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Character modeling costs?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by neginfinity, Nov 28, 2015.

  1. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    How much does character modeling cost these days?

    My primary skill is programming, but I had a little pet project where I modeled a "knight" (half a million triangles in blender, based off makehuman base, needs retopo, more details and armor needs rigging). Now, I'd like to finish that character, but have increasing trouble finding time for that, so I'm investigating my options.
     
  2. carking1996

    carking1996

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    The cheapest I've seen is $150, but that was a friend price. It's usually in the $5-700 range.
     
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  3. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Would you mind breaking price into components?

    Right now I have high poly base that could use a bit more detailing.

    So, basically, what would be approximate prices for:

    1. Base model
    2. High poly sculpt.
    3. Retopo of high poly sculpt.
    4. Rig
    5. Texturing job.

    Also, would be nice if someone had experience working with freelancers/outsourcing stuff to regions with lower cost.

    IIRC McGee's alice Madness returns had most of its staff in China. Results were quite good.
     
  4. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

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    Price is based on time spent - so the question should really be how long would these tasks take.
    I don't know any competent artists who offer modeling or any other services for under $20 USD per hour. Be cautious for quotes where the calculation doesn't add up to something near $20/hour or above.

    All estimates are approximations.
    1. Depends upon the complexity of the model.
    1000-2500 polys 4-8 hours.
    2500-5000 polys 6-12 hours.
    5000-7500 polys 10-20 hours.
    7500-10,000 polys 15-30 hours.
    2. Depends upon the complexity of the model. For indie rates I usually offer 2D normal map generation instead of high res sculpt which is a lot faster normal map creation process, faster = less cost.
    3. Depends upon the complexity of the model.
    1000-2500 polys 2-4 hours.
    2500-5000 polys 4-6 hours.
    5000-7500 polys 6-8 hours.
    7500-10,000 polys 8-10 hours.
    4. Depends upon the complexity of the model. Similar to retopo times
    5. Depends upon the complexity and resolution of the texture and complexity of the model to be unwrapped.
    1000-2500 polys 2-6 hours.
    2500-5000 polys 4-8 hours.
    5000-7500 polys 6-12 hours.
    7500-10,000 polys 8-15 hours.
     
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  5. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Thanks for the info, it is quite useful.

    Does the rate you listed apply all around the globe or just to USA? Because while I understand your statement about competence, I'd expect to see some price variations based on where artist lives.
     
  6. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

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    Yes US, Europe, Japan, and Australia.
    There will be some variations even within these localities, but from experience on both ends as a client and contractor, suggest only hiring out of these geographic locations. Prices might be significantly lower on bids coming from other areas, but it's worth paying more (imo) and getting the product you desire on first or second delivery compared to the time wasted with cultural and communication barriers.
    Communication issues can delay a delivery of small edits from a day turn around - to a week or more, and cultural barriers can result in a complete rework needed if misunderstandings aren't cleared up entirely.
     
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  7. LaneFox

    LaneFox

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    I used this guy and was happy. You can usually find more affordable talent around here but you have to dig for a reputable person because there is a lot of noise and it can be risky to use someone without much background, experience or confirmable references but that is a trade-off if you're needing bottom dollar prices.

    Check out the Freelance section of the Polycount wiki for a general idea of prices... If you are hiring a guy that does this for a side gig then you can probably find lower prices but full time guys will basically have the standard rates. It's sometimes easy to forget that the art on the Asset Store is non-exclusive and that is why it is so insanely cheap so when you go to hire an individual to work for you the prices can be a bit of a shock but they are more realistic numbers.
     
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  8. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I'll check that out, thanks for the info.

    At the moment, I'm getting definite impression that it might be the best idea to just to try to finish the character myself (and then maybe put that onto store if it turns out well). Still need to think about it a bit.
     
  9. Martin_H

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    I don't think I could find a good freelance 3D artist in Germany who would work for 20$/h. I'd say 40,- to 100,- are a lot more realistic. USD to EUR wasn't a big difference last time I checked. In the end the fixed price you negotiate and the quality of the delivered assets matter, and you should not care if the artist made 20 $ or 200 $ per hour to get the result. There can be big differences in how long artists take for certain tasks. When turnaround times are critical that's of course a factor in itself and can also factor into the price.
     
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  10. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    Thanks Lane, I just reached out to him for a logo design quote. :)
     
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  11. BornGodsGame

    BornGodsGame

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    also be careful about paying upfront for anything but a very popular artisit.
     
