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Love Sounds

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ony, Nov 13, 2014.

  1. Ony

    Ony

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    Fantastic post, Jashan. I like how you recognize that there are positive patriarchal and matriarchal qualities that we as a society could be embracing rather than pitting one against the other. That perspective seems to be sorely missing in the current "us vs. them" wars. It's easy to forget that when all we do is fight.
    Wouldn't that be something?
     
  2. LaneFox

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    --------------
    YouTube

    https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2802167?hl=en
    --------------
    ESRB

    http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

    --------------
    The two types of content in question are grouped in terms of age restricted content which means they are accepted or denied equally.

    That is an unprofessional response. Yes, you can. Perhaps what you meant to say was: "We do not have an [extremely common] age restricted content filter feature or an age checker feature in place, so until we add that feature we are unable to approve or deny assets on anything other than our personal preference and private guidelines."

    Take responsibility, adopt proper standards.
     
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  3. superpig

    superpig

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    I don't see how the response Oni quoted is inconsistent with what you're saying; it is true that the Asset Store cannot filter out under-aged users and cannot control age restrictions for certain assets. At the moment. That isn't to say the team couldn't work to add those things at some point in the future, at which point they might adopt a different policy. I don't think interpreting 'we can't do this' as 'this is something that could never ever be done' is sensible.
     
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  4. Ony

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    Great post, and a good point. I think in theory the above quote would be true, but I the word "equally" doesn't seem to work with their actual practice. I'm pretty sure I can go on YouTube and find hard core, gruesome death scenes (beheadings, suicides, shootings, etc.) with no problem. If I search for hard core sex scenes, however, those are the things they remove when found.

    I just did a quick search in Google for "gruesome deaths on YouTube" and found a ton of results. I did a similar search for "porn on YouTube" and found the same, except the vast majority of the videos that were linked to have been removed by YouTube for violation of terms of service. In fact, YouTube's "Terms of Service" states, in the section about Account Termination:

    YouTube reserves the right to decide whether Content violates these Terms of Service for reasons other than copyright infringement, such as, but not limited to, pornography, obscenity, or excessive length. YouTube may at any time, without prior notice and in its sole discretion, remove such Content and/or terminate a user's account for submitting such material in violation of these Terms of Service.

    So if your video is too long or contains gratuitous sex, they can remove it, and your account as a whole if they want. If you post a video of someone getting murdered, that's cool I guess. The words "violence, death, murder" appear nowhere in that TOS, yet "porn" does. Yes, of course they mention "obscenity" but that's one of those things people know "when they see it," which for some reason never covers violence, just sex.

    On their "Community Guidelines" page, they explain further. The very first bullet point:

    YouTube is not for pornography or sexually explicit content. If this describes your video, even if it's a video of yourself, don't post it on YouTube.

    The third bullet point covers violence:

    It’s not okay to post violent or gory content that’s primarily intended to be shocking, sensational, or disrespectful. If posting graphic content in a news or documentary context, please be mindful to provide enough information to help people understand what is going on in the video.

    According to those bullet points, it would be ok to post a video showing gruesome deaths, as long as we do it respectfully and in a "news" context - being that news these days seems to be all about being "shocking and sensational" I'm a little confused on what would be appropriate here.

    They're very explicit about the sex. Just don't. When it comes to violence, then yeah that's fine, just don't be obvious about it. That's the message I get, at least.

    So, a video showing, say, two (or more!) people explaining how to make love to your partner(s) in a loving and respectful, and sexy(!) way, and possible positions to try, how to touch each other, etc. - That's a no go. Forbidden. -- A video about how to behead someone or shoot someone properly to take them down is just fine.

    Bizarroland.
     
  5. Ony

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    Is that a possible confirmation that if and when Unity adopts age restriction for the store they would allow the sale of sex-related assets? The reason given for not accepting them was the lack of age restriction, so if that's no longer a problem, then there should be no problem with love and sex related assets as well as violent ones. Great news! I can't wait.
     
  6. LaneFox

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    It can and should be done.

    It is odd but that is the current pattern of thinking in general. Policies also vary a lot across the planet in regards to this so that is something to consider as well, for international applications in terms of discretionary curation.

    Unity can govern their store as they please, but there are plenty of complains about the current policy/process and that makes it worth considering things like this even though the issue is much bigger than the asset store's stand on the matter.
     
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  7. superpig

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    Well, no; I'm not a member of the Asset Store team, and I'm not involved in deciding store policy. I'm just saying that on a practical level, implementing age restrictions on content is not a technical impossibility. Whether the team do that, and whether they decide to accept sexually-related content with such controls in place, is up to them (though it wouldn't make a lot of sense to implement age controls and then not accept adult content).

