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Terrain Composer2 a next generation GPU powered terrain tool.

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by eagle555, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. eagle555

    eagle555

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    Thank you all for the patience :).

    Yes that's why I thought it was better to change it already instead of doing it later.

    Yes foldouts can get very cumbersome. TC2's GUI barely has any foldouts, expect for the node system itself with can be grouped etc. The TC2 GUI I have now is good for the first beta, then based on feedback I can always improve things further.

    TC has perlin noise to make heightmaps. TC2 has perlin, billow, multi-fractal and vonoroi. The other option is to import heightmaps (stamps) and they can indeed be made with WorldMachine and WorldComposer. I will inlcude many high resolution stamps in TC2.

    Can you show some screenshots? If you use 8 splat textures it should indeed be 2 splatmaps. Do you get a shader error in the Unity console? (control-shift-c).

    Reading other formats wouldn't be a problem. Raw 16 bit grey scale is actually the most simple format as it doesn't store any header information. Just the 'raw' data in 2 bytes for each height value. WorldMachine also exports to this format, there it's called R16.

    Nice! Thanks for sharing the link :). But yes 8 bit is not that good, having all height values with a precision from 0 - 255, so if a terrain is 1km high the precision would be 1000 / 256 = 4 meter, this would result in a blockery or low res terrain. With 16 bit there's 0 - 65535, then 1000 / 65536 = 1.5 cm precision.

    TC/WC create standard Unity terrain. With a terrain that can be many things that add to the build size, there's resolution for heightmap/splatmap/basemap and detail (grass). You have to keep in mind that the resolution is per tile, so 3x3 = 9 terrains will already be 1.5k x 1.5k resolution in total. Yes Build Report Tool is great for checking what takes that bigger build size.

    Nathaniel
     
  2. eagle555

    eagle555

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    I have TC2 beta now estimated at the end of next week.

    Nathaniel
     
  3. docsavage

    docsavage

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    If I knew how to add gifs I would have one of a celebration here =>
     
  4. Steve-Tack

    Steve-Tack

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  5. recon0303

    recon0303

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    I use RTP as well, and agree with this post, never was a fan of RTP's either. But Peter who makes Horizon On, GUI is pretty decent, so Nath has him helping him, so he should be ok... But we will see when it's released. and then make our own opinions. From what I seen, it looks ok . I would not say it's the best, or the worst but fine, for new users... To many people think making UI's are so easy well it's not... I spent much of my time fixing in house UI's from AAA to indie.. and even though I been doing it 15 years, we are always seeing something new...

    I think TC2 will be way better than TC1...by what I have seen. Looking forward to using.. Long as the UI is user friendly that really all that matters for now. and from what I seen, it looks like it.

    Can't wait to use this tool for our new game.
     
  6. recon0303

    recon0303

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    This.... is very helpful..
     
  7. Teila

    Teila

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    I don't have a problem with RTP's GUI. The fact that others do makes me feel less clueless. :) Thanks guys.
     
  8. magique

    magique

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    lol. I must be clueless. Honestly, though, RTP isn't on the level of bad compared to TC1 (sorry Nathaniel), and I've learned how to use it fairly quickly, but it stills irks me in some ways. Mainly the whole configuring and re-building shaders part. That's a bit convoluted and easy to mess up.
     
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  9. docsavage

    docsavage

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  10. recon0303

    recon0303

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    everyone has there own opinion, I never said I had a problem with it... I just never been a fan of it, there is a difference.... I also owned RTP since week 1, and have used it, so far from clueless, so please do not add words into my mouth... People are allowed to have an opinion if it wasn't for people like me TC1 may not be redone... so it makes Nath tool just that much better... Your welcome to ask him, I do this to help make there tools better, by being honest, if you sit there and lie to blow smoke up someone's arse, you are hurting them NOT helping them.


    With all the new tools, TC1 has fallen behide, but with TC2 that will change... TC1 has been the only tool that was any good, behides World Machine a tool I have used for years.. and still use.. So by people like me and other stating our opinions developers will want to make the changes to keep there tool going and improving... Being in game development is one of the worst field to be in, if people can't take opinions..

    RTP is the best terrain shader tool for Unity hands down even with the GUI..

    I go through this when making game, and I love when people give me there opinion, I tell my beta testers, rip me apart ... I beg them to..

    PS:
    But lets stay on topic... please.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  11. recon0303

    recon0303

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    You won't have to worry about that, TC2 is way better. I can tell you that much. I been using TC1 for years now. so looking forward to the changes, because I have to teach new people in my company TC1, which was a pain.. So TC2 I doubt I will have to teach anything, time is money when running a company... Many people here do it for a hobby so its prollly not a big deal to them.. But to people who do contract work, and own company's time matters ...

