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H1Z1 cheaters to apologise publicly

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by minionnz, May 20, 2015.

  1. minionnz

    minionnz

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  2. dogzerx2

    dogzerx2

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    I think it's cool. Apologizing when you have done something wrong is not humiliation.
     
  3. HemiMG

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    Forcing someone to apologize is a form of humiliation because they are being forced to say something that they don't mean and likely don't believe in making forced apologies completely pointless all around. But that doesn't seem to be the case here, the cheaters apologized to the company and the company merely said, "We aren't the ones you need to apologize to." In this case, the apologize seem sincere, or at the very least, self-initiated.
     
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  4. Tomnnn

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    That is a pretty tough dev. I bet activision higher ups would die reading that. I approve.
     
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  5. drewradley

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    isn't it illegal to actually prevent people from playing a game they have paid for? I mean, that's like Honda telling me I can't drive my car anymore because I customized it beyond what they provide. Seems to me that if it is so easy that 24,000 people have been banned, the developers need to fix the problems they are exploiting and banning people who paid for it is a S***ty move, no matter. of course, I don't play MMOs so maybe it's different situation and they need to ban them to allow other players to actually enjoy the game. But I still think it's S***ty to ban people who paid you money.
     
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  6. arty155

    arty155

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    Bans are a common occurrence in MMOs; cheating, hacking, botting, gold spamming are all bannable offenses depending on the game being played. A normal EULA states that any of the aforementioned are bannable offenses. You don't pay for the game, you pay for the right to lease the game time.

    I think it's a creative way for the devs to send a message not only in the fact that they are banning, but on who it hurts ultimately.
     
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  7. Archania

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    Lol well since you stated you don't play mmo games, it really sucks as you finally get time to play the game and everything you want to do is filled with bots or people using hacks to do things. So that awesome time you thought you were going to have just went down the toilet.
    And don't forget there are rules to the game that you agreed to even before you clicked play. You know the things you scroll to the end as fast as the mouse would go and click "I Agree".
    They broke it so they are banned. Oh well.
     
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  8. JasonBricco

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    Maybe if we're talking about single player, it would be illegal to ban them for cheating. In an MMO, the player's actions can affect the playing experience of the other players as well. It's not really a personal thing anymore. I personally wouldn't want to play an MMO filled with cheaters. Ruins the enjoyment you get from doing things the legitimate way.
     
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  9. wbailey79

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    I think the Devs are absolutely in the right on this matter. Integrity and accountability are two traits that are greatly lacking for a lot of people. One purpose of an EULA is to help keep people accountable for their actions, and if people are clearly violating that, and taking advantage of exploits or other cheats then that of course reflects poorly on the integrity of their character. And I don't mean character as in game character.
    That's just my two cents.
     
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  10. Tomnnn

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    @JasonBricco I agree that single player games should not be able to ban players, but any game that has DRM can :/

    It's always online so it is both capable of monitoring your game for cheats and revoking your access. We need to stand against this practice which usually fails anyway! Whether the game was made in 1990, 2015, is online only or even an mmo, it will be pirated eventually.
     
  11. zombiegorilla

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    Me like. I like that are giving them a way to get unbanned and that the apology is to directed at the players.
     
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  12. Kiwasi

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    Maybe Honda doesn't have the right. But the local police certainly do. Honda may also refuse to service a car or void your warranty for certain modifications.

    While internet and digital law is still pretty fuzzy, breaking the EULA as a grounds for being banned using a product is pretty standard. I can hardly see a court restoring one player to the detriment of hundreds of others.
     
  13. Tomnnn

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    The problem with digital products that have built in DRM is that they can actually enforce it. Imagine if making a mod on a honda car was actually against their terms of service, the car detected the non-stock state, and then wouldn't turn on anymore.

    Computers in cars... GPS & internet in cars... it's all there. The check engine light would be replaced by the "Voided ToS" light.
     
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  14. minionnz

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    I guess it's ok since it's optional - they're not being forced to apologise. Reminds me of some news article I read about a father making his son stand out on a busy road with "I am a bully - honk if you hate bullying" sign.

    As for banning being illegal, I don't think so - even without the EULA. The company still maintains the servers and infrastructure - they're providing a service and if you break the rules you won't be allowed to use their service anymore.
    It's the same as going into a local restaurant and causing trouble - you should expect to be banned.
     
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  15. Eric5h5

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    Yay, car analogies!

    --Eric
     
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  16. Not_Sure

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    IDK, I'm a huge fan of isolating trolls and cheats to their own servers. No fuss, no debate of ethics, no taking away the product from a paying customer. Everyone wins.

    Forced apologies don't really change or prove anything.
     
  17. Teila

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    An apology, that is all? In Roma Victor they hung a guy's character in public. I remember it was all over the news. I would prefer a nice set of stocks and some virtual tomatoes. Anyone want to help me code that for our game? :)
     
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  18. Kiwasi

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    I do like this idea. As long as the punishment is period relevant and doesn't break game immersion. Apologies do allow the same users to break the rules again.
     
