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iPhone OS4 today

Discussion in 'iOS and tvOS' started by maxfax2009, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. aaron-parr

    aaron-parr

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    motojt, you need to chill out. Period.
     
  2. codinghero

    codinghero

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    Dude, I'm totally relaxed. Just because I can form an argument doesn't mean I'm stressing out or anything. ;)
     
  3. Yann

    Yann

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    I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together...

    Peace, please :)
     
  4. codinghero

    codinghero

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    We are all eggmen after all. 8)
     
  5. Tempest

    Tempest

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    We can all see that you're very good at forming arguments. It's your general attitude and how you go about arguing your opinion which is very aggressive and abrasive.

    The "chill out" request could be in applied to your behavior, not your stress level. You're free to speak your opinion on this forum, it's the (lack of) civility that people are having a problem with.
     
  6. Sfernald

    Sfernald

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    I agree mostly.

    I think apple's profits are known to be quite huge for a consumer electronics company.

    It will be a multimedia machine, but at heart it will be a console. It will be closer to a ps3 than the itouch is to the ds. They learned from the failure of the apple tv that it takes games to drive sales in the living room.

    I agree it will focus on casual games, but I doubt they release any hardware that won't play, say, modern warfare 2, at 1920x1080 and 60fps. This is completely reasonable
    to expect these days. the hardware shouldn't break the bank. It will also probably have 64 gigs of flash ram.

    It will be able to support iPhone/ipad games because remember I said that the ipad/iPhone/itouch will function as the controller. It will basically be like you are
    playing the game on the ipad but can look up and see it on the tv.

    This will suck about as much as using a iPhone app on a ipad does though. Imagine what you can do on a native iconsole game though. World of Warcraft could have a
    custom ui on the ipad with all the buttons you need, customizable, with cool graphics. You won't need a HUD on the screen or scores or keyboard entry. The screen can just have the game and the ipad can have the interface with all the help screens and tooltips that wouldn't work well on the tv. Every game could be as customized as buying guitar hero with a guitar.

    Apple will love this also because it will sell a heck of a lot more ipads too.
     
  7. n0mad

    n0mad

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    I'm not running a mental help facility, but I'm browsing the pages you're messing up. I hope you can see the point.

    How many people do you need to point their finger at you to realize that you seriously need to stop your agressive attitude ?

    So putting a "oh well" smiling emote is disrespect to you ? reminds me of Jehsup going crazy at Tom using happy emotes too ... lol what's wrong with emotes aleady ?
     
  8. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @Tempest, I don't see anyone pissing and moaning when Eric rolls his eyes at people or expresses his views in a biased, holier than manner. Most civilized people would consider both disrespectful and rude. What's good for the goose, and all that.

    @nomad, are you the community manager now? Just because you start a conversation doesn't make your the referee of that topic. If you don't want other people commenting on your views you should keep them to yourself instead of posting them on a public forum.

    Also, my behavior isn't aggressive, it's reactionary. There's a difference.
     
  9. MarkHenryC

    MarkHenryC

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    That's starting to sound pretty interesting. If so, they'll have to change or modify their policy on middleware, as the big dev shops will want to leverage their existing code. Or maybe it's just an interim policy and they'll eventually make it redundant by going the way of console manufacturers in restricting developer licenses. After all, as has been pointed out on this thread, it's only a tiny proportion of developers that are making any real money for Apple.
     
  10. codinghero

    codinghero

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    That's actually a very cool sounding idea, but being that the iPad lacks tactile feedback (no 'home' keys) a user would have to constantly look down at the device to see what buttons to press, player health, buffs, etc. The reason for a HUD is to provide the user with information (and in this case an interface) without drawing attention away from the action at hand. I totally get where you're coming from though.
     
  11. Tempest

    Tempest

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    You're right. You don't see people upset when Eric makes posts. I would refute your claim of "most civilized people" taking that to be disrespectful, because on this forum, that isn't the case. Eric's been making posts for a long time. I've never considered his posts to be disrespectful, even on the handful of topics where he's correcting *me*.

    @nomad, Unfortunate he's only going to listen to someone of official forum authority. Unless you're from UT, you're opinion doesn't matter. See, because you're not a community manager, you couldn't possibly try to referee a topic.

    Whatever the difference, it isn't very civilized, not by any standards by this community.

    Eric posts an opinion, which you call a "false statement".
    Then, everyone needs to be cool with you, because you're just posting your opinion. Whatever. Either you play with everyone, or you're a bully. That's what I mean about your requirement that no one can try to referee this unless they're the person of authority. People can say when you're out of line, just like you're able to say what you like.
     
