Is there a future for iPhone dev on the PC?

Discussion in 'iOS Development' started by jbuck, Jan 8, 2010.

  1. jbuck

    jbuck

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    Is there a future for iPhone development on the PC?

    We're starting to see some iPhone SDK's out for Windows and I'm wondering if Unity and/or Apple has any intention of taking this further.

    I realize there are both technical and business reasons for forcing iPhone dev to the Mac. I'm interested in opinions. Please... my intention is not to start another Mac vs. PC event. :)

    Any additional comments on Android?
  2. ader

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    No.Unity iPhone won't ever exist on windows imho.

    Even if it were possible, why would anyone bother when you can just buy a Mac?
    If you can't afford a Mac then you won't have the skill to create anything worthwhile anyway. imho. Or rather, if you truly do have the skill - but no money, then you should have no problem getting a business loan to get a Mac set-up. Again imho.
  3. Marv

    Marv

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    Maybe that's true for somebody that wants to specifically develop for iPhone, and whatever platform Apple is going to announce soon.

    It unnecessarily restricts developers that would like to expand to iPhone, if they usually only develope for PC, Android etc.

    Forcing people to use one specific platform is never a good idea in my opinion. But of course it depends on how much it takes to make it happen on both platforms.
  4. jbuck

    jbuck

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    Can't say I get this. Are you saying that finances have something to do with talent?

    What about the scores of thousands of game developers who have been creating AAA games for years? They have their money invested in PC infrastructure. The number of high end PC game developers outweighs the Mac developers 10:1. Something Unity caught onto and I thank them for it daily.

    IMO I'd love to see some of these PC people (myself included) developing for the iPhone without having to buy new hardware and software. The majority of iPhone devs are smalltime indy and I know more than a few talented AAA game people who won't dev for the iPhone just because you need a Mac. I don't see how this is a good long term strategy for Apple especially with Android on the scene.
  5. elsanctis

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    I agree with jbuck. It's always a bad business strategy limiting the platforms available for development. But as long as Apple is setting the rules for that game, I guess we have no choice but to play along or sit by and watch what happens...
  6. Lokken

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    Why bother buying a mac if you already own powerful development machines that work for everything except macs?

    Your post really is bordering on ridiculous. If you can't afford to buy a mac you wont have the skill, otherwise get a loan?

    There is a reason Unity is now available on PC. Why did Unity decide to do that if all of the current PC developers simply didn't have the talent to buy a mac and make games?
  7. bpatters

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    You can't develop for windows or xbox without a windows machine so why should you be able to develop for a MAC or iPhone without a MAC?
  8. jbuck

    jbuck

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    This is a good point, of course, and there are many examples of this as part of Microsoft's business strategy as well.

    However, MS isn't missing out on much by limiting AAA dev to 360 to PCs -- the developers who makes those games have nothing but PCs and the dev kit is prohibitively expensive anyway. Same for Sony. AAA dev isn't broken in this way... my concern is for Indy dev.

    And... we can make SOME games for 360 in Mac OS... same for the Wii (as us Unity users know). And couldn't you just install Windows and Vis Studio on your Mac and take it from there?
  9. kenlem

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    So Apple is somehow missing out on great games because they don't have Windows tools? That sounds like a leap.

    You may need Apple to support Windows dev tools but Apple doesn't need Windows developers.
  10. jbuck

    jbuck

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    No, I'm talking about people. I don't care much about what tools I use but as an artist but I do have considerable investment in PC hardware and software and wouldn't mind making a game for the iPhone.

    I don't know what you mean by this but if I take you literally I couldn't disagree more. Any platform will benefit from the talents of those who develop for other platforms, especially experienced professionals who want to try their hand at some smaller projects.

