iPhone OS4 today

No its not

C# in Mono is an implementation of an ECMA open standard. Not more and not less.

Claiming its a spawn of microsoft is the same as claiming that the iphone is a spawn of Nokia just because Nokia brought mobiles to the broad audience aka bullocks and I assume you know that too.

Apple also should not have too much grudge against MS, after all they can do what they do only because there is someone larger and in this case actually because apple wouldn't even be around anymore without microsoft saving their stupid ass a decade ago when they nearly crashed into bancrupty.

 

Anyway, I am just trying to warn you that now is not really a good time for optimism. If you have payroll, bills to pay, etc, you might really want to start considering alternatives. I would suggest c++ because it will give you the same if not better cross platform capabilities as unity. Check out some of the libraries I mentioned. There are frameworks that combine these libraries for you already and so will save you some work. None are as easy as unity. However, look at the game torchlight for example. By using ogre they were able to first build an awesome level editor that they actually included in the game. You would never be allowed to include unity in a game. These level editors are so well crafted for the particular game that they gain back much of the time lost using c++ by using these custom designed tools. So you can still be very competitive in terms of schedule with a c++ product. And because they used c++ they could easily port the game over to the iPhone/iPad if they wished. None of this controversy affects them in the slightest.

Anyway, good night and good luck to you all.

 

This is an interesting discussion. Personally,
I really like C#, and I view it as an improvement over
C++. I was really looking forward to learning it,
and not having to toil over memory management.

I read over this wikipedia entry on Mono before
buying Unity iPhone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_(software)

The most interesting section to me was on:
"Free Software Foundation's warnings"

The following portion concerned me the most,
but I went ahead and purchased Unity iPhone,
because the benefits appeared to outweigh the risks
at the time ...

"On July 6, 2009, Microsoft announced that it was placing their ECMA 334 and ECMA 335 specifications under their Community Promise pledging that they would not assert their patents against anyone implementing, distributing, or using alternative implementations of .NET. However, their position regarding the non-ECMA components like ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and Windows Forms (which are the bone of contention) remains unclarified.
Subsequently, the Free Software Foundation reiterated its warnings, claiming that the extension of Microsoft Community Promise to the C# and the CLI ECMA specifications would not prevent Microsoft from harming open source implementations of C#, because many specific Windows libraries included with .NET or Mono were not covered by this promise."

 

From what I've read it's not so black and white, so dismissing Sfernald's contribution to the wild conjecture of of this thread is not reasonable.

A lot of the Open Source community are actively campaigning against Mono because (a) MS has an active stake in it via Novell and (b) MS will not produce a waiver (or whatever the legal term is) indemnifying third party users of C# against possible patent infringement action. Merely a "community commitment" or something cuddly like that.

Apple may or may not have a problem with MS via MonoTouch having a lot of influence over a runtime that could make significant inroads on their platforms, but it's certainly not an issue they would completely ignore.

 

(A) I'm glad you guys stopped arguing with each other personally, that mess a few pages back just wasn't necessary. We're all in this together, let's stand by each other, not against each other.

(B) There are no updates to share today.

 

Thanks Higgy...I just skim the posts now looking for yours. Checkin the blog too.

 

The problem with all these theory is the original statements about .NET when it was developed and released: That MS wants it to be crossplatform but that they won't do it for the other platforms.

Since then things only have changed to the better actually so I have no reason to worry on that end.
If MS wanted to shut it down they would have prevetend moonlight from happening.

 

Posting partially so that I finally get email updates, since the random user-on-user battles seem to have died down.

And mostly, Thanks Tom for providing daily updates, even if they consist of "Nothing new to report." It's a lot less stressful than not getting anything at all.

 

Am i became blind or apple removed 4.0 SDK agreement. I can only find 3.2 agreement which doesnt have new restrictions...
http://adcdownload.apple.com/iphone/iphone_sdk_3.2__final/iphone_sdk_agreement.pdf

Is it just me or nobody sees 4.0 Agreement.

