DOOM, are you excited?

Well I agree with you completely. But for some reason there are people out there who like the same game year after year as long as you update the character skins and give them "new" maps.

Also, I can't stand "loud-outs" and "perks". But for some reason those two game features are basically the AAA industry standard now for first-person shooters (at least it seems like it). They kill fun, and are completely meaningless. It's like those World of Warcraft achievements you get for basically logging into the game. All they do is make 12 year olds feel like they're accomplishing something, and that they're special snowflakes.

Anyways, I'm not even sure where I'm going with this, but I really don't like Call of Duty, and I don't like the direction the AAA industry has taken. It seems completely un-original, un-creative, un-inspired, dull, and fun-limiting on many levels. But people buy this stuff anyways. /end rant

 

They probably did. Staff_Size * Salary * Development_time. Definitely over a million usd. If not dozens of them.

They're trying to ride the trend and take it too far. "Those guys were successful, let's do the same thing". This kind of thinking. IMO.

----

I would be very interested to know what the hell were they thinking while making this. I get impression that someone in bethesda is trying very hard to kill the company and does not even understand what people would want.

 

Looks like a Halo 2 clone...? Why specifically copy Halo 2?

 

I wish Id would do something original and creative and just let Doom be done.

 

I find it strange people were hoping for a genuine Doom experience from the multiplayer part? I mean, like it or hate it but that's not the part that was gonna be the "real" Doom anyway.

 

@neginfinity marketing is weird, we know what people in internet want but I doubt it was made for us. It looks more like it was made for 15y console users who don't even know previous games.

Also I think it is pretty good timing if they want to steal Halo players.

 

@neginfinity and @Velo222 you know the really sad part of this is that many players and game devs will probably misread it as "Nobody wants those old style games these days. Just look at the flop that Doom 4 was! There is your proof." Completely missing the point that it captured nothing of the older games and instead captured everything people didn't want from the modern FPS games.

It is possible even Bethesda may come away with that conclusion. It'll be interesting to see if they release a statement along the lines of "Sorry people. We really dropped the ball on this one and completely misunderstood what you wanted."

 

Bethesda is responsible for The Elder Scrolls series.
I'd rather not see them devolve into company that tries to steal players by making mediocre lookalikes, instead of original ideas.

@GarBenjamin: Interesting idea, but I think it is fairly obvious that negative reviews are saying "this is not what doom should be about". It should be fairly hard to misinterpreted this one.

 

Rise of the triad showed you dont need to do much different
http://steamspy.com/app/217140

 

Lol. One would hope. The only reason I think it sits within the realm of possibility is due to so many folks not being able to understand why others enjoy playing the older games and always thinking it is nothing more than nostalgia. If they really can see nothing more than a lack of cinematic effects and hires graphics seems possible to me they miss other obvious things as well. But.... I agree with you it should be very hard to do in this case with so many people are literally spelling it out.

 

This is not Doom in anything but name and theme.

 

Well I'm pretty sure whoever owns the rights decides what is doom and what isn't.

 

Sure, but like hollywood remakes, they make the mistake of changing what it was.

 

You're only pretty sure?

 

Well if I was remaking doom, I'd be brave enough to mostly replicate the original, just with high end graphics, being faithful to the original is important. This new title appears to push it into territory where it is beaten by more experienced titles, losing the traps and hell based nature of the original. I also didn't like the previous doom much either. Give me the retro classic turbo charged, or I may as well just buy a different game TBH.

I won't be buying this one.

 

The sad thing is, after years in development hell they basically ended up with a COD clone and cancelled it (rightly so), then made noise about starting over and going retro with the gameplay, which made it sound like it actually was going to be mostly replicating the original but with better graphics. Somehow they ended up with whatever this is instead, apparently.

--Eric

 

Yep because a producer somewhere feared for his job and bottled it, resorting to safe tropes mastered by CoD and friends, but not even doing that well enough :/

 

With disastrous consequences, that is.
First game establishes fans, and the fans will want specific things after that. So going against expectations is unwise. Doom is a quite old name, but people that played doom are still around, and they have money to spend.

