[RELEASED] Nottorus - Unlimited Visual programming plugin

First Impressions of the asset. I am liking what I am seeing so far. The tool is not too difficult to understand but things don't exactly jump out at you. Right now I am intentionally trying to use the Tool without using any of the tutorials to test user friendliness. I have a philosophy that the best tools are intuitive enough to allow a user at any level to use its most basic features without any knowledge or training.

Okay here are some things I notice on short call. I want to see about addressing them there before doing a review. I really want to give high as possible remarks for this asset.

Interface is good, not outstanding but can be made better.
--Example, cannot drag and drop object from Hierarchy if you do not have any methods already created.
--When renaming variables, would be much better to go ahead and focus the textbox and highlight everything in there. Right now I have to click in there manually before I can type, that will become very annoying for most folks likely.
--Would seriously like to be able to move variables from a Class to one of its Methods or vice versa. Right now have to delete and promote again.
--I do like that the tool will allow you create multiple variables but will not write them out to code until you place it on the canvas, this is very nice, but a visual of some kind would be good to show on the left that a variable exists in the designer but has not been placed on canvas.
--Seriously need a full scroll bar for the Script objects on the left pane. Many times I have had to maximize the Nottorus plugin just to see what my variable assignments were because they were hidden below and there is not scroll.
Definitely like seeing the Overloads notation and ability to switch between them.

Experimenting...
I do like the Sequence Diagramming, very nice to see a visual view of the program flow.
I was able to change inheritance from MonoBehavior to GAIA and did see several new methods exposed. This might make using GAIA during RunTime easier for me to implement since the Author does not support that yet. Very Nice!

The CS Parser, I really cannot express how awesome it is to have this, but I did run across this tool not being able to diagram the RtsCamera Assets main script, which is only 20k in size and supplied an error during the attempt. I do see that that part is still Beta, but you can bet your baby bunnie slippers that this will be a HUGE draw to your asset, it is for me. Again cannot really express how much I plan to rely on the C# Parser... OMG!!!

Now the other serious item that needs to be addressed, really need to find a way to update the Designer with a script edited inside of VS or Mono by having a quick re-import/re-parse button. I can see someone loosing an eye, some hair, or their super cool if they accidentally wipe out something with this. Maybe should have the editor save the old CS file as a .bak and add or auto increment a suffix number on the file as a safety catch.

Welp guys, I think this tool is pretty nice, but if you need something 100% functional, you might want to wait for the Author to address some of these items, however, if you are seriously interested... go ahead and spring for it, because keeping the Author fed will keep us fed!

I will be hanging around for another 30 to answer any questions someone might have, but I am back to playing with it an I am now going to start going through the tutorials instead of trying to muck around blind here.

Cheers!!!

 

O wow, forgot to add, attempting to send a bug report froze the asset and unity along with it, had to taskkill and start over again.

 

@SirAstral, did you try debugging?
Does it have an equivalent for lambdas (not delegates)?
Are all terms in a math expression evaluated in twos or there's a shorthand way to do this?
On a scale of 0 to 5, how readable is the generated code?
Can we see some of your screen shots soon?

 

Yes) The output will be CLEAR C# without referensing to external dlls or unnecessary usings. NO reflection in output code. The reflection used ONLY in my editorplugin (Nottorus).
And yes, "AOT will be happy to compile and run" (until you make some code from this page )

Nottorus will not use it unless you use it)

The output will be only the code that you have created. Not more.

 

@SirAstral Thanks!

Wow, I'm really forget about that feature . I did it a half year ago.
Thanks) Fixed Allso I remove excessive height of that window.

Agree, annoying thing, i will fix this.

Moving class variables to local variables?

? Here is the scroll.

And as I said in post #76 it isn't perfect and "I'm working on its improvement to this day".

Wow, it's serious. But I newer have this problem(
It froze unity because it works isn't instantly. It takes a little time to connect to server, send a screenshot (if you check it). It tooks 4-5 seconds for me with attached script file and screenshot and ~2 sec without them.

 

Have not tried parsing or creating any lambdas, I will get around to that one with a project I have at work that uses those a lot for an oData project I have. No testing on math of any kind. I am just poking around on the surface for the most part, nothing deep yet.

scale of 0 to 5 for how readable the generated code is... so far a perfect 5!!!, code readability is great so far and all objects are fully referenced by their namespaces which is very nice but will make lines longer! I will try to get some screencaps together of the items I highlighted some time tomorrow.

