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Google Play store requires devs to provide physical address, will be viewable by everyone

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by BeefSupreme, Sep 18, 2014.

  1. Ostwind

    Ostwind

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    Well key thing in your example is that those places pick and approve what they sell or what is sold at their market. Google does not do anything or does it really bad like you say. How many times there have been malware live wallpapers, infected clone apps or etc in Google Play? and then compare to those you listed.

    I agree this address thing seems a bit radical and does not resolve anything if people are allowed to enter any address there or PO box. However if it will be limited or checked against Google Wallet or credit card address things might get interesting.
     
  2. dogzerx2

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    This ensures if you make a bad game with too much iap you'll get a mob of angry gamers outside your door. More often than not the unsuspecting indie gamedev is thrown off a cliff. This is a risky biz guys!
     
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  3. Aiursrage2k

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    if you put out a crap app no ones going to download it anyway! the iOS store is still full of junk, even greenlight with its pay per title is junk town. When I go on my ps4 all the indie games have been curated so I know it will be reasonale quality, and therefore more likely to throw down $15 on an unknown indie game
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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  4. Tomnnn

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    I live on the corner of Heavily Armed and Come at me Bro.

    But seriously, the address should not be viewable to everyone. Or else. I can see it now... the play store serial killer.
     
  5. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Well, they do hate it vs the sheer volume of people purchasing in a walled garden, like Apple's. The transaction amounts are like night and day. But obviously, you know best.
     
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  6. HemiMG

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    I never said I know best, at least not anymore than you did. Apple doesn't require physical addresses either, so I'm not sure why you hold them up as being outside of the group I mentioned. And many of those stores, certainly all of the app stores, are just as walled of a garden as Apple is. Which, as I've pointed out repeatedly, is the real distinction between Google and everyone else. Google could solve the problem instantly without annoying developers, regardless of whether us being annoyed by this is justified or not, simply by curating their store the way literally every other app store in existence does.
     
  7. ShilohGames

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    I completely understand having the physical address of registered businesses (such as a LLC or INC), but not the physical home address of indie devs. This crosses the line too far on privacy. There are crazy people out there, and crazy people will do crazy things with that information.

    Any popular indie app maker can expect some of the following by sharing his/her physical home address:
    1) lots more junk mail
    2) pizza bombing
    3) swatting
    4) poop in a bag on the doorstep
    5) users stopping by to get support
    6) users stopping by to rant
    7) people making threats
    8) people violating your privacy (taking photos/videos of your family and posting it online)
    9) property vandalism
    10) physical attacks

    Look at examples where little kids have killed other kids and claimed Slenderman told them to do it, and then explain how anybody could feel safe giving everybody their physical home address. It does not matter if the games you release are good or bad. If your game is popular, then crazy people will want to interact with you in one of the ten ways I listed above.
     
  8. welby

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    So this basically a cheap way for Google to hopefully auto-Curate apps?

    I guess it is a dual prong problem,

    Make devs display their own address hoping the fear of retaliation from the public dissuades from crappy or scam apps.
    or
    Google forks over it's own money to pay for 'Curators', meaning the approval of your app is at the whim of joe-shmoe employee.
     
  9. tswalk

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    if you're concerned with people "finding" you because of your information... then I hope you don't have a "legitimate" business, this requires your actual name and address for tax purposes... ALL public records.

    all I would need is to know your company name, and I can dig anything out about I want... including:

    leans, loans, who signed, who holds it, for what amount,.... etc., etc., etc....

    so, unless you ARE operating a "fake" business.. you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
     
  10. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    Yeah it would have to go through some kind of quality control. Take for example trying to get into unitys 'union program'-- they wont let anyone get in it will have to be of a certain level of quality.
     
  11. randomperson42

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    What's to keep people from entering a fake address?
     
  12. HemiMG

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    Any customer can already get that information. Our addresses show in their Google Wallet accounts on their receipts. But there is added friction there. It's much different than having it published directly on Google Play. If they have a legitimate complaint, or need to contact us, they can already get our address quite easily. I don't see why it needs to be made more public.
     
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  13. Gigiwoo

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    You do know that ~70% of all jobs are created by small businesses, right? And, in the US, those businesses are often < 5 people, and just as likely to be run from someone's home. Yes, Gigi Games, LLC is a valid business, and NO, I don't want to get random threats/contacts at my home address, so I will point them to Legalzoom ... I understand how from your perspective this could help reduce competition and reduce the craptastic-me-too-ness of App Stores, it does not necessarily mean it's a good thing.