  12. Kiwasi

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    This pretty much matches my experience with non native English speakers. (Note this is in a different industry). While they charged a nominally cheaper hourly rate, communication barriers meant that I had to spend longer describing what needed to be done. And I had to review everything myself. With several versions sent back to be revised each time.

    The reason you contract things out is because your time is to valuable to do the task yourself. That's always worth considering along with the price. How much of your own time needs to go into maintaining the contract.
     
  13. GarBenjamin

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    I can see this happening. Just haven't run into it yet. Granted I generally contract work out to people in the USA but have contracted work out to a couple of people in other countries. Maybe it's because the people I worked with I found online in artist forums. I probably subconsciously filtered out the posts that seemed like they did not have a good understanding of English.

    I've heard stories of people running into this kind of thing many times. And from artists too who describe the other side of it. They call them "clients from hell" who ask for revision after revision. But yeah I can definitely see if they are not understanding the requirements then of course the client will ask for revision after revision until they get what they were actually intending to pay for.
     
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  14. Kiwasi

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    In fairness my story was based on a work experience. I had no control over selecting the actual candidates to do the work. If you do proper due diligence when selecting candidates most of this can be avoided.
     
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  15. angrypenguin

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    As long as the contract/relationship are ok then multiple revisions are fine and, typically, to be expected. If the agreement doesn't account for this, either by allowing extra time or agreeing on rates for additional work up front, that's often a sign of inexperience.

    When people ask for conflicting changes, on the other hand... that's... difficult.
     
  16. GarBenjamin

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    That is true. Actually every artist I work with sends over a quick rough and asks me to confirm if that is what I am looking for or if have changes to make please tell them. Only when I say "yeah that's it!" do they actually spend time detailing it out.

    I'm generally pretty easy to please though or at least I think I am. lol I guess some of the artists might think otherwise. Basically the way I see it any experienced (personal time or professionally) artist will make art that looks much better than I will so generally whatever they send I am pretty happy with. I'm just looking for good plug-n-play art to bring my visions to life.

    Often I send them my own quick sketches at the start or provide references in the form of screenshots and so forth.

    So maybe all of these things together are why everything has gone so smoothly for me outsourcing. Well that and I know how critical it is to have requirements clarified because of my own job and when I was an Independent IT Consultant. Gotta understand what the client wants.
     
  17. neginfinity

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    Perhaps you're willing to tell where you hire those guys?

    In my experience paying money - even decent money doesn't necessarily mean the dude is good, regardless of the rate he/she asks for.

    I know someone who had surprising amount of trouble finding someone who could model a werewolf - even for cash. (Apparently modeling a wolf head in 3d is a good skill test - lots of people will sink trying to do that.) Lots of people claim that they're more skilled than they are, many charge more than they're worth and lots of them spent too much time modeling humanoid characters, sometimes using makehuman/daz/whatever as a base. And when they can't use that as a base they mess up, because some of those guys are missing standard artistic skill of breaking things up into base shapes.
     
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  18. FuzzyQuills

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    I've tried modelling a wolf head for a character... Although I didn't get far (ran out of time, as the character was going to be for an extra part of a school assignment) the shape was looking ok.
     
  19. Martin_H

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    Providing your own sketches (no matter how simple) and references is an absolutely great way of making life easier for everyone involved. It helps avoid misunderstandings and gives the artists the best chance of understanding your vision. I wish more clients would do this.


    Then the pool of people you have had experience with isn't what I would call professional 3D artists. Imho - unless forced onto them by an existing pipeline or exotic requirements set by a client - no professional 3D artist would touch daz or makehuman. If you see anything from daz in their porfolio, choose another one. Except maybe if they are the creators of the original content for daz studios as their client, but even then it is probably a bad sign (saying this because the only 3D artist I've ever seen who had something he made for daz in his portfolio was super inexperienced as a 3D artist).
     
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  20. Deleted User

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    I'm not sure how you'd tell really, there's a GO-Z bridge in Daz where you can re-sculpt the face. The rest can be morphed to exactly how you want it with decent results. It'd be a waste of time not to use stock base models and then modify them to suit your needs.

    Especially as it uses a game base compatible skeleton you can merge with cloth meshes then auto decimate the output, I'd actually go as far as it's a bit of a waste of time if you're not a 3D artist. Unless you want stock models in your game, in which the asset store would be a much cheaper avenue. Factoring in the cost of Z-brush / Daz license /decimator and probably SD / Atlas for textures you're probably at nearly $2K.