    I can't prove this, but a glace at what's come out indicates that the quality and abundance of Unity games for all platforms EXCEPT iPhone has increased because of v2.5 support for Windows. Abundance was expected, but quality is due to the fact that that vast majority of games have always been developed on the PC and that's where the majority of the talent remains.
  11. HiggyB

    HiggyB

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    Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible especially as we look forward to continued expansion of our mobile support. Will we always offer ala carte mobile licenses (Unity iPhone, Unity <insert other mobile platform>, etc.), or perhaps we instead offer a single Unity Mobile that covers a variety of them on Mac and Win? There are far too many questions and unknowns to say anything with certainty. So to anyone who boldly says "never" (I'm lookin' at you ader ;) ) I say that they're out of line and not looking at possible "big picture" changes that may come down the pipe.

    Possible? Yes. Can we commit either way today? No. So for now you should operate as if it won't happen but know that plans and the landscape around us are always changing so absolute like "never" just shouldn't be offered.
  12. kenlem

    kenlem

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    I agree that the platform would benefit from more experienced professionals but there are already tons of experienced professionals creating apps for iPhone right this moment. It's not like there aren't any sales because there isn't anything good to buy. Forgive me if I read your post incorrectly, but it sounds like you want Windows based dev tools to make it easier for yourself to develop iPhone games not because the marketplace itself is lacking from quality products.

    Unity iPhone games are among some of the best quality and highest selling games on the store. While the majority of the game development talent may remain on the PC, there are plenty of experienced and talented people who have figured out how to make the leap and are creating great games right now.

    I understand your point about having an investment in existing Windows-based tools. That is totally understandable. I just don't understand why acquiring a mac is such serious barrier to entry. While some people may suggest that Apple is somehow evil, lazy or shortsighted for not providing Windows based iPhone development tools, it seems plausible to me that it is a non-trivial task with little long-term, strategic advantage.

    Do your art on the PC with tools you know and love and write the game on a Mac mini. I understand it's not ideal but that's the way it is right now and neither Unity nor Apple has given the slightest indication that they have any intentions of changing the situation.

    Your artwork is fantastic. If I were you, I wouldn't wait around for different development tools, I'd find the faster way to get something made.
  13. Eric5h5

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    I don't agree with that even slightly. In fact, now that you mention it, the rate of completed games doesn't seem to have gone up much or at all since 2.5...the devs who are actually putting out the finished, professional games (instead of just talking about it and showing screenshots) are, for the most part, the same devs who have been here all along. The number of completed Unity iPhone games appearing on the App Store continues to outnumber completed Unity games substantially, as a glance at the sticky in the iPhone forum shows.

    I must say I'm surprised to hear a developer actually ask for increased competition. Usually it's the other way around. ;) I doubt you'll find many iPhone developers who would be in favor of substantially increasing the ranks, as it's hard enough to get Apple to respond in a timely manner as it is. Do you really want approval times stretching out to months? It's gotten substantially better since mid-December, but I have to wonder if that's a temporary thing, as they might have worked overtime (well, even more overtime) to clear the backlog for Christmas.

    --Eric
  14. bpatters

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    That's exactly what I did last year. Bought the absolute cheapest Mac, mac mini, and did all of my first games development on it while using my PC laptop for my main computer.

    Funny thing is that 9 months later after using my first Mac in my 36 years of life that I realized why Mac users love the Mac so much. My entire household went 99% all Mac within the next 6 months (still keep 1 PC for my entertainment rooms DVR computer).

    I can't foresee myself ever buying another Windows PC, but of course I'll use whatever OS makes my computer use the most fun, enjoyable, stress free, and profitable :).

    Of course you could do what some other Art centric people are doing and partner with a developer for a game. The developer would then buy the Mac and you can stick with 3DS on the PC.
  15. kenlem

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    I just re-read the original post and see the Jbuck probably wasn't trying to start a discussion about Windows dev tools. He was just asking the status. I also see the Higgy has answered so please forgive my somewhat off topic ramblings.
  16. Eric5h5

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    In any case, you don't need any kind of major hardware/software investment. The only software you have to buy is Unity iPhone, but you'd have to buy that anyway even if it ran on Windows. A $600 Mac Mini is perfectly fine for running Unity iPhone (and you can probably find a refurb for less). Do what I do, and run it in a VNC window. That way you keep your normal dev environment exactly the way it is.

