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Release incomplete now or wait a year?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by macdude2, Aug 22, 2014.

  1. macdude2

    macdude2

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    For the past two years I have been working on a new game. Last year around this time I thought I was getting close to releasing it, but that was before I realized just how little time I would have to work on it during college – virtually none – and how much work the game still needed. This summer, for the past three months, I have been working on it a ton trying to get it ready for submission before leaving to go back to college. Unfortunately, I spent the great majority of my time this summer working on updating graphics and polishing up a level editor I intended to be available within my app.

    So now I have maybe four days left to work on my app, but although it has (in my opinion) pretty good graphics, there are only four levels which only partially demonstrate a few of the mechanics I've been working on. The code for the mechanics is complete as well – literally the only thing my game is missing is levels.

    So my question is this: should I try to release a version of my game before going off to college which has only a handful of the levels I would envision for the final game or should I put off the release for another year, add in a bunch more levels, and optimize the gameplay?

    If I were 35 and I already had a solid job the answer would be easy – I would wait a year and finish it. However, as I am 19 and am currently in the process of 'proving my worth' to companies I might want to intern or work at the answer isn't so simple. Having an app on the App Store gives my work immediate legitimacy so in that sense having anything on the App Store would be better than nothing. However, it would pain me to read reviews (and hear from my friends) that my app has issues I already know exist. It would also be frustrating as this incomplete version of the app would only showcase maybe 20% of everything I've worked on for the past two years.

    Sorry for this long-winded post, I'm just really struggling with deciding what to do and whats actually worth my time right now. I would greatly appreciate any advice. Also, I've also attached a couple screenshots (the first ever actually) so you guys can see what I've been up to. Screen Shot 2014-08-22 at 1.25.47 PM.png Screen Shot 2014-08-22 at 1.36.09 PM.png
     
  2. melkior

    melkior

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    Assuming the GAMEPLAY of said game is complete enough or can be finished in the time listed I think the content looks nice and only 4 level isn't a big deal -- especially if you are using it as a demo that you can actually produce something -- which by the way is WAY more valuable than just having a degree alone.

    You CAN release it AND continue to work on it you realize? Maybe you don't have the motivation to do that, but its entirely possible.
     
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  3. TheSniperFan

    TheSniperFan

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    If you're going to release it early, focus on a small portion of it, finish said small portion COMPLETELY and release it as a demo.
    It's the most reasonable thing to do. Besides that, the feedback will likely result in some extra motivation to keep you going.

    You say having anything on the AppStore(s) would be better than having nothing on it. Well, that's not true.
    Since I do see where you're coming from, let me ask you this:
    If releasing a game boosts your legitimacy, how would releasing an unfinished and unpolished one affect it?

    You say it would be frustrating if your unfinished app would only showcase 20% of what you did. Do you know what would be really frustrating? If said incomplete app would leave a bad impression of you.

    So, again. I'd say take a part of it, polish it to a mirror shine, then release a quality demo.


    It might be devastating to read that, bear with me though.
    Those screenshots don't look good at all, if you ask me. It's not due to me having higher standards considering that I'm PC focused, but the art-style just not being appealing.
    • It's not simplistic, it's dull. Look, I'm no artist but a programmer. However, I know a little about this kind of stuff and this falls under "Color Theory". It's just not nice to look at. Fortunately that's something that you can fix without starting all over again and with no impact on performance. This article should give you a rough idea. Check out Robert Briscoe's work on Mirror's Edge. You went with dark gray and dark colors or ones with low saturation. He took white plus a single bright color. The results look gorgeous.
    • As everyone knows by now: Unity's default shaders suck aaaaaarse. Now, I don't know how much this will affect performance since you're a mobile developer, but you should definitively give it a try. Replace Unity's default shaders with their Lux counterparts. They just looks so much better and with your simple materials, shouldn't require much tweaking.
    • Upper screenshot, upper right, the part where the wall and the ceiling meet. The way the textures clip just doesn't look good.
    • Don't use the same tetxture for walls, floor and ceiling. It comes off as cheap since variation is the spice of life. Look at how Portal handled it. Very similar texture for ceiling and floor, different albeit similarly colored texture for the walls.
    This is not meant to bash you or your game, but as constructive criticism. It's my honest opinion and if you're afraid that changing this is too much work. Well, you can minimize it.
    My recommendation would be to take those two rooms you posted already, work on them (and only them) and then post comparison screenshots over in the WiP forum. :)

    Anyway, I hope this was of some help.
     
