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Church Music Asset - FEEDBACK NEEDED!

Discussion in 'Works In Progress - Archive' started by Marma, May 26, 2015.

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Are you interested in a Church/Sacred Music Asset for your video game?

  1. Of course not! Have you ever heard of a game that takes place in a setting as boring as a church!?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Maybe, if in my game the player enters a church, it would be nice to have church music playing...

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Depends on the price, the contents of the Asset... I have specific requirements in mind!

    5 vote(s)
    83.3%
  4. Definitely! I'm planning to work on a game that will be set in a sacred and religious atmosphere!

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Marma

    Marma

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    Hi Unity Devs!
    I'm preparing a "Church Music" Asset for the Unity Asset Store. I'm roughly half way through composing this but I wanted your feedback to know if you would like to see something specific in this Asset or if you had any ideas as to what kind of music you would like to hear in this Asset once it's in the Asset Store! :)

    All of the soundtracks included in this pack will be randomly generated so the player will have the impression of hearing a new piece every time he/she plays the level or enters a church in your game! :cool:

    It will also include a script that automatically changes the volume of the soundtrack according to the player's distance to a game object.

    For now, it includes the following:

    - Two "baroque like" solo cello soundtracks: one in major, one in minor.
    - Two "baroque like" church organ soundtracks: one in major, one in minor.
    - Two "medieval like" church organ soundtracks: one in major, one in minor.
    - Medieval Gregorian chant
    - Two "baroque like" choirs: one in major, one in minor.

    The distinction between "medieval" and "baroque" is an important one: the composition techniques were completely different between roughly 800 AC and 1500 AC (medieval) and from 1500 AC to 1700 AC (early renaissance - baroque). If your game is set in the Medieval Ages, (if you care about historical accuracy of course), then you should only use the Gregorian chant and the Medieval like church organs (which are also included in my Authentic Early Medieval Ages Audio Pack). ;)

    Finally, the general philosophy I tried to apply to this Asset is to ensure that the music is as "realistic" as possible. No crazy effects, no instruments or composition techniques that you wouldn't find in traditional church/sacred music... But perhaps you don't care at all? :p

    So, what do you think? Do you have any suggestions? Is there something missing that you would like me to compose for this Asset?

     
  2. hopeful

    hopeful

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    My impression is that it probably works best in either small doses or as low background or locational music. Because if you listen to it for more than a few seconds at a time it seems aimless (to me at least).

    Audio-wise, the sound is very good, and it gives an authentic vibe if you're trying to represent a particular epoch. :)
     
  3. Marma

    Marma

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    Hmmm, so what if I include in the pack the "random" soundtracks and also precomposed soundtracks that do have an aim? Perhaps that would be better? It is true that making "random" music is very difficult, especially if you have to give it an "aim"... But for the "baroque" style, it works not too badly since the musical phrases aren't so much "themes" as they are motifs, arpeggios, etc... ;)
     
  4. hopeful

    hopeful

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    I wonder if it would help any if you could program the music to come to a proper conclusion? If the music could aim for conclusions now and then, it might help.

    As for including pre-composed music, that's up to you. It could be along the lines of how composers typically include fade versions along with looping versions of the music (with the random here being the looping), and that can be helpful.

    Or maybe there's something that can be done along the lines of setting a random seed so that a specific piece is played, and/or maybe have some other sort of ways of customizing the music, like adjusting the types of instrumentation, the mood, or something.

    One nice thing about using a single random seed, by the way, is that in a multiplayer environment the server can pass the same seed to all players and they will all generate the same result. In this case, they'd all hear the same selection of music. A technique like that could allow for awesome compression of music resources for a networked game, as they'd take up virtually zero space in memory and at the same time be sharable and infinite.

    One more thing: a lot of the game music controllers / generators in the store have settings for different levels on the spectrum of ambient - action. I wonder if that can be applied here?
     
  5. Marma

    Marma

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    Hmmm, I see!
    Well, it's easy enough to share the randomly generated integer, you can just set it as "public" or feed the script with a randomly generated integer from a server and then indeed all the players would hear the same music.

    I also understand what you mean about the conclusion. It's true that this script can run forever and that might be a bit confusing.

    I can include something like 4 different "ending" samples for each soundtrack and then set them to play after X number of randomly generated samples have played thereby bringing the soundtrack to an end and reinitialising. Also, I could create a "Master" script that randomly chooses between the different soundtracks so that you can have a 2 minutes "organ" music in major, then "choirs", then "cello" etc so that it sounds like an actual concert of sorts... :D

    As for the mood and changing the music according to ambient - action, I'm implementing that in my other assets, both the ones that are already released and the upcoming "battle extension" to the Medieval pack, but I'm kind of at a loss how it would work for church music... :p I don't really see how these soundtracks could adapt to "action" really... sing louder? Faster? Harder? Stronger? :confused: Just kidding... No but seriously, if you have an idea, let me know!