3.3.1 Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use
or call any private APIs.
3.3.2 An Application may not itself install or launch other executable code by any means, including
without limitation through the use of a plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise.
No interpreted code may be downloaded or used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run
by Apple's Documented APIs and built-in interpreter(s).

*************

 

That is curious, I couldn't find it either. Under revision perhaps? I'm not getting my hopes up because it could disappear for a number of reasons, but I take it as a sign that something could be happening behind the scenes.

 

Neither I am getting my hopes up, if they really removed they can add again. But Adobe said they give up maybe just little maybe apple's only desire was hearing that

 

Hi, folks, our games' update was approved this day early.

I think if you folks have games to update and worry about delay after Unity can pass TOS from the time OS 4 released, you should update it quickly!

Now they still approve them, this is my game (on Toucharcade.com Forum thread):

http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=53429

 

You really like plugging your own game, don't you?

 

Hope this can encourge people using Unity not to be upset.

 

You are not blind - I signed the new agreement directly after the keynote just a few minutes after it came out, this was several hours before the whole mess on the forums started. As usual I copy/pasted it to a txt file and there was NEVER any word of OS 4.0 in this agreement - I've said that several times but somehow no one seems to understand that this is not about beta at all.

 

There's nothing wrong with that.

 

You HAVE to do that, its the law.

 

I signed up yesterday and can confirm I didn't see it on any of the agreements. Trust me I was looking.

 

A signature is a little different. But I'm not here to argue or blame him, I just noticed that every time I clicked on a link to a game in this thread, it turned out to be the same game

 

OMG sorry now I see it. It's gone.

 

I know you are not arguing or blaming me...

Thank you for clicking every URL of our game.

 

Seems the TOS was changed now?

I can't see it when I click it. (Access Desied, I think it caused of that I am NOT ADC member.)

 

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

 

meh.

 

Please keep unity iphone as separated product... and give the android solution a completely different name ;-)

 

OMG This is definetly news but i couldnt understand or dont want to understand is it good or bad...
But certain things :
1- Apple will never let flash on iphone
2- The letters from Steve Jobs to taoeffect about 3rd party engines are definitely real. (There was at least two or three same sentences)
2 a) does it means unity adventure ended?
2 b) OMG I am going to cry...

 

I was just about to post a link to that statement as I think it is very important in this whole problem.

If the problem is cross-platform third party layers causing platform specific features to be unsupported for large sections of their development community, then would it be sufficient for Unity to guarantee that they will support all major game related features such as the iPhone OS 4 "tent poles" (Apple's description for the major new features)?

 

I think the more important news is that 3.3.1 disappeared. - I haven't seen that with my own eyes yet, but if it's true then the whole problem should be gone.

 

His arguments about flash in the browser are old not what this is about and is something most of us agree on with apple. The real issue is his comments on crossplatform tools for app not web development. Crossplatform tools do not have to limit you to the lowest common denominator and can support touch on platforms that support it. Since these are apps and not embedded plugins users should decide which apps regardless of tech are worthy. Webkit it self is a crossplatform platform for content and application development so under Jobs own logic it should be banded for being substandard. Make no mistake this is not a purely technical decision it is about trying to discourage development for android.

Remember according to Jobs Webkit is substandard crossplatform tech.

 

My first post on this behemoth of a thread.

I was going to pull the same paragraphs as VIC20 did and post them. After reading them I have to say that Apple have a more than fair point by saying this.

We have one side of the story and I can only guess that Unity iPhone will remain a separate product, 'ring fenced' from other Unity products. This will mean an increased cost for Unity but given the customer base a necessary evil. I am guessing again that if they do this then everything else can remain the same.

 

Yes 3.3.1 is gone today I was checking it everyday. But The letter is important too, i think they contradict each other. Now i don't know what to think because if i think more, my head will explode

Two big news in same hour which contradict, something going on this is for sure...

 

Yea.. at least, he did NOT post "Thoughts on Unity MonoTouch". 8)

 

Making Unity iphone seperate product doesnt seem enough... It should access all API's , It should work like a framework...


