Bullying and the Unity forum community

Discussion in 'Unity Gossip' started by hippocoder, Sep 11, 2011.

  1. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Hi,

    When people post about their writing, or their latest creation, I notice the same virtual bullies pop up to try and shoot that person down, even though they are just trying their best.

    This behaviour is something I will not tolerate. I never have tolerated any form of bullying and I won't tolerate it now. It is trivial for me to gather a list of posts where you've bullied over time and present this to moderators and have your asses banned.

    Moving on, here are some guidelines when to critique someone's work and when to encourage someone's work.

    1. Is it it commercial? If the work is intended to be sold, then you should come down brutal but honest, because you're doing the person no favours by kissing ass. They will appreciate honest and clear viewpoint. If you like it, say so - if you don't like it, don't comment. But... if you see a FLAW or area of improvement then do comment and help them.

    People who are brutally honest get more satisfaction out of the brutality than out of the honesty.
    -Richard J. Needham

    2. If it is not commercial, and they are sharing their work, it is always better to encourage them to do better, not criticise them. Often, a user on these forums will be a hobbyist or someone doing something for fun and its personal to them.

    Had I the heaven's embroidered cloths,
    Enwrought with golden and silver light,
    The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
    Of night and light and the half-light,

    I would spread the cloths under your feet:
    But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
    I have spread my dreams under your feet;
    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
    -Yeats

    3. When someone posts their work in progress but doesn't ask for critique, it is still OK to add to it. You can suggest things that you think will make it even better, however people not your native language, or kids may take it the wrong way. That's their problem if you have been careful to try and help. It happens to me sometimes, I'll see a potentially good idea or game, and add what I feel may really improve it for them. Some people love feedback, some don't so try not to criticise their game at the same time as suggesting improvements.

    Thats all I have to say, I don't want to see posts where people think they have a right to jump on someone just because they are showing work to the world. Remember, for a lot of people, this is their pride and joy. Only be brutally honest if they are asking for feedback and its intended for sale.

    If someone is announcing a new product, NEVER offer brutal feedback unless it is asked for because that is insulting. A well done, is sufficient here.

    Less bullying, more community support.
  2. Dreamora

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    I can't agree on your point 2 but that primarily because you seem see critism as something bad and negative. That would imply that you forgot about the fundamental point and idea of constructive critism which is to bring the person forward and gain more satisfaction from the outcome which is encouraging.
    It sounds much more as if you meant flame or rant there (also known as non-constructive critism) which generally has only adequate place to exist and thats up the back end of the flamer / ranter.
  3. brown2na

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    I agree with this thread, I typically lurk but lately I've seen alot of harsh comments and attacks on people that doesn't seem right. Some threads going as far as having to be locked due to fighting...it benefits no one to fight on a forum, but make new comers feel as they should not post as they would be next to be attacked.
  4. hippocoder

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    @dreamora: There's a difference between point 2 and 3, and you've focussed on point 2, which is for entirely someone's personal project. This is the issue I have with a lot of virtual bullies. They jump up and down on someone's project and demoralise them without any gain or reason whatsoever, because the hobbyist in question merely wants to proudly show their work. There is a time and place to criticise and that is often lost on people.

    I am not the forum police, I am a passionate unity user, but I do feel protective of new talent and people showing their first works. It is a scary and emotional experience for many people, and I am also passionate about growth in game development. I feel it is a fantastic medium for people to express creativity. The point of my post, was to explain how easy it is to mistake when to criticise and crush those first steps.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2011
  5. Chub

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    I have got to agree with this post seeing that I am pretty new to the game development world and only a teen, I occasionally will have people making fun of my work saying that a 2 year old could do better. It doesn't particularly bother me but it does in some ways de moralise me and put me off.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2011
  6. CharlieSamways

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    First time ive seen you 'rage', but your right. Depending on how the replies go, not sure how long this thread will last :L but thanks for bringing it up.


    I agree with you on that, I hate being knocked down, you lose a lot of motivation to do more work.
  7. Zoe

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    This is why I'm very hesitant to show off any work I've done on here, I've seen some rather vicious people. And if you don't have much confidence to begin with....
  8. CharlieSamways

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    You know ill always punch your ego up. your work is amazing ^_^
  9. Zoe

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    But that's the thing, one person will say they love your work then someone else can tear it to shreds. Art and literature is very subjective so no matter how amazing something is, someone will always have hurtful words for you. And for some reason it's so absolutely necessary for them to tell you how awful you are and point out every little flaw.
  10. Dreamora

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    Well for "critism and flame" the same rule applies as for securing your assets: there is only one place thats safe and where you don't need to worry about it and thats if you keep it on your system which has no Internet connection and don't show and hand it to anyone.
    The moment you show it, you have to accept the feedback, be it good or bad, thats just the nature of human and "freedom of speak" in the age growing stupidity and social incapabilities thanks to TV and Social Networks.