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  19. Tomnnn

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    @Teila that's pretty awesome. A public hanging in a videogame, haha!
     
  20. the_motionblur

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    No - you are violating the EULA and thus it's their right to ban people. At it's heart games are just software which has it's terms of use you are agreeing to.
    Sure there are moral grey areas like cheating in ingle player games or cheating in a private group where a cheat is more like a mod. But if someone is cheating in a public game he or she often destroys the fun for everybody else and thus decimates the value of the game for the publisher. So while it may seem strict for a game it's still more or less a service a publisher actually should provide in some way if it affects other people.

    And modifying your Honda would be cheating in single player, BTW. Except if your Honda get's a top mounted gattling gun and pedestrian impaling spikes. In which case it would pretty certain be illegal as well, though. ;)
     
  21. Zeblote

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    If a single player game has drm then you go pirate a version that doesn't. Where's the problem here?
     
  22. the_motionblur

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    Well, for starters maybe that it's illegal to pirate software....
     
  23. Zeblote

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    Who cares? If you bought a game and it stops working, find another way...
     
  24. Archania

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    So you support looking for an illegal way then. Ya your the type of person that the EULA are written for.
    Unless your being funny.
     
  25. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    It's just PR so there's a reason this game is in the press. It's all bollocks.

    Blizzard struck a nice balance.
     
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  26. 00christian00

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    Honda may not go to such extremes, but luxury brands like Ferrari take their brand image very seriously and when you buy their cars you can't mod them as you wish even if the car is yours:
    http://thesupercarkids.com/ferrari-takes-legal-action-against-deadmau5-purrari-458/
     
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  27. Socrates

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  28. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Ultimately, renting everything is much more efficient and better resource usage for everyone on the planet. It's actually a retarded and outdated concept to own furniture, cars, houses. You don't live forever.

    While a part of me that is outdated screams for ownership and rights, the realistic forward-thinking part of me understands only too well that renting or borrowing is the only realistic solution for mankind going forward. Maybe not now, but inevitable.
     
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  29. the_motionblur

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    I would not say inevitable just because large companies are massively pushing it. It's one possible outcome at the moment but I see a lot of negatives with the few positives in total borrowing solutions.
    How do you see it as the only realistic solution?
     
  30. hippocoder

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    Because we'll run out of resources. They're not infinite you know.
     
  31. GreenBoxInteractive

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    I don't think exploiters should be unbanned unless they apologize without being forced.
     
  32. wbailey79

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    It's interesting how in this thread the idea that somehow people are being "forced" to apologize keeps coming up. This is simply is not the case.
     
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  33. hippocoder

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    The act of asking someone to debase themselves for whatever reason, isn't very honourable.
     
  34. Teila

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    I think they already debased themselves by cheating and affecting other players. :) That said, if the apology was offered, it is meaningful. If it was the only way these folks could play the game again, then it was coercion and means nothing. I would have just banned them for a specific period of time and then let them try again.....or put them in the stocks and let players throw tomatoes at them...I really like that idea. :)

    I have always thought that public humiliation, if done in a way that was part of the game, could be a great deterrent. It should not be personal but should focus on the in-game activities and suit the style of the game. In a medieval world, pulling the criminal around in a caged wagon while people spit at him was one form of punishment.

    I am talking in-game, not in real life, btw. :)
     
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  35. Ostwind

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    I watched few of the videos and I like the idea. It's optional and the guys who have posted a video aren't really naming and shaming themselves in a way you would think as there are no details. Some of them gave good reasons and anyways anyone who puts a video like that should deserve a second chance.

    (note: I have played the game and been killed several times by cheaters in it. When you die you lose pretty much everything and takes time to stock up so it's nothing like getting killed in Battlefield by aimbotter)
     
  36. hippocoder

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    The difference is that these are people who paid for a computer game they decided to cheat with for laughs. You shouldn't have to design yourself into a corner where you're punishing your customers.
     
  37. AndyUK

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    I don't know which is worse... the cheats or John Smedley. I still can't forgive him for ruining Star Wars Galaxies and being so detached from the gaming community that he insisted that the wholesale changes to the game were in our interests.

    I put them both on a par... somewhere between bottom feeders and vermin!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
  38. Teila

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    They also agreed to the terms when they paid to play the game. Why is it okay for people to break the rules just because they paid money? That is the issue here.

    Seriously, have you ever been on the receiving end of people who break rules in online multiplayer games? I have and it is not fun. It ruined my fun and scared me. My teen daughter had a similar experience and she won't even play an online game anymore. So....how many people leave games because of the behavior of others? Is it the responsibility of the company/game developers/whatever to make sure that other people follow the rules they agreed to follow so that those who are following the rules can enjoy the game?

    I find it sad that it is okay to cheat and treat other people badly, even breaking rules meant to keep the game safe and enjoyable for everyone. Too many games turn a blind eye to this stuff. Banning should be the last resort but if short-term bans or other restrictions do not work, then permanent bans have to be available.

