Do you need a Degree in Computer Science to create a game or get a Programming Job?

Wordpress and Joomla are targets mainly due to their prolific usage and people writing vulnerable plugins.

My CMS has no such vulnerabilities. Download test and try, if you like. The cms has it's own documentation. It's pretty fool proof

 

I never did any maths stuff for my degree...

dont think maths stuff is that important to general software dev. Games a bit more, but the main maths ive encountered has been trig.

 

what kind of degree did you do?

what do you do now as a living?

 

Thank you this is the most motivating post here. Never would have thought someone can accomplish this much without any kind of technical degree this really does show anything can be done with a little hard work and dedication.

 

Having employed plenty of software engineers over the last 30 years for me experience and dedication plus did the candidate do it as a hobby always trumped a degree in CS. I found most people that went into programming via a degree were usually less passionate and skilled than a bedroom programmer knocking out code. in tact all of my senior engineers were from other professions like physics and electronics type backgrounds.
Most big companies have a HR department that you have to get though to get an interview and this is where a degree will come in handy as they usually don't know anything about our craft and filter people out without a degree. BUT if you are a skilled coder with a track record and experience with no degree and can actually get an interview with the department that is actually going to be using you then the degree will be less of an asset.

 

For artists a degree is even less valuable because it is much easier to judge how good an artist is by just looking at his portfolio.

That situation would make me uncomfortable on two levels.

 

My good sir thank you for taking your time out to post this well detailed explanation and experience you have acquired over the years. It is good to know you have confirmed what my uncle told me, I have all the resources I need, books, Visual Studio, a gaming PC and the internet. From reading your post it is apparent to me now that I am doing just fine with my current Degree and that some good hands on experience is most valuable.

Time for me to get cracking in visual studio and learn my programming, its a good thing I consulted you guys. I swear you bunch are the most honest and motivating people I ever met on the internet. lol

 

Bachelor of Computing Systems (NZ)

Senior Software Engineer. Currently working with Airforce working on their flight sims (full immersion - none of that vr rubbish - although that would be kind of cool)

 

As far as web-site development goes, I personally don't have any problem using an existing CMS. While it is true that these can be vulnerable to hacking, the truth is that any and all CMS systems are vulnerable to hacking. It's just a matter of how determined the hacker is. The point of anti-hacking measures for the web are simply to discourage more casual hackers. Against a determined, aggressive attack, there is a limited amount that you can do. It is the danger of having a site that is user-facing.

That said, you aren't going to be targeted for aggressive hacking unless your site is just crazy-popular. Which is generally a good problem to have. For most users, you shouldn't be afraid of using a popular CMS like Joomla, Drupal, or Wordpress. I've gone both routes. One of my project websites is currently using Wordpress. But my personal portfolio site is using a rudimentary custom CMS that I wrote myself. My personal site has never been hacked, while my project site has. (it used to use Drupal, which was its CMS when it got hacked)

One of the important things to do with CMS systems is simply to be attentive. The major CMS software packages get regular updates to address any security holes that are discovered. Updating your site's CMS software on a regular basis is one of the best way to shore up those security vulnerabilities. When my project Drupal site got hacked, I was using a significantly out-of-date version of the software. (my hosting company made the upgrade process difficult, and I hadn't figured out how to upgrade it regularly at that time)

I would recommend Wordpress for a beginning web developer. It is a little simpler than some of the other CMS systems. This can also make it more limited, but when you're starting out learning is more important than advanced functionality. Simple can be an advantage under those circumstances.

 

wow that is really impressive dude.

So you see look how I found out the truth after all, even as those guys on dream in code forums told me being a software developer is pointless without a CS degree, you guys have proved these people wrong.

It looks like IDE, languages and game engines today has made sure one no longer needs a CS Degree to develop software. I swear the amount of discouragement from some people who insist on a CS degree you would think we are still programming in assembly.

Well I am greatful to you guys for clearing this stuff up, now I can just finish off my computing information systems degree and get cracking with my programming, its really exciting now.

 

That is not entirely accurate. The internet and other sources have made it possible to gain this knowledge without necessarily needing to get it from school. You still need the knowledge, skills and experience to develop software (games). Its just that there are other ways to obtain it. Folks who don't have the engineering knowledge and are only capable of using engines/IDEs are a dime a dozen, that won't get you a job.

 

also, while experience is important, if two candidates have equal experience, the one with the degree is more likely to be picked.

 

It's also worth noting that building up experience and a portfolio typically takes about as long as a degree. So avoiding a degree is not really a short cut, just an alternate route.