    And actually out of my view you should learn to handle that early on instead of hiding because it will take time to learn the needed things to "filter" the meaningfull postings and identifying trolls right away to use the new boards nice ignore feature to never read the trollshit again.
  11. spiralgear

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    If you weren't in a robe with a pipe and a glass of cognac while you typed that you have failed yourself.
  12. CharlieSamways

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    That has always been my picture of Hippo ^_^
  13. larvantholos

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    Constructive criticism is good, but some people want to simply be critical, for the sake of being critical. False of belonging or social pressure can breed the wrong type of criticism for sure, and this being a community, certain elements will breed. There is an excellent core of people here tho, who just want to help, and are genuinely excited to see new things come through, and offer the right kind of criticism.

    I absolutely agree tho HippoCoder - Bullying in any form should never be tolerated. The more we let it go, the more it sends the message its ok. As adults we tend to sometimes think that bullying is only a problem youth experience, but the reality is, many adult bully's never learn appropriate ways to interact with their peers. It is also unfortunate that many people become bully's on the internet, because of their perceived idea that they are anonymous and can do whatever they wish. This is becoming less and less the reality however, as tracking software gets better, people who are tired of this can take even the extreme measures to file a lawsuit (we've seen this with a few celebrities and such in the last few years for instance).

    Regardless of the bad element, I enjoy being a part of this community, and I'm sure if enough people regularly say, we like being here, and some things we wont tolerate, it will continue to drive the trolls under the bridge, after all, with any community, we gotta stand up and say what we find acceptable, and stick to that, otherwise yes, these jokers will take over, moderation or no moderation.
  14. Patriick

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    That is true like many have said but I feel that people pointing out flaws in your work is good as that means you have not seen them yourself and you can go and fix the problem(s). Some people are a little too critical at times for no apparent reason though, sometimes it's good to be blunt about things but not tear someone's work down completely.

    I too don't think that bullying should be tolerated...

    +1
  15. hippocoder

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    The best way to deal with behaviour thats going too far is simply peer pressure, if nobody supports the bully, and tells him he's wrong there and then, then they'll eventually come round and do the same. It's the forum setting an example.

    Moderation is cutting off a tumor that can grow back, but positive peer pressure is a cure.


    (hippo leans back in his armchair and takes a puff of his pipe and swirls the mature cognac in his glass contemplatively)
  16. saymoo

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    But if you look from another point of view..(each problem has two sides)
    It could also help, if for the sake of point 2 and 3, the poster doesn't have a cocky additude in their writing/announcements.
    e.g. "best game idea ever" , "uber this or that", "years of experience and therefor" etc etc kind of suggesting titles, posts... you know the kind i mean.
    That generates high expectations, and if those expectations are not met, readers will ofcourse react in a negative fasion. (critisism)

    In the end i agree on the initative of Hippo! "Less bullying, more community support. " :)

    But, as dreamora e.g. said: critism is not per definition a bad thing. it''s more about the tone surrounding it.
    The blunt comments, without any depth/pionters to improvement, like e.g. "it sucks!" without anything added, is something we as community must not do towards eachother.
    We are not barbarians, but humans. let's act like one.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2011
  17. npsf3000

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    Never mess with angry hippo :)
  18. janpec

    janpec

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    Honestly when it comes to posting some showcase work i think that everyone in this forums are very supporting. That is why i like to post on this forums more than anywhere else, becouse people always give you support for your work. Bullying only appears on collaboration threads, honestly some threads written in 3 seconds really do deserve that, becouse it isnt anymore matter about them it is matter about people who join this project.
  19. hippocoder

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    That's because you do good work, and that particular thread just seems like a joyous episode of support. The other threads aren't so kind.
  20. janpec

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    Hehe true, that topic is really nice.
  21. Zoe

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    The difference between Showcase and Collaboration is that Showcase offers suggestions. "Oh, I like how that looks but maybe try this?" And Collaboration is "I don't like that."
  22. Aiursrage2k

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    Even the best people are going to get "haters" (haters going to hate -- as they say). You just need to "toughen up"
  23. janpec

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    I think that this is real problem that has started to show in past several years. The better you are the more agressive and bigger group of haters you get. I can speak in terms of games and music for that. I will give two examples: Call of duty from gaming side and Metallica from music side. While Call of duty is one of best shooter games ever made and Metallica is one of best rock bands ever to state, both of them have massive group of real hatters. I could count several more quallity games or bands with same story. Moral quallities of this world are getting wrong.
  24. Dreamora

