Bad news for web player developers in Windows 8

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by pkid, Sep 15, 2011.

  1. pkid

    pkid

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    If this has already been posted please ignore. Microsoft announced that in Windows 8 when users are using the new "metro" interface in IE 10 there will be no plug-ins allowed.

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/4816/metro-ie10-to-be-plugin-free

    This will mean that there will be no way have Unity run in a browser even if the unity project is compiled to flash because flash will not be allowed either. The only good news is that it sounds like there will be the option of using the "old" IE interface and having plug-ins. If Metro is the default though it might become increasingly difficult to rely on plug-ins. Since I do mostly browser development in Unity this was hard to hear.
     
  2. Fishman92

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    Unless they do native code, like google chrome has.
     
  3. jashan

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    If I read the article correctly, this only applies to the mobile version. So it's not different from iOS ;-)

     
  4. pkid

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    Well, any computer that uses the metro touch interface, so mostly mobile, but notebook/tablet combinations will get increasingly popular and those will probably use metro. Between this and the IOS ban it just feels like the big players are pushing hard for a plug-in free world.
     
  5. deram_scholzara

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  6. rab236

    rab236

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    I think he means no plugins are allowed on iOS.
     
  7. WinningGuy

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    All x86 based Windows 8 devices will have both the Metro environment and a Desktop environment. That Desktop app is essentially traditional Windows. And plug-ins will work in IE10 in that environment.

    ARM based devices will only have the Metro environment.

    In the Metro environment, IE10 will not allow plug-ins.

    I would expect that Unity games will be deployed to this environment as apps instead of through browser.
     
  8. jeffweber

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    This is what I am REALLY hoping for!!!!
     
  9. Jaimi

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    A version of unity that outputs metro apps might be cool. But metro apps can only be sold through the windows appstore, so I'm not so keen on them. They feel kind of clunky too. But maybe its just the funky tablet, or the prerelease os.
     
  10. saymoo

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    Indeed this is only applicable to the MOBILE version of win8 .
    MS has not had a significant/notable impact as mobile platforms developer since years (read: earlier windows for mobile versions where a big fail), thus win8 will most likely not be a big platform for mobile market adoption any time soon. Or even worse, the new windows vista "wow" on the mobile platform. Yes i'm very sceptic about the MS marketing attempts... First see, than believe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  11. MrDude

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    Death to IE already! Get rid of Old OS support in unity. Get rid go old GPU support in Unity and someone please write a virus for IE that is so bad that the world will never again trust it enough to give it another try :p ;P
     
  12. Dreamora

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    There are worse things than IE.
    You could by error use FireFox which since 3.0 has degenerated to a laugh in a box (so kind the open source reincarnation of opera)
     
  13. MrBurns

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    I would like to know more about that ^^?
     
  14. jeffweber

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    @Jaimi, I'm not necessarily wanting Unity to output "Metro" apps. WinRT includes (or sits on top of DirectX) Bottom line, I just want Unity to output a DirectX app... like it does on Windows today, but I want the app to be compatible with the up-coming Window 8 AppStore and with Win8, Arm-based tablets.

    Personally, I think the Windows 8 AppStore has potential to be huge. Something like 350,000,000 Windows 7 PCs will be sold this year. If Win8 sells even a fraction of that, then it's a hell of a lot of potential customers. As a thought experiment imagine the current Win7 had an iOS/MacOS style AppStore that you could sell your Unity3D games through. Imagine the consumer-base you would have. Yes, you have that consumer base now, but not in the form of a single destination app store that makes purchasing apps painless for the end user.

    Having Unity support WinRT (at least the DirectX portion), would also mean it supports Win8 tablet that run on Arm processors. These tables will be Micrsoft's version of the iPad. Again, I think this could be a huge market simply because the current Windows-base is so large.

    Unity will run on the "Legacy" portion of Window8 just fine as that portion of Win8 is backward compat with Win7. These legacy apps, however, will not be 1st class citizens of the Win8 AppStore or the new WinRT based portion of the OS.

