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CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS - New Digital Game Subscription Service

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AnthonyPalma, Aug 28, 2015.

  1. AnthonyPalma

    AnthonyPalma

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    Hey Unity devs!

    My name is Anthony Palma and I'm the CEO of Kermdinger Studios, a gaming startup building the next disruptive thing in gaming: Boondogl, a platform agnostic digital game subscription service. Think: Netflix for Digital Games. Users pay a flat monthly fee for unlimited access to every game on Boondogl across every device each developer supports. Awesome, for gamers, right?

    It's awesome for developers too. Check out the infographic below to understand the details, the benefits, and the revenue opportunity. In a nutshell, one WebGL build of your game works across all platforms, and you make money for each minute your game is played. It's that simple.

    We're looking for great Unity 5 games for Boondogl, both for our launch catalog (launching Q4 2015) and for the future. If you want to engage users on a new and exciting platform that doesn't compete with your digital download sales, let's talk!

    Happy to answer any questions here as well.

    boondogl_subscription_infographic.png
     
  2. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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  3. AnthonyPalma

    AnthonyPalma

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    Yes!

    Core Labs officially launched and currently supports 10 game development studios. This is unrelated to Boondogl entirely.

    The other "we want Unity 5 WebGL games" was a very early post pursuing content for Boondogl, so it's the same venture. We've simply shifted to a subscription model because it fits the "play anywhere on any device" value proposition better and is a paradigm users are used to now (unlimited access for a monthly fee).
     
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  4. Kiwasi

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    Sweet. In that case best of luck with this one. It sounds like a pretty cool idea.
     
  5. AnthonyPalma

    AnthonyPalma

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    Thank you!
     
  6. EEManio

    EEManio

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    This is an awesome idea. I'd be curious to see more/hear more about it at some point.
     
  7. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    $0.005 * 10 hrs = $3.00

    Where if I could create a 10 hour game it could sell for $14.99 on Steam.

    This I assume because if the game weren't of a better quality than a free game, nobody would subscribe. Therefore, the game needs to be marketable. What kind of games will be on this service? My brain requires input.
     
  8. tedthebug

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    even though it is playable on any supported device will the user require internet to play them or, for example, could they download it to their tablet & then play it anywhere? I'm assuming web access will be needed to play so you can measure time played but was just checking in case you add something to the game so it measures offline play & then uploads the details the next time the user connects (assuming again that they can't ever block it from sending the data to you).

    Sounds interesting though, good luck.
     
  9. AnthonyPalma

    AnthonyPalma

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    Thanks @EEManio! Feel free to email me if you have questions: anthony@kermdinger.com

    Hey @anselmo.fresquez, Happy to elaborate. To address your concerns:
    • You are correct, we're going after high-quality games that you'd typically find on Steam or consoles, including indie, AAA, retro, and VR games.
    • From a $14.99 sale on Steam, you'd end up with around $10 after taxes and Steam's fee.
    • While you may not make the same amount per user from a 10-hour game if they only play it once, you will reach a much broader audience. Think about the tens or hundreds of thousands of Steam users who may view your game, but not buy it because they don't want to spend $15 on a game they don't know. On Boondogl, there's no purchase anxiety, so they can freely play your game as much as they want, and you make money from them.
    • Another great thing: super users will make you more money than they would from a one-time purchase. I, for example, played FTL for over 100 hours, which would have earned those devs $30-60 on Boondogl even though I bought it for $10 on a Steam sale, giving the devs around $6.
    @tedthebug, that's a great question! Online connection will be required at launch because all the content is web-based (no permanent downloads to take up your storage), but we're planning a temporary offline player that will let you download a game or two for a brief period of time (maybe 24-48 hours) for travel, flights, etc. and we'll pull details from that offline game session next time they connect online.
     
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  10. tedthebug

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    thanks for clarifying :)
     
  11. Kiwasi

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    Whats your selling point for devs over existing web portals?
     
