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Bootcamp into Multiplayer in 5 min, without writing a single code line

Discussion in 'Made With Unity' started by aidin, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. TwiiK

    TwiiK

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    There's some really talkative gamers playing that 1000 player FPS game apparently.

    4500 messages / sec per player? That's impressive. Kudos to those players. :D
     
  2. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    YAY! Thank you! Oh wow! Hahaha, I'm speechless lol.

    :p

    I'm pretty sure they will have used a script on a thousand instances/connections to spam messages as quick as possible for a stress test to see how much it could handle. Or they hired 1000 WoW players and told them to pretend they were in trade chat :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  3. kiranmaya

    kiranmaya

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    11759.748 $?
    i can recruit a few pro's to do networking part <3k
     
  4. 2dfxman1

    2dfxman1

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    You can recruit a few pro programmers for less than 10k? Tell me your secrets, because that's some really cheap programmers. Or are you hiring them for a day?
     
  5. scarpelius

    scarpelius

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    Except for the trolls nobody was bashing and discouraging them. And you cant compare your situation with uLink one. I guess you dindt show your work in a forum where the wast majority of people use free version of the main app. Most of us who know what programming is, respect and admire someone else work. I for example i commented on this thread because i am genuine interested in a solution to ease my work with networking. But while i can support myself during the developing of my game, i am not in the position to make such acquisition even if was proven to be a workable and viable solution.

    I am also puzzled by how some people think about selling. I was taught that money come from volume sell but most of them think that money comes by setting products prices high. While this is in some aspects true, you will have to be the only one who sell that. And people gone mad about your products. Or to have a proven position in market and orient yourself to the big business. I can say that neither is the case here.

    I will probably use SFX2 community edition because have the best options for me now: have all the functionality, is free and 100 CCU is much more than i need in developing phase. No offense Christian Lonnholm but this is what you must beat in terms of marketing.
     
  6. Tinus

    Tinus

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    Thanks a bunch, Christian! Time to dive into the docs. :cool:
     
  7. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Thank you scarpelius for this and your earlier comment. You are right to be sceptical towards new products and claims. And I too think that Smart Fox have really come a long way and is certainly great for getting your game going. However, uLink is a new way to make network games and we are really happy with it.
     
  8. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    I would not per se call it too steep.
    The problem is that the license as is targets the "independent of how many users you are going to have" projects, where some indeed might end, but realistically, there are another 95% of projects that need to serve far more limited player numbers not "infinite CCU". As such I welcome that there is interest to think about the topic :)


    The most hitting part, likely also goint to account for many never being able to grasp its true value (if all I saw in the manual and api really works as written there, it has some serious value - with uGame added to it even more so so having some information on it would be helpfull and attractivity enhancing to uLink out of my view) is the time limit.
    Fulltime teams might be able to fully evaluate and use it within 30 days, but Indies that do it part time, with a small team might not be able to use more than 30-40% of it (Unity Network + unrealiable RPC + full serialization, but no "load balancing multinode backend" and alike) at which point the price naturally feels totally out of scale


    Marketing wise, I would think that especially pointing out the easy porting of Unity Networking code to uLink (as you more or less replicate Unity Networking on your own uLink.MonoBehaviour) should be a major focus, its out of my view even more relevant to researching parties than the "no code MP".

    The "no code MP" part actually made me extremely sceptic about its professional usage potential right away, as no code normally also comes hand in hand with limited flexibility and the related consequences.
    In addition, a "no code MP" feature part is attractive to teams with little to no background and/or small staffs, both normally in budget ranges where the current Professional license price is far enough out of reach to not even evaluate it anymore. They would more likely build their multiplayer basing on M2H networking zero to hero, the M2H networking package on the Asset Store, Unity Networking Example, Photon Basecamp Demo or the SFS 2X Island Demo.
    So the marketing focus of this thread might actually have targeted explicitely the wrong userbase right from the start for the targets you have (less but more professional teams while growing).



    Engineer curse, isn't it? :)
    But as long as all related parties are flexible and willing to learn, it can only turn out the good way.



    Going by the manual, I definitely agree that its much more than "just another library" and capable solving various major hurdles that Unity Networking has without sacrificing the potential to use Unity itself as server and thus use the same data etc for verification and simulate.
     