  12. n0mad

    n0mad

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    Listen, tough guy.
    This place used to be a peaceful, professional forum, where nobody had a word higher than the other.
    This made it an enjoyable place, to the point where Unity Staff themselves made this community a part of Unity3D commercial arguments over other engines : a cheerful, helpful and enjoyable community.

    Now look at how you're talking to people, put your pride down for one second, and jump to conclusions.

    No, in your case, there is none.

    @Tempest : Yes, seems like he won't listen anybody until he's banned :/
    (and I'm not even sure he will change his mind at this point)
     
  13. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @Tempest, if I'm expected to be politically correct and walk on eggshells, you must hold the same standard for everyone. I, and literally every person I know, take offense at people rolling their eyes. If he acts in a way that so many find disrespectful and rude he should expect backlash. Also, the phrase, "...consoles are a money sink," isn't an opinion. To make it an opinion he should have prefaced it with, "In my opinion..." Finally, I'm telling n0mad he's not the referee because he claimed he was "running" the discussion. I'm not trying to referee anything, dude, you misunderstood that one.

    @n0mad, tough guy huh? :D Dude, you said:
    No, you're not. That's all I was saying above. And yes, there is a difference between aggressive and reactionary. Look it up.
     
  14. n0mad

    n0mad

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    Oh crap, wanted to say "browsing" ... Damn non-english-natively-speaking me.

    Anyway, what I wanted to mean globally is that your "retaliation"(©you) level in your answers was disproportional, regarding Eric's comments.

    TL;DR : we really don't need any form of aggressivity in this formerly nice place, whatever the reason is, whatever hard time it is, and may it be justified or not.

    edit : Hey, you're smiley is working ! I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now ! :idea:
     
  15. prime31

    prime31

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    Alrighty then. Moving on to other things.

    How is everyone's evaluation of alternative 3D engines going? Has everyone tried out the loads of demos in the Oolong engine? Some are looking really nice but man is it ugly throwing in all that openGL. SIO2 is still looking the most promising which is convenient seeing as how Blender is my modler of choice. The 1.5 version should be nice.

    I sure would prefer to use Unity but there comes a time when evaluating a few other options doesn't hurt.

    Are we back on topic yet?
     
  16. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @n0mad, haha, totally alright, dude. I figured you didn't really mean "running," but seeing as how my "bad English" comment a few weeks ago caught so much flack I didn't feel like rehashing that one.

    Also, I will concede that I may have been a bit too over-retaliatory, but his demeanor has been bugging for some time to the point I felt like saying something.

    Either way, I've said it and I think you and I understand our most current issues so if you feel the need to drag this one out further, feel free. Me? I'm good for now. ;)
     
  17. n0mad

    n0mad

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    n0mad.happynow()

    ( lol @ males with our punch-and-hug relationships )
     
  18. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    Their gross and net profit margins are not that much higher than the industry averages. The idea that they are "huge" comes from the fact that they are actually quite normal compared to computer makers like Dell who have unhealthy margins. Microsoft does quite a bit better (although that's rather apples oranges since they're primarily a software company, which is the part that makes money).

    I missed that part...I can't see that working at all, I'm afraid. The problem with touch in a remote is that you generally have to look at it to use it, and looking at the remote instead of the TV seems to defeat the purpose.

    --Eric
     
  19. Gaspedal

    Gaspedal

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    I see the bad news coming :cry: Is there really a "calm before the storm" ?
    I suspect that there are problems with ToS and Unity negotiate with Apple.
     
  20. cmonkey

    cmonkey

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    So it does seem that SIO2 is a TOS-safe alternative,
    at least from this post:

    http://forum.sio2interactive.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=445

    Lua is apparently optional, but not necessary.
    So an non-Lua SIO2 app would seemingly be TOS-safe?

     
  21. Vern_Shurtz

    Vern_Shurtz

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  22. n0mad

    n0mad

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    Breaking quote in this post you're linking :

    He seems to be damn sure about it ...
     
  23. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    he is sure about a lot including the fact that his crappy halfbaken mess thats called editor is great so I wouldn't give to much on that.

    As if his engine would get away if they ban middleware, as he, unlike Unity actually, breaks even the developer contract by offering windows authoring for iPhone content.