  12. AnthonyPalma

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    Great question, @BoredMormon!
    • We're not just a web portal; we'll be like Netflix or Spotify, where you can access Boondogl from any device you currently have available and play any game on the service, so long as the devs incorporated that device's controls.
    • We're a subscription service, not a store, so users will have unlimited access to all games on the service in exchange for a monthly fee. Consequently, devs with games on the service will be able to reach a much broader audience since they don't have to convince people to buy their game outright; they simply make money each time their game is played. Super users will also make them significantly more money than on one-time purchase stores.
    • We exclusively support native web games, so there's no plugins and no downloads for users, which means no barriers to entry for developers getting users.
    • Using native web exports, developers can reach virtually every major platform, including desktops, consoles, mobile devices, and even VR headsets. They can ship on all platforms or just a select few; all they have to do is incorporate control schemes for what they want to support.
    I hope that helps!
     
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  13. tedthebug

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    Once you get a few games up, how will profiling/sorting/searching & landing pages be done? i.e how will games be selected to be on the front page, must get specials etc etc
    As to player profiling, I'm assuming (again) that you will be keeping stats on what type & genre of games players play so that you can possibly target new games at them. Will they also be shown games outside of their normal zone & if so how will you decide them?
     
  14. AnthonyPalma

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    @tedthebug we have a number of systems planned to drive users to games in various ways! To list a few:
    • Netflix-style category browsing based on game genres, features (multiplayer, story, etc.), and numerous others
    • Featured games, new games, new DLC, and recommended games sections at the top of the page to feature and re-feature games for visibility
    • A robust recommendation system that not only tracks users' habits, but picks up on traits they like across games and recommends games to them both broadly and within categories
    • A "random picks" section that will suggest games out of a user's comfort zone to get them exploring
    We're highly open to suggestions here too, but the goal is super easy access and discoverability, both for gamers AND for devs.
     
  15. tedthebug

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    thanks for replying.

    Will the system that tracks their habits & the traits of games they play be based on metadata that the developers provide around what is in the game or will you guys be analysing them? I'm thinking will it identify that all the games they play have zombies in them in some form? if so, how does it identify that or things along those lines?

    Secondly, will the devs or you guys be working out what category/ies the games fall into so that they show correctly in the searches.

    Something that has sucked me into spending money (& finding things I never knew about) is Amazon's "people that bought this also bought.....". Often they were in 'adjacent' categories/genres that I'd never looked at & I found stuff I liked, which then led me to others ..............


    Edit: Out of curiosity, how will you manage access to mobile devices like Apple products & the Android store to restrict only your subscribers to having access? Is there a technological solution or have you worked something out with the platform owners?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
  16. Tiny-Man

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    This looks pretty cool dude, would be definitely interested in this in both using it as a service and a developer. Although I need to start making a game first :p
     
  17. movra

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  18. Not_Sure

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    What's your user base look like?
    How are you guys expanding it?
    What are you offering that Steam can't copy and put you under?

    Is Boondgl public or private?
    If private, how are you handling investors?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
  19. Master-Frog

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    There you go. :)

    These are numbers.

    $11.99 / 31 days =
    $0.3867741935483871 per day / 24 hours =
    $0.0161155913978495 per hour / 60 minutes =
    $0.00268593189964158 per minute.

    Where as you are paying

    $0.005 - %0.01 per minute.

    Granted, it's not physically possible for a human being to play the game 24/7.

    But what stops them from just leaving the game on and completely short-circuiting the whole system?

    Honestly, if someone is willing to pay between 2 and 4 times their potential revenue, they're assuming all of the risk. The service will probably be alright for some people, especially if their products are later in the lifecycle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
  20. Socrates

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    This is a new service, so has no established user base. What is your marketing plan and budget for gaining a user base?

    How will you be curating this service? Will you limit the available games to high quality like Steam used to, or will it be "whoever wants to sign up" like the app stores?
     
  21. movra

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    Amazon solves it by monitoring activity.