 

Yes, I had to do it, because some namespaces has the same classes. For example:
System.Random and UnityEngine.Random;
System.Object and UnityEngine.Object.

 

Yes when you click on a variable in the canvas its corresponding dialog appear BELOW the section that the Scroll Bar addresses sending it out of the frame area and there is no scroll bar to scroll down with.

If you look at the RED circle of the float you will see that it goes too far down to see without increasing the size of the window.

Additionally I cannot click anywhere in the blue circle on the tab or the frame and move the window, this happens a lot and sporadically.

Yes I would like to be able to move the Class Variables to Local Variable and vice versa. this is the Black Line
http://imgur.com/LmLT5XI

Yea, I waited for about 2 or 3 minutes waiting for it to become available again. Task Manager showed no activity for Unity, did not even say it was not responding either.

 

I actually like this, it is not always easy to find out which namespace is being referenced otherwise. Most of my testing will come from my side project at work, where I can really go to town on this tool!

I am ready to make an official review for this product. And will have one up in a bit.

 

First Review is UP 4 out of 5 stars, still more testing to do but since there are no reviews 1 is better than none.

I really wanted to give 5, if for nothing else than the potential of this asset but I will hold off until I finish my testing, if all else goes well, I will be adding that 5th star with happiness!

 

Man... I Biffed on this one a bit.

Easy to create a String.

Cannot figure out how to create an Array of Strings. I know how to do it in code, but I must be missing something here.

The Parser cannot read an array of names into the Canvas.

The Parser takes this.

Code (CSharp):

1. public class NewScript : UnityEngine.MonoBehaviour
2. {
3.     public string[] NewVariable = { "Big", "Mac" };
4.  
5.     void Start()
6.     {
7.     }
8. }
9.  

And turns it into this completely destroying the already assigned values.

Code (CSharp):

1. public class NewScript : UnityEngine.MonoBehaviour
2. {
3.     public string[] NewVariable = null;
4.  
5.  
6.     void Start()
7.     {
8.     }
9. }

I will stop trying to play around with the Parser until you get more work on it.

 

SirAstal, thanks for investing so many hours of your time and uncovering such important details. Hearing so much detailed feedback from a new customer is a huge help to all of us. Great catch on arrays of strings! I agree with you about feeding the programmer.

Sadly, I tried to buy Nottorus but Unity couldn't process my order. Called my bank. Bank says Unity validates my card but then doesn't send the actual charge after validation. I've sent an 'enthusiastic' email to the asset store to fix the issue on their end. Being told by my bank TWICE that the wait time for service will exceed 18 minutes tends to increase my 'enthusiasm' when I confirm that the asset store was failing to actually try to charge my card... I won't have time to test Nottorus for a few weeks but, I'll buy as soon as Unity emails me that they've fixed their problem. I always have to remind myself, if you don't ever buy version 1, there won't ever be version 2.

 

If Stridemann or anyone has time, I think it might be a good idea to feed Nottorus a variety of asset source code from several of the asset store's free assets. That way, everyone will be able to access the same code to throw at Nottorus. It will also test many styles of programming and formatting. It will avoid any problems of proprietary source code. I think it will help Stridemann to identify parser issues, if lots of 'known good' running source code can be fed into Nottorus. When I get a chance, that's a major way I'll bang on Nottorus and I'll post my feedback. As I've said, a major use of Nottorus for me will be integrating and debugging asset updates into existing projects.

 

That was a refreshingly honest review to the asset store, thanks Carl

Stridemann looks to be a perfectionist, we can all imagine him putting matchsticks on his eyelids in attempt to raise your review from 4 to 5 stars.

 

@Stridemann

Looks like the Nottorus website forum is being spammed

Did you get my PM? It is in my Outbox, is that the same as Sent?

 

I feel a tremendous energy here.

 

Oh hell I'm not qualified to answer that, but at a glance I'd say they are quite comparable, and dare I say Nottorus appears to have some killer features (node to source to node)

No different than FlowCanvas or (again afaik) Nottorus. I like that Blueprint has nodes that are a little more robust to save on node building (see Play Sound at Location in my pic above)

I wan to continue to use Unreal regardless, even if for no other reason than that's what my clients use. Personally I love the way it feels to use. Very professional, very 'crisp' (I don't know what that really means )

Too late! (flips table over!!)