    If you want to dev on the PS3, you get a Sony dev kit. If you want to dev on Xbox, you get an Xbox dev kit. I can't see why this is even an issue, considering the relatively tiny investment in this case. I'm sorry, but I can't see how anyone claiming to be an AAA dev and not willing to take such a small step is actually serious.

    --Eric
  17. jbuck

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    Thanks for that, and the encouragement!

    And it's great to get the perspective of other developers, especially those who probably aren't working at huge game companies (forgive me if you are.)

    About the competition thing... game development is still in it's infancy and mobile development even more so. The iPhone is the first mobile device that even got me a little interested in mobile, Android even more so. I like HiggyB's carefully worded introduction of the soon to be announced "Unity Mobile" package (kidding) because it's the kind of thing that will advance both the technology and the apps for the technology.

    Any thoughts on Android? How many of the iPhone developers here would consider porting to or developing for Android?
  18. Eric5h5

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    I'd get Unity Android with no hesitation if such a thing existed and the market made sense, but right now iPhone games outsell Android games 100:1. Also the 24-hour refund thing pretty much kills the casual games market there, with 30-50% refund rates reported. So, I'll check back on that later.

    --Eric
  19. jbuck

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    Eric5h5, can you describe your dev environment for me? Are you using PC/Mac? Two Macs? If it's PC/Mac how are you file sharing?
  20. Eric5h5

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    I have an older G5 Power Mac running 10.4 (I still have apps that don't work well or at all on newer Macs), connected via firewire to the Intel mini running 10.5, controlling the mini remotely via VNC as I mentioned. I ran the mini the same way connected to a PC for a weekend a while ago, and there was no particular difference in this setup, except it was connected by ethernet rather than firewire. I'm not sure of the details on the file sharing because I didn't actually have to do anything extra to get it to work.

    --Eric
  21. jbuck

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    I really like the VNC idea. Didn't think of that.
  22. Eric5h5

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    Yep, it works well. I wasn't sure at first how I was going to handle the two machines when I got the mini, but somebody else had mentioned VNC, so I gave it a shot. The only small annoyance is that copy/paste just goes one way, but other than that it's pretty seamless. I'm using firewire 400 rather than 800, but it's still smooth enough if I set the VNC window to use 16-bit instead of 32-bit.

    --Eric
  23. Marv

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    When considering this we should not just look at how things are now but rather where the mobile market is going. It's not realistic that Apple is keeping it's strong position over time. If Android is closing in on the iPhone in terms of amount of devices, then developers will shift their focus too.

    That's usually a good thing because it will open up the market to a lot more costumers, but a the same time it would devide it. I would hate to see this go the way the PC's market went.

    So whatever keeps the barrier between platforms down should be embraced by developers, in my opinion.
  24. Dreamora

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    The android though as some major flaws which it will have to address before it could be considered a realistic development platform for commercial developers, especially one interesting for UT.
    The major problem is that android does not offer you any native code at all, so ut would have to completely rewrite the whole engine from ground to be Java.
    Who would be going to pay that, who would pay 5 - 10 times as much for Android deploy as for iphone deploy? Especially in the state the android store is and potentially always will remain?
    Google has shown interest to make it better, but they have not even reached the point where apple was at the preview of the App Store 2 years ago. At the current rate, google will never even remotely "close in"

    Realistically seen, if there was a second mobile platform to consider, it would likely be Palms WebOS.
    They are also more interested in quality than in quanity with their OS. Thats important because you are not interested to go through the same hell with smart phones as you went through with java me games on handies the old days (1 game per handy type due to the massive hardware gaps).

    thats what made the iphone the success it is developer wise. Even after 3 years, there are basically 3 generations of devices. The first year devices + iphone 3G. The itouch second gen and then the 3GS generation.
    That success and massive base is required to be able to develop a middleware and offer it at Unity iPhones prices as it attracts enough devs to be able to offer it at a lower fee and compensating it with the numbers.
    At the current userbase and potential success of Android development, you could at very least expect wii license prices for an android deployment.