    Even if your game is a perfectly innocent flower picking game, some freak could take offense and send you a bomb. I've gotten nasty-grams even from posting on the forums, and I'm generally a pretty nice, helpful fellow. The internet embodies the best and worst of humanity, which is why I taught my kids NOT to share personal information on it.

    Gigi
     
  14. hippocoder

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    Well, Apple requires a physical address, and valid banking details as part of the setup for itunes. It doesn't however, display the details in public. Although you do have the right to request the address of any developer if you contact apple with good reason to do so, such as an infringement. Which is the same thing, just not advertised. Still, anyone can find an app developer in the Apple ecosystem. Thinking about it, I guess many people didn't realise this. Hahaha.

    Anyway, the real problem is as you point out, a lack of curated content. Not sure how easily these problems get solved. But google with it's billions obviously thinks it might have a solution here.

    You have a good point, and part of me does agree with you. And yes, I'm wanting to reduce the amount of crap on stores.

    I wonder if google will revoke this? It seems to be sparking a lot of outcry.
     
  15. Gigiwoo

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    I have 7 iOS apps and I can tell you for 100% certainly that a human, at Apple, has looked at each one. Yes, most of my interactions are semi-form letters, and yet, I get very specific questions about my apps that could only have come from a human. They have a LOT of reviewers, and still, it took 14 days to get approval for Tap Happy. Good and Bad.

    Gigi
     
  16. HemiMG

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    So does Google don't they? I set up my account years ago, so I don't know what options you have now. But my address and banking info is certainly there. If you go to wallet.google.com (not your developer account) and click on any app you've purchased, the address of the seller pops up. There isn't one on my list that doesn't have an address on there. Why isn't that sufficient? In fact, it's EASIER to get that information from Google than it is from Apple.
     
  17. Ostwind

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    Well let me tell something I see when you are comparing Google registration to others app markets. First I live in Finland so the process could be different for each country but I would not call Finland a place where people do fake accounts easily or at all. Also we are part of EU so all system integration is very for info checks.

    First lets take Apple. Past years I have registered as individual and as a Company. Both times they gathered enough info to verify thats it's no fake or scam stuff registering. They also made a short phone call to me to both times at end of the registration.

    Then Microsoft for Windows Store. Registered as a company, they did require all kinds of info too and did a business phone number verify call check (performed by Symantec). I've heard it's been about the same for individuals.

    Now about Google Play. All I had to do was to fill some fields on a form and pay and it seemed like the account was automatically active. The info could have been fake as hell and no legal documents were required like with Apple or MS.

    Then back to the topic. Google may have gone towards this change so they don't have to improve their registration process and when seller info is completely shown at the store they can wash their hands if any legal or other issues come up.
     
  18. HemiMG

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    I didn't realize Google Play was that easy to set up. In the US, your credit/debit card is tied to a billing address. I don't know if it is like that everyone, but it would be a very easy step for Google to just use that information for what shows from within a customer's wallet. But a more adequately vetted registration process would help more. Of course, Google seems to be all about doing whatever requires the minimum amount of work and financial effort on their part. Which is why Google Play will always be plagued with problems. None of these silly little things they do that annoy developers is going to make one shred of difference until they start taking their store seriously.
     
  19. Aiursrage2k

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  20. Socrates

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    Something that is getting forgotten is that just because someone can get past a level of protection does not mean that this level of protection is useless.

    You are right that if I have a registered business, someone can go through the paperwork request and possible fees to get all of the public information about that business. However, most "casual crazies" on the internet just aren't going to go through the bother.

    Locking your front door keeps out the casual thief, but does nothing for the determined person. Having a house alarm can catch the basic burglar, but does nothing to stop the guy who knows what he's doing. (And I don't even mean someone who can disable an alarm. That's a whole other level of skill.)

    From some arguments here that publicly listing your home address is no big deal since the internet crazies can get it anyway if they look hard enough, should I take it to mean that you don't lock the doors to your house because they really don't matter?

    Of course not. We know that locking our doors keeps out the vast majority of problems. Just like limiting the visibility of publisher addresses would do the same.