    I already included "major" vs "minor" modes so that the developer can choose if he wants a "lighter" joyful mood or more "requiem mass" kind of music... :)
     
  6. hopeful

    hopeful

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    The division into major and minor is a fair example of manipulating the mood. I can envision a scene, for example, where the major mode is playing and then an event occurs and the music fades, then returns in minor mode, indicating a negative change of fortune. That might be an interesting use.

    As for scripted conclusions ... you can try it, but I'm not sure it will be satisfying. If the random music is heavily used by a game, players may come to recognize that the wandering music eventually comes to the same small set of conclusions. Probably it is sufficient to gracefully fade in/out, with a moment of silence in between.

    If it is possible - without a ton of trouble - to have an algorithmic way of generating conclusions, that might be the ultimate solution. For that to happen, you'll have to change your approach to random generation, where instead of eternally transitioning from one bit to another in a chain, you'd algorithmically compose the beginning, middle, and end of a piece all at the same time, so that one part can refer to another part, then let it play out.

    If that can be done, it might give a few other parameters for devs to tinker with, like length of piece or complexity. But I can also see where it might be too difficult an algorithm and not worth messing with.

    As for moods that go from ambient to action ... maybe "action" is too far a reach for church music? However, it might be that it could stretch from ambient to tension to dramatic. Ambient would be quiet, steady, relatively simple, and slow, like a Gregorian chant. Tension could be steady, but faster, a bit more complex, with slightly variable volume, like the low chanting in O Fortuna (Carmina Burana). Dramatic could be a more variable or punctuated volume and tempo (as in O Fortuna or Messiah), and maybe with a wider range of notes (like in the opening to Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, or Hallelujah chorus). Or something like that.

    Or course, in the process of trying to make it into game music, you may wind up steering away from the completely authentic experience of meditative medieval / early baroque music, so it's your call.

    I think what you've got right now is fine, but maybe with limited use cases. So it's just a matter of what you want to try in an attempt to extend its usefulness.
     
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  7. Marma

    Marma

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    Wow! Thanks for the awesome advice!
    So, about endings, yeah, I agree that having about 4 endings will at some point sound "familiar" to players, but since the random soundtrack generator chooses between 16 precomposed samples, even the pieces themselves will start sounding "familiar"... That is unavoidable unless you actually create an algorithm that composes music on the fly, but so far I have not heard an algorithm that could replace a composer and sound really convincing... Usually, you can tell that it's just a bunch of arpeggios on some predetermined chord structures. :rolleyes:

    The advantage of the system with 16 samples and 4 endings is that in total, they may be about 5 minutes in length, but since their order will be random and the ending will not always be the same, it will always be more interesting to listen to than a 5 minutes fixed composition... That is why I chose this system. Also, thankfully, in baroque music, many endings sound the same anyways! :D

    About the more complex algorithm you refer to, I have thought about creating something along these lines but with orchestral music for a fantasy game. Since there are so much more possibilities (number of instruments, composition style) for that type of music, a more complex algorithm can be useful to manage it all. My algorithm in the Authentic Early Medieval Ages Audio Pack actually works a bit like that! It's based on precomposed song structures with beginning, middle end, and with randomly selected samples that play inside these structures. :cool:

    I'll also think about your suggestion for the variations in mood. Maybe I'll compose a dedicated set of samples for church organ that do just that: starting very slow and soft with slow melodies, something at medium tension and something very fast paced and crazy. Perhaps 8 samples of each mood and a script to transition from one to the other! ;)
     
  8. Marma

    Marma

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    Hi Hopeful!
    So here is my first attempt at making dynamic church organ music! What do you think?
    It basically starts in major with very long musical phrases (about 15 seconds each), then moves to natural minor with still relatively long notes, and finally, goes to harmonic minor and faster melodies. The intensity/volume also increases between the three moods. ;)



    Hopeful(ly) you'll like it! :p
     
  9. hopeful

    hopeful

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    Maybe the soft part can be even softer, and the medium have more emphasis ... or at least something to more firmly divide the two. IMO, soft and medium are currently a little too close.

    Strong is a very nice setting. But I wonder if there is a level even higher, more emphatic ...? :)
     
  10. Marma

    Marma

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    Oki dokiiiiii!
    How about this then? ;)
     
  11. hopeful

    hopeful

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    LOL ... Apocalypse! :)

    You're doing a good job on it. Maybe the steps in volume can probably be dropped a hair. Apocalypse should have more variable volume, I think, and not be consistently loud ... if that's possible.

    I could also go for an even slower, more meditative Soft setting. Longer notes or whatever.