It's also important that this is not an either either scenario. You can, and should, build real world experience and portfolio items while you do your degree.

 

Translation: Stop reading forums all day and start churning out software

 

Hey there!

Genuine knowledge and experience is much more valuable than a degree in CS. I've been absolutely stunned at the low quality programmers some of these schools shoot out to the point in which the degree is meaningless. I am pursuing a Applied Computational Mathmatics degree, which I see as a better option because:

1) It's industry agnostic
2) Math is an integral(hehe) part of a good programmers skill set
3) Math is logic, logic is problem solving, problem solving is success in any setting.
4) I have a passion for math

However, I've worked professionally(now part time) for two years and built my portfolio for three more years prior to that. This is my fifth year of programming and I have half a dozen portfolio pieces that show my experience. You can get into programming professionally without a degree, but it'll take about the same time. It's really all down to your situation. Are you motivated to teach yourself? Do you have the time? Do you have prior math skills?

While I am placing an emphasis on math, it is possible to do it professionally with a trigonometry limited knowledge, but in order to take it to the next level(simulations, some shaders, lower level functionality), you will need a more advanced background.

All of the skills needed can be self taught without a degree, but are willing to take that path? Most aren't.

 

I'd agree maths would be most useful. What I know about it fits on an unfolded napkin. Fortunately it's possible to cram the bits of linear algebra you should know for 3D on an unfolded napkin, and quickly go over a few other important things in the last corner.

 

My first job interview:

-get asked random java facts that don't really affect programming
-get asked to stare at 4 lines of 30 characters each and label the differences between them (50 times)
-get asked about java 5 questions because this job is actually about maintaining cutting edge software... from a few decades ago
-leave job interview

My second job interview:

-talk to the boss for a few seconds about what skills I have
-design something in front of the boss
-demonstrate sufficience, get hired

Might help you, won't hurt you (besides financially). If you have skills and find the right interview you'll get hired after demonstrating your skills. I have only those interviews for experience, but I doubt my second interview is normal.

That was certainly the case for my second interview. I made something small during the interview and also had something prepared on my phone to show off. Being relevant is good if your company wants to be relevant. My first job wanted to hire people with outdated knowledge to maintain their legacy systems. Before january 12th, my job wanted hack-ish and inefficient / sloppy solutions that supported internet explorer 8 - which cost us development time since modern browsers make web development a lot easier.

Learn more about the company. Make sure relevance is something they're interested in if you're considering relying on your own skill instead of a degree.

 

Maybe as a programmer.

 

I don't have a degree. I make games.

 

Not sure about getting a job, but programming, definitely not. I have no qualifications and I get on fine

 

So i got a past exam paper from the school offering the so called "computer science" degree with no Math. Here are some the questions asked, let me know what you guys think about these questions for a final Bsc CS degree. The person who sent me it told me there are many other tests but this is an idea of what is expected

How does this look to you guys? challenging? or not?

http://www.filedropper.com/food-coursework-3

And this one is alink to the module on the university website describing what it is.

http://homepages.herts.ac.uk/~bsc-cs/dmd/6com0277.pdf

Can someone give me a run down on what exactly this is supposed to be? Is OOD / OOP a part of computer science or software engineering? and is it a substitute for algorithms or something totally different?

 

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Most of the maths in computer sciences you'll ever do is SQL Algebra, calculating which objects get inherited from their parents (VTable) or making algorithms to make the app work.

Consider 3d apps are totally different from business apps. You'll rarely touch 3d in 2d form-fill apps. Most of the maths in 2D form-filling apps are SUM, AVG (average) and making lists.

Getting a computer science degree is not all about learning maths. It is theory of presenting, storing, accessing and retrieving data.

OOP is a programing language model. There is functional programming model, dynamic programming model, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

What you learn are skills so that, whatever the next fad (currently NodeJS + Angular), next set of technology (VR, geolocation games), you'll be ready for it as you know foundational concepts.

 

Not sure I agree with this. For starters, Math != logic. Math can involve logic, and solving certain problems with math requires logic. But math by itself is more about representing quantities and their relations through intellectual abstraction.

Logic and problem solving come into play in certain branches of Math. Advanced Calculus isn't going to teach you anything about problem solving. It's really useful for calculating the area under a curve, but that's not problem solving. That's just a mechanical process. Figuring out how to make those calculations in the first place is problem solving. Most academic math courses just teach you the mechanical procedures, and don't bother to encourage original problem solving.

But certain branches of math provide a bit more exposure to problem solving and logic. Basic algebra is littered with the essentials of most programming languages. And geometry usually exposes students to geometric proofs, which are basically logic puzzles using mathematical rules.