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  4. GiusCo

    GiusCo

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    Wrap it up and ship ... nobody will give a damn but you're only 19 and as a prospective employee at this stage mostly in need of proving you can start AND FINISH something
     
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  5. MurDocINC

    MurDocINC

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    You got another 2-3years of college, keep working on it. Complete project is more impressive and it could earn you more downloads which is even more impressive for future employer.
     
  6. dietlime

    dietlime

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    Don't feel pressured to make your pet project a product if it isn't ready to be.
     
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  7. macdude2

    macdude2

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    Thanks for all your input guys – I think I'll try to get a few levels working well and then I push it out!

    @TheSniperFan – I am similarly more of a programmer than an artist, but I have definitely been trying to get into the art side of making games. Its intriguing that you say that the screenshots don't look good at all and that the colors look dull. Do you think this could be simply because the game needs to be better lit?

    I would also add more color to the level geometry themselves, but much of the mechanics rely on vibrant color – specifically each primary color. So I'm not sure how making the geometry more vibrant would fit into the logic of the game. (Perhaps I should make the geometry entirely unsaturated and increase the contrast?). You pointed out Portal as something that isn't dull, but that screenshot you sent me (imo and maybe my viewpoint is skewed) doesn't look all that appealing. Also, Limbo looks amazing and its completely black and white, how is it not dull? Finally, I'm trying to have a unique look for my app – I don't want to copy the color scheme of Portal or Mirror's Edge as beautiful as these games can be.

    As far as shaders go – its difficult on mobile. Not sure if you've looked at mobile games recently, but few use anything beyond BRDF shaders. The one I'm currently using though is not a default unity one – its actually from angry bots. I would use lux, but they, unfortunately, don't work on mobile platforms. I was considering marmoset skyshop, but many of the users were having problems with his shaders on mobile platforms. The last possibility are the UNO shaders. Haven't tried these, but they look promising. Or perhaps I should wait for Unity 5's uber shader? Thanks for your thoughts.
     
  8. dietlime

    dietlime

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    The dullness of the game is an arbitrary/subjective moot point; it does look good. If you asked for my personal opinion on it's aesthetic alone I'd say it was fine for a phone game, but that overall the corridors would look better with some bezels- but it's probably not worth the time and effort remodeling all that for some bezels.

    I don't think focusing on the cosmetics is constructive, if the game is fun it's worth sharing. Gaming is littered with comically-uggo games that achieved vast popularity. Look at Killing Floor; it just looks bad no matter how you cut it AND became huge with AI that walks in a straight line towards you, spawning in plain sight around you. Look at the "Patriarch" ugh is it dumb, but the game is fun.
     
  9. dietlime

    dietlime

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    I recommend you host a windows version on a private site where you can show it to people without putting it in the already-bloated "app store"; anybody can put something in the app store, showing that you know enough to know it's not ready for commercialization might help your cause even further when you use it as a portfolio piece.
     
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  10. dietlime

    dietlime

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    Another option would be to do a software recording of the game being played, upload it as "unlisted" to YT and show them that, though actually trying it always leaves a bigger impression.

    For the love of god show potential employers that you cloned Portal so well on a portable that you had to take it down. That's pretty cool.
     
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  11. TheSniperFan

    TheSniperFan

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    The problem is that I'm no artist. As such I have issues expressing myself when it comes to artistic things since I don't know the terminology. I'll try though.


    The first thing you should change are the textures. Don't use the same one for floor, walls and ceiling.
    That should give it more diversity.
    Besides that lighting is very powerful. You can do a lot with it. You just have to experiment. One thing that you could try on the upper screenshot would be to make those pillars emit light so that those blue rings act as lamps.


    The thing with Portal is that it was made by a small team within Valve many years ago. They had to cut corners everywhere. If you don't find Portal appealing, look at Portal 2.

    Also Limbo doesn't look amazing because it's in grey scale, but because it has a great art-style. It's atmospheric. The music, the visuals and basically everything else in this game are tailored towards creating this oppressive atmosphere.