    Forgot to add Horizon On, is a great tool as well. I been using it for awhile..
     
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  12. Teila

    Teila

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    I was making a joke about how clueless I often feel. :) Have fun!
     
  13. syscrusher

    syscrusher

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    I am on a train right now and will soon lose my Internet cell connection, but I think I can help solve the GIMP issue. I need to do some testing, but I'll try to post a hint tomorrow.
     
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  14. syscrusher

    syscrusher

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    Teila, you are clueless in the same way that Yoda is. :p
     
  15. docsavage

    docsavage

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    Thanks syscrusher it would be great if you can. I tried the known method and it works but is too jagged. Work is needed is with the smooth tool. GIMP is joining Blender in my all time favorite software list. What they give for free is amazing. If I make some dosh I will be looking to contribute to those projects in some way.
     
  16. Teila

    Teila

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    What a nice compliment! I only wish that were true. :)
     
  17. docsavage

    docsavage

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    Yoda did fail his english oral exam miserably though:)
    And his forsight regarding the sith resulting in catastrophic losses showed him to be a bad manager as well. So he wouldn't pass a basic business management either:)
     
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  18. MoribitoMT

    MoribitoMT

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    I use Unity 5.3.2 p4

    Step 1.
    I convert the unity terrains to unity meshes, everything is fine
    (Note: I use the canyon from terrain examples )
    Screen Shot 2016-05-29 at 13.03.10.png
    Screen Shot 2016-05-29 at 13.03.10.png

    Step 2
    I export splat maps, but there is no splatmaps like attlased of 4 textures, instead there 16 greenish images exported one by one, do I do kind of selection mistake here ?
    Screen Shot 2016-05-29 at 13.05.30.png
    Screen Shot 2016-05-29 at 13.05.30.png

    Step 3
    I assign the material 8SplatTerrain to one of the terrains, however terrain become invisible, I assign couple of textures to material to see if it works, but it is always invisible.
    Screen Shot 2016-05-29 at 13.05.56.png
    Screen Shot 2016-05-29 at 13.05.56.png
     

    Attached Files:

  19. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    I didn't find RTP confusing at all apart from the oversalted control sliders for the detail texture properties - RTP just has an enormous number of features and you had to take your time learning what each one did

    I'm new to the tc debate so hello, I've probably missed loads, but I'm pretty curious as I've used and enjoyed Nathan's work a lot - something I'm facing right now is the use of a massive amount of texture data for a project I'm just doing to show off really, but it's a little akin to Rage, that game inspired me a lot, so I currently have over 100gb of texture data and a 4k heightmap (and a banned bing key hah) all grabbed with world composer and i'd like to do something really fancy with it, in real time - it's driving me to consider investing in amplify 2 or something. If highly efficient texture compression and streaming were to be a part of this (with ideally an artist friendly workflow), that would be lovely

    Also I've been watching a lot of material of allegorithmics substances, and just cannot see them not starting to dominate texturing in games to some degree eventually - their fx maps in particular could maybe function as generator nodes in much a similar way to perlin/simplex/voronoi?
     
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  20. rerwandi

    rerwandi

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    So, after watching this video i got some question in mind.


    They make the streaming for terrain by using trigger to load/unload some terrains.
    I saw terrain composer supports streaming terrain for some radius from player (i forgot where i watch it), which way is better and efficient ?

    Also they use LoD for the trees, why not use billboards ? which one is more better and efficient ?
    I'm currently learning how to make good open world terrain.
     
  21. MoribitoMT

    MoribitoMT

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    Any idea my question ( with images ) above ?
    Regards.
     
  22. eagle555

    eagle555

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    Hello guys,

    Interesting conversations about GUI's :). I think RTP's GUI is good. RTP has a wide range of select able optimizations (LOD manager) and features and it needs a bit more advanced GUI. Think the LOD manager is pretty cool to customize your own RTP shader for your requirements, so it doesn't eat any performance on features that are not needed. I haven't seen a terrain shader so far for Unity that can compete with RTP. I wish I had more time to play with it as whenever I use it, I always have to create content quickly in a few days like I did in TC2 and WC trailer, to not fall behind with support and programming. For TC2 release trailer I will spend some more time to get more result out of TC2 with RTP terrain rendering.

    For TC2's GUI, you guys don't need to worry ;).

    Nathaniel
     
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  23. eagle555

    eagle555

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    For streaming TC uses a grid of terrains. The streaming so far in TC/TC2 is procedural, which means that a terrain tile itself isn't stored on disk but from it is generated on the fly in the background and it reuses a terrain that is not needed anymore.