  9. SeanP

    SeanP

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    This is amazing, I sent you an email, please include some more contact information with the license, my team wants to support you guys for sure.

     
  10. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    Ok finally had a bit of time to take a look. I can't find a place to download the full version without purchasing it, only the demo, and can't find where in the store to activate with the license you sent me. I'm probably being really dumb and missing something obvious (still kinda in shock Christian did this, hehe), so ya'll can make fun of me if you want. :p
     
  11. aspide

    aspide

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    I'm stunned... I've followed this thread with much interest since I'm actually in the making of the multiplayer part of my FPS and, whilst this product seems tailored more to MMOs than to FPS, yet I can't believe how much work the developers spent in it. I've obviously considered it for my project but the price tag was way too high for my pockets...

    Then I see that the developers gave away some licenses to people that have complained (some times constructively and some time not).

    Though I came late to have my free one let me express my admiration both for the quality of their work and for the generous attitude towards the community they have had.

    Kudos to you, Christian, and to all your team !

    Edit: typos
     
  12. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    This is how you activate your trail version:

    You add the licence key programtically, preferrably in the Awake()
    method of your server script:

    void Awake()
    {
    uLink.Network.licenseKey="YOUR-KEY-HERE";
    ....
    }
     
  13. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    AWESOME thank you!!!!! :D
     
  14. Schlumpfsack

    Schlumpfsack

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    This and...

    i hate you :D
     
  15. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    lol, don't worry, because of this I'm beginning to have idea's for an MMO, you'll get to have your revenge when I ultimately post the dreaded "so I'm making an MMO, need a team" thread *grins* ;)
     
  16. defjr

    defjr

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    Don't forgot to say you're only 15 years old in that thread.
     
  17. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    lmao, good idea!

    Oh and that I'm the Executive Producing Idea's man and have my own studio called Mom's Kitchen Games and it's not paid work but when we're more famous than WoW you'll get some credits, email me at unprofessionallookingaddressthatistheofficialcompanyemail@hotmail.com
     
  18. tobiass

    tobiass

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    The video is not available in Germany because it contains music from UMG :(
     
  19. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Thank you Tobias for letting us know!

    Mattias Norlander in our team played the guitarr in Komeda, the band whose music was featured in the video so he is a little bit ashamed that he didn't remember Universal owned the rights. We'll make a new version soon but right now I have to go and drink some beer after a fantastic day with many enthusiastic e-mails, posts and lots of love.

    Thank you all! I will continue answer e-mails and questions tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  20. minevr

    minevr

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    Wow~~too long,haha~
    unprofessionallookingaddressthatistheofficialcompanyemail#hotmail.com
     
  21. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    I gotta say Christian, for someone who said the following

    You managed to single handedly turn things around and made your thread and product very popular very quickly. Ever thought about a career in PR or Advertising? :)

    So yeah, I'd say that beer is well deserved, hehe.


    Haha. But but it's my real companies email and i m ake mmo game play games lol ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  22. Elmar Moelzer

    Elmar Moelzer

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    Not necessarily. If you sell 1 unity at 10000 USD you do have less work and less cost than when you sell 10 units at 1000 USD and much less work and cost than selling 100 units at 100 USD. Someone will have to process all the orders, keep the files, etc.
    You also get more support requests/questions, etc. If your market supports lower volume for a higher price, it is the preferable way to go, especially if you are a small company. You can always lower the price later.
    I have also learned that things that are cheap, are often considered "low value" by users of higher priced competing products.
    So it is not necessarily so. The question is, how big is the potential market for this tool really? Can he really sell 10 times as many products if he only asks one tens the price?
    I have not done the market research for him, but that is an important question to ask. Also how much would it cost to you write it yourself (translating your hours, or the hours of your employees into money)?
    If you are only an indie developer doing this on his free time, then the answer is "nothing", but if you are a professional...
    Anyway my post was targetted at people that were clearly hostile with the choice of their words.
     
  23. markusb

    markusb

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    I am wondering why I should pay 8.000€ when I can get photon for free?
    What is worth the difference in prizing?
     
  24. Landern

    Landern

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    So expensive, couldn't lowering the price so the indie's can get a handle on the tech could possibly give you more then what you get at the 10/7k price point?
     
