! Take that you corporate drones!

 

All business experience is relative in the sense that it pertains to the goal of making money, sure. I've owned a few startups myself, some wildly successful, some utter and complete failures.

What I was getting at is this thread is about game development specifically. And the sub-thread to which we have been replying is about the business of independent game development specifically.

I see a lot of advice being given out that appears to be geared towards this particular business, and I wondered how much of that advice was based on actual experience at releasing and making a living from indie games versus just common or learned business advice (from books or other ventures outside of indie game dev). Because every business is different, and every market has its own idiosyncrasies, I thought it would be useful to know who's coming from where.

Indeed. I wish you the very best of success.

 

@Ony

Hence why I was intently trying to debate @Gigiwoo methodology, it's rude just to ask how much did you make out of it. But if his way earned him millions, then I'm heading down the wrong path quickly..

A lot of it's common sense though right? You only have to look at Steam or IOS store to see what's going on and it ain't pretty.

Plus I've already hit walls of extensive challenges even with a decent development history (however I achieved it), if I'd of released the "Diablo" type game (that was released in Beta) in it's entirety to markets like steam I could of circumvented probably a lot of pain at the risk of higher competition.

I don't think I could of done it any other way, as it does feel too risky. I needed capital to fund projects before I could start it and a way out if it failed..

So as a long standing Indie, is this the right path?

 

If it's the right path for you then that's all that really matters.

 

Well, if we're going to start restricting commentators to people who make a living on game dev. Let's see some really deep insight on the process of making a living.

How'd you do well? What were your successes? What did you fail on? What were the most important parts? What made you the most money and what the least?

Honestly, for like 3 pages -- I don't think I've seen any actual, serviceable advice other than "don't". What about when it's too late for "don't".

 

Nobody asked for restrictions. I asked for clarification for the advice being given. And yes, my advice still stands, which is: Don't.

I've been making my living as an indie dev. for fifteen years. Five years before that were spent at big studios, some AAA. In those years I've seen income from game dev drop, and drop, and drop.

As you personally saw (from a private message), my latest game, after 5 months, is only now taking in $1000 per month. That sucks. Horrible. It's at "shut it down" suckitude level. The game I released five years ago took in $10k+ a month for over three years, and that was without any mainstream sales outlet. That game still makes $3k per month, five years later.

Times change and the more games there are out there and the more competition there is, the less money you're going to make. There are too many games and too many people making them, and the bubble is going to burst. I could be totally wrong. I'm not any kind of guru either, but from my position, it doesn't look good.

I do things that I'm good at to make a living. My business is really just simply being in business. I don't make games just because they're fun, I make them because at one time making games was a good, fun, and profitable way to make a living. Now, they're not (my opinion), unless you luck out and are one of the very, very lucky few. Even then, good luck taking one successful game and turning it into another, because if you don't hit that bar on the next one, the loving gaming public and media is going to skewer you alive and hang you out to dry.

This is purely my experience. This is purely based on my own views of the industry. I'm nobody. I don't have my name in the magazines, and booths at conventions, and hype beyond belief at how amazingly awesome my next game is going to be. For the past fifteen years I've made my primary living making games. That's it. That's all I bring to the table.

And about your question of "what about when it's too late for don't?", well, it's never too late. We've only got one chance here. Might as well not waste it on trivial pursuits.

 

How about combining hand-designed with procedural content? The primary areas of the game that pertain to the story could be created by hand, but the lesser important areas could be procedurally generated.

 

Here is my advice and I am taking it myself. I have two games I will finish because they are personal projects. To make a living I sell my talents in game dev and arts as a freelancer.. But the wannabes are killing that too with noise and being irresponsible with gigs leading to those wanting to contract for services not trusting anybody.. So..I am too frikkin' old to play in the corporate sandbox and despise hierarchical show up here at such and such a time gigs. Last time I worked at a corporation was as Ted Turners art director at his billboard company before CNN circa 1982. I am going to concentrate on making tools for game devs and wannabes and use the game engine for tools for other industries like the VJ virtual head toolkit I was commissioned for that gets used nightly at The Marquee in Vegas.