    -Jeff

    BTW, I fully expect Unity3D will do this if it's technically possible. They have a tendency to be everywhere! Question is more whether or not it's technically possible and whether or not MS will help make it possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  15. Jaimi

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    @JeffWeber - I believe that as of now, If you want your app to be sold through the windows app store, it has to be a metro app. You can list your non-metro app in the app store, but they will just link to your page, and you will need to sell it yourself, handle the "in app purchases/trial/updates" etc yourself too. Still a good deal, but likely lose most buyers due to the extra click throughs. But who knows if these restrictions will be in the final version of the store.
    But yeah, support for winrt/arm would be cool.

    Are you at Build? I was thinking these tablets would be arm tablets, was surprised they were quad core i5's.
     
  16. Krysalgir

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    I'm not sure non-x86 archs won't have access to desktop...

    There have been vids about win8 on a nvidia Kal-El tablet, running win8 with Metro interface, of course, but also desktop.
     
  17. jeffweber

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    @Jaimi, I'm assuming the "Metro" rules will be relaxed for games... kinda like they are on WP7. You know MS is going to want a crap load of games for launch. I'm pretty sure they won't turn games like Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja, Need For Speed, etc. away because they are not Metro.

    This is why I think there is a chance Unity3D could target this new Win8 platform. It's got DirectX baked in and games surely won't be required to be "Metro Style".

    No, I'm not at build.. I'm at work. :-( Wish I was there though.

    The only problem I see is the DirectX in Win8 is DirectX 11. Hopefully Unity is planning to support that sometime soon.

    -Jeff
     
  18. WinningGuy

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    It's not just a prerelease OS.

    It's pre pre.

    It's not even at Beta yet. It's just a developer preview so devs could start experimenting with it.
     
  19. WinningGuy

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    The tablets that were passed out at Build are for development. ARM tablets wouldn't cut it.

    Visual Studio needs the Windows Desktop and the APIs that come along with it. And only x86/x64 systems can run that desktop.
     
  20. WinningGuy

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    BTW... I think the whole name of "Metro Style Apps" is pretty confusing.

    As I understand it, Metro Style Apps are any applications or games that run on WinRT. Even if they are games that don't look "Metro" at all.
     
  21. KHopcraft

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    From my experience with FireFox, after 2.0, each release would fix no bugs from the previous version and have more and more as it 'progressed'. Just an example: my friend built a computer a couple of months ago. He installed windows fresh and all that. Firefox being his favorite browser, is installed. Within an hour of use, it crashes. IE may be a slow piece of S***, but even it does not crash with an hour of use... I still prefer FF to IE.

    Luckily, chrome came out :D.
     
  22. Discount_Flunky

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    Windows 8 sounds more and more terrible the more I hear about it. Why would anybody buy it in the first place? In OS terms Windows 7 just came out, and it actually fixed all the problems with Vista, which is what was hurting them before, so Windows 8 is completely pointless. No serious developer of any software are going to switch, and I doubt anyone who really knows a lot about computers will switch either. The only people who are going to buy Windows 8 are the people who got to have everything that's "new". Windows finally gets their act together with 7 and now their going to ruin it. If Windows 8 doesn't bankrupt them I hope they learn a valuable lesson (one you'd think they would have learned by now) and only support things that are necessary and that work.
     
  23. jeffweber

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    @Discount_Flunky. I have to disagree. I think the new Metro based stuff is pretty inovative and interesting. I could see tablets running Win8 really taking off. Add to that an AppStore and the possibility of 100s of millions of customers and I think Devs for sure will be interested.

    I've been following the announcements pretty close and very few tech folks have anything bad to say about what MS has done with the Metro interface. Even many of the Apple focused bloggers are saying good things about it.

