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Best/Cheapest Solution for MMO netowroking

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by Ibzy, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    Hi All,

    I am working on a casual style SMO (Small Multiplayer Online) with a small team and am looking into the networking side of things very early on (as I have read is best).

    Of the options available, what would people suggest? This will be a game which works very similar to MMOs people know and loathe (1 or many "worlds" (servers) which run at all times, players connect and have characters saved to that world, etc).

    I have developed a working client<->server system using the Unity Networking/Master Server setup, but would like the ability to have a world "always" running regardless of players being connected. Also (I have not tried this yet with my current setup) would need some players to be in different scenes from others (towns, dungeons etc).

    We have zero budget, but very low cost (£10p/m) solutions may be considered. I have found www.gamooga.com but am not sure if this will work for what I want to accomplish.

    Thanks for all suggestions!
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2014
    CarterG81 likes this.
  2. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    There is no 'cheap' solution for running an MMO.

    If you don't have any budget for decent infrastructure and middleware, don't even bother.
     
    elmar1028 and jonkuze like this.
  3. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    Love the constructive comment there pal!

    Fortunately I have found another forum thread with people with something useful to say that have already given me some options.
     
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  4. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    Good luck :)
     
  5. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Did it ever occur to you to NOT answer a question if you are entirely ignorant on the subject?

    How is what you said helpful in any way, especially since it is based entirely in ignorance?

    TLDR: Why should everyone not immediately place you on ignore?

    Could you link to that thread, for future reference? Very often I find a link to Unity's forums, only to find no answer to the question asked (but nearly always a "I figured it out!" indicating they have an answer :p ). Would be nice to
     
    DiscussedTree likes this.
  6. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    n1llaurado likes this.
  7. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    DOH! I didn't think it would link back to my post. A bit embarassing, lol.

    Delete it real good! I don't want people thinking I did this on purpose to link back to myself, growing my overblown ego :p hahahahha
     
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  8. BFGames

    BFGames

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    The thing is that meltdown is right. You wont even be able to get a decent enough test server for 10/month.

    What you could to though is to run the server on your own computer. But then you will start having connection problems and you cannot test your stuff probably. If it is a hobby project that might be okay.
     
    Meltdown likes this.
  9. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    @Ibzy just follow CarterG81's advice on how to Build your SMO! Since he seems to be an expert
    (an expert with zero MMO's built, or even a Multiplayer Game at that)

    and just ignore us experienced idiots like CarterG81 thinks of us.

    CarterG81 (the non-experienced MMO expert) will guide you into how to Build your SMO in no time.
     
    Meltdown likes this.
  10. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    @Kuroato - I think Carter's advice is more along the lines of "give it a go", rather than everyone else's "don't even bother".

    With a combination of your suggestions, Carter's optimism/encouragement, and a few others' help, I have managed to get a multiplayer networked "game" (more Proof of Concept at the moment) up and running using my own machine as Host.

    @BFGames - I have found a handful of possible solutions for servers starting at free (20-100 CCUs) and going up to tens of thousands at a higher cost. A game doesnt suddenly start and have 10,000,000 players trying to connect at once. As soon as the popularity exceeds the current licence, you upgrade as it is likely you have "some" revenue from it (Photon Server offers 500 for £25 p/m and then on to unlimited for £175 p/m - at 500 CCUs i imagine revenue should be enough to help cover some of the cost (have a decent paying day-job to help fund the early stages).

    But still - thanks for literally zero suggestions for MMO networking solutions!
     
    DiscussedTree, CarterG81 and Teila like this.
  11. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    @Ibzy lets say your able to pay $25 for 500 CCU for your Photon Server Hosted at Home. You do realize you'll have an extra electricity bill to pay right? or if you live at home with your parents, and you need to keep your server running 24/7 your parents might be asking you to fork up some money to cover the increase in electricity bill. Or maybe your lucky and don't have to worry about paying for utilities at home. Next Bill will be your ISP (internet) Bill, are you prepared to pay for extra cost of Monthly Bandwidth that will hit your home Internet Service? Or maybe your lucky again and don't have to worry about that bill as well... In that case OK you might have a chance here.