    For mobile devices that's a bit easier than on other devices, since people don't leave apps running in the foreground for whole days.

    In Boondogl's case I assume they'll measure input activity.
     
  22. Master-Frog

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    Interesting!

    So netflix for games.
     
  23. AnthonyPalma

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    Ah sorry guys, I'm at an event this morning so I missed all these! Let me try to address some of the above in order:
    • @tedthebug, we'll use a metadata tagging system per game, and we'll allow devs to tag attributes as well as add tags ourselves. I also like the "people who played this also played..." idea, as it's yet another way to recommend games to you with a different formula. And regarding platforms, it'll be like Netflix or Spotify where we'll have a native app on each device beyond desktops, and users will have to log in before they can access the service. Signing up will be done on the website, like Netflix.
    • Thanks @Tiny Man! As a gamer I'm excited as the prospect this creates. I used to be a hardcore gamer, but as an adult my time for gaming is limited even though I still like hardcore games, so a service like this would give me access to the games I want whenever I have time.
    • @movra, yeah, and the $0.005/minute is on the low end of our estimates, so the potential for better revenue is there. Amazon DEFINITELY has a larger audience since we're pre-launch. But, with us, it's just one build of your game to manage across all platforms, so not only is the revenue potential better, but you can reach more platforms easier.
    • @Not_Sure, no users yet as we're pre-launch, we'll expand to all platforms including VR by mid-2016 and will add retro, indie and AAA titles, we'll attract an initial user base by offering intro rates for a good while, and while Steam (or any other store) could copy us, they'd have to rebuild their game library from scratch since they're all downloadable right now and thus can't go cross-platform. Everyone is focused on streaming for platform agnosticism because it worked for movies and music, but it's not the answer for games. And finally, we're a startup so we're private, and we have investors lined up for a seed raise post-launch once we prove market acceptance.
    • @anselmo.fresquez, as the others said, we have code hooks in place to monitor all activity down to the minute, and we even have systems in place to account for people leaving the game open idly for long periods of time.
    • @Socrates, for marketing we'll roll out in waves: free, invite-only beta to build initial hype while we continue building our library, then an introductory offer like "first 25k subscribers get Boondogl at $6.99/month for life", then $8.99 for a few months, then when we finally hit $11.99, we'll do referral bonuses like "invite 3 friends, get a month free." Beyond that, the content will obviously drive users to the service, so we will be curating based on quality like Steam (I think that's how they found so much success) to gain user confidence. We will also allow Early Access games, but that particular section will be HEAVILY curated for quality and will only host 5-10 games at a time.
    I think that's everything! I'll continue answering questions as they come in. Really appreciate all the good insights and questions here.
     
  24. MD_Reptile

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    Actually sounds like a decent strategy. I hope to hear how the initial launch/alpha/beta stages go, and if things work smoothly, and people seem to like it or not.

    Only potential downside I can think of is that many casual games only tend to be played briefly, where the player beats a level here and there, and never invests more than a minute or two at a time to it. Wouldn't that hurt the bottom line, in comparison to a paid game on iOS or similar?

    And another thing I was wondering, what about advertising? Can apps include advertising services to generate money outside the regular time based income?

    Anyway yeah I'm interested to see how it turns out!
     
  25. AnthonyPalma

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    @MD_Reptile we're definitely excited to see how those stages go too :) haha.

    We won't host a whole lot of casual games as they typically already exist on the web and on mobile natively, but we'll host a few higher-quality ones. It heavily depends on the game, too. I (for some reason) love Adventure Capitalist, and while I only open it for 5 minutes at a time max, I've opened it a billion times. That will add up over time to a very solid amount, especially considering I'm not a microtransaction purchaser typically.

    There will be no ads whatsoever on Boondogl; as a paid subscription service we want to promote a clean user experience. Since you'll make money for play time, there should be a need for ads with us!
     
  26. darkhog

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    I have a small, but important question: How will you lure-in the customers to make them pay? Spotify has ad-supported "free" tier, Netflix was mail order DVD/VHS company long before it was streaming service (that being innovative by itself made people just try it). How YOU will rule in customers and convert them?