    Chances are higher that apple will add a new point that ensures that this break of contract is not tolerated or that apple just decides to ban technologies like his completely for asking devs to break their contracts
     
  24. cmonkey

    cmonkey

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    Thanks Vern_S

    I'd also strongly prefer to stay with Unity iPhone ...
    but it is important to investigate other alternatives.

    I just downloaded SIO2, now that I know that Lua
    can be excluded for an iPhone app.

    The artists that I work with aren't crazy about
    Blender, but I'm open to checking out SIO2.


     
  25. Vern_Shurtz

    Vern_Shurtz

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    So you don't like the editor.. That's fine, no need to be harsh. Coming from a 3D Artist standpoint I have used 3D Studio for over 18 years and everytime I look at Lightwave 3D the interface and methodology behind the program makes me want to hurl. But for those that understand it and work with the program they can do some marvelous stuff. The same holds true to ShiVa 3D.

    Let's all be level headed and keep biased opinions off to the side for now.
     
  26. n0mad

    n0mad

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    Oomph :twisted:

    Well, yes, that's suspicious to be so much confident when a equally (if not more) compliant company like Unity is still showing a bit of uncertainty.

    I hope he's right, or he will face a serious problem with users anger when the final decision will hit.
     
  27. Jessy

    Jessy

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    If what you said comes true, I will pray to you as my god forever more.
     
  28. StarManta

    StarManta

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    My tea leaf reading tells me that the best possible scenario is that Unity is going to have to be modified somehow to comply - almost certainly by ditching Mono and moving to ObjC. In which case any code we write now is useless....

    (On the plus side, Unity will probably come out of it stronger. No more multi-megabyte Mono on iPhone builds?)
     
  29. cmonkey

    cmonkey

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    Hi StarManta,

    That is my hunch as well, unless Apple becomes nice.

    In the meantime, I'm taking a closer look at SIO2.
    Its much better documented than Oolong.
    I'm going through their example code now ...


     
  30. Vern_Shurtz

    Vern_Shurtz

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  31. 3Duaun

    3Duaun

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    has anyone checked out the new iPhone/OSX beta of Game Editor, a 2D opensource game engine? Does anyone have any details on it? or experience with it?

    I'm still sticking with Unity, but I just heard about this one and wanted to see if anyone here has heard of or used it?

    http://game-editor.com/
     
  32. codinghero

    codinghero

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    I actually have to say that after spending two solid weeks learning the ins outs and in-betweens, I actually like the Shiva editor. Some things take more steps than Unity, others take less. It's just different.

    Finally back to the root of the thread. There is still no concrete evidence that they aim to ban middleware. One has to read into the wording to get that. Until they come forward to say that apps must be built on a Mac with XCode this is still a gray area.

    Exactly. I love Lightwave like an ugly baby. ;)
     
  33. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    From what I recall it already performed badly on the desktop compared to about any other technology.

    If you want to go with something 100% safe on the iphone, my recommendation goes towards Cocos2D. Was also developped especially for it and is much more productive to use as it is built around the iphone ideas.
    And it comes with box2d and chipmunks bindings if you want, so really heavy stuff :)
     
  34. VIC20

    VIC20

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    I've submitted my App April 22, it's "in review" since 09:05 PST - I think it's already 18:35 PST - is it normal that a review takes more than a day?
     
  35. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    yes up to 4 (work?) days is normal since the iPad final send in for day 0 phase

    with content that potentially needs to checked deeper due to IP, naming, content age correctness etc, it can take up to two weeks.
     
  36. MattCarr

    MattCarr

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    Personally this has not affected my development at all. I think it would be very unlikely that Unity would remove Mono and implement another "compliant" language into the system because it would be a massive undertaking that drastically alter the product and remove the code-once-deploy-anywhere functionality between the iDevice and other Unity platforms.

    I'm sure Unity will come to an agreement with Apple and/or do some backend magic to make Unity compliant without significantly altering the product from where it is today. If you're in a position to do so, just continue development of your projects and don't panic or use this as an excuse to procrastinate.

    Obviously if you stand to lose a lot if things go bad then you should manage the risk and look at other options, but from my experience with Unity and their comments, I really think the benefit of the doubt should go with Unity on this.

    I'd say we're waiting on Apple to internally discuss and clarify their intentions and/or waiting for the Unity programmers to find a way to bring compliance (whether it's to the letter of the ToS or an agreed upon middle ground with Apple) to the product without affecting how it works for us.

    Hopefully we'll know more in a few days, but in the mean time I think people should calm down and try not to expect the worst.
     