...yea Unreal forums has a great community but they do not want to discuss anything but Unreal. I can't blame them really and it happens here too (users roll their eyes at engine comp's, especially Unreal vs. Unity).

As RD has said, I'm a tools-nerd, so I'll buy and play with stuff even if I never end up using it.

-Steven

 

Yea, disabling captcha and e-mail verification was a bad idea
Fixed.

Yes. Replied.

 

Yep, I have been feeding code from a few assets. I have taken code from DotNetPerls to test for lambda expressions, I have taken code from RtsCamera, I have taken code from one of my Corporate Projects (couple minutes ago) and so far... not good. The Parser has yet to successfully parse all but the most simple scripts and as seen in the Strings example there are some items to iron out even when it does successfully parse.

Right now it is safe to say the Parser is no where near ready for prime time. I think the parser will be absolutely critical for the future of this product in my opinion.

I will start posting most of my findings on the Authors website as this thread will be nothing but shambles with all of the details I will be posting as we go along.

 

Yeah I can't help myself either. I even bought the assets that take you away from coding... only to import them & delete them out the same day

I guess when I look at Blueprint I'm confused because their API is alien to me, maybe some day I'll read through their docs but honestly I can't go passed not ending up with code. I see BP's are getting "Nativized" which attempts to convert to C++. Apparently not designed to be human readable per se, but good to see they are heading in that direction.

Me, I'll stick to C#

Thanks for your reply.

 

I hate anything that is not human readable. The compiler has a job for a reason. The more I am expected to read & produce lower level code the more I will hate programing with that tool in general. You can make things as native as you want, but I want to be able to dynamically switch from Visual to Line Code seamlessly. If the author Nottorus can make this happen, he would have far more market value than just here with Unity.

I have downloaded Unreal to see what BP is all about. I am more of a C# dude with my huge PowerShell background and System Engineering, but I am not afraid to see if I can parlay some C++ into systems management or automation.

 

I say just start here, then after those 9 videos, jump into the Unreal channel and check out the 3rd Person Blueprint Tutorial (remember I love tuts with application!) and tell me that doesn't get you pretty excited about the possibility!

You're welcome!

-Steven

 

IBM and Microsoft aren't able to ship just a version 1.0 parser with zero defects. Professional programmers with real world experience KNEW there were going to be rough edges. Nottorus is far more than just a parser. I think it's great news that SirAstral has started pounding on Nottorus with various asset store assets. It will make it easy for Stridemann to make fixes whithout needing to have all build target hardware. He can make a fix and ask users to test the new fix on wii, ps4, iOS, etc...

Knowing the source code will eventually be available, users 'will eventually' be able to patch, tweak, or code-fist solutions. Until the source code is available, I can imagine that I may write a C# pre-preparser for Nottorus to clean up my source code input so it won't choke Nottorus. I could do that without access to Nottorus source code. Not a perfect solution, but valuable to me until Nottorus' parser has all the kinks worked out.

I'm impressed that Stridemann has reacted so professionally to SirAstral's tests and honest review. Stridemann publicly shows a "Good catch, I'm on it!" professional style. That makes me feel we will work out the kinks pretty quickly.

I've had... I mean I've seen in many OTHERS a more defensive style that doesn't encourage honest feedback... I mean, when you've put your blood, sweat, and tears into this parser for months and this BABOON has to put their curly brace flush against a closing bracket... I mean YOU'D get mad too, wouldn't you...

 

Made some more progress in the tool. Still can't stay away from the parser as I am using it to import basic scripts to glean information on how to build things in the Designer. I will be taking it slow for now as I am probably killing the Author with things I am finding out about the product.

Was able to build a Switch statement without a guide... well there is not guide for that yet. Nottorus likes to create Variables out of everything if you do not watch it. O'yea another interesting finding... avoid using shortcuts in your scripts and the Parser can figure things out better.. I am wondering if Casting things will help the parser out in some cases will test that theory tomorrow and report on it. If you want to write text as an argument use the "StringBuilder" class instead of assigning a Variable to something.

Once you get into thinking of how something might be treated at a compiler level you can start to figure out how to make the Diagrams. To be honest this is not as user friendly as I would prefer. There is much room for improvement but hopefully with help of the author and the community we can get there.

 

can you write a demo script and show the output script ?