    I think it would help if you could tell us more about this game and how colors are used (in terms of gameplay). Maybe we can work something out you haven't thought about yet.

    Do you have Unity Pro btw?

    I'd say wait for Unity 5 then. There are surely other things to do in meantime.



    It's a question of ambition.
    "fine for a phone game" is just like saying "basically okay for a Wii game" when comparing to PS3/360/PC. It tells you nothing.

    If someone posts screenshots that I don't find appealing at all, I'm not gonna lie. I'm going to tell the developer that and also try to pin down what exactly it is that I don't like.
    Whether the developer takes it to heart or not, is not my problem. If "fine for a phone game" is enough for you, then a round of applause for Cpt. Ambitious please. If you have the time, I don't know why you shouldn't strive for excellence. When I see a problem with my work, I don't just shrug my shoulders and think "Meh, it's good enough". Instead I fix it.
     
  12. StarManta

    StarManta

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    Isn't the entire point of this thread that the OP doesn't have the time?
     
  13. TheSniperFan

    TheSniperFan

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    Not the complete game that is. Which is why I recommended making a great demo instead of a mediocre game.
     
  14. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    I have to echo what others have said - if it's not ready, don't ship. If only a part is ready, wrap that part up and present it as a demo, or take that part and see if it could be a small, self-contained game in the first place.

    Finish matters, it's been my fundamental problem since I started with game development; on all three of the games I've released so far (not including another one that I decided to give up on since the concept was fundamentally flawed), I keep getting comments like, "You've got some cool ideas, but they're really poorly done." If you ship early, yes you'll prove you can 'complete' something, and chances are good as a 'first project' it may not be judged too harshly, but why take that chance? It's better to put out something that's short but sweet, as opposed to long and crappy. Don't do an Asvarduil!

    As for your screenshots, I'm not much of an artist myself, but you do have a few problems:
    1. Differentiation - As said before, difference is the spice of life. You're using the exact same texture for the walls, ceilings, and floor. Even taking one of the 'blocks' you're using, and lightening it as either a floor/ceiling or wall block would add a little contrast to make the scenes more visually interesting.
    2. Contrast - This is a big problem in your screenshots, and one I struggle with (thus, how I can recognize it.) Take your first screenshot of the 'train station'. The blue neon on the train is painful to look at, because it blends in so well with the somber grays, that trying to pick the blue out from everything else is visually strenuous (and, I mean that, it actually hurts to try to focus on the blue.) Instead of a sort of mid-range blue (I'm assuming an RGB of something like 0, 0, 128), try something brighter (I prefer 60, 100, 160 for blues, myself, but the tuning is entirely up to you!) Combined with slight differences between the walls and ceiling, and possibly some other doodads thrown in to make the scene feel more lived-in (or, previously lived-in and abandoned, because it looks like you're going for an effect similar to Portal), this will make the scene more effective and visually pleasing.
    Hope that helps.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
  15. dietlime

    dietlime

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    Mainly, criticism of his art design isn't productive because what people want to see is programming skill. No offense, but competent artists are a dime a dozen compared to competent coders. I've had to force myself to use some placeholders while I learn this API and get some framework established, because making assets (or in my case due to lack of objective artistic skill "an asset all day", lol) would be a breeze.

    OP specifically mentioned it was portfolio work.

    And that's fine; but your posts aren't constructive because of context; the OP isn't attempting to finish and ship a game with profit as a goal but rather to show his skills in general. If art design isn't the high point of a game made by one person, that probably isn't going to surprise anyone.

    If the game uses a lot of custom scripting, maybe it has a camera that interpolates and handles wall clipping particularly well, that's the kind of thing potential employers see. They are not looking at the game itself, but it's individual mechanics.

    There is context.

    May I see your one-man-team game portfolio, TheSniperFan?
     
  16. jc_lvngstn

    jc_lvngstn

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    Here's my $0.02. Before, shipping before it was "ready" may have been ok. But I've been seeing a -lot- of people getting burned by half complete, never finished, or waaaaay too early access games. I've been burned myself, and it is really frustrating. You see something cool...contribute...and what do you know, a year or so down the road is it floundering.

    I'm not saying you are in the same situation, or that your game won't be finished. I just think people are MUCH less tolerant about incomplete games now, than they were a few years ago.
     