Frankly, previous doom had some of the spirit from original. Not ultra fast shoting part, but it resembled the creepier levels from Doom1/2. You know, with rivers of blood and all.
It tried to be another system shock too hard, though.

 

I think tech (mostly the realtime shadows everywhere) took over the game a little. It always did with id soft games but in this case it kind of changed it a bit too much for me. I still love the hit and run gameplay of classic doom over all that has followed in doom-land.

Quake for me hits the spot of more deliberate gameplay.

 

Lets not give them too much credit... All it shows is that it's an indie developed game made by someone that doesnt have the skillset to create an immersive baloney intro... nothing more.

None of my game trailers show anything other than gameplay... Its not because Im in touch with what the gamers want, its because I have no ability to create anything other than a video of gameplay.

 

Uh, wtf are you guys talking about.

No, it's not really doom, it's quake. It's just a remake of quake with better graphics. Look at the game play the enemies and the way the single player kind of works.

Doom honestly wasn't that good. It had super amazing graphics and was ground breaking, and as much as we want to think back on how great it was - the game play was 90% 'find the key to open the door' and bordered on annoying. The level design on the first level was really solid, but the rest of the game really kind of wasn't all that great. It was just an innovative game at the time.

This is not a game that you can play today, you might be able to forgive the graphics, you might be able to forgive the mechanics, but you won't forgive the level design.

Nostalgia is great and all, and I am also not a fan of the CoD games - but like Doom really wasn't as good as Wolfenstein. It just had better graphics.

 

No it is not nostalgia. The game is actually good. Grab Ultimate doom and try playing it on Ultra-Violence. I got to properly playing Doom 1/2 after I played Q2, Q3 and Halflife 1 - in early 2000s, not when it was just released.

Doom does great job at keeping you constantly busy -> thinking, reacting, etc. There aren't many games that can do the same nowadays. (Painkiller captured that well, though.). Weapon are satisfying. There are a LOT of enemies per screen, significantly more than in most of the modern games (sans dead rising), movement is smooth. It is actually a very good game, and there's more to it than "just graphics". Soundtrack is solid too. While "base" levels are somewhat bland, they start getting better later, when you get to hell areas.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree there.

The point is, this remake is really following the Quake model, which was and has always been considered a superior game. Doom itself just wasn't actually very good, it was just the first of it's kind and wildly innovative. Quake was considered by most, at the time to be a much, much better game - mostly because - it was!

The key aesthetic in Doom is green lava and a small land bridge with badguys shooting at you. We don't really want lava based levels again do we?

 

True. After q3, Carmack or whoever was left in ID apparently concentrated on making amazing technologies. However, something was lost that gave previous ID games more soul, which shows in Q4, Doom 3 and Rage. I think somebody left the studio.

 

The key aesthetic in Doom is rivers of blood, hellish atmosphere and butchered marines on walls. That shows up beyond the first episode.

Quake 1 shows similar atmosphere, with Q2/Q3 being inferior to Doom 1/2. They are better multiplayer games, though, but singleplayer experience is worse. Heretic/Hexen was better. Or Blood.

Also, it was not first one of the kind. Before Doom there was Ultima Underworld. Before Quake 1 there was Descent (with 6dof movement).

While Doom remake is following quake model, I'd say that gameplay-wise it is inferior to Q3.Movement model feels inferior.

 

Romero was the chaos that was needed. You need someone upsetting the apple cart so that people fix his S***, but also learn from it. I don't think that guy functions at his maximum without chains for him to struggle against, so him being so free now may just mean he isn't.

 

Nope, it was indeed that good.

They nailed the gameplay.

Absolutely not.

Yes you can, people do all the time.

It was much better.

Absolutely not. Not at the time, and not now.

--Eric

 

I thought about him, just wasn't sure if that was entirely his achievement or not. Judging by wiki's entry, carmack kicked him out.