  25. Landern

    Landern

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    I was turned off using Photon because of the documentation and the overall packaging of the product, it was like someone just through some docs in the base of the archive and stuck a crap load of folders into it and there you go....
     
  26. SeanP

    SeanP

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    Christian, gotta say you'r awesome!

    I think that a smaller scale versions that fit product sizes would be an awesome idea. things like
    individual packages that have max concurrent user caps

    examples
    uLink lite 100 CCU $1000
    uLink medium 101 - 500 CCU $5000
    uLink unlimited - no CCU cap. $10,000

    these are only suggestions, but I think Unity Park would see more sales this way, without having to cater specifically to indies, but also not being out of an indie studios reach.
     
  27. ilano

    ilano

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    OMG what a price!!!
     
  28. aidin

    aidin

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    The whole reason uLink came to be was after years of frustration with unity's built-in network. When we decided to develop uLink we not only fixed everything that didn't work with unity's network, we added every feature we could ever wish for and more. During the development we even gathered every complaint and feature request other developers made on this forum and elsewhere, and also implemented them in uLink. So it is as far away from a wrapper we can come. And as many of you have noted the API is yet familiar and consistent.


    I actually made that video on my spare time just for fun and to see how far I could get without touching the bootcamp code. The desire to share that video, and show what me and my team have been up to these past years, was the reason I made this thread. I completely agree that a "no code" or drag&drop multiplayer example some how implies that a tool is inflexible and unprofessional. Which as you have discovered is simply not true with uLink, the API is rich and powerful. And on top of it we created some very reusable network components for ease of use and to tinker with. If we think about it, Unity is also every visual, drag&drop and reduces the number of codelines you have to write, debug and maintain. Which is why so many of us have fallen in love.

    I've reuploaded the video without music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au9gWzycK9U


    uLink is designed for everything from scalable MMO to high performance FPS.


    I'm very glad uLink got to be share we so many today. It's like music, when you have something so beautiful and elegant you want as many as possible to experience it.


    For quicker answers to technical questions, jump over to our QA site: http://ulink.shapado.com
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2011
  29. darrelljr00

    darrelljr00

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    I would gladly love to implement it in our new mmo.. Price puts it outside our budget.. hoping for a price reduction..
     
  30. Tinus

    Tinus

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    After reading through half of the user manual I have to say: Extremely well done!

    So far I really like the explicit support for authoritative servers. I prototyped a vague Creator/Owner/Proxy setup a while ago with Unity's standard networking, and it turned out not to be so elegant because it was built as a layer on top of it. uLink does it much more elegantly, as it has everything in the correct layer.

    Looking forward to getting home and checking out the rest. :)
     
  31. shabazzster

    shabazzster

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    i guess its the cost of becoming your own publisher ,which is the ultimate and final chapter of every game dev... and maybe the price will come down in the future..who knows, but this tool is the cherry on top.
     
  32. shabazzster

    shabazzster

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    mac demo?
     
  33. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  34. psyclone

    psyclone

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    Damm... Late to a thread.. Looks like exactly the type of thing I need for a project I'm invovled in... But yeah 30 days is way to sort to even consider testing it...

    And budget wise... Well yeah.. That is steep without beIng able to do long term stability etc tests..

    Manuals and API look awesome, and it looks like a lot of though and hard work has gone into the product, and is probably worth the license fee.

    Anyway, I will look at the demos and see, and probably wish I could afford it.

    Jason
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  35. Broken-Toy

    Broken-Toy

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    Very nice tool! It has the potential to become a game-changer, with a slight addition to its marketing strategy...

    The price is perfectly justified for corporations making >100000$ a year, where the cost of designing and maintaining one's own advanced networking engine, even for Unity, is clearly above that price point in man-hours.

    But for indies... forget it, you can get a (cheap) car, including insurance, at that price! What I'd suggest if you want to target the indie market as well is to make a "lite" version but instead of doing CCU limits, split the features akin to the way Unity does. There are big benefits for you in this, see below.