    If you don't have to worry about ISP Bill, or Electric Bill Running your Dedicated Server from Home on your Low Budget, then next and most important questions are how do you plan to Monetize 100 Users, or 500 Users? How do you Plan to Acquire 100-500 Users to Monetize?

    Is your Game Designed to Properly Handle Micro-Transactions without Killing the Gameplay? Or do you Plan to Sell a Copies of the Game (Keep in mind most MMO Games are Free-2-Play, that's the new trend, and it's not slowing down anytime soon).
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  12. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    @Kuroato I currently own my own house and am running 2-3 PCs at a time already, mostly through no reason other than laziness as I'm clearly only going to be using one at a time, and my internet contract is unlimited bandwidth (with possible limiting measured employed during peak hours of course). So these "additional costs" aren't a huge worry for me.

    There are an abundance of monetisation options, else how would any game monetise? Advertising space, subscription fees, IAPs, selling game "copies" (digital download), premium currency/accounts for F2P to name a few off the top of my head. The thing about a scalable server solution is that with the demand for more capacity comes the supply of revenue, thus covering the additional cost. Once it gets to the point of needing more than a high spec "PC" the solution gets moved to dedicated servers.

    Don't worry - I'm not just some kid who thinks he can make the next WoW, I have thought things through. And by "no budget" I meant that I'm not willing to fork out for proper solutions until the game has enough substance and promise to be worth it.

    The reason I edited my initial post to SMO is to show I'm not expecting to be running a full-scale, multi-million user game from my bedroom...I'll use the office :p Joking aside, for this to go from SMO to MMO would be a big step, and would require a spout of development to implement the move from self-hosted server to dedicated servers. The only limiting factor for me is time - if I didn't have my day job I would have 7x the time to work on this and develop something with real promise, but as I have to work (to cover my HUGE electric bill) progress will be a little slow, but with each little addition to the game's functionality I only get driven to do more.

    I will add a link to my signature once I've set up my development blog...
     
  13. BFGames

    BFGames

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    You asked for a MMO solution. Most of us who have actually worked with multiplayer games will automatically think on servers (and cost) as part of a solution like that. If you had asked for a code framework i might have answered differently.

    But if you are going to host it yourself you can take your pick. Most of them have a limited CCU free version. Photon, uLink, smartfoxserver(?). Or you could buy something like Bolt on the asset store. Not sure how well Bolt would handle an MMO in the long run, but for prototyping i am pretty sure it will do pretty well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
    Ibzy and Meltdown like this.
  14. tiggus

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    The bandwidth requirements are what kill it for me currently. I have a dedicated server in a colo and I ran some tests and even with a non realtime system(10 updates per second) I start running into heavy network bandwidth costs assuming 40-50 players.

    I would highly encourage you to run those sorts of tests before you go too far down the path and make sure your monetization scheme will cover it. This is after I optimized the crap out of my game protocol and utilized things like Protocol Buffers, MessagePack, etc. to try to cut down my bandwidth.

    The good part is I can easily launch as either single player or multiplayer so for now I am just putting the multiplayer on hold until I see if it is popular enough to warrant those multiplayer costs.
     
    jonkuze likes this.
  15. jonkuze

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    Have you looked into possibly just Renting a Dedicated Server from a Host Provider like SoftLayer.com? I recommend checking them out. Zero downtime, good bandwidth, good hardware, good support, VPN access to your Server! The Best Host Provider in my Opinion. Probably cheaper than running your own Dedicated Server at a Colo. Multiplayer is a big win and selling point for a game so don't throw in the towel just yet, check out some more options.
     
    Ibzy likes this.
  16. tiggus

    tiggus

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    I hadn't checked out softlayer, I'll go compare. The dedicated server I've had for years, I use it for running my own mail servers, and some other apps so it is not just for gaming. The other option I have been toying around with is the high volume plans from DigitalOcean, they are virtual servers but can get 8 cores, 16GB RAM, and 6 TB bandwidth for $160/mo which seems pretty good if it performs as advertised...
     