Speaking of aesthetics and gameplay...

Aesthically games that are the closest to original Doom 1/2 are Quake 1 and Jericho. They have sorta similar atmosphere. Doom 3 tries to get there, but fails. Painkiller also had very unique atmosphere (the last "hell" level was great), but it is different. Mc Gee's alice (both of them) is also somewhat similar to this.

Gameplay-wise... the closest games would be Painkiller and maybe Red Faction 1. Serious sam and L4D comes to mind, but that ain't quite it.

Doom 3 has most similarities with Bioshock/Systemshock. Atmosphere isn't quite there, but people definitely tried. The worst part of the game (in terms of the atmosphere) was when i found a email written by a demon. It was really silly.

Q2/Q3 are quite bland by themselves, but have good multiplayer play value. The closest games to those would be Unreal Tournament. Aesthetics are not good.

Something like that.

 

Dude. As much as doom was the first - Quake is really the daddy of modern FPS.

Quake does all the same stuff discussed in your link - as does almost every other game ever made. The video you link to basically says "enemies have 3 different kinds of projectiles" (hitscan, slow collision, melee) and then claims that having 3 different attack speeds is the greatest game play innovation of all time.

 

Sorry, no. Quake was criticized on release for being too much of a tech demo and lacking gameplay refinement. Much of the stuff mentioned here about the new Doom—not having many enemies etc.—also applied to Quake. The Quake series eventually focussed on multiplayer, to the point where Quake III was exclusively that, but I'm talking about single player here.

--Eric

 

Understanding the results of several elements combined and the impact that they have, as a sum, on the player is a much harder challenge than you are implying.

 

You're living in a parallel universe. Quake had nearly universal praise, it launched multiplayer FPS and was absolutely insane in terms of its impact on gaming. It still has a 92% on metacritic. Quake was the realization of what Doom hinted at.

That Doom 4 is copying the fast paced feel of Quake makes total sense. They learned from making Doom, and refined it. They removed most of the problems and improved the level design and combat pacing.

I respect Doom greatly, don't get me wrong. Doom was an amazing achievement for sure, and having enemies that attack you in 3+ different ways is a cornerstone upon which most video games need to build on. This is a great "lesson in the basics of game design" but it is not an argument for 'hall of fame, best games in history' kind of stuff.

That said, Doom is really an overrated game, although it was the first and wildly influential, it just wasn't as good as we wish it were. Quake is just a ... better game. That Doom 4 seems to follow in Quake's footsteps doesn't somehow make it trash.

 

@frosted there is little point in arguing about something that is a matter of personal preference.

The fact is this game now has over 11,000 reviews Mostly Negative (with some positive reviews being as simple as "Saved me $60"). Which is saying quite loud & clear that these people do not agree with what you are saying. It doesn't make them right and you wrong or vice-versa. There is no right or wrong for this stuff. If people want a COD or HALO style of game they have a lot of modern day options out there. What these folks are saying is they want a modern day version of the old Doom. Not modern day with configurable weapon sets, slow-ass movement and so forth but modern day as taking advantage of today's hardware to jack up the graphics, jack up the size of the areas (or number of levels, whatever), items and perhaps enemies.

I think this is what people sometimes don't get about these kind of things. People already have a line of COD games and Halo games and whatever else like those that is out there. If they wanted to play that kind of game then they would be playing it. It's not a bad thing just because there are a lot of people who would like to see a true modern day AAA game come out like the 90s FPS. That is all these people want. Just the option to play such a game. And that is the reason for their disappointment when they found out this didn't turn out to be that option after all.

 

I guess I'm just questioning why people think this is a CoD clone - if you compare the footage of Quake 1 to the footage from Doom 4 -- it really looks almost identical.

But I donno, I was never a AAA guy or a FPS guy, so maybe subtleties are lost on me.