    I do know that there are a lot of things on the wishlist for the store, so it wouldn't surprise me if other things are a higher priority.

    (Speaking entirely personally, I think it is definitely something that should happen someday - I'm in favor of us being able to trade assets that relate to sex just as readily as we trade assets relating to violence. But I have no idea what the company line is on this sort of thing in the long run).
     
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  8. Ony

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  9. zombiegorilla

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    Just as an off-topic aside, the word literally has been expanded to include the informal version (re: figuratively) "to exaggerate for effect." So there literally is no word in the English language for "literally".
     
  10. LaneFox

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    [edit]
    I was going to drag this joke out, but I can't even.
     
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  11. Tomnnn

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    Speaking of bringing this thread back on topic, what would you or anyone realistically charge for 'love' sounds? And far off is that transaction from being creepy?
     
  12. DryTear

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    Have we finished discussing the topic? is there a conclusion here?
     
  13. zombiegorilla

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    Sex good, violence bad?
     
  14. DryTear

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    I think both are equal, its just the people's opinions on them
     
  15. Teila

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    Unity filters out sex due to the inability to implement age restrictions yet they allow assets that would give a game a 17-M rating. There are many young developers here on the forums who have access to those assets, some of the admitting openly they are only 12 or 13.

    That Sony pack is pretty explicit and contains some very disturbing and violent sounds. Why is it not rated M? Why do kids have access to it?

    I ask this only because it seems like a double standard based on Unity's own comments. I am sure those 12 and 13 year old kids play plenty of M-rated games, but shouldn't Unity be consistent? My fear with our own games is that some mother will contact us because we slipped in something that she finds disturbing to her children. Does Unity not worry about that sort of stuff? Or do they have a different rating system than games?
     
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  16. Tomnnn

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    Maybe they just don't want that kind of asset to dominate the market since sex is used to sell everything.
     
  17. Teila

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    Ha! Maybe, although I would argue that here, violence is used to sell everything and definitely dominates the market. :)
     
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  18. Tomnnn

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    haha true. And why wouldn't it? Virtual violence is a lot more exciting!

    Real life sex vs virtual. What changes? Heck, this forum is about recording that audio just to bring that experience directly into gaming -.-

    Real life violence vs virtual. What changes? Pretty much everything from the entities involved, the entities used to commit the acts, the laws of physics, etc.

    You could be using a chair to fight off an army of penguin zombies or using a water pistol to fight off anti-plants! What would an outside the box sex game be...? Most likely either not sexy whatsoever or very very funny. Sex in games is boring because it can't change much. If you wanna make a game about being intimate with a pet rock, go for it... but it's probably not going to appeal to anyone lol. I feel like even if this topic went anywhere and made Unity allow these assets on the asset store... they'd just be used for background noise or cutscenes that have barely any relation to the story.
     
  19. Teila

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    So...they would still be used. What does it matter how a developer uses the assets? He would have access to them.

    I have no use for love sounds in our particular game at the moment but I would like to have things in my game that probably would destroy a T rating, at least in the US.
     
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  20. Tomnnn

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    Pff, "love sounds" are the low hanging fruit for destroying a T rating in the US. An experienced designer would want to earn that M+ rating with imagery and game mechanics so unspeakably violent that it gets banned in more places than just Australia!

    Just feature a scene in your game where you
    cure someone by feeding them a fetus so they can ingest the stem cells, instant X rating :D It's funny because that's not even how stem cell therapy works unless you live in South Park, Colorado.
    .

    Or you could
    speak negatively about Anita Sarkeesian. Just be ready for the entire world to rain fire on your known social media pages.
     
  21. movra

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    I will raise you a Silent Hill 3 :D


    Nice sound effects by the way. Maybe time for a Food Sounds asset?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
  22. angrypenguin

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    Which direction does that causality work in, though? I personally hate the "us vs. them" er... "discussions" because they're almost always started with a lack of such perspective, and people coming in afterwards with such perspective get mauled on sight - if you're not taking a side then your views aren't wanted. Or, to put it another way, people who have that perspective don't get involved in "us vs. them" style discussions because they're busy having constructive conversations of different forms covering the same matter instead.

    The very fact that it's an adversarial "discussion" - "us versus them" - means it can't be constructive. It puts everyone on the defensive from the first sentence.
     