    Free/Indie license
    No customer support, no large-scale MMO and security features. Commercial use allowed, NO CCU LIMIT.
    (I suggest making it "free" as a promotional tool and also to cut the DRM maintenance costs that come with a larger number of users).
    • 1 single SDK for both Client Server on any Unity-supported platform.
    • Made only for Unity (Free Pro) and wonderfully fun to use.
    • Cheat hack-proof authoritative server support which can be enabled in steps to ease development.
    • Network Components ready to just drag drop into your Game Object to keep you away from tedious network programming.
    • Supports both reliable (in-order) and unreliable RPCs both of which are type safe.
    • User-defined login data such as username and password can be passed to validate users before accepting connections.
    • Elegant API features such as user-defined initial data when instantiating GameObjects.
    • Automatically discover all servers in a LAN.
    • Retrieve real-time information about a server before connecting.
    • Automatic serialization for all types, including entire user-defined objects.

    Pro/Corporate license
    Per seat, per project. Advanced MMO and security features. Personalized support. Companies making >100000$ gross profit a year must opt for this license.
    • Made to transparently work with Pikko Server for incredibly dynamic loadbalancing and perfect seemless worlds.
    • Smart security with encryption which you can use only when you need it. And also to prevent man-in-the-middle attack by authenticating the server.
    • Build zoned MMOs using multiple server instances.
    • Supports P2P for communication outside of the already connected network.
    • Simulating traffic from multiple clients using only a single unity instance.
    • Simulating real networking conditions such as packet loss, duplication and delay on a LAN or locally on a single machine.
    • Redirect clients at any time in case server’s IP is moved or capacity is full.

    See what I did there? Splitting licenses this way allows you to maintain the professional-grade service to larger companies, but also spread the use of your product among smaller businesses and hobbyists. This is good for your business because more people using a functional, non-crippled version of your product, if it's any good, means more free advertising. Even today, word of mouth is the most genuine and reliable form of publicity there is. Finally, not worrying about purchases/time limted demos/DRM and customer support means you do not incur any extra cost for maintaining this "free" version.

    It's a win-win-win situation for everyone involved: you incur no cost of maintaining this free version, you target a second audience whom would never shell out the tens of thousands for a license anyway, and you get free advertising/recognition. What's not to like?

    My 0.02$.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  36. david.almroth

    david.almroth

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    uLink includes traffic control for reliable traffic. It works something like this:

    uLink sends custom ping messages every tree seconds (in both directions) between client and server. Based on the three last ping roundtrip meassurements, the resend timeout is recalculated. (oldestPing + lastPing*2 + newstping * 3) / 6 + a constant. The constant is default 25 ms. This resend timeout is increased when the resend timeout has occuerd several times.

    This is an old battle-tested algorithm that has been used in other network libraries, not just uLink. It is very stable.

    I can not promise that uLink traffic control for reliable traffic is better than TCP, but now you know traffic control is implemented. With uLink you can send both reliable and unreliable traffic in parallell.

    By the way, the uLink demo game Snowbox has been tested for iPhone and Android. Both tests were successfull out of the box.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2011
  37. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Thanks for all the advice you guys have been given! I am thinking them through. I'll let you know how we solve it but meanwhile you know that you can drop me an e-mail and I will see how we can help you and your project.

    I also wanted to give our world record attempt a little push here in the forums by writing a post about it but it turned into something much more - check it out!

    Quick stuff in the end:
    - You can now evaluate uLink for as long as you need, there are no technical restrictions even though it formally is only for 30 days.
    - Feel free to e-mail me about other stuff as well!
     
  38. the_gnoblin

    the_gnoblin

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    Hello!

    I am very excited about uLink ;).
    Nice to have a new player on the market.

    While 10k may be too much for real Indies, that's not much for any successful online project (from my point of view).
    No matter how low you set the price, a part of the audience is always going to complain... This can be easily seen all around when people say "Unity free hasn't enough features, my super project won't be successful without relatime shadows" \ "1500$ is too much for Unity PRO, make it N times cheaper" (By this I mean no offence to people who commented in this thread ;)). So, complaining can't be fixed - but it's definitely true that another marketing strategy for indies would be a good step forward to popularization of uLink.

    I like Erlang a lot, and the fact that Pikkoserver is written in it is great (for me).

    I've watched the presentation on erlang-factory about pikkoserver, and I must say the idea to use Erlang as a glue for game servers written in any programming language seems to me like a smart idea. Also mast demonstration was quite interesting.

    It would be interesting to see new projects made with uLink.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  39. nkr

    nkr

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    Wow! Your work is awesome!