 

Code (CSharp):

1. //MD5Hash:05f1f60064ebd9fc2a5014fd209cb799;
2. using UnityEngine;
3. using System;
4. using System.Text;
5.  
6.  
7. public class Switch : UnityEngine.MonoBehaviour
8. {
9.  
10.  
11.     void Start()
12.     {
13.         int localVarible = 0;
14.  
15.         localVarible = 867;
16.         switch (localVarible)
17.         {
18.             case 530:
19.                 UnityEngine.Debug.Log(new System.Text.StringBuilder("Call 8675309!"));
20.                 break;
21.             case 9:
22.                 UnityEngine.Debug.Log(new System.Text.StringBuilder("Call 8675309!"));
23.                 break;
24.             default:
25.                 UnityEngine.Debug.Log(new System.Text.StringBuilder("Dont bother calling!"));
26.                 break;
27.         }
28.     }
29.     void Update()
30.     {
31.     }
32. }
33.  

Some things to note. Neither the parser or the canvas will support a non integer variable for a Switch Argument and this is not good. It should be able to support String and Regular Expressions as well, the moment I change the the variable to a string I get a warning that this type cannot be Pinned there. That or I do not know what is necessary to accomplish using a string there.

You can also see the verbosity of the output!

 

Minor, but I love that the output script uses Allman vs OTBS style:

Code (CSharp):

1. void Start()
2. {
3.      ...
4. }

versus

Code (CSharp):

1. void Start(){
2.      ...
3. }

Lol, not even joking!

-Steven

 

Is there just the one Switch statement available? In Flowcanvas there are several, you select which based on the input type you require.

Just a guess, with the colour of the Switch "value" being cyan...

 

Yuck, that's just extra wasted lines

 

^Dislike!!!

 

yep tested for that, but there is only 1 switch statement available for the FlowCanvas, will not take anything other than int. In the screen below, if I go and set that back to type int then the error goes away. I have also gotten the Cyan Color to change appearance too, so there is no rhyme or reason to it I can fathom.




WOAH!!! ITS A BUG!!! If I change the Variable Type to Quaternion and Then to String, it WORKS and COMPILES!! Sending this over to the forum to report as a bug!

Edit: If you just switch the variable type to String two times in a row it fixes it! But you have to set the type to INT to be able to make the "Link" happen or the the Link does not happen, Zelda would be devastated!

 

SirAstral, you sound like you're sending Stridemann a lot of vital 'improvement insights'. I can't thank you enough for the time and effort you've put in. I'm going to pick up a copy of Nottorus today. I hope my $250 hitting the register encourages Stridemann to quickly fix the final show-stoppers that will block mass sales of his amazing product. Mass sales of show-stopper software gives you customers beating a path to your door with pitchforks and torches.

Stridemann will have to endure your MUCH NEEDED sandblasting of Nottorus' rough edges. I hope he knows how much YOUR $250, time, effort, and feedback mean to HIS success. It's easy to get angry at the inspector that's making it possible for you to sell your house for a load of cash. I'll go now and sandblast the Unity checkout system that doesn't seem to want to serve 'my kind' anymore. Thanks again, SirAstral, for all of your time and effort and $250. It means a LOT to Stridemann too, whether he FEELS it or not, as you sandblast his newborn baby.

 

That sounds awesome, I kinda feel all alone out in the wilderness here, but that is the price of early adoption! Now that I have a buddy mudding through the trenches as well things should only get better, and of course the Authors bottom line!

I will try to make some commitments to building more documentation to help unburden the Author, at this point I would rather contribute some free time to the asset that way Stridemann nu nu nu can focus on code improvement. I might sound a little greedy but yea... I am greedy!

 

My copy of Nottorus is downloading as we speak... Slammed for time so, won't be able to sandblast Nottorus for weeks but, you have to encourage the programmer with $$$.

 

...sandblast

 

I prefer the term microsploding! Cause right now I have had to restart unity and the tool a few times during testing.

 

Haha oh you two and your esoteric terms!

 

The more powerful the tool, the more likely you are to lose a finger... and to me, Nottorus looks like a turbine powered Mad Max dune buggy... no windshield or roll cage yet... All of us watching as SirAstral, in his spiky leather battle gear fights the steering wheel... All of us yelling from this Thunder Dome thread, "GO SirAstral, GO! You show that parser who's the boss! Don't let that parser treat you like that!"