    Always keep in mind, the iPhone up to a given level was a fast transition for Unity, as the iphone supports C / C++ as any other target platform of Unity too, thus only the platform related code must be written from ground up, large parts can be reused or replaced through platform optimized handlings. (the iphone required AoT in addition, but thats something that in the end will benefit UT from on other ends as the iPhone is not the only new platform requiring it)



    Its costs.
    For you as end user, would you be willing to invest thousands to tens of thousands of USD to port a game you wrote from ground up for the iphone to port it to the android if you know that you will need months, assuming you remain in the top 10, to make already that investment back in?
    Now consider how the figure must look like for a middleware developer who is meant to not just drop support after release "until it has generated an appropriate amount of win".
    At the current time and with the currently known stuff on the future, the Android will have to wait at least for the Dual Arm 9 generation by the end of the year to potentially have a chance to compensate with technical power what the OS and store end destroy from the appeal end. And that only if Apple does not do what it is expected to do, destroy all the hope of the Android platform with the 4th generation of the iphones and its iSlate


    If I would have to bet, then the bet for the second raising platform is Palm, not Android. Android is too much the way Nokia is, favoring "more devices" over "less clearly defined, workign devices" due to the fact that it is an OS and platform, not a company forming an experience as Palm and Apple
  25. ader

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    Yes. If you have talent you can get a decent job and therefore be able to afford a Mac.

    Android? Who cares. No other platform can catch-up if Apple don't want them to. The more developers switch their attention to Android the better - hopefully to leave the iPhone platform to the developers who want to release quality products. I hope the chancers and releasers of crap-ware will move on to the next gold-rush at Android - and good riddance ;)


    Their money? Jeez, a Mac isn't exactly expensive - you can buy a Mac for cheaper than the cost Unity Iphone! If they've been creating AAA titles for years they will have more than enough money to buy a Mac.

    There's no stopping someone buying a second-hand Mac, Unity iPhone and an Apple Developer subscription to try out indie game development for iPhone. If it doesn't work out for them for whatever reasons they can sell the Mac for what they paid for it, or near as damn it. I'm sorry but if buying a Mac is a large barrier for you, then this game isn't for you - you should try something else - maybe the Android.


    I also agree that Apple doesn't need iphone developers using windows - somehow I think Apple are doing pretty well without allowing this - and that way they sell more Macs!

    As an aside, the better windows developers I've met/employed in recent years have tended to be Apple fans who use Macs at home and are happy to leave the PCs in the office.

    Higgy, maybe we should never say never, who knows maybe AAPL will buy MSFT one day...

    all imho of course...
  26. jbuck

    jbuck

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    Getting some strong opinions here and it's turning into a Mac vs. PC debate which wasn't my intent. Now I see we've moved on to categorizing developers into one category or another along with their hardware and software.

    Also getting whiffs of the same close minded and exclusive mentality that's plagued triple AAA for years -- hence the lack of innovation in design and implementation in AAA.

    It's my hope that the indy community remains different in long term goals and utilizes COLLABORATIVE growth as leverage against the dominant game development forces. I don't think this is idealistic, in fact it's happening now. But I'd like to think we're keeping an open mind with an eye on both the future and learning from mistakes of the past. This is one reason why Unity has so much potential.

    I've been making games for over 11 years and have never used a Mac in the process. I will do that now should I decide to dev to iPhone but so far I've been turned off by the "cult of Apple" folks I run into when asking questions. To be fair, this thread has gone slightly better than others. :)
  27. Lokken

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    negative

    you pay a 99 dollar fee to join the creators club at XNA.com . It is pretty much identical to apples deal.

    There are free tools to help you build, debug, and publish your game for the x-box.
  28. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    That is XNA
    XNA is not XBox 360 development.