    Be aware that previous similar concepts, yes I'm talking about OnLive and Gaikai, have failed. The fact that aforementioned services have little in common with yours doesn't matter. For an average gamer, your service and say, OnLive is one and the same. And the name... Work on it, please. It's pretty forgettable. I've already forgotten it despite seeing it just few minutes ago.
     
  27. zombiegorilla

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    As others have asked, how exactly are you supporting mobile? Is it streamed like OnLive?
     
  28. darkhog

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    I think it'll just download webgl build and launch it. Like web browser, with no gameplay taking place on their servers. Though from average gamer that doesn't know tech, it'll look kinda similar to the point of being virtually same. That's why I've asked about their strategy of luring and then trapping customers in their service.
     
  29. Aiursrage2k

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    I guess MOBAS could work, maybe a roguelike if people kept replaying it.

    Imagine you had something real niche and only got like 1k users, and even if you sold it at $10 a pop you'd only get $10k bucks. But if you had a core group that played it every day for an hour (60 cents). Now your making $600 bucks a day, if those guys kept playing it for years your laughing. Im thinking of something like 'warlight'
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
  30. zombiegorilla

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    Webgl isn't really a viable solution for mobile at this point or in the near future.

    A couple of their big selling points are any device and single build. Neither of which is practical or really even possible right now.
     
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  31. AnthonyPalma

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    @darkhog:
    • we don't want to "lure" customers; that sounds shady. we want to attract customers with a solid value proposition. As for how we'll attract them, please see my previous posts on our initial customer acquisition strategies.
    • Sorry you don't like the name, but we do :)
    • We will not be "trapping" users either. Your approach to business is scary...
    • Gaikai was a wild success; they sold for $380 million within 3 years
    @zombiegorilla: darkhog is correct. Native web builds using HTML5, WebGL and/or JavaScript work across all devices without any additional work. While WebGL isn't heavily supported in the default on-device browsers, our proprietary apps (aforementioned) have special custom Mozilla-built in-app browsers that run web content like it's natively installed. It's beautiful and Mozilla is awesome. You'd be surprised just how doable a single build across all devices is right now. We wouldn't be pursuing this if it wasn't possible, I promise.

    @Aiursrage2k MOBAs and other "arena"-type multiplayer games are the only free-to-play games we think would make sense on our service. And yes, they'd stand to make a great deal based on play time; potentially more than IAP.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
  32. Deleted User

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    I'm not sure how they could target big games and AAA games either, imagine trying to stream 8 to 30 GB's of data over a WebGL setup? It's definatley not ideal if you have to wait two to eight hours (if your broadband is good) until it loads? Then when you exit the game what about saves? You'd need some sort of local cache copy right? How does it automagically save variables deeply embedded in your code? Or is it like a state based save system?

    Little confused on this bit, our game is 10GB and it's not even finished.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2015
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  33. zombiegorilla

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    Exactly. Even if enough improvements come for webgl to be practical on device, you still would want create an mobile/device optimized version. The target of high end games and a single version isn't practical (or doable). A large game designed for desktop could easily blow through available memory.
     
  34. zombiegorilla

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    Your marketing text may be misleading.
    You say no downloads, but here you say a custom client is required.

    The iOS Firefox is a replication of the Firefox experience, nothing more. It is built with uikit and other existing iOS frameworks specifically WKWebView, if it has the ability to leverage webgl, it is through the included version in iOS 8. It won't include any new tech, just the Firefox browser ux / features.

    Also, I would assume there would have to more to publishing than just exporting a web build. You have a custom ask/api I assume. What does that currently support/include?
     
  35. Not_Sure

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    Well, are you public or are you private? And are you still taking investors?
     