 

Based on the videos I watched earlier in the thread it is not so much the looks but the gameplay. I can see some Doom influence in the enemies. The AAA always seem to make nice looking games. I don't know if the looks of a AAA game are ever really an issue. It is the one thing they seem to obsess over. lol

But I am not trying to turn it to that AAA graphics thing. Just saying here it is about the actual game itself. The best way to see the difference is watch a video of a COD or Halo game then watch the New Doom videos earlier in this thread. Then watch the video @neginfinity posted of him playing through the first level of Doom (classic). Which does the New Doom remind you of the most?

 

I say Doom 4 feels more like COD than Quake (most noticable difference being how the movement controller feels, which a video doesn't tell you adequately), because I've played through the complete singleplayer campaigns of: Quake 1, Quake 2, Quake 3 (not a proper campaign but I finished all the bot matches on nightmare), Quake 4, COD MW1, COD WAW, COD MW2, COD BO 1, COD MW3, COD BO2, COD AW. And I also played the multiplayer modes of all of those games except Quake 4. I don't need to look at any potentially misleading footage, I played all those games myself.
I'd be happy if Doom 4 felt like any of the old Quake games, that's what I hoped for actually. I liked all Quake games and I liked them more than Doom 1 or 2. To be honest I only played the old Dooms when they already were retro. My Nostalgia bonus for that era goes to games like Duke Nukem 3D, Shadow Warrior, Blood and Quake.

My main complaint isn't that Doom 4 doesn't feel like Doom 1 or 2, it is that they chose to copy the blandest and most worn out style of multiplayer FPS and then didn't even do a good job copying what good there is in COD-style games.
I wouldn't have complained if they had innovated away from Doom 1 in a unique direction or one that hasn't been explored with this kind of theme. A hardcore realistic military simulation (like ARMA, but not S***) with demons would be something we haven't seen yet. I'd be interested in that. I just don't want any more COD clones, one a year from the original franchise should be more than enough imho.

Rainbow Six Siege is quite awesome. That one has so much innovation that I wouldn't know what game to compare it to. It plays nothing like Counterstrike or COD imho. The ability to blow holes into walls and ceilings is a real gamechanger for multiplayer fps.

 

No

 

difference is quake was new and amazing, while this doom rehash has been seen a thousand times before.

 

Ouch.

I watched the trailer and all I could wonder what percent of dev time was spent on making meat splode vfx. Meh, screw Doom, I'm all about Unreal Tournament.

 

Yes to multiplayer FPS, as I already mentioned. No to the other things; I was actually there reading reviews and Usenet discussions at the time.

Except that's the complaint, that it's not particularly fast-paced like Doom is. Quake is slower.

Yes, it is. We can play it now, we're not basing it on nostalgia.

It's just really not, at all. I've played through Doom + expansions multiple times, and I've played through Quake once. I don't care much about multiplayer.

--Eric

 

Yes. I get the feeling this is what happened somewhere. And I bet there were people from within the industry that wanted it to be that way too.

Well you're right, I would say the characters and "skins" are mostly Halo in nature. The gameplay, to me, seems like a mix of Quake, Halo, and Call of Duty. Mostly Quake though. I also agree with some of the reviewers saying that really the game kind of suffers from an identity crisis. Like the developers couldn't decide if they wanted to go full nostalgia/original gameplay, or modern Halo. So they went inbetween, and in the process the game doesn't do either well.

I have to say though, the fact that they added "loadouts" and "perks" to DOOM makes me want to punch babies in the face.

 

I played a lot of both Doom and Quake. Both games were huge technology breakthroughs at the time, thanks to the sheer brilliance of John Carmack. He is easily one of the best game engine programmers of all time. His programming skills are absolutely massive. From a technology standpoint, Quake was obviously a better engine than Doom, but that was to be expected since it was written after Doom and was designed for newer, more power computer hardware.

But strictly from a gameplay point of view, Doom was a vastly better game than Quake. The gameplay, level design, enemy design, and weapons in Quake all felt like an incohesive mismash compared to Doom. Romero was very active in the gameplay design of the original Doom, and his insights as a game player and as a game designer help turn the original Doom into the masterpiece of gameplay that it was.