Problem solving does not lead to success in any setting. But it is an extremely valuable skill, and is instrumental to success in programming in particular. Mechanical, cut-and-paste programming is possible, but it's boring and unfulfilling. Problem-solving programming can provide enormous catharsis for those with a taste for the discipline.

Math is very valuable for a programmer, but it is not essential. Problem solving is. Problem solving allows a programmer to not only create original work, but to enjoy their profession. If you enjoy problem solving, there is a future for you in programming.

Learn math as well if you can. While it is not strictly required, it is a valuable tool. This is especially true if you start working on visualization projects, and need to perform complex calculations.

 

Thanks guys so what do you think about this piece of the exam paper?

http://www.filedropper.com/food-coursework-3

These are a few questions that normally come. Does this look like your standard final year BSc CS or Software Engineering questions? is it up to that standard? what you think about the programming question? asking to rewrite it in Java etc?

I would assume so since Uni of Hertfordshire is a 76th ranking university in the UK. Let me know what you guys think.

 

There is so much competition for programming jobs these days, do yourself a favor and get a bachelor's degree in computer science, math or something related to science... something nerdy and while you're in school, work someplace... even if it's for free.

Even entry level jobs require experience and an education and HR pretty much won't hire somebody who doesn't sound like "Matt has a B.S. in <being a nerd> and he's got 2-5 years experience".

If you really want to know the truth... they want unmarried, cisgender, young white/asian males who have a docile nature and can be depended upon to work long hours and who can conform to the company culture without questioning anything. They prefer people who will dedicate their lives to the job and will do things for "experience" and "a learning opportunity" and "a chance to work for a growing/dynamic/fortune 500/top company".

Truth is... you just need to build up enough skills and experience, while putting up with a lot of BS, long enough to gain the skills and experience that will let you choose where you want to work and negotiate your own pay.

But all of it is for naught unless you have at least a bachelor's.

 

I have no degree. I'm celebrating my 15th year at my current company today. You don't need a degree, you need a chance, and then you need to make everybody realize that it was worth giving you a chance.

15 years and 3 months ago I made a choice to take a very low paid job as a programmer rather than a relatively high paid job as a salesman at circut city...

 

So much 100% this right here, yo.

I remember a lead programmer once giving me the most concerned of looks because I told him I didn't know binary mathematics. "You're gonna want to learn that." Is what he said right after. At the time I was thinking something along the lines of "Sure, I don't know this right now, but in 15 minutes I can pull up some answers on google and figure that all out for you." I was full of crap, of course. Binary mathematics are a very important basic of game development, it's just something you don't see often in Unity because all of those in-depth calculations are taking place in the background.

I've been developing the same game for almost four years now. Bit off way more than I could chew, but somehow I've survived to the point where we're actually about to finish. At no point have I found an issue (and there have been many) that couldn't be solved by either 1)looking it up on google. Works 95% of the time. 2)Searching Unity Answers/Stack Overflow and other related coding hubs for similar issues. 3) Hound one of the poor fellows on the forum who knows a thing or two about what I'm doing.

Of course that's only really helpful when you're the one with the reigns. In an actual programmer position at a big company, they're going to want to know that you're diverse enough to handle issues with *their* engine and code.

 

I actually conduct a lot of interviews. I'm not a big fan of the first approach though sometimes what I need to do is a purely technical interview. Most of my interviews are via phone and I have another colleague that conducts them with me. We only ask a few purely technical questions. Other than that, we ask architectural questions. Generalities and concepts and just let the interviewees talk us through their experience and how they have and would apply such things. We also spend a lot of time talking about hobbies and development that candidates do outside of the daily grind. We want to know what avenues they take to learn, how passionate they are, what they are passionate about including things other than development and we want to know what their general personality is like and that they understand the concepts and have a proclivity for learning. We don't care if they know who the four horsemen are or can rattle off technical names as long as they know the concepts. We are also a consulting firm so there are a lot of things just as important as technical ability.

And, I know I replied to this thread before, but I don't have a degree and I have a manager consulting position with good pay and benefits. But, it took a lot more work to get here and gain experience because without a degree it was 100% on me to prove myself and gain experience. It completely depends on the individual.

 

Yes programming is competitive and saturated so is civil engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering even accounting and the list goes on I know a lot of engineering grads who are unemployed especially with the recent oil recession. If one sits here and worries about how bad the world is you will reach nowhere.