    Plus it has been used in films and a fair few games already. So I wouldn't say "no professional 3D artist" would touch it..

    @neginfinity

    Get a quote from @ironbellystudios, from the UE stuff they've done they seem pretty good. Spoke to them a couple of times, nice peeps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2015
  21. Martin_H

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    Seems I stand corrected. I've reached out to some artists and they confirmed "whatever works / speeds up work". I was not thinking about dynamesh/zremesher because I never did much with zbrush and those things afaik became only really usable after I last looked at zbrush. When I stopped being interested in sculpting many years ago the to my knowledge the more common workflow was still to use rougher basemeshes (either from the artists own collection or one of the few passed around in the community) with more even topology that subdivides better as you increase the level of detail.

    My point being (and I think it makes sense) if you can tell by looking at it, it is a bad sign.


    I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to here.
     
  22. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I'm gonna agree with ShadowK here, you would have no way of knowing if they used poser/daz/whatever template, unless they're really bad at it. Even with my mediocre modeling skills I could plug 3rd party human into blender, sculpt on top of that, and that would completely destroy model's original topology and shape to the point where there would be nothing recognizeable left. The problem is, this kind of thing doesn't work well on non-humanoid shapes, like werewolf head.

    Also, I wasn't the one hiring people in that case.

    Thanks for the suggestion, I think I'm gonna try that later this week.


    It doesn't work this way anymore. Plug things into blender, switch to sculpt mode, and just touch model with the brush anywhere, it'll subdivide and collapse edges automatically.



    You'll have few millions triangles in minutes, and original recognizeable topology will be gone for good. You still can sculpt things the old way, of course, but I'm not sure if it used on organic shapes often.
     
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  23. Martin_H

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    Yeah the "being really bad at it" part is what I was getting at. If you can still see it in portfolio images, they are doing something wrong/not knowing what they are doing.

    Did the blender sculpting performance change drastically in the last 2-3 years? That's about the time I last tested the sculpting tools there and as much as I love blender, compared to zBrush I can not see it as a production ready sculpting tool because how poorly it handles millions of polygons performance wise. Afaik that is due to the viewport drawing code and they are working on that issue, but I'm not 100% sure.
    There are also some drawbacks to the dyntopo workflow in general because you can't go back to lower resolution steps to tweak larger shapes more easily and the messy topology might cause some issues when you try to sculpt hardsurface stuff (debatable if you should sculpt those at all). It also has some serious advantages, I'll admit. You can take a sphere and sculpt something entirely different from it. With good remeshing tools you could start out with dyntopo, remesh it to a better topology and do the last iterations with the more classical subdivision workflows. Do you know how far blender has come in the remeshing department? Can it compare to 3D coat and zBrush yet?
     
  24. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Hardware improved significantly and they optimized their code a bit, too.

    My machine can handle few millions of tris without problem, the only minor issue is that Undo in dyntopo mode is slow.
    Sculpting itself is quite fast, unless you suddenly decide to smooth half of the character with huge brush. Then it will "pause" while calculating.

    Usually you'll want to use matcap in viewport, that'll render things quickly, but you could sculpt a wall texture with realtime viewport shadows if you wanted. Frankly, having cycles preview open while sculpting will cause larger slowdown.

    There's MultiRes modifier for that kind of sculpting.

    Hard surface sculpting can be done with dyntopo too, but it can be hard, if you, say, decide that you want to move that huge arm a bit somewhere.

    You'll want dyntopo for faces, and multires for stuff like clothes.

    Well, you can sculpt hard surfaces, if you want:


    That requires some tricks, though. Hard surface are easier to control when you have poygonal base (and, say, subsurf on top of it).

    There's retopoflow tool, but it is not a part of standard blender distro. Haven't tested it properly yet.


    I think it is quite close to zbrush, when it comes to sculpting, but retopo is a pain.

    3d coat has advantage of being able to punch holes through sculpt, but software itself is very awkward to use, I tried to get into it few times, decided it is not worth it in the end. Zbrush dynamesh required you to tell it when you wanted more polys (meaning it couldn't auto subdivide surface) last time I tried it, although I heard that polygon reduction utilites are good.
    Also, 3d coat pricing scheme isn't good.
     