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    Actually getting haters is normally a good thing, cause if you have them, then you made people read and think about your stuff. The worst you can have is a loyal horde of follower minions in "Lemmings 1 - 3 style" as that will not get you forward, it will make you stand still which basically is a decline to steep decline in our field.
    Nobody wastes time on "hating something" thats totally useless or meaningless, mankind has been trained by evolution to just ignore meaningless blurp as our life isn't long enough to care about every ant we stomp bascially.
  25. TehWut

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    Well, honestly i cant stand "MMO plz beginners" and I like to poke fun at them :p

    but yes I've had some of my work (of which I spent almost a year on) Hated on.
  26. Nateao

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    That the reason i don't post my game in the forum only ideas cus i don't wan to be demoralized i have add witch mean that everything you set will be with me for long time normal people will forget with in days ADD people will forget in month then they will stop making games

    I bean reading this forum for long now to be honest i don't want to ask anything any more.
    am looking for another forum where they will respect my opinion and bring me to be corrected without telling me an dome or stupid for making a comment

    Keep in mine my Language is Spanish not English so i will make mistake wen writing some thing;That will go for other that speak other languages and is hard for them to translate in to English .
  27. hippocoder

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    I just think haters hate because they want to drag others down to their level as they don't have the guts to raise their game instead. So if they put something down they can look better, and get ahead, despite being a bottom feeding prawn.

    There's an alternative path for haters though, get to work, and out-do the competition with hard work and guts.

    I completely disagree with dreamora's point that haters:

    I don't think thats the case, most haters will hate on something they've not even seen, or heard, just to look good.
  28. Nateao

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    I was making a game with unity island demo i have everything sort shield Ai character even animal for the village at the forum i was some 1 set to me that i was so dom for not making my own terrain so i tall hem i was learning blender to make my own stuff he set to me that i need maya or max to make a good game so i delete the game time past am working on a space game now.
  29. PrimeDerektive

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    If we're strictly talking about the context of this forum, then yes. I think Dreamora is speaking more to the publicity 101 "any press is good press", especially in the videogame industry.

    Personally, I am a hardcore gamer, and if I legitimately give a game a shot that happens to have been made in Unity, I will judge it just as I would any other game. Any criticism I might give would be speaking as a gamer, not a developer. We criticize the things we love because we want them to be better, no?
  30. KHopcraft

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    hippocoder and dreamora are both right. But with hobbyist projects, I side more with hippo than dream, simple because having haters is awful on mental health when you don't have 'fans' and whatnot.

    Good thread!
  31. gordonramp

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    Hate is a very strong emotion.. defined on Wikipedia as..
    'a deep, enduring, intense emotion expressing animosity, anger, and hostility towards a person, group, or object. Because hatred is believed to be long-lasting, many psychologists consider it to be more of an attitude or disposition than a temporary emotional state.'

    Hate can be seen to be the polar opposite of 'Love' and as 'Unity' is the utmost expression of 'Love', being a state of Oneness or undividedness then you could say that there is no place for it in 'Unity'..
  32. janpec

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    Agree with this. Getting haters just that people can think about your stuff really doesnt make any sense. Haters are destructive, if you want people to think about your stuff then people should be rational and judge your stuff by some experiance and avarage that is present in industry. And as i stated most of those haters appear on best stuff, which means that they are not constructive.
    You dont have to be hater to think about something, you can be completly oposite- a fan and still think about stuff.
  33. Dewy

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    I enjoyed the fact you quoted a love poem by W.B Yeats. Anyway I agree with everything you said.
  34. Kinos141

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    [​IMG]
    And there isn't a thing you can do about it.
  35. Nateao

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    ==============

    post remove by me
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
  36. justinlloyd

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    Bucket of crabs!
  37. jashan

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    Very well said ... and ...

    ... just had the same thought.

    Cool thread - I think this should be stickied and whenever some bully-punk comes along, one warning with a link to this thread. Another warning ... forum ban. Period. There's two aspects to this IMHO: If you're being bullied, it's wise to just move on - no point discussing with trolls, or trying to defend your work. But from the perspective of the forum moderators, you need to keep in mind that those people severely poison the community. Even 2 or 3 people like that can have a pretty detrimental effect to the community as a whole. It's sad to read that there's actually people here scared to post their stuff. That certainly wasn't the case 3 years ago.