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  17. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    Answers! :D

    Good to see some options being mentioned at last, albeit above my budget for now, but something I will surely be looking into eventually.

    I'd like to hear people's experiences with the "starter" solutions that have been mentioned too, how you got on if you've used Photon for example - problems, solutions, dos and donts etc.
     
  18. BFGames

    BFGames

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    With Photon Server you have to write/integrate your own collision system and pathfinding among other. However it really is a great solution, but might not be for beginners. Ulink is another beast but i have not used it that much so maybe someone else can fill you in.

    I used leaseweb for a year and it worked very well. (Server)
     
  19. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    Also check out Leaseweb, they have some of the cheapest prices I've seen when it comes to server hosting.

    My preference is uLink due to the ability to run your server in a Unity instance, meaning you get access to Unity's full engine on both the client and server side. And setting up auth physics is a breeze. You can literally run your server in a Unity editor, and open multiple Unity windows, each being a client, and debug/see what's going on in each editor. That kind of debugging/workflow is hard to beat.

    The uLink indie license is 550 Euro, which is still a good deal. Their pro licenses are much, much more expensive. More than your budget I know, but it gets my vote.
     
  20. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    As much as I love it when trolls bring some kind of weird obsession with me (or more realistically a strawman of me) from one thread to a completely different one, I figured I'd give some perspective on this, so people can take Kuroato's posts with a grain of salt, given his post history.

    1) There are no idiots. There was only one person which everyone in the thread thought was needlessly negative and argued over nothing while ignoring all evidence. You can guess who it was.

    2) No one is arguing what it takes to make a MMO. Kuroato is arguing against an imaginary version of me, despite how I pointed out multiple times I firmly agree MMO's are very hard to make. There is no argument, yet he persists to the point of bringing it over to this thread just to...uh... bash me? Idk why, but it's a bit creepy.

    3) I actually have worked on a MMO (with a small team) in the past, as well as began developing my own (solo dev) before my current project. So although I am certainly no expert on the matter, I am not entirely clueless and I very often link to those who ARE experts on the matter of completing a MMORPG. I try to back up my arguments with sources. Meanwhile, Kuroato is pretending as if he has extensive experience working with MMORPG's, despite how his experience is only with multiplayer (not MMO). Please do not be misled by his implications.

    4) The portfolio of others, if it even exists, is not always public. Please do not assume that others have no idea simply because they do not link to their past work in their profile.

    5) Kuroato insists that his firsthand experience proves it is correct for him to say making a MMO is impossible, and that I live off the "stories of others". As if the tangible reality of others' games is somehow worthless, despite how our entire society relies on the knowledge of others' past works. Not just rational arguments, but Science itself is founded on others' tangible accomplishments... but not in Kuroato's world. This should give you some perspective on his attitude.

    Thank you, and sorry I felt I should point this out! I just didn't want anyone to be purposefully misled. (I find it strange someone is even attacking me in this thread, based on an entirely separate subject and thread.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
    DiscussedTree likes this.
  21. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    @CarterG81

    I said something in regard to you on this thread because you practically called Meltdown an idiot, but yet you didn't even reply with what is the "$15 Monthly solution for an MMO" since Meltdown is ignorant, and your are not apparently... OK where is your zero budget MMO solution? your more focused on debating with us, or too busy calling us idiots than you are on actually giving an answer to the person asking the question on this thread.
     
    Meltdown likes this.
  22. npsf3000

    npsf3000

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    As someone who lives and breaths networking, and can control the *whole* stack from selecting hardware, putting the machines together, wiring them up, setting up switches routers and firewalls, installing and configuring OS, developing a low level socket server, building high level framework with scalability and fault tolerance, setting up database, compiling code, building a custom IDE, project management etc... I'd have to say that CarterG81 is, in general, talking some pretty honest stuff.

    Building a MMO is no where near as hard as many think it is, and the 'you're not Blizzard so give up noob' attitude is toxic. Imagine for a second if we applied that to other games, fields and endeavors?