    -Jeff
     
  24. Dreamora

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    Yupp I agree, the new interface is definitely worlds better than anything MS has offered for tablet and touch ever before. The Win7 tablet and multitouch or the WinXP Tablet Edition are both a very bad joke as they are totally unproductive especially on a real tablet. its not focused, opted nor performant ... Win8 finally approaches this major problem basing on the relative large amount of research MS has invested into the WP7 XBox 360 UI and usability, which will over the next 12 months both adopt even more to metro (the x360 update is already close ahead and wp7 only needs more live blocks to be pretty equal)
     
  25. Discount_Flunky

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    I understand making a new tablet OS but they don't have to make a new one for desktops too. It's just a money grab, since their money grab with Vista didn't work (i.e. making an OS that barley works and expecting everyone to rush out and get it) I don't understand how they think it's going to work this time. It's takes a long time for devlopers to get used to new OS and understand how to use their new features, which is why destops OS's should only come out every 3 years at the fastest, unless there are serious problems with the latest OS there's no point in making a new version. The power of smart phones and tablets is increasing at a rate far greater then desktops are in comparsion which is why new OS's are needed so often, but now their trying to adopt the same strategy for the desktops, which makes no sense. Their plan is to have both destops and tablets use the same OS's which can't work. Either it's going to be sadly lacking for the desktop version or it's going to be too advanced for the tablets. To top it all off they have announced that they are going to make an new OS every two years which is WAY to fast for desktops. In fact it borders on being to fast for smart phones. No one is going to shovel out $100-500 every other year for the latest OS when another is right around the corner, and developers are going to barley keep up. Combining both OS's is not innovative it's just streamlining for the sake of lower development costs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2011
  26. hs1S

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    I use dual boot, Ubuntu11.04 64bit/WinXP, I would use Win8 'cause of clients, the same apply to MacOS. As a web developer I think the real problem are the clients, as long as I need to deploy web pages compatible with IE9 I will need to use Vista/7 soon, 'cause IE9 isn't XP compatible, so I will need to use Win8 for the same reason in the future, I mean, if MS plan to release an IE Win8 only version most of us will need to use it sometime.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
  27. flim

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    I am worry is it another Unity license need to purchase for publish on Windows Metro ARM platform?
     
  28. andorov

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    Self contradictory statement.
     
  29. npsf3000

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_7

    Released 2009.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_8

    Speculated 2012.

    I assume the rest of your rant is as well researched?
     
  30. Discount_Flunky

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    Not really. Smart phones are advancing faster but they not even close to desktops. There is still a huge tech gap between them.
     
  31. Discount_Flunky

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  32. npsf3000

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    Who? MS - it's a revenue stream, maintaining market dominance etc.

    Us? Better tech.
     
  33. Discount_Flunky

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    Ha ha ha! Better tech! Most likely it will be the same. Knowing MS it might be worse. Even if it is better the increase in tech probably won't be very noticeable.

    Your post also proved that this is just a money grab and is in no way an attempt to actually improve the industry.

    I have a question for you. Did you buy Vista?
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
  34. npsf3000

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    Given the new metro interface has already been shown - I take this as trolling?

    If you don't like the interface, don't get win8.

    So a biased reading of my say-so on a forum suddenly proves the business strategy of a multi-billion dollar company?

    Right...

    Yes. Now I await for your response.
     
  35. Discount_Flunky

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    So there making windows 8 just so they can have a new interface (which is most likely a ripe off of the I-phone UI)? Why can't they can't just update 7 with the new UI if it's that important.

    You are right. I'm not getting Win 8. Frankly the only reason I even swicted from XP to 7 about 8 mounts ago was because I had a 32-bit version and wanted 64-bit. There is really no point in updrading to the lastest win if the one you have is fine. There is also no point in making the next windows if the one before is fine as far as I'm concerned.

    You said their reason for making win 8 is for more revenue. I believe that you are right. Since they don't need Win 8 right now from a tech stand point, THEY ARE DOING THIS FOR A MONEY GRAB.


    Ok. Now the next question.

    Did you think that it's good software?
     