I despise marketing and social media so when my games are released to the wild they will stand or fall on their own merits. So any marketing advice to me is many whispers in the wind. I couldn't care less The journey of making them was satisfactory enough for me. I ain't a mercantilist and despise the headset for the most part. I am an artist/scientist and have more respect and admiration for a sketch with notations in a codex by da Vinci than all the goddamned COD propaganda shooters and MMORPG BS combined.. The best game I have seen in a while was Monument Valley which fascinated me greatly and watching my son play Goat Simulator with all 4.x physics bugs intact was alot of fun. Kinda put the boot to my anal retentive perfectionist streak My fave all time game to watch was Tekken as i love martial art and grappling mechanics. Most wannabes are mercantilists. I have no respect for them as they are in it for the quick buck and be damned to creation of worthy cultural artifacts and be damned living up to any standards except money grubbing. If they make pot legal in Georgia I will open up a Happy Pizza joint and make a million off the tourist trade up here

 

You keep using the word wannabe, and Im not sure what you mean? Whats the difference between a wannabe and someone who is just getting started? Dont wannabes just wannabe pro and are working at it?

Look at how many dozens of games John Carmack and John Romero made before Doom, most of them are hardly cultural artifacts.

 

@DocLogic – How many people 'who are just getting started' begin with the intention of using games as a form of artistic expression and how many people start with the intention of becoming millionaires?

@Ony – Are you still reluctant to reveal your company? I'm honestly insanely curious as to what a game needs to be to generate half a million in revenue.

 

I like to say, if there were 4 times as many people in the world then I could live off game development. Of course, if there were 4 times as many people there may be 4 times as many developers and 4 times as much competition so that might not necessarily be true! But anyway, I'm hoping the world population booms to catastrophic levels and that they all get mobiles or tablets!

But anyway, it pays for my lunch. And that's fine with me.

 

A wannabe is a money grubber with no ethics and an invader of a cultural scene with no talent. They look at someone like a rock star or a John Carmack and want to make that kind of money but ail never put 1/100th of the effort in. These types essentially ruin the eff out of any scene they get involved in.. Carmack and Romero are artist scientist types. They themselves are culture artifacts and will be remembered in a few hundred years for their unique contributions.

 

Sometimes it's good to step back a bit and remember that all game developers are doing is making pretty colours and sounds appear on a rectangle for other naked apes to gawp at. Quake never cured anyone of the common cold.

Bring on the money grubbers, I say. It means the rest of us need to up our game and make ultra unusual colours and sounds appear on that rectangle to get the attention of the naked apes.

And you never know, one of these money grubbers might evolve to become an experienced wizard of the colours and sounds on the rectangle. And might even one day make better colours and sounds appear than you can!

 

I would argue that one of the best money grubbing strategies is to make an original artistic game, so i dont think its that black and white. That money grubbing kid whos making a flappy bird clone for steam may be a "wannabe", but it also might give him the financial stability to make substantial artistic contributions to the industry.

Is the problem the wannabes, or is it the current system that allows wannabes to flood the market? Hate the game, not the player.

Apologies for getting off topic.

 

ummm. No. This particular mindset is a major part of the problem. Games are meant to engage the mind. Games are a process the player undertakes to enter-attainment. Games are a matrix you traverse using defined rules to achieve specific rules oriented goals.

 

Maybe. But then again. They're just games. Just a bit of fun for a Sunday evening.

 

Ability is a process of attainment completed.

If I liked marketing I would already have my millions. I do not like doing it having had to do it for agencies to put bread and butter on the table. It felt like lying through my teeth. Now if I like something I will praise it to heaven and pack..But that is not marketing..that is enthusiasm for a product or process.

 

Chess..a timeless classic...teaches many concepts that can be used in the real world. Hence why great geopolitical strategists are said to be good chess players or why Putin said Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks all the pieces over, S***s on the board and struts around like it won.

 

Sure any how does Monkey Island III fit into your theory?

 

Adventure games focus on problem solving skills.