  36. AnthonyPalma

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    @ShadowK: Glad you brought that up! A few points to make here:
    • With WebGL/web games, only a small portion of the game has to be loaded up front before the game runs like a natively-installed game. New, large AAA games are definitely out of our scope at launch, but even with a 10GB game, only a very little bit of that (< 100MB) will have to be loaded up front and the rest of the assets are retrieved while the game is playing. This is already being done on mobile, where games have a tiny install and then pull assets after being opened. WebGL works in a similar way.
    • Most games we're looking at right now are less than 1GB, just as an FYI here. Load times are less than a minute the first time.
    • I say "the first time" because assets of a game are cached when loaded just like anything else in a browser, so subsequent loads are up to 80% faster (that stat comes from Unity's dev teams). Reused assets in scenes make that number jump up even more.
    • Your game is 10GB? Wow, I'd love to see it! Most indie games are nowhere near that size.
    • For saves, we've partnered with PlayFab to enable cloud saves, cross-platform multiplayer, leaderboards, achievements, liveOps, etc., so if you want to protect your users' save data, you can use PlayFab free of charge (we're paying the bill for Boondogl developers).
    @zombiegorilla: we've enabled code hooks that developers can access that will tell them what type of device the game is currently running on. So, if you want your game to run on mobile AND desktops, you can check those hooks and then load the correct assets at the right quality settings. Rather than focusing on desktop-to-mobile, think about how easy the one build philosophy makes it to support desktops and consoles. It's more challenging to also support mobile, but by all means it is absolutely doable.

    Also, sorry on the "no downloads" thing; we're referring to the games themselves, as there are no permanent game downloads on your device that take up storage space. Yes, you will need a thin client app from us on consoles and mobile devices. Desktop access will simply be through the website! REALLY no downloads there. :)

    We use a custom-built in-app browser, not iOS Firefox or Safari (or Chrome on Android). This custom-built browser is specifically designed to handle WebGL content no differently than current desktop browsers and is therefore much more advanced than available standard on-device browsers.

    And finally, you could very simply export a native web build and put it up on Boondogl if you want. Really. If you want to incorporate more features like pre-launch quality checking or any PlayFab features (cloud save, leaderboards, achievements, multiplayer, etc.), then you'd incorporate their functionality via their API and then submit to us. But, during testing, we've accepted 10+ builds of games from developers that are simple WebGL/HTML5 exports from their existing engines (Unity 5, GameMaker, Construct 2, JS) and they've run on Boondogl across devices without issue.

    @Not_Sure: sorry, you must have missed my comment on that previously :) We are a startup so we're a private company. We are not currently pursuing investment, but once we launch our private beta, we'll open up our seed round.
     
  37. Deleted User

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    @AnthonyPalma

    Hmm very interesting :), were planning to release a demo in the near future so it'd be interesting if a sub-portion of our game (probably around 4GB) would work on the platform and then we could test the full release later.
     
  38. Ryiah

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    You may want to put this or something similar in small print as a footnote on the marketing blurb.
     
  39. AnthonyPalma

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    Sounds great, @ShadowK! Email me to chat further: anthony@kermdinger.com

    @Ryiah: we'll change the "no downloads" line to say "no game downloads". That'll solve the misunderstanding :)
     
  40. angrypenguin

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    So do you also have some deal with MS, Sony and/or Nintendo?

    I think I like the idea, but I cant see what they'd get out of having your service available on their systems. More games available at lower prices split with more people, sidestepping their own QA and curation, and not able to take full advantage of the power of their systems (because WebGL can't)... what do they get out of it?
     
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  41. frosted

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    If you haven't spent a lot on the branding, you may want to reconsider the name.

    wikipedia:
    "A boondoggle is a project that is considered a useless waste of both time and money, yet is often continued due to extraneous policy or political motivations."

    If you name your service using a word that literally means a "useless waste of both time and money" it might kinda raise eyebrows.
     
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  42. Master-Frog

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    It's better than Hornswogl.
     
  43. Meltdown

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    How does this business model work with free to play games?
     