    The $99 membership only allows you to write games for the indie marketplace thats available in 8 or 9 countries. There are many many countries that don't have the indie market place and don't even have information on when / if it will become available (I live in switzerland which is one of those countries not having access to it, but its only one of many in europe)

    The real xbox development is not done with XNA but with C / C++ and the dev kit. Thats required if you want to use the real power of the XBox 360, the XNA side is capped.
    The real dev license is what you likely would also be looking for should Unity get XBox 360 support, as Unity is a C++ technology, not a XNA technology or even a .NET technology.


    The app store is such a large success because its basically available whereever iTunes is available and you can use the full hardware, not only parts of it.


    But to come back to the topic:
    Windows iPhone development will never happen officially.
    Apples success and special appeal bases on their exclusivity.
    Also, Apple hardly has enough devs or interest to have XCode working nicely and keep up with Visual Studio on OSX already.
    There is little to no chance they will ever port the whole massive purely osx behavior focused tool and instruments to Windows.
    And going a Flash CS5 Pro alike way is just a good way to misslead devs in believing they will be able to develop higher performance stuff on windows. Thats just not the case, if you can't even debug your code on the device, you can't realistically expect to get anything done professionally, at least not if you wanted to do more than a "rich web application on the iphone"
  29. Girl + Robot

    Girl + Robot

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    Going to chime in...

    It makes absolutely NO sense for Apple to EVER allow iPhone development to be done on anything other then a Mac. Mac sales have had a healthy shot in the arm from all the new iPhone developers, some buying Macbooks, Mac Mini, iMac, or even Mac Pro. I personally know 4 people who went out and got MacBook Pros for developing for the iPhone. Funny enough all 4 over the course of a year have become full switchers, though 2 of them now use VMWare Fusion and Bootcamp when needed.

    There is nothing stopping you from having part of your pipeline on Windows, though how you approach it can make a massive difference to how difficult you make it on yourself. For example, I actually run Windows 7 under VMWare Fusion so I can use Visual Studio 8.0 for my C# work, as it has a really nice intellisense feature set. Sure I could use Mono Develop, or just use Unitron, but it made sense for me to use it. The upshot of this setup is that I am developing on my Macbook Pro, and with a Crtl-Right Arrow, I am on my Windows 7 desktop, and Crtl-Left Arrow I am back to Unity iPhone, nice and seamless.

    My husband works for a AAA developer ( one of the biggest ) and they use both Windows and OS X to do their development. I showed my husband this post and he was perplexed about this AAA closed mindedness you were referring to. You generally develop for the target platform, as required, not much to be closed minded about in that regard. For example if you were only going to develop for Windows it would make little sense to develop on OS X as you are just complicating matters.

    I also don't understand your reasoning about not wanting to do iPhone development cause of the supposed "Cult of Mac" people. If your desire to do iPhone development is so easily dissuaded by the comments of other people perhaps your not that serious about it in the first place.

    As for the "Cult of Mac", people tend to be passionate about things they like. I personally enjoy the fit and finish, and over all quality of Apple products. My husband used to build us custom Windows PCs, but once OS X came out we both switched, he being a long time unix user, and for me it was a new experience. We both disliked the non unix version of the Mac OS for the most part, and the price way back then wasn't even competitive. These days price is MUCH closer, you are going to pay similar prices if you buy a quality product from Dell or HP or some other major manufacturer. If due to my enjoyment and continued support of Apple I am part of the supposed "Cult of Mac", then fine, though I do find it somewhat offensive to have a closed minded label applied due to ones choices.

    As for the Android, I REALLY don't see what anyone is getting all exited about. The platform feels terrible, and having talked to the developer of Trism on how BAD the experience of developing and releasing for Android was. What was worse was how badly the application did, a bit over $5000 in 2 months. Only knowing one other Android developer, and his utter contempt for the platform makes me not even want to bother.

    I don't see Android as a platform coming close to the #s that Apple has, let alone RIM and even Windows Mobile. At last count, there are over 50 million Apple devices in circulation, that is a huge market. One large down side to the Android platform is that it is fractured, both from a version disparity, as well differing hardware platforms. Targeting your audience is much harder as compared to Apple's offering. With Apple's platform you have a common denominator, you know the base hardware, and unless you REALLY need to make use of the Compass, or have painted yourself into a corner in requiring only the newest models for performance reasons, you have a clear target to develop for.