 

@Ony - Looking for background? 20 years in software, 11 in Game development, and 4 as an Indie. I'm both Indie and not Indie. By day my title is Technical Director, where my job is building training games, which includes three national awards, frequent speaking engagements around the country, and chapters in 6 game development text books (including Game Programming Gems 6 & 7 and Game Engine Gems 2). By night my title is Founder, where I've released nine Indie titles, earning about $9k/year. I've used numerous engines/languages, had a brief stint in AAA, and co-led the development of the Delta3D open-source game engine (for seven years).

Mine is just one voice from dozens of seasoned veterans including @Ony, @ippdev, @hippocoder, and others (apologies for missing names!). The combined wisdom from all our voices is what makes this community so strong. <3

Gigi

 

Isnt that subjective, based on the gamers experience? A game made by a wannabe wanting to make a quick buck could be mind-engaging and provide enter-attainment to some player somewhere? Doesnt every game fit that criteria of being mind-engaging and having defined rules?

Therefore, you don't like your own games?

 

@ippdev I feel some anger here towards the business of games (my specialty!) We've all (probably?) "sold out" at some point in order to put food on the table. I've done it, where I work with a game I know is rubbish but you have no choice because there are bills to pay.

The vast majority of the time though I am working with games and products I believe in 100%. I, when wearing my "evil business guy hat" have been partially responsible for the financial wellbeing of some of the game industries best indies! I don't know what would have happened without me, as I am not clairvoyant, but I truly believe my work gave the financial freedom to multiple game studios to create stronger works of art in the future so that they never have to sell out.

Not all of us on the non-art side of games are evil

 

I realised I "sold out" once when I saw a documentary on sugar. And they were talking about how they advertise sugar-coated-sugar-flake-sugar-snaps to children through online adver-games. I felt it was time to change jobs.

 

Well, I guess my advice is there's no shortcut, or easy technique to stay motivated. The most important minute is this minute right now. Stop wasting it reading this... STAPH! Train yourself to avoid negative thoughts, anxiety, frustration, etc. Your goal is to be a game developer, it is within your range of possibilities to accomplish that, so every minute counts. ENOUGH RANTING! back to work!

 

First part..Aha! But that does not make them a wannabe. That makes them a budding ace developer. Nobody definitively sits in a category. By definition a game does define it's own definition. Releasing a POS like Air Control or compiling a Unity demo and releasing it are wannabes. The first is a no talent money grubber and the second is pretending to be a game dev. Like some fool playing the opening chords to Smoke On The Water is not a guitarist if that is all they can do.

On my own work. I believe God gave me my talents so self aggrandizement is reserved...though I have played that gambit on occasion in certain situations. I have accomplished some record holding artistic feats in my days..and these were just dropped in my lap as commissions out of nowhere so to speak. I am a serous anal retentive perfectionist. To toss out hype about my work is embarrassing to me. When people introduce me to new folks I cringe when they speak of my work or smarts in glowing terms.

 

@DanglinBob I get frustrated at times most certainly and try not to sell out. No propaganda shooters...no zombies..no demonic BS...no murder sims..no dancing Coca Cola bottles..I have generated alot of income and notoriety for many of my clients in 3 decades of arts freelancing in all fields from music through oil painting and sculpture, industrial design, video, film and now games. I am either flush with cash or struggling.. I see programming coherent and performant code to drive mechanics and animation as an art in itself. I love making art hop around and change form, shape, color and texture. A good game programmer is an artist. I am lucky to be gifted on both sides of the equation as I am a self contained unit so to speak.. A good Windows Forms programmer..well. I have had to wear the business guy hat myself for the past 3 decades but even then would give up 15 - 50% to someone who did the business end and just let me do what I like to do..

I did not mean to give the impression you seem to have gotten. But this industry is seriously rife with wannabes which makes getting new gigs a royal PITA as you now gotta get through the noise of their emails inundating every new job and then have to prove you are reliable because they have been burned over and over.