  44. AnthonyPalma

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    @angrypenguin: we're working on deals with MS/Sony now, with Nintendo as a long-term goal considering how closed they keep their platform. We're in the process of bringing Boondogl to Android microconsoles already as a proof of concept for console platforms that we will then share with our reps at MS/Sony. The value proposition is that we're not directly competing with their game sales since we're a subscription model; rather, we're a complementary service that brings more gamer value to their platform. We'll never land their big-name exclusives that make them the majority of their money anyway; we'll simply be a complementary service, like Netflix is to Xbox Video, for instance. We've talked with VP-level folks at both companies who are on board with the idea.

    @frosted: we're well aware of the meaning of our own name :) It's our tongue-in-cheek joke about gaming, as nay-sayers love to call gaming a waste of time and money. Anyone who opposes the name probably would oppose our value proposition anyway, and we'd tell them to lighten up!

    @Meltdown: free to play games would make the same minute-based revenue as other games on the service for core gameplay. We're still figuring out how we want to handle microtransactions, and we're certainly open to suggestions, both from a gamer and a developer perspective. We want to keep the user experience clean and uniform across titles, but we understand that free-to-play games have specific hooks in place to drive users to make purchases, so without those, the core experience may be different.
     
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  45. angrypenguin

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    You might not be competing for gamer wallets, but you're definitely competing for gamer time. And every gaming hour I fill with your $12/mo subscription is a gaming hour I'm definitely not filling with a $50~$100 (here in Aus) boxed product I purchase from them.

    I'd argue that you're also competing to some degree for developer attention. Why would I go to the trouble of getting on board directly with Sony/MS/Nintendo if I can reach their platforms via you with considerably less effort? (One answer to that is the aforementioned limitations with WebGL. Another is that they'd bring me far more brand power than you.) It's cool to see that they're interested.

    On another note, you say that you're interested in AAA titles...

    I see potentially huge value for developers who may otherwise be in the free-to-play space or the pocket-change space, because there it's all about getting and holding onto player time share. With this system you then monetize that via their subs instead of by filling their eyeballs with ads or raiding their wallets with microtransactions, so I see that as a bunch of potential big wins for everyone. Sweet!

    Compare that to, say, a AAA title like an Assassin's Creed game. Currently people happily pay $50+ for that experience, where playing to completion takes 20 to 30 hours, and most players don't get to the end. With the subs model one complete play through will earn somewhere around $10. So to equal the income from their current business model (not accounting for special editions, DLC, etc.) they'd need to get the equivalent to 5 times as many players who all spend the time to complete the game. And most games can't boast the length or amount of tangential content you'll find in an Assassin's Creed, so they'll find it even harder.

    The other thing this makes me think is that it's capping income from those gamers to $12/mo, spread around as they spend their time. As someone who routinely spends far more than that on games I may only play an hour or two of... well, I can see both sides of the coin.
     
  46. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    But on your service they're not "free to play", they're "subscribe to play", which is surely a different story?
     
  47. tedthebug

    tedthebug

    Joined:
    May 6, 2015
    Posts:
    2,570
    Maybe the devs change the reward system for ftp games so instead of paying cash they earn it by the amount of time they play the game?


    @AnthonyPalma , for local multiplayer games will only the one subscription be needed to have your friends over for game night or would each need one to login? Does the dev earn for each player on that one device or just the one instance? Can players that do have subscriptions all go to a friends place to login for local multiplayer using their account id's to earn any loyalty points etc & if so does the dev get any extra $?
    For online multiplayer, do you guys host it or does your portal pass it back to the devs own servers?
     
    angrypenguin likes this.
  48. Schneider21

    Schneider21

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Posts:
    3,512
    I think this is an interesting-sounding service. Regardless of whether it'll work or not, I like that people are trying to pioneer this territory, and at the very least, it sounds like @AnthonyPalma and his associates have a sensible strategy.

    Best of luck!
     
  49. frosted

    frosted

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    4,044
    Ryiah likes this.
  50. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    Jun 22, 2015
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    Ryiah likes this.