I bet my colorful euphemisms play hell with Stridemann and his Google translate. I hope he knows I wish him the best and wouldn't drop $250 just to watch SirAstral roar across the digital dunes trying to make the jump to light speed.

 

ha ha...

On a Positive Note, I did want to bring up something else that I do like about the asset. When you change the name of a variable all the rest are taken care of for ya, no searching and hunting to find them all over the canvas.

I would say the single biggest hump to get over with the Norrorus asset would be preconceptions about coding.

The first one I had to get pass was how in the heck do I build an array of strings here? Once the author posted how to do it, I all made sense. With this asset you must first create the Object you want... in this case an Array, yes it will set it to null, but you then add Nodes that will modify that array to do what you need. I was just expecting to pop down a node array and that provide me the interface to shove data in on the spot and this is not the case. Each object in programming has its own canvas Node, you just need to string them up in the right order and you will clean verbose code from it.

The one thing that is nice from all the verbosity is that you will never be mistaken on which class an object has been derived.

Also I have found that the biggest weakness of the Parser right now seems to be from code lines that use direct or embedded objects.

Example This can be parsed.

void Method() {
int numba = new int();
numba = 1;
}

But this will often fail parse or not draw correctly on the canvas if it does parse without error.

void Method() {
int numba = 1;
}

 

Yea, Stridemann must be... wft is this? I don't understand what a Thunder Dome thread bug is, explain more!

 

Hi
@SirAstral you from which part of India ?

 

This amazing image by Marek Denko of Marekdenko.net would have captured my vision of SirAstral driving Nottorus,
if he'd just eliminated the roll cage... So I Photoshopped out the sissy roll cage... (REAL programmers don't need no stinkin' roll cages!) If I'd had a photo of SirAstral leaning against a car at the same angle, it would be perfect! (Hope I didn't step on any copyright laws with my illustrative parody of an amazing image.)

 

So wait...

...can either of you (probably @SirAstral more immediately) compare this to FlowCanvas or even Blueprints? Feel free to toss in other VS's, only consider that while I love that you two are putting the parser through it's paces, how much of this is new territory for you and how much of it is similar to the aforementioned applications?

Remember this is also aimed at visual scripting for the non-coders, so it's going to be important to make those distinctions clear.

 

Dallas, TX USA.

 

I have not had any significant experience with Blueprints and will eventually to play with it, but I have played around with PlayMaker, uScript, & Antares. On the surface they all seem similar, but its the guts where a lot of things change.

The largest fundamental difference is that those all have pre-coded nodes. Sure they are immediately easier to use because they only had to develop those tools in one direction. With Nottorus any class, including from DLL's I have imported from work are available for use right then. Nottorus is not something you have to create Nodes for, they are already there and are generated based on the available methods including being able to selectively cycle through all available overloads.

So with Nottorus, there is a node already available for what you want, with the rest, if it has not been created... you have to go and create it first.

Regarding the non-coders, I can honestly say, if you are not at least at an intermediate C# level, this tool will only drive you crazy. This will definitely change when the Parser is ready for prime time. Once the parser can process all of the fundamental & commonly used C# objects written the way a lot of normal coders write them, then this tool could become a code learning paradise. Because to learn all you will need to do is parse someones code and have it expanded into a diagram for easy learning. Shoot, I am already using the Parser to help teach me how to place objects on the canvas and connect them, but only with basic concepts. And if you have Nottorus recompile the script you just parsed it will change it with how Nottorus writes code. You will definitely have a much clearer understanding of C# basics at that point.

I really cannot say enough, if my gender was C# Developer I would totally date Nottorus Parser! But I am a human and I am certain the Parser would not even allow a first kiss.

 

Strings vs Switch. Reported and fixed.

You can use standart node to make a string

I will fix this in future. -> int localVarible = 867;

 

ha ok in the demo script i see number series looked like that so any way thanks for the demo

 

Ha ha... i am just a hobbyist coder that just happens to write production code for my real job and hope to make a game of my own some day. While I have plenty of confidence in my own code, I know it stinks to high heavens in front of a seasoned dev.

But yea, sign me up for some godhood, I could use a few followers... not sure they would hang around for long but it would be fun while it lasted!

 

fast really

 

String Builder is not available for me under the context of suplying a string value as a switches comparison argument.

Remember, I do not have the version where you have fixed the switch node so that it will accept a string value.