 

Cool man, I totally get what you mean by wannabe now. I have a ton of respect for your artistic method and your philosophy (or anyone with a vision), and hope you can keep doing what your doing as long as you want. That really sucks that contract work is getting harder, must be frustrating. If all else fails, I'll bring my munchies to your pizza place

Also, I sort of agree with you on the marketing thing, I think a really good game will do well on its on merits without any marketing.

 

@Braineeee One piece of advice from someone who has had numerous puzzles dropped in their lap and only got to eat if I figured them out. One step at a time. Land your ship on the big planets. Then figure out the disembarkment mechanic. After that what do they see when they disembark. Build the environment. Think about reusing these set pieces elsewhere..Maybe make them lego brick style where they can be put into other configs with different textures. Then..what do you want to do to engage the planetary environment. Build the mechanics one by one stepping through the gameplay. You will probably end up with something different than what your big picture is as you toss out unworkable mechanics and find something cool that did not occur to you prior.

 

I just deleted a post I'd made a little bit ago, and thought about this some more. I said to my wife, "If someone asked, ok, what's the point you're trying to make, Ony?" and I had to answer, then what would I say? I'm not totally sure. Is my point that there's no money in indie dev? Maybe. But maybe not.

I'm jaded. I don't even like games anymore. I hardly play them, and it actually fills me with dread now when I think about having to support my current game for another year or so. And that's it. Don't listen to me, because honestly I'm a grumpy bitch who is sick of the games industry. After 20 years in it, it's not what it used to be, and I'm tired of it.

If you want one piece of advice, take that one. It may be your life-long dream to make games, but if you start doing it as a living, that living will eventually eat you alive, and you may end up hating it. And then you'll wonder, what the hell was I doing all these years?

I need a gin and tonic.

 

Or maybe the real "wannabes" are the ones who got into this industry 20 years ago, and with limited skill made a lot of money, and now that more people are coming in with actual talent, they are whining about it being overcrowded?

Anyone with great talent shouldn't be afraid of competition. No-one owes you anything in this life.

If your game can't stand up against flappy bird clones it doesn't say a lot for your game.

 

Hahaha I love this forum.

 

I'll join you for the gin and tonic and hit the fridge for a shot of vodka. I've had a very long difficult week.

Just wanted to say that I think this kind of generalized burnout can happen in literally any industry or profession. If you've done something for almost two decades, it can get very tedious, when it's also attached to extreme workloads, stress, frustration and big ups and downs then it can go a step beyond tedious.

This is sort of how I feel about programming in general. I hate it. I also kind of love it. But I mostly hate it. A friend of mine was considering making a full time jump into programming. I advised him endlessly not to do it because it's such a painful profession.

20 years is a long time to focus so much effort on a profession. Any of them.

 

I believe the technical term is mid life crisis.

 

There's an excellent article about that here. Recommended.

 

Good read. Bookmarked for ten years time when I'm going to need it. I'm not sure my fathers strategy of early retirement and livin in a house made of mud is the best way of dealing with it. He seems happy enough now, but that may be more due to the natural curve, rather then the house of mud.

 

I think there's plenty of money in it, but nobody want's to address the elephant in the room.. Money for who?

That's the big question, that's the sticking point and the one I worry about often.. Which leads to more questions, what elevates YOU above the hundred's of thousands of Apple store games? What elevates you above the teams of 15 / 30 / 45 / 300? In the PC / Console market if there is 50 to 100 games competing in your space with 10X the amount of staff and money to throw at it, who wins?

The small game route to success and the "democratisation" of games is great in theory, until the flood gates open.!

Which leads to the final question, what do you do about it? Or like you said, why bother?

Yes ladies and gentlemen, this is why I spend an in-ordinate amount of time tweaking shaders and GRFX.. Because I always feel like I'll fail out of the gate, if the game can't get the attention it deserves.

Man this threads been a downer... LOL!

 

Can't speak for veterans. But for guys who just want to get in the 'biz' right now, I think the way to be at peace with our minds is try to be as neutral possible, not negative... but don't put all your hopes on slim chances of success. Before anything, figure out what's in it for you, no matter what, e.g. finally be able to pay the bills doing something you can put your heart in. Then and only then you can ponder higher degrees of success.