    The ONLY way I would even THINK about doing Android development was if it was free to do, and was a single button push from within my Unity iPhone Advance editor ;)

    Basically it currently is not going to happen... The market isn't there... The performance isn't there... 24 hour return rates, with a high rate of returns... Fractured OS versions and Hardware disparities... Crappy OS support for Android development issues from Google ( surprised by this ) Very few users, and most of them are Linux/Google fanboys, who coincidentally don't seem to like spending money. ( I am a Linux / OS X FanGirl for what it is worth )

    Of the 3 people I know with Droid phones, only one of them has purchased ANYTHING on the phone so far. 1 of these owners is trying to get out of her contract and get an iPhone.
  30. jbuck

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    shycat.... The hackles that have been raised by asking the question about iPhone dev on the PC... this is what I mean by "cult of mac". Instead of taking a second to think about what my standpoint is or answer my questions, people tend to go right for the jugular. I'd say you definitely fall into that category. Thank you, however, for sharing your opinion.

    I don't know anyone working on AAA titles working on a Mac. Obviously this has a lot to do with MS and DirectX (unfortunately), also Visual Studio being the standard for C/C++ Dev (again, unfortunately). But... I don't know everyone, that would be silly. I'm also not that familiar with PS3 or Wii dev.

    For me it has to do with art. Being an artist and not much of a programmer the Mac has never been an option. This is changing and I'm glad to see it because Autodesk and MS are having to stand up and take notice which hopefully could lead to some actual INNOVATION on their parts.

    IMO Apple's choice of products and how they're developed for is a shortsighted strategy where Google has a good long term strategy even if it seems a bit of a mess at the moment. I stand by my comment that game development as a whole is in its infancy and we'd be foolish to fully jump on any platform bandwagon without keeping an open mind and an eye on the future. This is why I'm asking questions.

    IMO the future of game development is going to have more to do with people than platform and dev environment. Anyone who doesn't see this is being shortsighted themselves.
  31. Jessy

    Jessy

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    Do you know how goofy that sounds? :?: :?: :?:
  32. jbuck

    jbuck

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    Not really. What do you mean?
  33. ader

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    Most designers/artists (in my experience over the past 15 years) prefer Macs - usually because they don't force a user to become technical. Programmers are by far more likely to be PC users than Mac users.

    I've worked in media houses where designer/artist cv's wouldn't even be considered for a role unless they had significant Mac experience. There is a prevalent view in some sectors that PCs tend to be favoured by people with less aesthetics. However, the best young designer I've met in the past two years has zero Mac experience so I wouldn't say I fall into that category myself.

    Anyhow, to clarify one point I made that you seem to have taken offense to, I think the best developers tend to be prepared to use the best tools/platform for the job at hand.

    Personally I use a Mac at home. In the office I use a Mac most of the time - but sometimes using a PC makes sense. Going back in time, I used to prefer Flash on a Mac and Director on PC. And at one time I preferred SCO UNIX boxes for the tasks I was doing then.

    You don't seem to like the consensus that Macs are by far the best option for iPhone development and that there us no future for iPhone development primarily under Windows - though of course assets can be authored on other systems and taken to the Mac for "assembly" - which is what many do.

    I don't know why you asked the question if you're not prepared to listen to/accept the answers. It seems like it's your mind that is perhaps closed? Why not open it and try a Mac?
  34. mudloop

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    My 2 cents: I bought a macbook (the cheapeast one at the time) especially for iPhone development a few months back. I had almost no mac experience, but in the meantime I have 2 games in the app store, 2 more coming very soon, and 2 games in early development. So the switch to mac hasn't really been an obstacle.