    The technique used in Firewatch is more efficient as they basically do their visual design to get the best culling possible and also spawn whenever possible lower terrain resolution. But as you can see in the video its very tedious and time consuming to make, it all needs to be thought out and tested for every possibility. And is the opposite of procedural as you need to design everything manually. For the background they should definitely use Horizon[ON], performance wise it's almost free.

    Lod's for trees mean that for further away trees they swap it for a tree with a lower amount of poly's. That can actually include a billboard for the lowest lod. There can be multiple Lod's for 1 object. E.g. Lod0 5000 poly's, lod1 2000 poly's, lod2 4 poly's (billboard).

    Nathaniel
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  24. eagle555

    eagle555

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    Well you have 3 x 3 = 9 terrain tiles. For each tile it needs to export 2 splatmaps (0 - 8 with zero included is 9). So in total you have 9 x 2 = 18 splatmaps. I see that the naming is still with numbers (the old TC tiling system) instead of x0_y0 so that makes it a bit confusing.

    I made a fix for this. You can import the Unity package into your project and then export the splatmaps again and it should give the correct naming, so it will be much more easy to assign.

    Nathaniel
     

    Attached Files:

  25. Artomiano

    Artomiano

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    Please don't beat me but... I need to make an unorthodox question: What are the advantages of the new TC2 opposite the new WC2?
     
  26. docsavage

    docsavage

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    They are not really competing products but products that compliment each other. TC1 and 2 are mainly what you would use for smaller game worlds with more detail - although by smaller they can still be big. WC is great for creating massive gameworlds. It also is great for just getting data and importing it into TC allowing quick creation of realstic and even real areas. That's my simple understanding of them. There is so much to them both though.
     
  27. Artomiano

    Artomiano

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    Hm... let's talk about WC2 Standard. As I understand, only the expensive WC2 Pro - through the tiling system - is useful for large worlds. So... is TC2 similar to WC2... maybe? ;)

    Okay, in your opinion, TC is better for "fueling up the world", right? I ask this, because WC2 can do it, too.

    Can you explain, please?

    At this time, I only own TC1. For my next project, I think about an upgrade - to TC2 or WC2. I'm not sure what I should do. ;) Both Assets could do the job. My worlds are not soo big. And the newest thing is to stream worlds. If I understand it right, this can be done in TC2 and WC2. So, tiling seems not so important for me. But the erosion and sedimentation of WC2 sounds great... a game changer? I don't know...
     
  28. docsavage

    docsavage

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    Ahh, looks like we have our wires crossed:) I am now thinking you are on about WorldCreator2 or something similar??? When you said TC and WC I thought you was on about Nathaniels other product WorldComposer - https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/13238

    Sorry. Can recommend WorldComposer though if you own TC1 or 2:)
     
  29. Artomiano

    Artomiano

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    Erm... sorry. Sure - I mean World Creator 2! :confused:

    World Composer I already own. ;) But I do not really think that you can compare World Composer with World Creator. If I'm right, with World Composer you can "only" capture real world maps. This is a great feature! But if I want change some world details, I have to use some other tools, like TC or World Creator.

    My question now: What's the main differences between TC2 and WC2?
     
  30. eagle555

    eagle555

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    It's the current WorldComposer 1.5 that I showcase in the trailer :). If have something planned for WC but that is for after the release of TC2. Both TC and WC could always do multiple terrain tiles. And both can create large and small terrains.

    WorldComposer extracts heightmaps and satellite images from the real world. And can create Unity terrains out of it.

    TerrainComposer is more like a photoshop for terrains. With TC you can create/import heightmaps, splatmaps, colormaps, trees,grass and details. While WC terrain only comes with a heightmap and a colormap, so TC is very complimentary to WC. For example the trees is the WC trailer I placed with TerrainComposer based on the satellite imagery colors (dark green).

    You can see the features of both products on my site:
    http://www.terraincomposer.com

    Nathaniel
     
  31. Artomiano

    Artomiano

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    Erm... sorry for my confusion, Nathaniel. I mean the new World Creator 2 - not World Composer. World Composer I already own. ;)
     
  32. docsavage

    docsavage

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    My fault I should have noticed the 2 at the end or WC. Been looooonnnnng days lately:). I don't know anything about WorldComposer sorry to confuse you.

    Edit - @tom.art, Sorry should read - I don't know anything about WorldCreater sorry to confuse you. Like I said long days.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  33. eagle555

    eagle555

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    Ah sorry yes, didn't read through all the posts. So TC can do multiple terrain tiles from the very beginning when I released it 3 years ago.