You talk about entry level jobs require experience, this is why my country has an on the job training program where the government pays half your salary and the employer pays half. Also besides that, programming is such that you can create a CMS, or some mobile store app and that in itself is experience especially if its downloaded and used by a lot of people and has a high star rating. IT is the only field where you can accept a free lance job for free just to gain experience from your bed room.

unmarried? well anyone can claim they are single. Even though I am single in reality anyways.

To be honest I will take my chances with going after this degree and learning programming, even IF things don't work out, in 3 years my 200 coconut palms I currently have set down, will be ready to produce as I own 1.5 Acre of Land. So what the heck I got nothing to lose so i am going after this field. Before I planted it my uncle begged me to do it, I told him if I plant it what if people could just come and steal it, he said if I sit down and worry about "what if" I will never have anything in life, so I bought this and attached a Steel blade to it then after 1 month I cut down 1.5 acres of Jungle and some tall trees.

So I no longer accept negativity, life is about luck I realize. You got to take chances in life if you wanna reach somewhere.

Cisgender? not sure what the hell is that but thank god my country its not an issue. There are some positives about the 3rd world as we don't suffer from the amount of political correctness as Europe and other places.

And people party a lot here, most of the workforce wants nothing to do with programming so I am in luck as there is a shortage of programmers.

 

cisgender is merely another label or classification. I hate labels so I don't agree with it as I prefer we are all described as human, not pushed into separation by labels. But we're going very offtopic here

 

Cisgender isn't a "politically correct" term. It is essentially the opposite of "transgender". In other words, a cisgender person is someone who identifies in gender matching their biological sex. I think he was trying to say that big corporations don't hire anyone outside the white/asian non-queer "normal" people.

But from the sound of your comment it would seem that you would rather cisgender be a requirement, and not the other way around. That way no one has to deal with that nasty inclusiveness these so-called "first-world" countries talk about.

Not a fan of the ridiculous human need to compartmentalize everything in existence, but there you have it.

 

Still kind of on topic so I'll bite I think one of the primary problems of gay pride is there is such a thing as too much pride, to the point where it isolates people, I'd rather gender identification be something available on request, I mean do we really need to know? All I know is my friends and family are a mix of all sorts and I love the variety. I don't really want to label (and labelling means judgement since you have to judge what label they fit under).

This is a problem in the workplace. Fact is, Simian Squared's primary modus operandi is diversity. I want the different things. I want those celebrated but not judged or labelled... instead it is normal, it is acceptance in the true form, and I think this is quite hard for a lot of companies to understand it seems.

 

Speaking of this off topic topic, will unity support HumanOS when transhumanism is more popular?

Is a cis-jellybean a jellybean that tastes like the flavor you would expect? Is a trans-jellybean a jellybean that is green but tastes like an orange?

Not to mention they isolate themselves, because who else has gender orientation based pride? I think the rest of the human race just takes their attraction for granted

But even people under the same label are so different. Maybe normal isn't the best word when we're all so different

 

Normal as in we are the same species. Hopefully one day we'll understand each other though.

 

Not exactly, a trans-jellybean would be an orange jellybean that tastes like purple! "Zey know I like ze Orange but zey give me ze purple!" - poor Gunther Herman could never get the color juice he wanted from the vending machine in Deus Ex.

I personally have very little patience for the extremes of political correctness. Like many things, moderation is key. I don't want people to walk on egg-shells around me, that's no fun for anyone.

At some point I guess we'll all have to develop a sense of humor .

 

Yeah although there has been somewhat horrific abuse of rights for some people, but recognising things have changed and are changing is key to staying relevant so extremism can harm acceptance in and out of the work place.

So the topic should really be named: do you need a degree in computer science and a tolerant employer?

 

I nearly agree with you. However, you seem to have read that logic = math. Which I agree is not true. That said, math *is absolutely logic*. Your example of Calculus not being problem solving seems to imply that, which full respect, your course was lacking. All areas of math include a plethora of logic. Your approach of "plugging number into equations" shows that you took a course of application and not understanding. Part of math is fully understanding the equation and it's origins in logic.

I also agree that math is not needed to be a programmer. But it is to be a well-rounded one that can handle low level topics. While often we can get away with never touching the insides of a Quaternion, it's a valuable skill to be able to understand the logic behind them in order to fully understand their use. (We had a programmer a while back that was relying on Quaternions being commutative in multiplication and he spent ages trying to find the bug.) While math may not be needed, it is extremely useful and arguably the easiest way to improve your logical thinking.

TLDR: Math = Logic. Logic != Math.

 

Short of my being executed for my politically incorrect ramblings, yes, developing a sense of humor is a fine solution.

I support taking rights away from people who would try to take rights away from and or abuse groups of people for no sound reason.