We know from painful experience that letting a third party layer of software come between the platform and the developer ultimately results in sub-standard apps and hinders the enhancement and progress of the platform. If developers grow dependent on third party development libraries and tools, they can only take advantage of platform enhancements if and when the third party chooses to adopt the new features. We cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers.

 

How old is this Apple page? It's just written April 2010 on it.

 

This clearly means that the only solution left to middlewares is to offer a direct access to Apple APIs in their engine.

 

That sounds like a neat solution. Would it be easy for Unity to do?

 

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

 

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

Couple thoughts...

1) Like it or not it's a valid point.

2) Unity is already positioned to be the best game graphics tool-chain. We just need to be able to write the game logic in a x-code using a C based language.

3) Unity can get there faster than anyone else and this becomes a huge win for Unity.

4) I don't take this lightly Jobs does not have a reputation for reversing his opinion.

5) Hopefully this official statement allows Unity to provide us with more info.

 

I just HAVE to comment on that link...

Has Steve Jobs never heard of Windows or Linux, or is he an even bigger ass than I thought?

 

Mac World just wrote about the Steve Jobs article,
so I think the Steve Jobs article is quite fresh ...

http://www.macworld.com/article/150926/2010/04/jobs_flash.html

 

That article says nearly nothing about unity but the ugly truth is: Sentences are same with letters from Tao effect, And there was a point which says Gruber's second article is insightful.
As a conclusion we are doomed.

 

i had never signed for the new agreement...

And it's till there on the first page of the iphone dev center when i log in...

 

I am astounded at how oblivious he is about software development.

Is he aware that most of the apps on those nice pretty images of thousands of app buttons that apple likes so much to brag about were written with third party layers of software?

In other words, we want exclusivity on apps released on our devices so that users must buy our hardware to play them.

Thats great, Steve. Too bad your development tools are a joke. Serviceable at best and a hindrance to developers that want to get more complex than another Twitter client.

I can agree with him here. However, eliminating all third party layers to correct a problem like this is like using a mallet to pop a zit.

its also laughable that he tries to make Apple seem 'open'.

Doesn't he have journalist homes to raid?

Completely disingenuous and insulting. He is a tool.

L

 

I doubt Unity is going to throw in the towel on the whole iPhone market. I expect they will do the work required to adhere to the new Apple guidelines.

The question is how long will that take and will Apple allow Unity submissions until the updated, compliant version of Unity is available?

 

I could be way off the mark here as my technical understanding is limited, but although I see the point about 3rd party development environments potentially limiting / delaying what can be done (I'd like to use sound input in Unity for example, and did have to wait before Unity allowed us to access the keyboard) - but, havn't the enhancement packs demonstrated that that this is not really a problem for Unity Developers wishing to use the latest APIs?

 

Well yes but that doesn't really solve the problem. Those enhancement packs still need to be developed after apple makes the features available. So you're still looking at a lag between features and implementation by 3rd party users

 

Precisely, but I would believe that Apple don't like very much this "plugin" thing. I can already see them telling to Unity "ok, there you go with us, but you'll have to make Apple APIs integration a lot easier".

 

Maybe but maybe not. What if Unity ring fence Unity iPhone and sign up with Apple to make sure that the APIs are available within a certain time period ?

 

I think the enhancement pack has demonstrated Steve's point pretty clearing that they get in the way and slow the adoption of Apple API's. Look at the current state of the Unity Enhancement Pack. Everytime Apple release's any sort of update to the OS or SDK, it's broken. Often times, it doesn't get updated before a new release is out.

 

The upside is Apple only has to wait for the 3rd party developer to implement new features, instead of 100,000 individual users with their own implementation.

When 3rd party devs implement it, it's been tested and tested by that large user base. Almost all of Steve's anti-3rd party arguments can be flipped.

Anyone else notice that Steve referenced h264 as an "industry standard" and not an "open standard?" That's because it isn't. it's licensed by patent holding company MPEG LA, of which Apple is a member.

The license fees for h264 kick in on Jan 1, 2016. And Apple will make another killing off of everyone who drank the kool-aid.