    However, even though I now like Macs, I still would prefer making iPhone games on a pc. There are many annoyances when working on a Mac. One thing is that brackets ( [{ ) are harder to type on an azerty mac keyboard. Another one is that things like control/command/alt and pressing an arrow key behaves differently in almost every text editor. In windows, I know that control-left will bring me to the start of the previous word. You can do this in most mac programs too, but it's different keystrokes for different programs, making it very confusing, so I don't use that as much as I do when coding in windows.

    As a designer and as a home user, I have no problems with macs and would recommend them, but as a programmer I would still prefer windows over mac any day. So if it were possible to create iPhone software using my PC, I wouldn't complain. However, I don't really see a reason for Apple or UT to spend time and resources on this, and I don't really mind. It's only a slight inconvenience.
  35. Jessy

    Jessy

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    Which? I'm far from being very experienced here. However, I've never encountered an app where option-left/right didn't jump between single words.
  36. Lokken

    Lokken

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    This may be true. But you don't need all parts of the xbox hardware to be able to make games that are comparable and even exceed the ability of the iPhone. It's an ideal indie/start up tool, just like the iPhone.

    But the bottom line is you can develop games for the xbox with the same barrier to entry as you can for the iPhone (even less if you already have a PC); and produce comparable output.

    The availability is a factor, but has MS said they have completed the rollout of their marketplace? I imagine that will get better as time goes on as well.
  37. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    they have completed the rollout of THEIR marketplace. Thats the XBox Arcade Live, not the hobbiest targeted Indie Marketplace.
    As mentioned, while XBox Arcade Live is present in many countries, the Indie Marketplace is only available in a handfull of countries.

    Always keep in mind, their target is to get the best possible products onto the platform, not the most as many title of bad quality hurt your reputation much more than having too little good games.

    I understand the the hobbiest marketplace as a sieve for them and publishers to find potentially interesting projects for the real Arcade Live store, and naturally as a way to get more people create buzz about it on their pages, tweets, facebook and blogs.
    But I don't missinterpret it as a general invitation onto the platform as Apple did with their AppStore (its a good thing but a curse at the same time, as S*** is created much faster than quality and the AppStore is one of the best realworld proofs of that), thats why you are forced into XNA and all related restriction.


    If you are a capable programmer it might be an interesting platform.
    But the past has shown that it is nowhere near interesting enough. At least to me thats what Blade 3D has proofen when it was shut down, leaving a single XNA engine in the field actually, which shows how little market there is for middleware
  38. mudloop

    mudloop

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    I don't have my mac with me right now so I can't check, but I think in adium (messenger) it switches between different conversations. Also, I have noticed that command up and down behave differently between programs too, but I can't give examples right now. Flash might be one of the programs that behaves differently.
  39. jbuck

    jbuck

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    For design, print and web you're absolutely right -- I'd never try to do serious 2D print work on a PC. I do, however do my 3D print work from a PC. I'm a 3D game artist. I started with SGI/Unix and switched to PC/Windows NT when it became the 3D graphics standard. Most of my primary 3D Windows applications started as Unix/Irix ports while the Mac was running FormZ and Strata Studio. I do think it's important at this stage to note that the real issue is OS, not hardware. I could run most of my apps on a new Intel Mac with Windows.

    I'm going to hazard a guess that you have little 3D game development experience.

    I'm trying to learn what the consensus is in different communities. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Unity community has made their stance quite clear. :)

    Have you read my posts? What answer am I not accepting? I already said I was going to use Mac should I decide to do iPhone dev with Unity.
  40. edwood_grant

    edwood_grant

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    Errr... this is kind of an angry rant... sorry :(

    /begin angry rant

    I am sorry to say that Ader's comments are biased, offensive and hurtful. And that is what started the whole bashing Windows (and by collateral damage, Linux) developers for IPhone development in this thread.

    ┬┐So if I cannot buy a MAC I am a stupid developer? If it happens that I can't get a job because of the global economic crisis (and NOT because of talent) I am stupid? I know LOTS of people that can't find a job and it is NOT because of talent issues, but its just that economics are against them.

    So if I decide to develop my game on Open source/free tools like, say the WORLD OF GOO developers using SDL, TinyXML, and ODE... they are completely untalented? Heck, if I win the lotto next week, I will suddenly be the brightest talented developer ever?