You might not need a degree if you have an amazing body of work already, but a tolerant employer is a must. Otherwise people will go out of their way to harass your business - cue subtle reference to gay cake.

 

This is a valid point. However its worth noting that while this route can be lucrative, it also tends to be short lived.

 

I don't know. It takes all kinds.

 

Well it seems that I was understanding his comment as the opposite of what he meant. Well I can see this being an issue, if corporations only hire gay white/asians well this could be an issue. Maybe, maybe not. I worked American Airlines in the past here in the Caribbean and I did notice only a specific kind of people were hired.

These people were good looking fair skin young men and women. I tried to get hired BUT I was Fat and straight, and this did pose an issue in me being employed. A guy who was working in servisair which is the contractor he got a job in AA over everyone else. And guess what? he was Gay and slim.

So I can relate to the cisgender thing now. But quite honestly I don't see this being an issue, programmers here are hard to find and good ones almost impossible. I am 30 years old so look if I live 30 more I would be lucky. In about 3 to 4 decades I won't have to worry about any of these issues and neither would most of us on this forum.

 

Math + Logic = Magic

 

Stop kidding the OP, without a real CS degree they will be limited to a tech support job running turnkey SW and lucky to get that. And they can forget the really interesting IR&D jobs with such a degree.

Just asking the question means the OP probably shouldn't try to get a degree as they are hard work for most people. That's a different question though.

At any rate, why even ask us? You haven't got a degree and so all you need to do is look for and apply for IT jobs without a degree. It's they that are hiring, not us commenters in the forum. I remember applying for jobs starting a age 10 and not getting even a good one til age 15...just picking oranges, baling hay, and cutting tobacco hardly the type work they ask for a degree for. You may be in a for a bit of a wait before you get a job without a degree.

 

Woah there, calm down. There are plenty of degree-less professionals in the games industry. The vast majority(and all sane) job opening mention having a degree *or equivalent experience*. So yes, it'll take a while to find a job because OP needs to gain the skills of a 4 year degree. But a degree is us

 

This is probably the best advice on this thread. Want a game job but don't want a degree? Go out and apply for the jobs. After a month or two getting feedback you will know.

 

If you made a terrain system that was better than witcher 3 and enabled staff to do twice as much work in the same amount of time I'd imagine the door would be fairly open.

Right now, people are innovating in a lot of different areas.

 

Indeed. And I am a long time professional, don't have a degree and do hiring. To be honest, at least for us, a degree has no bearing either way when it comes to hiring, at least for development roles.

 

Some of the things we look for, which has nothing to do with their educational backgrounds:

• Code quality / Database quality / State machine quality / Animation quality
  The code you make must be of good quality.
  It takes long time to become proficient and longer to write good quality code.
  
  
• Amplitude or grit.
  Ability to learn new things quickly and make use of it.
  
  
• Reading other people's code.
  LEARN to READ other people's code.
  If you don't want to read other people's code, good luck, you'll need it.
  
  
• Failing to meet deadlines due to inability to code. (See code quality)
  Learn to meet short deadlines.

• Live technical support.
  You code live, in front of supervisor or customer.
  Customer has a bug, so you make code immediately to fix bug and release patch for customer.
  If you can't fix bugs in timely manner, being a developer is not for you.
  

 

Sure enough I had emailed infotech caribbean and just made up a story about how I can build apps and I am good at programming and I could do what they are asking. But I don't have a degree, I asked if the degree is an issue the people kept trying to contact me to come in for an interview. You know when I went back and read the description of the job offering nowhere did it say you need to have a degree?

Look the add is here

http://www.caribbeanjobs.com/Software-Mobile-App-Developer-Job-64272.aspx

no where does it say Degree so these people are a lot like you when it comes to hiring.

I asked the woman would not having an degree be an issue? she said a degree isn't even a requirement and they don't see the need for a degree they want to see experience, what I could actually build that would be of value to them. It may explain why universities here advertise degrees with 50% less theory work now and 50% more practical, they say its designed with advice from companies locally.

So you tell me why would local companies tell a university to get rid of theory work all the fancy maths and replace it all with real world practical programming projects? Has to be because you are right theory means little unless you are into research or something like that.

 

For all intends and purposes a CIS degree is a CS degree so you're not be cute trying to split hairs to deny the crux of the OP's question:

Do they need a technical degree of some IT field from an accredited institute of higher learning to have a good chance at getting a IT programming job of any higher complexity? Yes.

And I know you didn't read my response because I told him yes you can get you jobs using turnkey SW solutions like you and your EE friend do but that's like the difference between fill in the blank quiz and writing on the level of Shakespeare.