    But I think this is a good way to go, in general, in that a person making a game needs music for various situations (title, credits, character creation, at market, idle, exploration, stealth / tension, combat, final battle, villain music, aftermath, festival, sacred, unholy, remembering / regret, and so on), and you're giving them more room to tweak the generator to get different moods.

    For what it's worth, one of the ways in which I sort my game music is to pick out pieces that I call "badass" ... pieces that can accompany either villainous activity or fierce heroic action. I think the Apocalypse mode fits the definition of badass, and I look forward to a minor choral version of it, and/or mixed chorus and organ, if that's on the list of things to do. :)
     
  12. Marma

    Marma

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    Thanks! Great! I'll compose more "variable" intensity for the last samples to create more dramatic effect.
    As far as the soft setting, it's already pretty long notes so I think I'll stick to this, especially if I want to make it randomized...
    A transition can only occur after a musical phrase is over so that means in this case, already 15 seconds if the trigger to go the medium tension is activated right after the start of a soft mood sample... That's already quite a lot, considering all that can happen in a game.

    As for the choir, I would love to do it, but honestly, you wouldn't believe how long it takes to tweak a virtual choir to make it sound realistic.... :p So I'll probably release the asset, and if it is popular and many people ask for it... I will do it! :D
     
  13. hopeful

    hopeful

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    Well ... probably I wouldn't let it play all the way out. 15 seconds IS a long time. Either I'd restrict the Soft music to non-combat areas in the game, or I'd fade it out when enemies appear and fade in some Medium Tension music.

    Anyway, good luck with your release! Maybe you can sell it with the idea of demons as well as churches, to help position it for Diablo type games as well as medieval RPG type games.
     
  14. Marma

    Marma

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    Ahaaaa good idea! I'll try to create some demonic type music as well! That should be fun! :)
     
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  15. Marma

    Marma

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    Hello all!
    Hi Hopeful!
    My "church" asset is nearing completion, but it mushroomed into a much bigger project!
    Soon, the "free" version of my upcoming "Angels and Demons" audio pack will be released!

    In the meantime, check out the demo videos! ;)





    I will also release a "church and sacred music" pack only, with the church organ and choir for those who do not care for the "Angels and Demons" soundtracks. :D
     
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  16. siblingrivalry

    siblingrivalry

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    Hi, I really love the concept for this pack.

    The demon and angels seems more general and usable for a wider audience.
    Demons reminds me of Monkey Island so not really 'demonic' enough for me.

    The Angels starts with Superman and then moves to Xena Warrior Princess soundtrack :) Later on it reminds of Randy Edelman.
     
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  17. Marma

    Marma

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    Hi! Glad you like the concept!
    It's true that the "Demon" one is still very "tonal" and not too terrifying.
    I might compose a more "dark" soundtrack but the main reason I kept it more traditional is that my old computer would have died should I have tried more "adventurous" music... It will have to wait until I get my new computer and then perhaps I can add something much more "dramatic" or "Dark"... :p
     
  18. hopeful

    hopeful

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    I do like music that can be used for more than one concept. It's very helpful. For instance, the demonic music could also be used for a dark carnival, a Silk Road caravan, or maybe even a march by old sci-fi giant robots or something.

    A game dev can accentuate the music toward their particular use-case by adding SFX like whip cracks, hysterical laughter, robotic mechanical sounds, and so on.
     
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  19. Marma

    Marma

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    About SFX, I'm thinking of including some SFX as a bonus to the audio pack.
    Any thoughts about SFX that just HAS to be there? :)
     
  20. hopeful

    hopeful

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    As for adding SFX, you can do that, but at the moment I can't think of anything that needs to be there, as there's so many different conceptualizations / implementations that are possible. Moans, screams, chains, celestial trumpets, distorted demonic horns, beautiful harp, mega harp, ... and so on.

    You could add some stinger-like bits of music for win/lose, defeat, reward, to signal ambush, to indicate a boss enemy is present, spell effects, and so on.

    Whatever you feel inspired to do. :)

    It could be too complicated, but probably my preference is to come up with more musical elements that can be used to provide variation. Like a little bit of tambourine, maybe snare drum flourishes for the march, maybe a slow rhythm on a bass drum for added drama when you want it, some horns or cello, etc. Small accents that could be added to the music when desired, to change it, but without overwhelming the music.

    As for the angelic music ... I have a harder time figuring out where I can use it. Probably my action game - focused more or less on the strife between good and evil - is the wrong kind of game for it, as it sounds to me like music for a casual game with cute animals busily jumping around.

    If there is a way to get a slower, more noble, sweeping, majestic music out of the angelic set, that would work for me. @siblingrivalry said it reminded him of Superman and Xena, and while the angelic music doesn't sound like that to me, I do think that sort of thing would be good models for noble, heroic, angelic music. As for the format, maybe something that more closely parallels the demonic, with a dramatic march and combat set, church-like and/or cosmic ambient, and so on, as this would be reflecting what happens in action game play.