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  17. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    For reference, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. Need I say more? If that game were released now in the state it was released in in 2005, there would be a huge crapstorm.
     
  18. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    I see lots of resumes. The ones with links to 'partially done SH@!T!' are kind of interesting. The ones with 'Check out my finished, released products, ON YOUR IPHONE!' are already professionals - they've shown one of the most important qualities in a new hire: Gets things done.

    So, put this one in a drawer. Think fondly about what you learned. And start on a new product that you can finish. THE SMALLEST POSSIBLE PROJECT. Because, "Finishing is a feature. A really important one. Your product must have it" - Joel Spolsky.

    Gigi
     
  19. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Worse advice ever! MurDoc is right that a 'complete project is more impressive', where he strays is that you will NEVER finish the project you're working on.

    Gigi.
     
  20. macdude2

    macdude2

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    I'm curious as to why you don't think I'll finish it? You think its simply too much for someone with so many other obligations to complete? Also, would an employer really rather see something extremely small and finished rather than something complex and unfinished? How would the app store benefit from another flappy bird clone?

    Thanks so much for input everyone, really appreciate it all. I feel pretty stuck now because I really do want the game to be both artistically and gameplay wise impressive, but something that has both of these characteristics is neither going to be incomplete nor half-baked. I'm starting to realize that my vision for my game is going to take more time than I can reasonably devote to it in college...

    See Wormholes seemed like it would be a giant project and then I completed it so I thought this game wouldn't be any different but quicker and better. But then my vision for my new game scaled inversely to the time I had to create it.

    Should I just start something small and new? How could I get past feeling like I've wasted so many (maybe a thousand) hours?

    Would publishing perhaps the first 5 polished levels on the App Store not be the best bet? I feel in terms of time, the amount of things I've been working which I would be able to show off and the extent to which my work would come off as finished that this is the best option.

    I guess my last question is how would an employer perceive this (relatively complex) polished, but not quite finished app? I can't seriously imagine someone would rather see another flappy bird clone?! Thanks again for the help.
     
  21. orb

    orb

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    Very positively. Possibly even more so than someone who made Flappy Bird or a clone ;)
     
  22. makoto_snkw

    makoto_snkw

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    In my opinion you should released it to fill up your portfolio and prove your worth to the company.
    someone who already have something to show is better than someone talks aloud.
    Well, though life is not fair sometimes bootlickers get the job.
    So maybe you should polish both your PR and programming skills. ;)
     
  23. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Should Rovio consider their first 52 titles a waste of time? Deliberate practice involves 1000s of hours of trying things ALMOST beyond your ability on your journey to become "so good, they can't ignore you." And a big lesson on that journey is that "perfect is the enemy of good". In fact, I hired someone with a clone (insert Flappy-Bird, or Match-3, or Angry Bird, or Geometry Wars), over lots of folks with cool experiments that amounted to nothing more than pretty pictures and incomplete ideas.

    This weekend, I was watching a trail of ants on my driveway. Though each individual was forging their own path, some paths were clearly better.

    Gigi
     
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  24. macdude2

    macdude2

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    Really? Thats super interesting. So you didn't mind the fact that you were most likely hiring a programmer with less technical skill and creative potential? Because it seems to me that this person would be more valuable than someone who can simply get something out the door.
     
  25. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    "Learning from your mistakes is smart, learning from others is wise". As a mentor, I hope young devs benefit from my advice. Sometimes, though, even when I tell them the pan is hot, they still have to 'touch it' for themselves. Maybe, you're not ready to grok this advice, and having heard it, will be all the wiser for getting burned.

    Of the devs I've managed through the years, I've preferred the ones with good communication skills who 'get things done', than the ones who were super-duper-clever-C++-memory-haxor-shader-monsters. Joel Spolsky on Interviewing. While Joel is harsh, and not always aligned with my own experience, it's still a good read, worth your time. "Smart and gets things done"

    Gigi
     
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  26. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    If someone never gets a product shipped, what good are they? It isn't as if the less technically skilled individual cannot learn new technical skills. Better to train the developer who has proven themselves.

    Read up on the development of Duke Nukem Forever if you want an example of what happens when your team is technically skilled but unable to get their product out of the door.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2014
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