    Yes the erosion in WorldCreator looks great, impressive that they got it working on the GPU. It's something I will look into after releasing the first TC2 beta. TC2 comes with many high resolution heightmap stamps that already have erosion made with WorldMachine. So later I'm going to look into adding erosion (GPU erosion) as a node that can be placed at any place even as a mask.

    Think the main difference between TC2 and the rest of the terrain tools for Unity (as far as I know): The other terrain tools apply the rules per element (except for Map Magic which is node based, but it doesn't go that far as TC2 does with layers/layergroups, etc), like a splat texture or tree have different rules like height/slope/curve etc. But can you have control how those rules interact? Not so much...While in TC2 you put a certain splat texture (tree/grass or object) or more into a layer, and for this layer you can put multiple nodes, like a node for height and a node for slope another for perlin noise, etc. And you can change how these nodes interact with each other (add/subtract/lerp/multiply/min/max, etc). So that's a more open and powerful system already. Then you can mask the layer with multiple nodes (height/slope/shape, etc) in the same way. Then you can put these layers into a layergroup and can do the same interaction with the layers. Then you can mask a layergroup and blend with other layers/layergroups. Then later this will be an entire terrain group and these could be mixed as well. So extremely powerful. This advanced layer/group/mask system requires a special GUI. What result that can give you can see in the TC2 trailer, you can blend multiple terrain types (biomes) together very easily. Or you create 1 terrain type but with different biomes of texturing, vegetation or biomes of object placement. Basically the whole system is more open and limitless and you can create whatever you want where you want.

    I think what is cool and important about a terrain in a game is that it needs to be dynamic. Like you don't have the same splat texturing and vegetation, etc applied everywhere which makes the terrain very uniform and it can get boring quickly.

    TC2 is designed to be able to create a very dynamic enviroment without much effort, of course you can create an uniform terrain with it as well even more easily.

    Nathaniel
     
  34. nosyrbllewe

    nosyrbllewe

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    They both look like great tools. Though, if you aren't sure which path to chose, I would recommend TC2 just because of the price as it is only a $15 upgrade compared to $59/$189 for World Creator
     
  35. recon0303

    recon0303

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    This is something many tools are lacking, and I been saying for awhile now, which has always bugged me, so this is so important when making large terrains .. So looking forward to this.
     
  36. MoribitoMT

    MoribitoMT

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    I have been working with terrain composer for mobile games, recent weeks, I tried hundreds of variations and tested on actual devices (Nexus 7, Galaxy S4 Mini and S2, iPhone 5 )

    Finally I find good results, I would like to share it with you for mobile developers. Maybe there could be even more improvement which I do not know, I welcome any suggestion.

    Here is how the game look like ( still in development )
    Screen Shot 2016-06-01 at 13.11.06.png

    Here is the my own best terrain and quality settings, and performance results on devices
    TC_Best.jpg

    Here is latest results
    Terrain + EdyVehiclePhysics + NGUI ( all seen in image above ) = 60 FPS in Galaxy S2
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
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  37. Teila

    Teila

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    So, with the procedural terrain in TC2...if a player walks and the terrain streams, is it different every time? So if he heads out from The City, and the terrain is created on the fly, will he walk through the same terrain the second time he heads out in the same direction from the city?

    If not, can we use TC2 to make semi-large open worlds that stream?
     
  38. Becoming

    Becoming

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    Procedural does not mean random... Nathaniel may correct me on this if i am wrong but i am pretty sure TC is deterministic.
     
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  39. MoribitoMT

    MoribitoMT

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    Since I have learned a lot about TC, I still have many problems. I wish things were more simple.

    Questions
    Whenever I quit and open unity, my terrain changes overridden somehow and it changes everthing in terrain ?
    Sometimes, when I quit and open unity, all my terrrain disappears to ?

    I think I did not quite understand the save and load procedure of terrrain composers ? Things getting mixed up at each quit/open unity.
     
  40. Seneral

    Seneral

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    True, just as TC1 TC2 will be based on a seed - I remember Nathaniel saying this some time ago.
    So if that seed is the same the terrain will also be the same, given that the parameters did not change of course:)
     
  41. Teila

    Teila

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    Okay, thought I saw that somewhere. Thank you! That makes perfect sense and something I should have know myself. lol
     
  42. impactit

    impactit

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    Throughout this discussion, I wonder use of plug-in "Easy Road". Are you beginning to generate terrain trees, etc., and to impose the their "road". I wonder how actually looks workflow TC2 in this case.
     
  43. eagle555

    eagle555

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    Think you need a lower resolution terrain 1k is a bit too much, that's why you need pixel error on 200. But a pixel error of 200 will only render a very low resolution terrain. So you can save on memory there...