    I guess LudumDare and TIGsource, the people that use Pygame or Panda3D (Open source Disney project), and even the Blender Foundation (and their projects like Big Buck Bunny or Durian) have to be the most untalented people ever to find... heck even the Unity Staff have to be untalented when they used Mono (open source) for scripting.

    So because I use Blender I am less than the one who paid 3000$ for 3DS Max or Maya?

    If IPhone can only be developed on Macs, that's fine. It is completely understandable from Apple for doing that, just as the same that XNA can only be developed in Windows. And I am not against the macs, they are really nice machines, and the PCs are not bad either, many people play games there of course.

    But it is imperative to state that talent is NOT EQUAL to your economical capability. Thats is a completely false state, and the fact that you own a Mac, a PC or a Linux/Open source system and a cheap computer does NOT make you more or less talented in ANY WAY!

    And btw if buying a Mac make you more talented, why is there so much shovelware on the IPhone app store?

    My final comment is that you should measure those words more carefully next time, since not everyone lives in a place where you can find macs (or Iphones) on bargain bins at discount price.

    /end angry rant


    Phew.... well I am sorry for that...

    Sorry to write like that :(, (specially to Ader, don't want to offend him.. I mean it), I don't want to end like a troll or something like it, but I definitely needed to get that out of my system.

    That kind of statements makes me fume since I live in a place where its is not easy, nor cheap to find a Mac (even second hand), and its even more difficult to develop videogames in general... and I have to owe many, if not all of my development skills to the availability of free of open source tools and languages, and without it I could not have the slightest chance to start game developing and get to where I am.

    ----

    Now to keep it on topic, Id like to say that it is obvious to assure that there will be no Iphone development on the PC (at least coming from Apple), since it is not a good strategy for apple... it will be more profitable to let them buy a Mac and let the love of the Mac OS spread... the same will happen with something like XNA and Microsoft.

    So if you want to develop on Iphone, you'll need a Mac and an Iphone (of course) and there is no way to get around it.

    However... I know that you could use some kind of virtualization feature on Windows (like VirtualBox)... the Iphone development and Xcode work in there, only withouth hardware accelration I believe. But that would be illegal since you need to get the Mac OS... and as far as I know you cannot even legally buy it (unless you have a Mac.. am I right?)

    I would like to afford a Mac, they are cool (In my university are some of them and are really cool... I guess I'll have to save for it anyway... and when I buy I'll have my Pc just for games :)

    Italo F. Capasso B.
    AKA "Edwood Grant"
  41. ader

    ader

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    edwood_grant ,

    First off, I don't recall doing any windows bashing, I even mentioned that I use windows sometimes and that "the best junior designer I've met in the past two years" was a windows guy (well I said he had no Mac experience, not quite the same I know - but he is a windows user).

    Secondly, I never said that buying or owning any type of product meant that you were more talented. I said, that if you have talent that you can get a decent job and then afford a Mac. I still believe this is true (but to clarify I'm talking about if you live in UK, Europe or USA).

    However, I understand that this forum is a global community and I sometimes forget this and assume we're all in Europe, UK or USA so apologies for affecting your sensibilities by not specifying that I was referring to the economies of those countries ;)

    Btw, you can just buy OSX off the shelf. And lastly, I hope your uni gets Unity iPhone and allows you to use the facilities to build the next big thing in iPhone gaming :)

    When I first got started in the creative industries 17 years ago, an educational establishment gave me free run of their facilities (outside of any courses that were being run - but I ended up teaching on half of them for a short while) and that allowed me to begin to further not only my 3D modeling/design (Lightwave on Amigas I used mainly back then and it's still a favourite app to me) but also my film TV production skills (on Macs). I'm grateful to this day for the leap up that it gave me and hope others get the same break I did.

    Best of luck to all who participated on this thread.
  42. xtplpune

    xtplpune

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    hi to all....
    am using MAC OS.
    how can i put comments in mono develop editor ?