  36. andorov

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    What you're doing is taking your individual experiences and generalizing it out to the point where it sounds absurd. Windows XP might still be fine for you but others may want features from Windows 8. I really liked the new firewall they had in Windows Vista/7. I consider it to be pretty damn good and flexible. That's just one feature out of many I liked. Despite the criticism that UAW got, the security flaws in Windows Vista weren't nearly as bad as those in XP. Then there's DX 10/11, etc.

    Secondly, companies make products for revenue. That's kind of the point of any business. Pushing out new products that offer a different (note, I am not qualifying this with 'better') feature set than their previous products. ALL products are money grabs, that is the freaking point.
     
  37. npsf3000

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    So your business decision is for MS to spends billions of dollars developing a new way of computing and then give it away for free?

    Well since I and others are interested... doesn't that provide Microsoft with incentive?

    Ultimately if you personally don't want it - don't get it. There is no-one forcing you to use it.


    So a biased and false reading of my say-so on a forum suddenly proves the business strategy of a multi-billion dollar company?



    Yes No.
     
  38. Eric5h5

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    Whatever else it may be, it's definitely not a rip-off of the iPhone UI.

    --Eric
     
  39. Dreamora

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    Its pretty easily to see what it is and that it is not iPhone UI. Its an expansion upon the long years of research that went into the Windows Phone 7 Tile interface which recently (or soonish) will also be applied to the XBox Dashboard for example
     
  40. npsf3000

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    On the iPhone UI remark - do some basic wiki:

    Microsoft's design team says that the Metro UI is based on signs on the King County Metro Transit (Metro) [5] public transit system that serves the Seattle metropolitan area where Microsoft is headquartered

    Or how about this:

    Early uses of the Metro principles, such as the typography, began as early as Microsoft Encarta 95, and later evolved into products such as Windows Media Center and Zune. Today, the principles of Metro are present in Microsoft's mobile operating system, Windows Phone, as well as the upcoming Xbox 360 dashboard update and Windows 8.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_(user_interface)

    But make your claims netherthless because apple must be god. And they OS release updates for free don't they?
     
  41. Dreamora

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    Well compared to MS yes they are free. $30 itself would already be little but $30 for every single osx machine you have in your household is a hell lot cheaper. My last Windows upgrade cost me over $300 bucks (Vista 64 ult -> Win7 ult) for a single machine and even that only cause the swiss law forces MS to allow shops to sell the OEM licenses directly too if they build systems for customers
     
  42. npsf3000

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    Need to reread the definition of free...

    Now if I was trolling I'd ask you how much your hardware subsidized that OS. Or I'd point out that most MS consumers don't upgrade - they simply buy a new machine that charges the same for the OS regardless of version. Or I'd point out that at an office I did IT support for, the guy who upgraded from 10.5 to 10.6 suddenly couldn't use the big expensive printer...

    But none of that is relevant, so I'll keep the biased Mac bashing down :p
     
  43. superpig

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    While Flash might not be an option, what about tools like Swiffy and Wallaby that convert Flash files to HTML5 and Javascript?
     
  44. ugur

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  45. WinningGuy

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    I'm quite excited about getting a Windows 8 tablet next year. I'm just not sure if I'm going to get an x86/x64 or ARM tablet.
     
  46. nventimiglia

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    No. I just created a Windows 8 Meto HTML5 app.

    It crashes on line 157 of UnityObject.js

    in other words - desktop Windows 8 does not support metro.
     
  47. nventimiglia

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    Eeer...... Desktop Windows 8 does not support the Unity Plugin inside an HTML metro app.
     
  48. Avatar Ng

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    Good, Microsoft just vote themselves out from the Unity3D support ... I hope Ubuntu will became the factor gaming platform, seriously.

    I'll forget about developing games for Windows.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  49. MarigoldFleur

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    Well that was a pointless necro. You can still use the Unity player from the desktop browser, just not the metro one. Feel free to just ignore the largest market though I guess!
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  50. jc_lvngstn

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    I've come to realize that for some, hating MS (or Apple, or Google) is valid hobby. Regardless of the good points of said company.