    Like Peter and Seneral say TC1/TC2 always generate the same based on a seed. So nothing changes when coming back.

    TC2 will be magnitudes more simple ;).

    TerrainComposer get saved with a Scene. A terrain get stored in the project (as a TerrainData) and in the Scene there's only a reference. If your terrain in a Scene changes it means that it has changed in the project.

    I explain it here:
    http://www.terraincomposer.com/troubleshooting/
    My terrains get overwritten in my old Scene from my new Scene, why does this happen?

    Nathaniel
     
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  44. eagle555

    eagle555

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    You can put the Easy Road meshes on a layer (GameObject layer) use a collision node as a mask to not have trees/grass/objects on the road. Like I show in this video:


    Nathaniel
     
  45. Artomiano

    Artomiano

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    Maybe one of you can help me... what makes Terrain Composer better then GAIA? Both of them are terrain builder with a mass of features. Both of them are beloved by many users... both of them will get an "great" update soon... both of them promise a good learning curve and and great extensibility...
     
  46. MoribitoMT

    MoribitoMT

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    I did not use GAIA yet, however what I see GAIA does not support multi terrain yet. GAIA seems like much more simplistic and easy tool for fast creations. However TC is quite complex and hard to use, like Photoshop. It really requires learning time, layers, mask, curves, etc.. You can create almost anything desirable with TC as long as you know what you do.
     
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  47. impactit

    impactit

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    The next questions.
    1) Let's say that I have created an area that is "perfect for me." It contains of 4 maps, and are mostly grassland :). One day, I do supplement that introduces deserts :). Is it possible to block a previous work (a padlock icon or something like that) not to destroy previous work?

    2) Do you foresee a situation where you can use such other programs (eg. WordComposer) to carry out certain tasks only interchangeably. for example. The creation of the site (TC2) => erosion filter (WC) => textures (TC2)
    Is it possible to "eliminate a step" in the process?

    I know some questions can be "stupid" but now im only speculate about what can happend :)

    Cheers
    Andrzej
     
  48. eagle555

    eagle555

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    TC2 is not an update...Its a brand new terrain tool (I completely remade it from scratch), that uses the basic concept of TC1, but the new TC2 concept is way more advanced and simplified. I agree that compared to the other terrain tools out there now that TC1 has a difficult learning curve. However TC2 is such simplified that I believe it almost has no learning curve. You can really create something cool with just watching 1 tutorial video. It's pretty much drag/drop and move/rotate/scale the nodes around (each node has a nice preview) and it uses a GameObject as a node, so if you know the basics of Unity Editor using TC2 should be easy.

    I explain in the post above what the difference is between TC2 and other terrain tools.
    http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/te...n-in-just-minutes.151365/page-80#post-2657794

    Maybe in more easy to understand words....What is really nice about Gaia is the heightmap stamping, TC1 already had this since the release 3.5 years ago, but is not that easy to setup, e.g. scaling is not from the middle and positioning/rotating/scaling is with sliders instead of Gizmos handles. But with TC2 I took the concept from the TC2 prototype of 2.5 years ago. But I made it way more advanced. In TC2 you can 'stamp' everything, even your entire terrain becomes a stamp (heightmap, splatmap, colormap, trees, grass, spawned objects). Can you imagine you make 3 islands terrains. And you just drop them into a group and you can put them together in 1 terrain (each of them can be moved/rotated and scaled, and of course changed internally). You can place the 3 islands separate of each other with water in between, or you can mix them together, anything is possible. A stamp is not just an heightmap image put basically a prefab that can hold anything on any level. So it can be a forest with different trees, or a heightmap result, or splatmap result, up to an entire terrain result, and terrain nodes can be grouped to form another stamp and you can group terrain groups to form another stamp. It's unlimited...

    Nathaniel
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
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  49. Artomiano

    Artomiano

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    So... when will TC2 arrive? Now you made me hungry... :D
     
  50. futurewavecs

    futurewavecs

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    Nathaniel I am gambling with you. You just had no idea. I am on a very tight budget so I'll get $15 set aside so I can get TC2 as soon as the beta is available. You did say that upgrade price for TC1 owners will be very brief. Then you get delayed (for good reasons... and keep it up if you need to). I spend the $15. You start talking about releasing of the beta next week and I start scrambling to make sure I have my $15. The cycle repeats. The gamble is whether I'll have the $15 within your brief window of upgrade time. You have a definite customer... I just tend to buy a lot of assets with my limited funds. :) We'll see how that gamble turns out. If you are getting close I'll have the money again in a couple of days.