    Paying for a product means nothing...I paid for my car, but if I use it to hurt someone intentionally, then I break the rules of driving that car. Same is true of most products...I can't use my hammer to hit someone just because I paid for the hammer. Nor can I use the U.S. mail system to cheat and scam people even if I paid for the stamp and taxes that support the system.
     
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  39. hippocoder

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  40. Gigiwoo

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    It's a PR move, and a clever one! At minimal cost, they reinforce their brand, create a viral story (plus videos!), and shift the hatred away from themselves and towards the cheaters. Brilliant!

    Gigi
     
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  41. Teila

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    Consequences...not punishment. Consequences are the results of your own actions.

    And what about the people who follow the rules? Are they not punished when others break the rules and are allowed to do so?
     
  42. wbailey79

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    In MMO games cheating has the potential of ruining the game for those who do not cheat. The consequence of this going unpunished could result in those who are not cheating to quit the game and spread the word influencing others not to play or buy the game. Or even worse publicly defaming the company name causing many others to lose Trust in the brand.
    After all if I am a paying customer who is bound by EULA and/or TOS that are not being enforced ,why should I trust your company to keep good on their agreements? More importantly, why should I play your games?

    Sure some of the cheaters did attempt to apologize initially, however keep in mind that their actions hurt the other customers who are not cheating. Asking that apologies be directed towards their fellow players is not "forced", or "shaming" or "debasing" in any way. (Remember they have a choice not to apologize, just like they made the choice to cheat.) It is simply holding violators accountable for their own actions, and maintaining the trust of those who are not cheating in the brand.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
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  43. Teila

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    I think it is very easy to look through the eyes of the offending players and not so easy to look through the eyes of the other players. I also think it is easy to look through the eyes of the "business end" with the belief that your customers might be offended by the ban or the "forced" apology.

    But...what we forget is that many customers are offended by the rampant cheating on games these days and the effect of this cheating and misbehavior on there gaming time.

    An MMO dominated by unresponsive bots is not fun for a large number of players. My kids have tried and left games for this reason. A game where players are harassed or griefed is not fun for a large number of players. A game where people cheat and then use the power gained from cheating to abuse other players is not fun for the vast majority of players.

    From a business sense, it makes sense to cater to the majority of players who abide by the agreement they "signed" when purchasing the game, and often, every time they log in. If not, you lose many more, as Vorpalstar stated.

    When you allow your game to become "owned" by the cheaters and griefers, you HAVE designed your game into a corner. Designing to deal with those issues in a way that is immersive and even could be fun, is at least an attempt to deal with the problem.

    Unfortunately, most games simply don't worry about it until it happens. Then they have to be punitive. But as Gigi said, it might actually help gain them attention so it might be good for business after all!
     
  44. GarBenjamin

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    I don't know about the video part. I think my view when watching one was basically "yep so you're the kind of loser who runs all of the bots and other ways to cheat". I suppose in a way it may be good to put a face on the cheater instead of warlord666 or whatever. But anyway videos aside I think it is great to weed out these kind of people. They are one of the reasons I rarely get into MMOs these days other than D3. Just too many arseholes that ruin the game because they have no skills and need to cheat at everything.
     
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  45. Tomnnn

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    Piracy is the only way to preserve history. When DRM games lose their licensing, the game can be deactivated and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

    Greedy practices have actually made piracy mandatory for people who enjoy collections / history :O
     
  46. Kiwasi

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    Wait, so the ultimate result of breaking the game is getting the game developers to promote your youtube video?

    Seems like a great way to disincentive cheating.
     
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  47. Teila

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    Yeah, funny, huh? My son visited this thread and did a little bit of research. Amazing story....but we will see what happens in the future.
     
  48. the_motionblur

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    We are talking about software here. I highly doubt that software is bound to the resource limits in the same way as physical goods like oil or gold. For software I just cannot see why ownership is supposed to be a thing of the past.
     
  49. HemiMG

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    I've never played an MMO, but before it was illegal to play poker for real money online I would frequently pay some small amount for a tournament. I didn't care about winning, I considered it spent money just to have an enjoyable time. The alternative is the free money tournaments where everyone goes all in pre-flop. That isn't cheating, of course, but it's also not playing the game the way it is supposed to be played. I haven't played since it became illegal for me to spend my money. So I can easily see how MMO makers not cracking down on this kind of thing would drive customers away and be a really bad thing for the experience.

    This doesn't make sense. You know who you rent from? The person who owns something. Renting in no way sidesteps ownership. My parents owned a house; they died and I now live it in. They didn't take it to the grave with them. Had I not wanted to live in it I would have sold it and someone else would be living in it. Or maybe I would have rented it out, which doesn't change my ownership of it. The same thing goes for cars, and any other physical object. When the owner stops using it, someone else begins, just like renting.
     
  50. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    It's fine if you guys can't see it, I fully believe you won't be swayed.
     
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