    On the flip side, building a MMO, especially one that is not trivial, is a large undertaking. Purely because you start running into a large array of complex problems very quickly - problems that take years to learn how to solve. We are getting better at making tools to make this easier (photon cloud is incredible compared to what options we used to have) but there's still a lot of work to be done - work I and many others are doing.

    The missing piece isn't how hard a MMO is, or how easy tools are making it - but rather it's a matter attitude. MMO newbies need to be led down the right path, rather than simply fobbed off with lies and excuses.

    I agree with Meltdown when he says:

    Not because a MMO necessarily needs a huge fiscal outlay (it can be done for $0), but that if your resources and options are so limited then you're probably not ready for the challenge. This is why I disagree when he says:

    Instead I say, MMO's (excepting the most trivial) are hard beasts to master. If you're unable to muster a few dollars a month towards hosting costs, then the best possible thing you can do right now is correct that deficiency.

    Be bothered, just direct your energies in the right direction!
     
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  23. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    I didnt call meltdown an idiot. althougb he is certainly not good. I was pointing out how his post was in no way constructive.
    He just said "no, dont bother. " The end. No explanation (it got better after I posted, obviously).

    What I said is an obvious statement. The only one here is you. No one else. You are just here to defend yourself by defending posts identical to your own and your toxic attitude. Also to bash me for some disturbed reason, even though you perceive a strawman of me (things I never said).

    My post is applauded as both encouraging and accurate. Why do you have such a strong emptional response to an encouraging person? Did someone take away your dream MMO?

    NPSF says it all.

    Lemme guess though. If I were to quote NPSF, an expert in the matter, youd just brag about your multiplayer firsthand experience (as if that means MMO) and claim I, AND I QUOTE, "speak and seem to live by other people's stories."

    Too bad npsf is other people's stories. I was so close to shutting down your toxic attitude and weird obsession acting against encouraging users.

    If only I had firsthand experience myself. Oh well...I guess I have to live vicariously through npsf, my experience working on a MMO with a small indie team, all the articles ive read from experts, the proof of sherwood, runescape, realm of the mad god, and scores of other mmorpgs... sigh. Damn my lack of firsthand!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
    npsf3000 likes this.
  24. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    still waiting for your "zero cost MMO solution" response to this thread since you said Meltdown was "IGNORANT" of the subject... might as well call him an idiot same thing.... anyway... still waiting on your helpful "zero cost" solution which you have not given because your too focused on debating with me... end it... let it go.. and get back to the question at hand in the thread... geez...
     
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  25. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    I'm pretty convinced at this point that @CarterG81 is not nearly as helpful as he thinks he is to others as it seems all he does is try to target anyone like me or Meltdown who say anything slightly negative and goes on psychoanalyzing us trying to make an elaborate looking argument in response... i'm not sure what he gets out of this all but by all means let the good times roll! ^_^
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  26. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Once more for clarity... I dont have a problem with meltdown. Please stop including him alongside your strange vendetta. Crying victim is a lost cause, ever since you started mocking others and bringing other thread's drama here.

    Please- just stop. Save face for god's sake. You are embarrassing yourself with posts like this.
    I am beginning to feel sorry for you.
     
  27. BFGames

    BFGames

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    Guys take it to private messages ;)
     
  28. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Carter your the kind of person I want to Play against in a game, we'll have tons of fun trash talking there and would make great in-game rivals lol! Lets take this off the forum into a Game what do you say? Do you Play MOBAs? I Like Strife...(http://strife.com) but i don't think there is a 1 vs 1 mode lol...
     
    DiscussedTree likes this.
  29. jonkuze

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    Na i'll take it to a Game... I'll wait for a good Competitive Game Suggestion then we can start a Thread on Scores and Screenshot the A$$ Kickings lol!
     
  30. kablammyman

    kablammyman

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    When i was working with unity at my old company we used electroserver5 to build our server solution for gaming. The company's main website www.meez.com sees millions of unique users every month using the same middleware, so it was easy decision for us what to use. I built 100% of the unity client and server code for basic stuff pretty easily, but programming the dead reckoning system and other networked game techniques are up to the programmer.

    I believe the fee for electroserver is flexible as well, but i'll let you check for yourself, since i dont remember.