  25. Martin_H

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    Thanks for all the info! It seems I should give the blender sculpting tools another try soon :).
    The last time I did a character sculpt might be this thing from 2010:

    Sculpted in sculptris, texture painted in Photoshop, rendered in blender and final touches in Photoshop again.

    Same here, although many years have passed since I tried it. Back then it had a voxel mode that was an interesting concept but not really practical imho.

    I'm always a bit wary of blender addons because the Python API changed so often in the recent years and thus often breaks 3rd party addons. Also what this does doesn't seem to do much more than streamline the workflows you would use to manually retopologize in blender with the standard tools like the shrinkwrap modifier. Afaik zBrush has a pretty decent automatic remesher tool that works rather well as a 1-click solution to the task. I've heard good things about the 3D coat auto retopo too, but never tried it.
     
  26. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    The stuff they show in their test video would save you lots of time - assuming it works as advertised. Manual retopology in blender involves snapping vertices to surface and moving them (really tedious, but could've been worse) they do the same things in few strokes. Shrinkwrap will make a mess often.

    Speaking of zbrush remesher someone mentioned in another thread that it is not very suitable for character remeshing, but might work well for static geometry. Proper character retopology would need edge loops at elbows/knees and preferably it should be quad-only.

    Blender had some polygon decimating tool (that produces triangle-based mesh) but I haven't used it much.
     
  27. Martin_H

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    I should have specified that I was talking about a retopo step in a highpoly sculpting process. For actually using the lowpoly mesh in a game etc. I'm sceptical if any algorithm will ever match what an experienced artist can do manually.

    This is an interesting talk about automating pipelines:



    Btw: can you show us the highpoly sculpt you are refering to in the OP? I'm just curious what style / shapedesign you are going for.
     
  28. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    It is not a sculpt, it is hard surface armor model, pretty much (I tried to sculpt that before, that's didn't work well when I decided to move shoulder guard). The reason it has a lot of tris is because of subdivision surfaces. Also, it doesn't look very good (cause I'm not a modeler).

    Anyway, here goes nothing:
    blender.jpg

    Quick attempt to texture it:
    painter2.jpg
     
  29. Martin_H

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    Nice. The helmet design reminds me of Robocop :).
     
  30. GarBenjamin

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    @neginfinity I was mainly posting about the aspects of outsourcing art to other people in general. I haven't contracted out 3D modeling in a long time. The last time I did I used Guru.com which may or may not be the same thing it was back then. IIRC I was charged $10 for a custom work of a witch riding on a broom where the witch and broom were separate pieces. But it was a low poly work compared to the models these days.

    The work I outsource now is all 2D. I think the same general principles will certainly apply though as far as finding and working with people.

    If I was after a custom high poly werewolf model I'd check out 3d forums (and even the asset store here) looking for people who have produced a lot of creature models. Ideally those who have done werewolf models although basically anyone who shows a lot of experience in creating mythological creatures in general would be worth my time contacting.

    Then I just start contacting them all and see who is interested in taking on such a project and what they'd charge. Taking the average of those quotes gives me a good idea of how much such a thing costs.The questions asked by the first couple of respondents helps me to refine and further clarify the requests when I contact the remaining people on my list of candidates.

    That is just the normal way I do it. Occasionally I just post an ad someplace and go from there.

    Basically if you find an artist who loves the subject material and is always working on creature models along the lines of what you are looking for the odds are they will really enjoy creating the werewolf model and that is probably 80% of the battle. Because it is something they greatly enjoy and literally spend their free time doing daily they are very good at it and have workflows down to do it pretty fast compared for example to another modeler who does a great job and has a passion for vehicles.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
  31. neginfinity

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    Thanks for the info. That was useful. Especially "artist who loves the subject material" part.
     
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  32. theANMATOR2b

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    I was low balling so as not to offend anybody. :)
    Definitely forgot to mention this. Price can increase rapidly if turnaround time strains the artists regular working schedule.

    This is where milestones payments are good practice. When dealing with a simple model/texture - consider a payment structure where the artist receives 30% after the modeling is complete and is accepted by you. The rest can come after the model is completed. This gives the artist a little pick me up, incentive to keep doing good work and finishup the required work.
    This is especially beneficial for both sides when it is a complete working character, from concept all the way through animation.

    Agreed - umm didn't you say the other way on the last edit? That's ... difficult.

    This is very true, putting in the effort upfront to outline and detail requirements will allow for very little misunderstanding, and also gives the artist the opportunity to ask questions which haven't been clarified.