    Hope you guys make an indie license soon for us mortals :)
     
  40. the_gnoblin

    the_gnoblin

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    Nice documentation!

    In technology overview on unitypark3d.com you have a comparison chart between Photon and uLink and it is stated that Photon doesn't support "unreliable udp" (which is, I suppose, not true).
     
  41. Tomo-Games

    Tomo-Games

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    pretty interesting. I wonder how it scales against badumna with it's pay as you grow concept. I just started reviewing badumna and now a new network engine is on the scene. Will it ever end ? Ha ha. The price here is insane. Maybe if they just take a percentage of the profit (as another option) like in the UDK games it would make better sense for some business startup. If your game never makes it to market then no harm no foul. But if your game is ultimately very successful then you should have had the start up insight to invest in the one off purchase. Christian I maybe interest if you say it truely takes less time to get things going. I just hope the server / game logic can be run on a linux host without needing a copy of the unity game running headless there.

    What is the required spec for a dedicated host btw? Or even VPS if possible. Like if you run the bootcamp demo with 500 users.

    Why choose Badumna?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  42. kheng

    kheng

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    Hi David is there any way we can get the snow box demo for the iPhone? Be interesting to see how well it works on the iPhone.
     
  43. psyclone

    psyclone

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    Just download the demo, and compile for the iPhone/iPad (assuming you have the license). Otherwise they would need to get it published for you to be able to run it
     
  44. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    We might have had outdated information - thanks for catching this for us! I'll have one of my guys looking into this right away. It would be embarrassing to have wrong information on one's own homepage...

    EDIT: And it was that embarrassing! Photon do support unreliable UDP (which is great!). We have now updated the comparison.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  45. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    If you think about it, what is different with uLink compared to most other network solutions for Unity, is that it uses Unity as a server. This simple fact in itself saves you from a range of problems and will most likely save you a lot of time. This then comes with the limitation that is inherent with Unity and that is that it will not run on a Linux server.

    uLink is stuffed with features and tools that are really helpful and you can see some of them in the video that Aidin posted, where he made Bootcamp into a MP in five minutes. You could do it faster... I don't think people care but with uLink you could easily cut that time in half if you used code instead of the GUI. But don't take my word for it, you can download both uLink and Bootcamp and have a go at it!

    We do not have any required spec for a dedicated host. Our friends at Game-Hosting are some real heavyweights when it comes to hardware (but not homepage design). They tell us that, if you can, choose Intel. Other than that, I guess it is pretty much up to your personal preferences and what you are use to. On a side note I can mention that we are trying to put together an indie deal that include hosting. Right now it looks like it will be 15-20% cheaper than Amazon cloud and much more streamlined towards games and game development. Keep an eye out for it because I am pretty sure that the specs that Game-Hosting will provide will be both weapon grade and affordable - worth drawing inspiration from when you set up your own game deployment.

    Bootcamp with 500 players! That is a great idea! The problem (I am guessing) would be that the client would not be able to handle the graphics - but network-wise, no problem!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  46. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Thank you so much!

    I have seen that you have really gone through everything and left a string of great questions and awesome feedback behind you - we are very grateful! For you guys that wonders what presentation gnoblin is referring to, it is a presentation David had at the Erlang Conference not so long ago.
     
  47. NemorisGames

    NemorisGames

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    WOW that's awesome, really handy :D
     
  48. Hangout

    Hangout

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    Haha,

    Not only one error in your comparison to Photon.

    As Photon is C++ based it is very well usable on every other platform and not only Windows.
    Furthermore why did you state Lobby Servers as addon, only because it is written as addon to the Lite Demo Application?

    It seems to me that the gap between uLink and Photon gets smaller and smaller.
     
  49. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Thanks for the information Hangout!

    It is clear that we have not done our proper homework on Photon so it is really good that we learn about this so fast. The idea behind the comparison is to just give a quick feel of uLink by comparing it with one of the most common network out there. But it is all pretty pointless if the information is old and wrong. We are going through it right now.

    Photon has always been a great way to make network games. They have nothing to be ashamed of
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  50. Hangout

    Hangout

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    That's no problem. I like the point that you give us an alternative product. Having a choice is always better. Is your license so that for a Game Title we can use as much servers as we need?