    As for hardware, i couldn't tell you, since that companies main job is an online space for tweens and teens to do whatever they do, so the hardware was in place long before i got there.
     
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  31. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    Thanks @kablammyman I'll take a look.

    What some people seem to have misread is that I asked for a Best/Cheapest solution - not necesarilly free. I'm looking for value for money as well as scalability here. Photon sounds like it's what I'm after, but will need to get it fully implemented before I can be sure.
     
  32. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Ibzy, sorry about the thread derailing... but in all seriousness I would love to see your progress with Photon Server and how your game comes along with it.

    By the way, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it may be possible for you to begin writing your Server Side Logic using Photon Cloud but of-coarse the Server Logic would be hosted by a Master Client (first player to connect)... this way you can at-least get started and have a working Master Server to Connect Players for free with 20CCU using Photon Cloud. Although I have never done any Server Side Logic hosted by a Master Client that was intended to be hosted on a Dedicated Server then Migrate at a later time. I would think you could do this, but I could be wrong...
     
  33. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    @Ibzy I wouldn't get anything 'fully implemented to be sure'. I'd first prototype something simple using Photon, along the lines of your project, but just a very simple prototype. Then add in a couple of additional features such as chat, and some basic systems such as inventory.

    You could knock this up in a day or two. Once you have these working you'll know if Photon is right for you, and you'll also learn a few lessons and feel a lot more comfortable when adapting your whole game project.

    But I would avoid rushing head long into converting your whole game to work with it first.
     
  34. BFGames

    BFGames

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    Photon is awesome! I personally love it! But remember that there is a big difference between PUN and Photon Server.
    For an MMO you need Photon Server (100 CCU free).

    Remember you have to implement stuff like physics and pathfinding on the server yourself. You cannot use Unity's. However if you got any questions regarding Photon Server just ask away, worked with it a couple of times.

    Ohh yeah and as Meltdown says, try creating a small prototype to get a feel for it first.
     
  35. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    BFGames would it be possible to begin writing Server Side Logic but hosted on Master Client with Photon Cloud, then Migrate the Server Logic over to Photon Server at a later time?
     
  36. jonkuze

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    Only reason I ask is because it would just save some time and resource from trying to do so directly on a self-hosted Photon Server. Instead you can start prototyping quicker maybe via a Master Client using Photon Cloud... that's my idea, not that I'm working on that, just curious if it's even possible.
     
  37. BFGames

    BFGames

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    No not really. You dont even work with RPC's on the server for example, you work with operations and responses. So its not a 1 to 1 translation. Their cloud service is build on their Lite server though if i remember correctly, so if you know what you are doing you could probably do something smart.
     
  38. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    ah i see.... so no RPC's on server side... in that case never mind lol...
     
  39. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    @BFGames Could I pick your brain a little about this Server-side scripting? My current platform is using the standard Unity Networking Masterserver, so player 1 starts then others join. This is causing me a little issue when it comes to instantiating and/or leading/joining scenes.

    Do I need to create a separate build to run as a server, or have the same build with server script already there but not used client side?

    I am starting off with simple functionality that I want to definitely have (show what's equipped to all other players, chat system, movement and animation of players obviously, and sync'd enemies). I have all of these bar the last one in my current setup before moving the rest of what I've done into the game, but seems I may need to migrate this again to have it work with Photon Server and serv-side scripts.

    If it is easier/quicker @BFGames , drop us a PM.

    Cheers
     
  40. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    That sounds alot like the question we were just discussing above... seems your missing Server-Side Logic and according to BFGames we can't migrate the Master Client code over to Server-Side as they use different ways of communicating. I'm interested in the answer for your case so hopefully BG responds here. ^_^

    By hey if you ever wanted to migrate your current code over to PUN and use Photon Cloud I think that should be relatively easy to do, but I know your aiming for tons of players connected to a single instance. So yea, guess you'll need that Server-side code. Looking forward to the progress.
     