    I do already have a lot of music to draw on for my games, so don't make changes specifically for me. I'm just giving my point of view. You could have a marketing problem, though, if the angelic music is better suited for a casual music crowd, but with the angelic theme it is being targeted more at a heroic action game crowd.
     
  21. Marma

    Marma

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    Hi guys! Sorry for the late feedback!
    I'm finalizing the "church" part of the pack which I will also release as a standalone asset (for those who just want "realistic" church music)... I think you'll enjoy it, especially the Baroque choirs which took me a lot of effort to compose and tweak to provide a realistic effect. :cool:

    I will definitely think about adding stingers, however, for signaling ambush or a boss enemy, I'll have to be careful... Had I composed everything in the same "key", I would make "universal" stingers that would work for every track, but that's not the case... In order not to bore your ears, I used different keys for many of the tracks! So if I do add stingers, they will most likely be short percussive effects or just SFX purely, not musical in nature... :p

    It is true that much of the "angelic" music is more suited for a "cinematic" scene, like the "ascent to paradise" then for a video game... I think it would work well in an RPG with heaven-like scenary, but it's true that much of it is actually close to "casual" gaming styles... And, well, that's the idea behind the pack... I wanted to illustrate heaven in music, so that primed over the usability of the music in a game... Ah, my artistic aspirations work against me! :oops:

    As for the more "noble, sweeping, majestic music", well, I think some of the angelic tracks correspond to that description, only not at the "intensity" levels that I shared in the videos... The "Glorious Angel March" ends up very "heroic" in nature: I add snare drums and mix between minor and major modes for a more dramatic yet heroic effect. The "Angel Waltz" and "Craddled by Angels" also finish very majestic at the highest intensities... But I'll try to put together an interactive demo once I'm done programming it so you can test it! ;)

    In any case, I can easily compose a few extra tracks based on user feedback, but I'll leave that for later!
    Now, I have more "crazy" plans in revolutionizing the video game music industry with even more advanced "random" music generation!
    As soon as I get my new computer, I'll try to compose a random "classical" music generator "mozart style"... It's a personal challenge, but it could be interesting also for you guys! :D

    In any case, stay tuned! In a few days I'll release an interactive Unity Webplayer build where you'll be able to test the power of random church music generation! :cool:
     
  22. hopeful

    hopeful

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    Yeah, I can see where - with the way you design things - it might be possible to tweak it so as to get more "angelic action music" out of it. The first 14 seconds of the intro, for instance, sounds like it could fit an action theme. :)
     
  23. Marma

    Marma

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  24. hopeful

    hopeful

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    It's nice music. I'm not sure how many games it will fit in - lol - but it could find its way into background music for church scenes, concerts, funerals, and the like.

    BTW, if you were thinking of making a pack of traditional Christmas music, best to get started on it soon. :)
     
  25. Marma

    Marma

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    LOL! :)

    Nah... When I decide to compose something for the Assetstore, I take care in looking what's already on offer and try to bring something that's either completely original like the Angels and Demons which is nowhere to be found in the Audio section of the Assetstore (thanks to you btw!!) or compose something that's already there but where I think my composition would make a difference (like the Authentic Medieval Music or the Authentic Medieval Battle Music in opposition to all that "orchestral" medieval music which is totally anachronistic)

    I decided to compose church music also because the music that was offered as "sacred" or "church" music was... well... really bad IMHO... :p Weird melodies on "Oooohs" and "Aaaahs", weird orchestration, terrible instrument choice... Anyways... :D

    And as far as Christmas is concerned, I think like half the composers on the Assetstore have composed Christmas music which is pretty nice (even if cheesy)... I'd just be another composer proposing the stereotypical jingle bell filled music... :rolleyes:

    And regarding the Church music, well, I know that the potential clients are few, but if there are any, I'm pretty confident that they won't even look at the competition once they've listened to this asset! :cool:
     
  26. hopeful

    hopeful

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    Heh. And who knows, maybe the next big thing will be ... church games! :)
     
  27. Marma

    Marma

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    Hahaha! Well, I had fun composing it and it made me practice counterpoint, which is already a win! :p

    But I have already several other projects for the future already: a random "mozart like" classical music generator (which I'm doing more for fun than for developers... not sure how they would use it but who knows!) and then one other concept that should revolutionize video game music! (I'm always a dreamer!) :D
     
  28. hopeful

    hopeful

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    Keep it fun. :)
     
  29. Marma

    Marma

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  30. Marma

    Marma

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    hopeful likes this.
  31. Marma

    Marma

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  32. hopeful

    hopeful

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    Thank you! Playing with it now (the free version). :)
     
  33. Marma

    Marma

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    Cool! Hope you'll like it! Don't forget to drop a review.. ;-)