    So - be fair, but if someone's really just there to get people down, send'em away. It's not that hard to distinguish friendly constructive criticism and destructive hate-talk. And if someone just had a bad day (happens to the best of us), an apology after the warning can show it was just an accident.
  38. tatoforever

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    @hippo,
    Really?
    Can i ask you something? Why are you helping only unity licensees (based on what you wrote in your signature)?
    You want to contribute to this community but only to those ho paid for? Awesome...
    Remember that Unity community is about 70-80% free Unity users.
  39. KHopcraft

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    If you read it a little more carefully: "I only help people who put special effort in or own any form of a unity license."

    If the free license person actually puts effort into the post, he will help.
  40. tatoforever

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    I've provably misunderstood his message but to me it sounds like: "You must put some effort if you are a Unity free user or you must own a license in order to get help from me."
  41. justinlloyd

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    Right. So what's the misunderstanding?

    Make a commitment, either mentally or monetarily, otherwise, GTFO! The money shows you are committed, $1,500 for Pro is not to be sneezed at. Throwing down that much cash means you can be taken at least a little bit seriously. You might never do anything with it, but at least we'll listen to you. Free we'll help too, but if you pop on the forums and ask a question that could easily be Googled, you're wasting our time and resources.
  42. KHopcraft

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    Me too when I first read it. But then I tried again.
  43. dogzerx2

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    Hmm, for what I've seen, this community mostly helpful and motivational, though!
  44. KHopcraft

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    You are looking in the wrong places.
  45. justinlloyd

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    It's a community, good and bad. Angels and arseholes. I'm the latter. Beware the fall of the Golgafrinchams! It didn't work for them, it won't work for this forum. Forums are not made up of rainbows and dancing unicorns and happy little butterflies, they are made up of people who haven't had their coffee yet, who got cut off in traffic this morning by the idiot in the red Ford Focus, who had to visit the Mother-in-Law last night, who just like to read their own posts on somebody elses forum**.

    ** Guilty!
  46. jashan

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    Actually "the right places" - it's wise to ignore the troll-stuff that goes on ;-)
  47. WinningGuy

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    I think the amount of haters is actually pretty low.

    But there are also commenters that may be coming from a different perspective than the original poster of work. And they should make an effort to know what the original poster is looking for and where they're coming from.

    If you're a professional, or at the point where you think you're ready to be a professional, then people should be direct and sometimes brutally honest in their opinions about your work. But they should also make the effort not to be rude. Otherwise, you're a troll. But people who are trying to become professionals really do need critical feedback.

    If you are posting something and you state that you think it's professional quality work, and want feedback, then prepare to hear some stuff that you may not want to hear. Prepare to find out that the part you spent the most love and energy on really isn't up to snuff. And take it with grace. And just like how commenters should try not to be rude, you should also try not be be rude when addressing those commenters. Otherwise, you're the troll.
  48. MrBurns

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    I am not sure if I actually met any haters here ;)? But what I have discovered (also sometimes myself) doing is to be too presumptuous... You see something like a person with below 10 posts writing about what ingenious results they have archived and want to show it off to all the world... And also a lot of misleading titles, which simply waste time, just sent you into the thread with a wrong "mood" so to speak. It then depends on how well you've slept at night whatever your reaction is ;). But I guess that also depends on the kind of people. I am a little emotional in that respect, for example. But if I see that a person has put effort into his work, I would never get the idea to flame him/her... But as hippo already mentioned, if something is a commercial product and it sucks, the responses are surely not as neat put as when looking at free/hobby results... After all, they sometimes want your money with every piece of crap ;). And when you see how ingenious some products are, there is room for being a little bit harsh when a person tries to sell something crappy for almost the same price, or at all xD...
  49. hippocoder

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    I never said any such thing.

    I expect anyone asking for help to make the effort to make it easy for me to help them. That could include a decent topic title, and a clear explanation of the problem, or perhaps a little source code snippet so I can see where they are going wrong.

    It eliminates 100% of the posters saying "derp, how i click mouse?" and anyone with a topic like "halp me!!!!!!!". I get 2-3 mins at a time every couple of hours on the forum as I take a break to stretch or fetch a drink. Do you want me to use that time wisely or not?

    I very rarely, if ever need help myself. I pop by to keep a finger on the pulse of the unity community and help out. What do you do?
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2011
  50. Alric

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    Perhaps it's not very PC and far be it from me to get in the way of anti-bully love, but if you can't take criticism, even harsh criticism then you probably shouldn't be showing stuff on the internet. Comments that are completely inappropriate are moderated already, this being an official forum. Quite honestly, making the (presumably false) suggestion that you will get people banned for giving their opinion on a forum, because you don't like it, is exactly the sort of behavior you're complaining about?