    I run a business out of my home. (Not publishing games. That is my hobby.) Around here, you can go down to a place that rents mailboxes, get a box, and then list your business address as, "[Their street address], Suite 123," or, "Unit 123," or whatever. It's an address that can receive packages and mail, with nobody coming to your front porch unless you choose to give out that address to clients.

    If I ever published a game to Google, I will simply use that address. There is no way I want my home address available. I have seen too much darkness on the internet.

    Can a determined someone still track me down find my home address? Of course they can. That won't stop me from putting a few layers of impediment in their way. I also securely bolted my front door when I came in tonight.
     
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  21. squared55

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    I assume you've never heard of Swatting? It's when someone gets your address and makes a fake 911 call to get the cops to bust down your door. It's happened to streamers, who have literally done nothing besides playing games on twitch.
     
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  22. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Then that's a problem for America in general.
     
  23. RockoDyne

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    Have you missed the news about Ferguson/St. Louis being a powder keg? Minipax has been wanting to show off those jackboots they got from DHS for a while.
     
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  24. squared55

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  25. dbryson

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    I think it's a problem for everyone, everywhere, in general. Certainly the US has a SWAT problem, but how would police in the UK (or anywhere) respond to a report of an armed gunman? Certainly they would respond in full force, since they can't know it's not real. They have to respond.

    Even credit card companies do not do this. They have your physical address but do not supply it to customers, they give them a phone number to call and they will contact you on the customers behalf if necessary.
     
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  26. sschaem

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    There is no valid reason in forcing people to disclose where they reside.
    It should be elective, and its the customer choice to buy or not to buy from a vendor that did or did not disclose publicly where he/she reside.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  27. JamesArndt

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    This is nuts. Doesn't it concern anyone how this might contribute to identity theft? I mean doesn't this just make it 100% easier for automated data miners to grab one more piece of the whole of who you are online? It's one thing to have that info out there, in a non public and much less accesible way. It's another thing entirely to effing broadcast personal details to the entire world as a Google Play label.
     
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  28. sphericPrawn

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    That's an angle I hadn't even thought of. Social engineering is in the majority of how accounts get hacked and having a home address probably gives a huge leg up to people trying to hijack someone's ad service or merchant account.
     
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  29. Seventh Stealth

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    F***ing Terrible idea
     
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  30. yoonitee

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    If they print my personal address on Google Play. I'm quitting game development for Android.

    All ready they asked me for a photocopy of my driving license.

    This is the final straw.

    Who runs Google now? The CIA?
     
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  31. Ostwind

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    Do you people understand/know that your name and other stuff has already been shown anyways to other participant if you buy or sell anything at Google Play (unless it has been changed)?
     
  32. Meltdown

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    If you're a registered business with a registered accountant, put your accountants physical address.
     
  33. JamesArndt

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    Sure do, but my point is that there is a major difference in someone having that info on a legitimate receipt or something. It's entirely different to just publicly slap it on a public web page for every data miner on the planet to easily grab. There is a reason I use domain privacy when I register a domain name. Sure if folks really want to look, they could find the info, but at least it isn't slapped on a virtual billboard that everyone virtually drives by each day.
     
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  34. Ostwind

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    Yeah I mainly was thinking swatters and other harassers that would easily know your address already if they bought a game and disliked it.

    Maybe this change is related to some EU or other global trade change *I think* I saw somewhere long time ago that every seller details must be always available to buyers before any transaction if VAT or business is involved. If it was a VAT thing then it would affect all member countries at least.
     
  35. KodiaRok

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    Wow our World is going down the drain....Seriously this is something I do not want.

    My Hobby is creating Games besides my 100% Fulltime Job. I have not yet made the Wallet Account with Google but got an Account with Microsoft. I am still a bit stuck with putting in the Tax Details as I am not business but rather a single person working from home and making Games. So I would be using my Home Adress and that would be make public?
    We have already enough maniacs around, I don't want them to know where I live...I agree that Google wants to clear their play store, but to publish my personal home adress to everyone who downloads my games is a bit to much. Stalking, Swatting, etc around my home? No Thanks!

    Just my Point of View
     
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  36. dvu

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    I totally agreed with

    Not just a blatant privacy violation.

    They're putting developers' lives at risk.

    Not every developer lives in relatively safe place like the US, or Western Europe. The world is larger than that, and there are places where criminal activity is relatively high.