  37. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    I would personally expect that this is gone either way.
    Either by removing mono or by just removing the possibility to transfer anything to unity iphone any longer by making it a distinct project format.

    Because independent how unity is going to comply, the platform exclusivity point will be a requirement for pretty sure as its pretty safe to assume that the point of 3.3.1 was not just killing Adobe / Flash but also to kill exactly this do one use multiple times thing with Apples direct competitors where the Android support was even announced by UT already. (considering how smart the idea was to piss all commercial developers that just can't justify any investments thanks to the current appstore flood is another topic but it seems like apple is preparing to go against that too after their hire of the ign editor. Lets see if the outcome is less money controlled than all digital game mags so its of any use for anyone but the big players with moneytrees)

    I personally wouldn't mind about that as I've never supported the desktop <-> iphone move and it just works approaches as I've yet to see a single game that worked fine, optimized and platform adequate in this case.
     
  38. VIC20

    VIC20

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    mhhhh it's just a dice game
     
  39. MattCarr

    MattCarr

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    That Apple is doing this to prevent cross platform development is just speculation. I could take the engine I've built with Ogre for PC development and using the built in iPhone rendering support Ogre has now, I could have a compliant, cross platform engine (If I removed my LUA support) in a few days if I wanted. The point being that it is very easy to have a cross platform engine that complies with the new ToS and I don't think they're related.

    And I think it's a bit extreme to be against Unity's desktop <-> iPhone abilities based on the quality of some games that may have done this. It's the fault of those developers that they didn't optimise and adjust for the specific platforms, not in the philosophy or ability of Unity. With Unity's plan to integrate iPhone development with the standard Unity application with 3.0, I'm sure they'll do everything in their power to overcome this without distrupting that.
     
  40. Sfernald

    Sfernald

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    I think comments like these are pretty funny. This is the kind of comment the guy in the zombie movie makes ("ahhh, I don't believe in any of this zombie business and you shouldn't either.") just before the zombie horde comes breaking down his door.

    Why aren't you guys looking at c++ frameworks? Then you can port the game to just about any platform in existence and you can use a nice fast development environment like visual studio 2010.

    For 2d, look at sdl, allegro, and gosu. I especially recommend gosu because it is nicely object oriented and uses smart pointers and such to relieve you from some of the difficulty of memory management.

    For 3d, take a look at ogre and irrlicht. Ogre has tools to make a lot of things easier. But you will probably want to build your own tools/level editor anyway.

    For audio, bass is super easy or if you want the best try fmod. If you only want free then there is openal and probably others.

    Building a project that uses these libraries is not that hard - maybe a one or two day job.

    If this seems like too much then maybe a group of developers from here should band together and put together a suitable engine sharing the costs of development.

    If you use c++ you should be pretty future proof expect for platforms like xbox that have development locked tightly to Microsoft technologies.
     
  41. tractiongames

    tractiongames

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    Just following up on the submission of our Lite version of Stick Skater.

    Submitted April 22nd.
    Approved April 28th.

    We did get the submission in before the 5pm deadline of the new TOS on the 22nd of April but at least we know they are approving apps past this date.

    My advice to anyone else is, if you are able to finish your game in the next couple of months, do it. If not, then I would wait for a formal response from Unity / Apple. I really do not think they will pull a pre-approved app from the App Store. Once they get the validation code that checks for middleware ready, they will just start to stonewall incoming submissions (this is worst case scenario of course)
     
  42. MattCarr

    MattCarr

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    I don't know what that project would be, but even a developer working with a complete game engine that they're experienced with could not develop a worthwhile project in 2 days.

    Most of what you mentioned are not actually complete game engines and developing an extensible engine using some of those is no small undertaking. I personally use Unity because I'm a fan of it's design and workflow and it means I can focus on the product and not the engine. If I was to develop an engine that offered the features I wanted, it would take me months (granted, I do my personal business's development after work hours and on weekends), and that's even if I was to build on the months of work I've already put into a substantial data driven 3D engine.

    Could I make my current project quicker outside of Unity? Sure, especially since it's 2D. I'd grab Cocos2D and overall it would probably only add an extra couple of weeks onto the development time. But I have a large library of Unity scripts and custom editors that I like to use and build upon, so if possible, I'd like the continue using Unity.

    I'm an experienced developer and I work in the games industry and I try to be pretty professional in discussions on the internet so I've somewhat given you a response, but honestly with quotes like the one below, I can see that you aren't actually knowledgable about what you're talking about so I really didn't need to bother.

