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Explaining game mechanics to the player vs not? (Roguelike games)

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by Deleted User, Nov 24, 2014.

  1. Deleted User

    Deleted User

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    For example, take a rogue-like game like the original Diablo. In the game, a lot of information is not communicated to the player. Or even Pixel Dungeon. That game doesn't tell anything to the player.
    In Dark Souls, stats are not very explained so it's up to the player to find out what stats do what.

    What do you think of such a mechanic?
     
  2. LaneFox

    LaneFox

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    Generally the more you have to explain to your player through hand-holding, the worse the system is.

    Games that have their early phases or tutorial levels constructed in such a fashion that you are progressively handed slightly more complex tasks tend to be adopted easier, better, and by a wider audience. I think a good example of this would be A Tale Of Two Sons, you use 2 thumbsticks to control 2 different characters and tasks are less obvious in solution as the game continues.

    There are a lot of games that do this though, look at Starcraft; It's really complex but they start the Campaign with very simple features and as the game continues they unlock more advanced things and give you more complex and challenging missions.

    On the other hand, look at the shovelware Facebook and Mobile games that have entire levels that tell you exactly what to press, where to press it, how to press it, when to press it and by the end of the tutorial you're just miffed about the lack of freedom and likely still confused by the time its over.
     
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  3. Deleted User

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    Exactly yes. Mobile games, I've noticed, tend to do a lot more "hand-holding" than console / PC games.
     
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  4. JoeStrout

    JoeStrout

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    I wouldn't show the user the actual equations, but I think it's nice to give them the general gist of it, when that's not obvious. Something along the lines of "Eating foo root increases your defense for 30 seconds." You don't have to tell them exactly what "defense" means but at least they'll generally why it's useful (and this is something they'd have pretty much no chance to discover through observation).
     
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  5. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    If the point of doing this is to be cryptic, then it's bullshit. If you make a page that is just a wall of numbers with the only label being "stats" at the top, you basically deserve to have every person who plays that game kick you in the nuts. Most roguelikes still have some notion of conveying information, even if it's not explicit. Nethack has at least half a dozen different methods to identify items that aren't actually using a scroll or spell of identify.

    You don't always have to spell out exactly what happens, but the least you can do is convey information with some overt effect. If a spell combo has some benefit, it should be easily noticeable that the fire spell at the end did more damage because the fire is bigger or shifted to a different color.
     
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  6. JasonBricco

    JasonBricco

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    On the note about tutorials (as was discussed in the topic you directed to this topic), I think there is some use for them, though it would depend on your game. Perhaps you've introduced new types of mechanics into a genre that is familiar to people. So, while they understand the genre, they may not expect some type of mechanic you added. Pointing it out to them through a tutorial could come in handy.

    Of course, if you give the player the ability to skip the tutorial anyway, I'm not sure why it hurts to include it. Certainly some would benefit from learning the basics of how the game works before jumping in. I tend to like to take the tutorials if I'm new to a game, rather than jump right in.

    However, I do get annoyed when tutorials are needlessly long. I want a quick, basic introduction and then that's it. Keep it short!

    With that said, no, I don't have analytic data and so this is purely personal opinion.
     
    jonkuze likes this.
  7. Zaladur

    Zaladur

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    I'm the type of player that hates when numbers are hidden from me. I don't think you have to be overly invasive to the player, but give me some way of accessing the numbers. Diablo 3 did this well, with a basic stats page, detailed stats expander, and numbers detailed upon mouseover. Players who didnt care for the numbers knew fairly quickly what stamina and their main stat did, and had a quick 'dps' number to indicate overall powerchange, even if the number was misleading in certain cases. Meanwhile, any player that wanted insight into the system to plan out more complicated builds or theorycraft was easily able to do it.
     
  8. DallonF

    DallonF

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    ALWAYS explain your game mechanics. Using words to do so should be avoided.

    During the "tutorial" stages of the game, continuously and subtly put your player in a position where the only way to progress is to discover, understand, and exploit a given game mechanic. For an example, play just about any game in the Metroid series.
     
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  9. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    legend-of-zelda-nes-ingame-41383.png

    No tutorial = worst game ever.
     
  10. DallonF

    DallonF

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    No tutorial, eh? I challenge that.

    Your controller has only a D-Pad, Start and Select buttons (which are not emphasized by their physical design), and A and B buttons. Out of those latter two, they are clearly marked on the top of the screen by empty boxes, which you can assume means they don't do anything - yet. The only distinguishable feature on the screen is a small man in green - which you can reasonably assume is you, and can test that theory by pressing the D-Pad, which makes him move, as is conventional for games in this era - and a black spot that sort of looks like a cave.

    There are other paths leading away from this area, but the cave is so prominent that you feel compelled to investigate it. Once inside, an old man gives you a sword, which appears under the "A" box on the top of the screen. Sure enough, if you press A, the small green man swings a sword. (Actually, at this point, he shoots it, which is admittedly a little confusing)

    Not a "tutorial" as we usually think of it, but certainly a guided, instructional experience that made the game better than if you had simply been dumped into the world, already having a sword, and surrounded by enemies.

    Then the game kind of falls apart as you wander around aimlessly, trying to find what you're supposed to be doing, possibly wandering into a dungeon you're not really supposed to visit yet. So yeah, now that I think about it, that game actually could have used a little more guidance...
     
  11. RJ-MacReady

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    The phrase you were searching for was "Intuitive Controls".

    Edit: And "Level Design".