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  23. Ony

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    My thoughts about the whole thing exactly. There are too many people who want to take sides and not enough who appreciate a more moderate position. If I'd come in here asking for violent-based content to be removed simply because sex-based content can't be sold, that would be taking a side. I think there's room for both. No need to push one out to make room for another. That's partially what I meant by the "us vs. them war," and it was in response to Jashan's comment. It's a war, between combatants who only see the other side as an enemy. It has no thought or time for those of us caught in the crossfire. It affects people's thinking. It's doesn't have to be one or another. Why not one and the other?
     
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  24. superpig

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    Sex and violence?

    It'd never sell!
     
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  25. Ony

    Ony

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    I know, right?
     
  26. Tomnnn

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    I have no idea what you're talking about. If you add in drugs, you've got the best game ever, Super Mario!

    Did that come out of her mouth? Everyone
    in Texas
    knows babies come out of the butt... and now we're back on topic :D

    *I'm not sorry.
     
  27. Ony

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  28. virror

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    Did anyone try to get an answer about that stupid response from the Asset Store team that sex assets are not allowed because they needed age restrictions and super violent assets does not need age restrictions? Would be nice to hear an official answer to that : )
     
  29. Tomnnn

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    The answer is, "because we said so". Don't look down on your fellow man for being arbitrary, it's what makes mankind so special.
     
  30. jashan

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    I've just sent them an email asking whether they will take this obviously violent and offensive asset down and also asked about how such an asset could even become a "Staff Pick". In the video that's available in the screenshots section, it says “Blood Squirts and Drips”, “Violent Organ Removal”, “Bone Breaks and Rips”, “Stabs and Wet Hits”, “Skull Crushes and Implosions”, “Dismemberment”, “Giant Gore Explosion”.

    If that does not violate section 5.10.2 of their own Asset Store Provider Agreement, then I wonder what does ;-)
     
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  31. Teila

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    Yeah, kinda hard to justify that violent one, although I noticed the "or customers" and not sure that the majority of customers here would see that as "violent". Wonder how they decide that? Do they only pay attention when someone complains or do they have some way to measure what the Unity customers consider violent, obscene, etc.? :p
     
  32. Ricks

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    Can't wait to see the Asset Store team giving in, and a tiny, hardly visible icon appearing in the corner of the screen, called "Schmuddel-Ecke" (sorry, don't know the English word for it).
     
  33. Hikiko66

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    The asset store is not bound by the provider agreement, the provider is.
    The asset store can, but does not have to use the leeway that they have given themselves via the provider agreement to reject assets.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2014
  34. jashan

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    Yup, and they make it clear in that agreement that it's up to them to decide. Nevertheless I'm pretty sure that people that have a problem with sex would be up in arms when someone published what Ony suggested. So I find it just fair and reasonable to make the asset store team aware that currently, there's a rather significant discrepancy in some of their customers' (and publishers') perception between what they say in their agreement and what they actually practice.

    Personally, I wouldn't mind all the packages with "blood" in their name disappearing or being moved to some yet to be created "adults only" section (unless, of course, it's biology learning materials about those white blood cells that violently devour those evil bacteria ;-) ). I'd rather not have game-dev kids be confronted with what this Sony package advertises.

    I also have to say that if that's what Sony considers "Signature Sounds Of Playstation", I might rather not put my time and money into developing for PlayStation 4 (Project Morpheus looks quite awesome, so I might not follow through with this ... but in general, whether or not a company follows basic ethical principles does influence my decisions ;-) ).
     
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  35. movra

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    In order to use Unity Asset Store you must be 18 years of age or older. On using the service you warrant that you have legal capacity to enter into the agreement.
    -- http://unity3d.com/legal/as_terms


    The legal age in the United States to obtain your own credit card is 18 years.
    -- http://www.creditnet.com/Library/Credit_Card_FAQ/Im_under_18_Can_I_get_a_credit_card.ccfaq_003.php


    Children are not eligible to use our service and we ask that minors (persons under the age of 18) do not submit any personal information to us or use the PayPal Services.
    -- https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/privacy-full


    Not sure what's the problem when the asset store and payment services are already 18+. Might as well age gate the whole store and get rid of content restrictions. Could be combined with per-asset age ratings to make it easier to target a specific rating category.

    Actually I know what's the problem, it's more a "what we want to see in the store" versus a "what we could legally have in the store".
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2014
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  36. Ony

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    And what they want to see in the store is entirely their business. If they don't want sex related assets in the store because it's yucky and gross then I would like for them to say so. The official response I received said that the reason was purely because of age restrictions, not because icky sex. Since there's already a clause in their terms that one must be 18 to use the store then I think perhaps the representative who wrote to me was mistaken.
     