    Mudbox ftw (and at a great tempting $10/month) Awesome base retopo tool - which is never the finished product for a character artist, but is a great time saver.
     
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  33. angrypenguin

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    I don't think so. Not deliberately, at any rate.
     
  34. goat

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    Unless you've personally had them do work for you, you don't know until they finish their 1st job for you. $40 - $50 is what you would expect to pay a competent professional free lancing on the side. I recently paid someone out of respect $150 for a morph/blendshape that they'll do for me when they aren't busy but that's just trading favours.

    And paying a lot is no promise of quality. When I worked for a very deep pocketed department of the government they'd routinely bring in specialist contractors working directly for the businesses the government had bought very expensive equipment, software, and support contracts from and in the short time I was there I would invariably have to troubleshot bugs with not 1, not 2, but 3 major products of those big products that didn't properly work. Let me tell you I'm not that smart and I sure wasn't a product expert for those products. Getting those products to work simply actually took a little effort and a little bit of concern about the quality and the effect that quality or lack of quality has on others. We're not talking the stress of being a police or fireman here, their lack of effort was way out of line really. Let me tell you the government was not happy when I resigned but I couldn't have been paid enough to go back but I did fix those 3 products that had been left broken for years by limp support afraid of losing their jobs. Nowadays, I resign myself before I get too far in to a job if I can't make a good effort. Mea culpa. Get someone that wants to be there. Whoop de do.
     
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  35. JamesArndt

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    Yeah I was going to say the $20 per hour mark is more like a brand new grad rate or student rate..more like $35-$50 for a competent character artist. This is based on the US market though. I know Vietnam has some outstanding outsourcing firms, a lot of them listed on the Gamasutra main page.
     
  36. Deleted User

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    I recently spent a roughly a week on a gun model project (mainly to improve my skills) and though I don't have any materials added to it or any sort of UV-Unwrapping done, it definitely looks nice and is very accurate. Its 2,235 faces and 5,539 triangles. It probably took me 12 to 16 hours over the space of the week. I'm only guesstimating, I never actually wrote down when I worked on and for how long. Is that a reasonable time frame for an artist? I'm mainly a programmer but that doesn't mean I've never dabbled with this. Our final web design project this fall turned out pretty damn impressive tbh, and I did most of the design myself!
     
  37. neginfinity

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    No, I don't think so.

    IIRC a time to make throwaway character (i.e. not a protagonist) takes 2 days and that includes uwmap and rig. A week for a gun without material or texture is definitely too much.

    I'm in the same boat, by the way. By putting enough hours I can produce 2d or 3d stuff that won't be complete garbage, but seasoned artist will do the same job 4 times faster.

    -----

     
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  38. Deleted User

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    Let me correct what I said in my last post @neginfinity it took me a week to finish the entire model (w/o textures/uw-unwraps, etc. areas of expertise I'm not good at right now). Much of that time was broken up. I guesstimated 12-16 hours of work on that model. Though looking at that ACR timelapse, I could have done things differently. He uses a lot of subdivision modeling, I primarily use plane modeling w/ lots of extrusions. That timelapse made things looks so easy though xD
     
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  39. neginfinity

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    I meant that 12-16 hours of work per one untextured gun without material is too much. I would expect it to take 2..3 times less. Or even 4 times less. Depending on the model. I think the second video is what you should be aiming at in terms of quality. No offense, of course.

    Subdivisiion surfaces are very useful when you need to model anything with smooth surface and still keep things under control.
     
  40. neginfinity

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    I'm having difficulty locating those. On gamasutra page, there are 3 companies total listed in "3d modeling" category, 2 of them usa based. Did I overlook something?
     
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  41. JamesArndt

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  42. neginfinity

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    How is it you guys afford this art? $700 is a steep price for anything. I would assume that you have patreon funding or some high income job.
     
  44. neginfinity

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    I guess people that earn more than $700 per month just save up, those who don't seek local talents, the rest attempt to use volunteers, do stuff themselves, buy it from asset store, try "equivalent exchange" kind of agreements ("you help me with art on my project, I help you with code on your proejct"), get art services from friends at reduced price or attempt to outsource.

    Ironbelly's quote was $800 and up per one character, by the way.
     
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  45. theANMATOR2b

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    No - sorry @angrypenguin - I was referring to the fake contractor asking for changes completely opposite to the first change request. Sorry for the confusion - Darn text based sarcasm! o_O

    And that is very reasonable for the high quality they produce.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015