    I always liked the way this video explains it:


    *grumbles*
    *goes back to programming crap while his toddler tries to unplug his computer*
     
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  12. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    I'm curious to know what do you guys think about a video tutorial for a game that verbally and visually introduces the game mechanics in say under 1 to 2 minutes. Video Tutorial would be an option to watch or Skip and go right into the game. What do you think?

    (yes I am asking because I am sort of faced with an issue where I won't be able to add a good interactive in-game tutorial for my game for now, so as an alternative I am thinking about a video intro instead)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2014
  13. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    For something like a fighting game, or really anything that is combo heavy, videos can work as a good demonstrator as they usually are a good way to gauge rhythm, on top of showing what something done correctly will look like. These aren't usually longer than five seconds though.

    The biggest issue is if the amount of things you have told the player before they have tried it out is greater than two, then you have effectively told them nothing, and they probably won't remember any of it.
     
  14. DallonF

    DallonF

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    I would say subtle (Nintendo style) is better than hand-holding (FarmVille style), which is better than a video tutorial, which is better than text instructions, which is better than nothing.
     
  15. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    You mean like an annoying fairy with an annoying sound effect that spits out which keys to press for which actions? :p
     
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  16. RockoDyne

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    Yeah, saying subtle is "nintendo style" kind of requires you to have blacked out during the last two decades worth of games they made.
     
  17. Deleted User

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    You guys know Pixel Dungeon? There are shrines and seeds and you don't know what they do each run through because their color always changes. The only way to know is to use a very rare "Scroll of Identify" or to try the item yourself.
     
  18. DallonF

    DallonF

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    Ok, then, SNES style :) At least for the basic controls. Nintendo is still really good about teaching you new mechanics later in the game subtly. But I'll agree that in most modern Nintendo games, the first hour or so is really heavy-handed, especially in Zelda.
     
  19. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    Even then, I don't think Nintendo was ever exceptionally proficient at subtle teaching. Super Metroid is the only one I can think of that was really good at it. Look at a link to the past and it's already en route to becoming heavy handed, while there are still plenty of points without any rhyme or reason to their solution.
     
  20. jerotas

    jerotas

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    We have some analytics for our soft launch showing that 35% of players are either illiterate or skip our tutorials. And then they're confused that they don't know how to play and quit on the next level not knowing how to beat it. Of course they don't know how to play - they didn't read the tutorials!

    Quite infuriating. There was barely any text on those screens. What to do? If we put in a few of those arrows that tell you where to go (instead of text), and you go there...that doesn't necessarily mean you understand what the heck you just did. So on the next level when there aren't arrows for that thing anymore, they'd be stuck again and quit. Right?

    Not sure how to solve this problem. It's a quite rogue-ish game with some unique gameplay.
     
  21. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Sympathy, man. It's rough going when people just veg out. Unfortunately, as well, that's the norm.

    So what to do, that's the question, right?

    First off, if you haven't already, watch that Megaman X video up top there. In a nutshell, make it so that there is no way to progress through the very beginning of the game without demonstrating a grasp of the fundamentals, disguising this as just another part of the game. Call this the "easy" first area. Once you have designed a really stellar starting portion of the game that demonstrates how to play effectively, you should be able to just throw it in people's hands without explanation and they should be able to pick it up at a higher rate than any written tutorial.

    For example, I'm creating a brawler engine. It will involve blocking attacks, parrying attacks, crouching, etc. So far, it's a lot to design so that tells me it's going to be a lot to comprehend for the player. I have the perfect way of introducing them to the combat mechanics in mind already, by creating enemies that can only be defeated effectively by using different features of the combat system. For example, a small goblin that can only be hit while crouching. A narrow corridor you can only pass by blocking the arrows, etc. I can encourage experimentation through the use of short stage sections at the start, so death is only a minor penalty.

    Best of luck man!
     
  22. jerotas

    jerotas

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    Great feedback. We're past the point of designing levels though unfortunately. And this game doesn't really have "enemies". It's a turn-based puzzle game. I'll keep all this in mind for the next one!
     
  23. Kinos141

    Kinos141

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    If mechanics are not going to be explained, they have to be understood. For example, any gamer of an RPG should know how stats work, so there's no need for an explanation. However, any new stat name for that specific game should be talked about.

    I've played DMC4, beat it and forgot about it... until I saw some video on Youtube for combos that I never even thought of that made me go back and pick it up again to try and be as cool as that guy.
    For instance, Angelo Credo has a move where he threw a spear at the player, I always dodged and counter attacked. But you can catch it, and I didn't know!!
    Start at 1:31
     
  24. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    I'm pretty sure that was something you could actually do with all of the spear throwing enemies. I want to say that move was also shown in a cutscene with one of the first of those spear-chucking angel types. I don't really remember well though, it's been ages.

    I would say most people have a vague suspicion about what a stat does, but I've rarely seen games that illustrate everything their stats do. Anytime luck is a stat chances are people will assume it's used everywhere, but it's not likely to do much.
     
  25. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    I dont like it and tb doesnt like it.

    If you listen to TBS vid on ziggarut he complains about - 1 lack of variety of weapons in rouge likes, bad level design. If you watch TBs video he gives some good commentary about whats bad with roguelikes

    In ziggarut they have little cards that pop-up that tell what you things are (I hate having to play binding of issac and have no idea what any item does -- unless you play the game 100+ times). It also talks about the idea of having a "bad run" where you dont get any good items


     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014