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  37. Tomnnn

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    Just goes to show that nobody reads the EULA ;)

    They can save face by digging the hole deeper with an arbitration clause in which they appoint the guy who made that mistaken claim to you as the arbiter, which would retroactively make his claim correct.

    Legal stuff!
     
  38. angrypenguin

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    You don't have to be logged in to view the store or its contents. So implementation of age checks isn't necessarily linked to what's in the terms, unless they force you to accept the terms before showing you anything. Since that would immediately block search engines...
     
  39. N1warhead

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    Wouldn't it be as simple as a filter? Then if they choose to *view* adult material, then just make a wavier to accept just to cover their ass (Unity) from underage viewing, as long as they have that waiver to accept then they should be covered.

    At least I would assume so.
     
  40. angrypenguin

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    Wouldn't what be as simple as a filter where?
     
  41. Ony

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    I'm pretty sure this really has nothing to do with age checking, and everything to do with our US culture of being embarrassed by sex.

    Mentioning age checks was probably just a convenient way for the Unity representative to say that no, they don't want to have sex related content in the store, but violent content is welcomed. If they don't want sex-focused assets in the store then that's their decision, of course.

    I just would have preferred an honest answer instead of one that is easily refuted by what's already in their TOS, which is that one needs to be 18+ in order to use the store in the first place. If that's the case then the answer I received makes no sense, and there is no reason why someone wouldn't be able to sell an asset about love and sex, just as people can sell assets about brutally murdering everyone in sight.
     
  42. superpig

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    Unity's more a Danish company than it is an American company, so I doubt that's it. (At least not directly; plenty of Asset Store customers are American, I suppose).
     
  43. Ony

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    Where is the Asset Store team mainly located?
     
  44. movra

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    Some nuance:

    - It's not only about age. Location is also a factor. What's 18+ in one country can be completely illegal in another country even for adults. I understand that tighter restrictions can make the website more internationally accessible and more profitable.

    - I remember reading a question if one could make a game with adult content, Unity seemed pretty cool about it. Not prudish at all. Unfortunately I can't find that post anymore. Maybe the staff response to the Love Sounds question is just an isolated case. Or maybe Unity doesn't care what kind of product you make as long as any icky content doesn't show up on their site for the mentioned cultural and socioeconomic reasons.
     
  45. jashan

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    Isn't “Blood Squirts and Drips”, “Violent Organ Removal”, “Bone Breaks and Rips”, “Stabs and Wet Hits”, “Skull Crushes and Implosions”, “Dismemberment”, “Giant Gore Explosion” the very definition of "icky"? ;-)
     
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  46. movra

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    Good point. That's what surprised me the other day. Some people define that as "normal" without trolling.

    Jona Adams2 days ago
    I always find it fascinating that there are games where people are being dismembered, blood spraying, or just general death and no one bats an eye lash at it. [...]

    talon Jona Adams2 days ago
    You find it fascinating that no one bats a lash at normal things [...]

    Alzakiel Jona Adams2 days ago
    I think he mean normal like .... 99% of violent video games have Blood and Guts lol [...]
     
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  47. Tomnnn

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    The Asset Store is probably catered towards Americans because we're more likely to buy stuff, no matter what it is. That's like 60% of the culture. We've even got black friday off so we can go murder each other in shopping malls to get 80% off everything.
     
  48. Dabeh

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    Sigh, things like this have no place in a business. It sounds like someones pushing their own morals when it comes to this stuff which IMO...frankly doesn't have a place in a business, when does it become not okay or okay?(I'm not going to bring up "copycat assets" being denied even though I kinda just did :p)

    I don't really care about sex sounds or nudity. I probably won't be using them but that doesn't mean I'm going to tell others not to use them. Whenever I browse an artists portfolio there's a very strong likelihood that I'm going to see nudity, at this point I think it's almost a necessary step for an artist since almost all of the best ones I've seen have it in one way or another.

    Bluntly, I think it's kind of immature and unprofessional for a business to deny an asset that they don't like on an individualistic moral level when it's not obscene.
     
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  49. hippocoder

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    We don't know the reasons for denial, to be fair.
     
  50. Ony

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    I'll go out on a limb and guess... sex?

    Joking aside, credit card companies charge more if you deal with sex-related products, PayPal point blank won't let you sell sex-related products, and I'm sure there are other reasons. If Unity doesn't want to sell sex-related assets because of these restrictions, that's fine. Again my bafflement comes from the fact that it's ok to sell gruesome murder-based products with no trouble at all. It's the sex everyone is afraid of.