The original Doom was literally all of the best arcade gameplay concepts extended into a 3D virtual environment. From a gameplay point of view, the original Doom is a true masterpiece. The new Doom from Bethesda is "Doom in name only", because it somehow missed all of the gameplay elements that made up the original Doom. Doom should not simply be a gore rich version of a Quake clone or CoD clone.

 

Why should I care about "who is the daddy"? Seriously.... It is named "Doom", not "Quake 5".

It plays differently. That's the problem. The point of games it to be played, not to be looked at.

One of the reasons why people compare it to CoD is because of loadouts and multiplayer xp. This stuff has no place in old-school shooter.

Frankly, I remember some of the FPS devs (red orchestra?) discussing CoD and non-CoD, and he said something along the lines that those kind of mechanics are introduced in handicap people that actually have skill.

http://www.pcgamer.com/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/

Yes, that's why I recommend to play it. Original Doom is a great game - even today. Since the time it was released very few games managed to provide comparable gameplay experience.

 

It is a moral question.. i personaly think that they have responsibility to stay true to the spirit of the franchise that they buy, but many people will disagree and say that they own it now and can do whatever they want.

 

I think the whining how "COD has ruined a generation of FPS players" in that interview is exaggerated, when you look at steamcharts and see that the currently most popular COD has a 30 day average of 10,340.2 players and CS:GO has a 30 day average of 388,866.3 players. Thats more than 30 times as many as COD. And CS:GO has got to be one of the highest skillcap shooters on the market. Not even the recoil patterns of weapons are random, those can be learned and compensated. They did much to raise the skillcap and the game is sooo much more popular than COD. CS:GO has over a million reviews on steam with 93% positive ratings. Black Ops 3 is at 58%.

I haven't played Red Orchestra but I guess their main problem isn't that bad or average FPS players prefer COD, it is that most good FPS players play CS:GO and nothing else. I've got 2 friends who are hardcore CS:GO competitive players on "global elite" skillgroup level, and I can't get them to play any other shooter with me. There just isn't any interest because they like CS:GO, they are good at it, and it's pretty much the only shooter with a big competitive scene. It is also complex, and hard enough to master, to apparently not get boring after you've played 1000 or 2000 hours of it.

 

Absolutely!

 

Hmm. Interesting.

You know, I actually never played counterstrike, because I sorta hate team-based multiplayer shooters.

Also, you guys pretty much convinced me to record doom I gameplay and post it to youtube. I wanted to do it for a while, never got to it. If only I could convince youtube that my videos have full 0..255 color range, that would've been great.

 

The Doom 4 beta is multi player only. Doom didn't even have multi player!

That they did stuff like XP and loadouts seems like bad decisions, but its a friggin beta the whole point of beta is to test stuff out and fix it. Given the player feedback to some of these decisions there's a pretty good chance that they can fix it.

I think this is a classic example of gamer overreaction forming a lynch mob and hanging a game pre-maturely.

 

I'm starting to get the impression that you're not familiar with the original game.

Original doom had multiplayer. I played it.
2..4 people simultaneously. coop and deathmatch.
I also played doom II cooperatively on either win98 or on win95.

The point of beta is that features like loadouts are frozen and will make it into the game anyway, maybe with minor tweaks.. Scrapping loadouts/xp can realistically happen at some sort of prototyping/pre-alpha phase. it is not an early access game. They will not redesign their game and remodel the levels based on feedback. (I'd be extremely surprised if they did that). The game is scheduled to be released at may 13th, keep that in mind. That's only three weeks from now.

The player feedback is that "it is not doom". Good luck fixing something like this.

I'd also advise to chill, even if you feel stronlgy about the new game for some reason. This is unity community forums and not a steam community forums..

 

Fair enough, last time I played doom seriously was in the 90s. I took a look at it again a few years ago and got bored in about 10 minutes, finding keys wasnt fun.

Different games have different beta periods, IIRC, diablo went through major changes during beta in terms of how skills and progression worked.