    Edit: Just wanted to mention that I wasn't attempting to be antagonistic there, but just pointing out that if you're going to personally deride someones opinion and then offer advice to a community, you should atleast know what you're talking about. Note that you can of course use C++ to develop an Xbox 360 title. You are probably mistakingly believing that the XNA Framework is a requirement for developing Xbox 360 games. Only Xbox Live Community Games would have that 'requirement'.
     
  43. Sfernald

    Sfernald

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    By project I meant simple demo that utilized the libraries, not any sort of framework.

    About the xbox, that is good to know, I am a live community developer but i know I'll never reach the level/resources needed to be allowed to program in c++, so the option might as well not exist for me. But that just supports my argument in any case.

    Ok, I know this sucks to hear, but the reality is that all the code and scripts and libraries you have developed in mono c#/js/boo are about to become worthless to you if you want to use them in an iPhone/iPad project. There is just no way apple will allow Microsoft tech in any more. They are clearly drawing the line in the sand and protecting their turf. And make no mistake, mono is Microsoft tech, backed by Microsoft patents and such. That is probably the one and only thing (unfortunately a huge thing) that kills unity. Smart developers should start making preparations sooner rather than later, because sometimes silence means nothing, but other times as in this case it is deafening.
     
  44. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    Mono is exactly NO Microsoft thing, and Mono Touch as an iphone only thing even less.

    Mono is also not backed by any patents, up to last autumn it was not even clear if it is not just killed till microsoft changed its attitude officially towards it and moved much more to open standard etc.

    The only thing thats a Microsoft thing is MS .NET and Silverlight, which neither run outside of Windows and Windows mobile at all
     
  45. Sfernald

    Sfernald

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    I disagree. Only a team of lawyers could tell that. Look at how aggressive ms is with their patents. They are now charging phone manufacturers license fees for using the android os. Any belief that you have that you have no patent worries with mono is naive. Companies get funny when shareholders get antsy for more profits. Really, check out the android licensing thing. It is sobering.
     
  46. prime31

    prime31

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    I don't want to get involved in any sort of flame war because I'm just talking out of my ass here so take this all with a grain of salt and a dingleberry. Aren't the keepers of Mono Novell who happen to "work closely" with Microsoft? I believe in the world of Linux Novell is considered to be sell outs and Microsofts puppet due to their involvements with the "evil party". It is quite possible...scratch that. It is VERY, VERY possible that Novell and MS have extensive ties and plenty of good natured trade secret trading going on. But, what the hell do I or anyone else around here know? Nothing. We don't know what the Novell puppet does for MS or what Microsofts sneaky ass scheme is with Novell/Mono and we sure as hell don't have any clue if we will be able to use C#/Unity on the iPhone ever again. In fact, right now the only thing I do know is this thread is totally out of control and we all really need to find out what the heck is going to happen with Unity fast before this thread kills all of us.
     
  47. MattCarr

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    As dreamora states above and as has been stated in this thread previously, it's not Microsoft tech. Comments like these are the reason I've posted because while it's fine to speculate, incorrect statements like yours will cause unnecessary distress for some Unity users that take them at face value.
     
  48. Sfernald

    Sfernald

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    It is spawn of Microsoft. C# was and is microsoft's leading language, and because mono is an open source version of .NET it is no doubt encumbered by Microsoft patents. I'm sure in apple's eyes, they see it as a Microsoft technology. They know that companies like adobe, Microsoft and oracle/sun use these technologies as a kind of mindshare capture. We are all just pawns in their great battle. And right now it is really sucking to be a pawn!
     
  49. MattCarr

    MattCarr

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    So your interpretation of Apple's ToS change then is that they're trying to stop C# usage because of it's Microsoft affiliation? So therefore Apple would be sated if Unity only supported Javascript for Unity iPhone? This is obviously not the case and it's not Apple's agenda.
     
  50. Sfernald

    Sfernald

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    I see the bottom line as apple wants to keep these other juggernaut companies out of its business.

    It changed the tos primarily to keep adobe out.

    Upon looking specifically at unity, they would be fine with it more or less if it didn't use mono. If it was just using a true open source language like lua, apple probably wouldn't care as much. If unity had built their own internal vm and own scripting language (something like unrealscript), then the outcome might be different. However, the relationship of mono to microsoft is going to tip the scales and there's no doubt in my mind unity will be forced to remove the vm, which I think is what unity is struggling over right now.