    It's quite easy for someone to do the math, multiplying an app's price by its install count, and then to pay a visit to the developer -- with the intent of extortion, racket, theft, or other criminal activity.


    Asia/Eastern Europe/Latin America are not safe regions.
    if you got some money from your game you may faced with some unexpected "guests" right into your house (thanks, Google!)
     
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  37. wccrawford

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    As a person on the internet, I would never give random strangers my address. As a developer I definitely wouldn't. That's just insane. Clearly, the only sane way to do this is to get a PO Box and set that as the address. I wouldn't even set my office address there.

    As others have already said, this is just added expense for indie developers. I can't even imagine what it's really supposed to solve, either. Requiring an address is one thing, but publicly displaying it? Bonkers.
     
  38. zombiegorilla

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    I thought the solution was pretty clear. By simply posting your contact info online, it keeps the the amount of actual work and effort that Google has to put into maintaining their market place to a bare minimum.
     
  39. hippocoder

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    Yeah it sucks for those guys. Agreed.

    I guess there's always the possibility of publishers becoming more popular once again. And a publisher would be able to field and vet quality.

    The alternative is Apple. No longer a bad apple, eh?
     
  40. dvu

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    1) seems, it's time for Unity to promote http://unitygames.com/ as much as possible :) for devs from unsafe regions seems it's the only way
    2) yeah, Apple rulezzz again. I have no idea why Google try to decrease number of devs for Android but anyway, Apple App Store generates most of $$$ for devs
     
  41. HemiMG

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    Well, there's still the Amazon app store and Samsung Apps. Anything that decreases developer interest in Play can only increase interest in those two. Of course, for Samsung's offering you need to be using a Samsung phone. But Samsung seems to be trying hard to distance itself from Google. Being one of the major manufacturers of Android phones they could already steal a lot of thunder from Google Play if they can offer terms more favorable to developers. And if they ever decide to really distance from Google and not even include the Play store, that effect only increases. Google simultaneously pushing developers away while sending the message loud and clear that all they will ever do to improve Play is the bare minimum amount of work and effort isn't making it any harder for Samsung to make that decision. Remember, as far as I know, Google is the only major app store that doesn't have some kind of review process. If freaking Barnes and Noble can afford it, than Google can.
     
  42. RockoDyne

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    The irony is unsafe regions means the US.
     
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  43. KodiaRok

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    Google won't have success in my Country (Switzerland) with those steps. It is going against the Privacy Law. Every Person or Company can unregister themselves from the Phonebook or People who win lottery do not need to publish their Name to anyone. Google Streetview for example got blocked as well due to privacy law.

    So I don't think this will affect us, and if it does it won't take long to have this reversed.

    Never
     
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  44. Taschenschieber

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    Switzerland does have an "Impressumspflicht" (imprint obligation), though, the wording of which could well be interpreted in such a way that an app vendor in the App Store would be obliged to publish his contact information anyway even without Google requiring so in the ToS.
     
  45. BeefSupreme

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  46. wccrawford

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    There's a lot of assumptions there so far. It could be that Google will change their policy, and you could just get a PO Box that has a normal address. Or it could be that this uproar will make them rethink this idiocy.
     
  47. RockoDyne

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  48. Ostwind

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    Well seems like it all goes like it was speculated in some of the previous posts.
     
  49. AndrewGrayGames

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    I arrived at a far simpler solution: don't develop for Android. All of the criticism about the marketplace still applies (I own an Android phone, and have been following the market closely for a while now.) As others have said, if someone wants to dox me, they can and will, whether I've given that info up to Google, or someone else. We all have a paper trail. However, I'm not going to make it easier, either.

    And, I'm not going to do that to sell items on a marketplace that is still quite frankly a hive of scum and villainy in the form of knockoff apps, malware, and deceptive business practices.

    Besides, there are some who predict that the Mobile Market may be in line for a 'correction' due to the quality of the content getting on there, and I forsee this coming to pass. The time to get into the mobile market was years ago, not now. I'll take my chances with itch.io, Steam, GOG, Desura, and Microsoft and Sony as their indie policies open up. Mobile isn't everything.
     
  50. BeefSupreme

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    There are workarounds sure, but who knows if Google will be as lazy screening for them as they are with curating the Play Store.
     
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