  41. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    @Kuroato for the moment, as corrected in my original post, I'm looking at "small" numbers (anything up to 100) as a way of proof of concept, but for expansion into 1000's I will need to migrate to Server anyway so might as well prove it server-side.
     
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  42. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    Which is where uLink is superior to Photon, in that the server is a Unity instance and thus fully supports any Unity functionality.
     
  43. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Wow! Really? That's pretty cool! I assume it will run the Server using Unity's Headless Mode with integrated uLink Network Library maybe?

    Photon is much more popular I think because they have a Cloud Hosting Service, while uLink seems to only Sell Licenses for their Dedicated Server which is fine for Ibzy's case.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
  44. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    Correct, you just fire up headless instances with the unity.exe -batchmode option on the fly as you need them, i.e for each game room as it's created in the lobby, the headless instance only really needs game logic and physics information, you can leave all client-side stuff such as materials, textures, etc out of the server build, it's really neat.

    I just use Amazon EC2 for running uLink instances, and you can script it to bring in more as you require based on location and demand.

    Photon does a good job of marketing themselves and being visible on the forums, uLink doesn't seem to care much lol.
     
  45. jonkuze

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    Nice! Well maybe Photon makes more money based on the Volume of indies they get signing up for their Cloud Hosting Service, while uLink is going after the big players.
     
  46. BFGames

    BFGames

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    Will write a longer post later when i am not on a tablet. But yeah ulink seems really nice, but check out bolt on the asset store, got some or the same strengths as ulink and think it will be great for prototyping and maybe even more. Gonna use it myself next time i actually have some time to fool around within my own ideas. :)
     
  47. BFGames

    BFGames

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
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    You can do both really. If your just testing stuff right now you can just have one player handling the server side stuff.

    However in the end you should run a headless unity instance as server with as little as possible needed, which a separate build is great for.
     
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  48. BFGames

    BFGames

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    Yeah PUN is not made for MMOs at all. Its great at what its doing, but its only for games with a few players per open session.
     
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  49. primus88

    primus88

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    May 14, 2013
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    I'm no expert in MMOs... but weren't MMOs hard to make mostly because of their Authoritative server? There are dozens of kits on the Asset Store, but none offers authoritative server. Without this, your game is nothing more than a simple multiplayer game. So if I were to make one... before buying CCU subscriptions I would check to see if there is any support for authoritative server.

    How about server-side collision?

    Also, from what I've seen, the actual work of making a MMO resilient to hacks and whatnot, makes the previous development efforts look like a walk in the park.
     
  50. CarterG81

    CarterG81

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
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    I'd be curious if there are any MMORPG's which do not have much on the side of authoritative servers.

    I mean, it's a ton of work just to keep a minority of cheaters from ruining the game. I'd be interested in alternative methods to dispose of cheaters (rather than making it harder, just resolve when someone cheats). One example would be a very expensive entry barrier. Let's say it's always $200 to enter. I know this isn't realistic, and is a stupid idea (potentially bankrupting a company) but THEORETICALLY it's an idea which might work. Then have a very harsh instant-ban of anyone caught cheating. The high entry cost alone would deter people from cheating, and also any cheaters who buy a new account after banned will just pay the anti-cheat detectives to help ban them again. It's a theoretical win-win.

    Unrealistic and impractical, but I did this example to show there are alternative methods. Someone would just need to think of better methods. Also, I'd be curious the actual development cost of all that extra MMO server security. Hourly rate of Programmer, Time investment, etc. If it were cheaper to hire a newbie team with anti-cheater tools, to just play the game or sift through players- that may be better in the short term than an anti-cheat system which is guaranteed to eventually be circumvented. (No one can prevent cheating, even with an authoritative server there are still cheaters.)

    I know in WoW, there would be people flying at 300mph speeds, capping Warsong Gulch flags and ending matches in literally 3 minutes. These cheats exist, but they are not common. I've ever experienced it once in my entire playthrough.

    Also to note, Planetside 2 does a ton of stuff on the client. Cheaters are theoretically running rampant, but without any proof- although tons are banned all the time. Once again, they decided to have less of an authoritative server for a "better experience" with client prediction of weapon accuracy.

    Just something to think about.