Any thoughts on the recent Phil Fish Zoe Quinn debacle?

Here, some articles by the Dames in Games community on the toxicity of modern social-justice advocates. (which was linked from this blog post: https://dmg.to/blog/39 )

https://medium.com/@rupazero/a-more-peaceful-2014-8cb3596a29bf
http://quinnae.com/2014/01/03/words-words-words-on-toxicity-and-abuse-in-online-activism/
http://www.mattiebrice.com/on-anger/
http://papierhache.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/badass/

From the mouths of game developers themselves.

And the reason the shift to the toxic mentality is because that is what's at the root of this entire thing... Well, that and entitlement issues but still... So, it's a very valid concern that these social justice types are causing toxicity in the community.

Oh, and when you dismiss another industry for behaving in an unethical manner that doesn't really help much. I'm equally disgusted at the culture in Hollywood that the casting couch is even a thing. Though that seems to becoming less of a thing as more and more stars are being honest and open about their experiences in tinsel-town... So, that industry is starting to shape up... But it's rather unsettling to read people dismiss the unethical nature of games journalism with "meh, hollywood's been doing this for ages." That is not the point... It's not that it is a thing, it's that it shouldn't be a thing that's getting people riled up.

 

Here are my thoughts on Social Justice and "Social Justice Warriors"

There is either justice or there is injustice.
Is there hyper sexualization of women in games?

I would have to say so. Can we do somthing about it? Yeah... But It will take time as most games are not built over night.

Anyway back on topic -

I got in touch with a few people.that might know something about game devs having an drop box full of content for a game deleted. I think I was mistaken.

 

You know what the most sad and depressing thing about this whole scandal is?

Unity...

They're "Diamond partners" with the GDC website/team which is a part of the Gamasutra network... So, in a sense they're kinda siding with the people that are calling gamers "childish" "misogynists" and "spoiled babies" and all other kinds of horrible things.

Now, I'm not going to deny that gamers have their own brand of village idiot... But when you side with a group of people that are painting the entire community of gamers... the people that put them on the map in the first place... as a "bunch of spoiled children throwing tantrums" when we're insulted repeatedly it feels like a pretty sharp knife in the back.

I knew a boycott would be hard but... Eh tu, Unity?

here's the link... http://www.gdconf.com/expo/diamondpartner.html

 

• Getting blacklisted by media, because someone doesn't like you (TFYC)
• Getting branded a sexist, misogynist or whatever for poorly justified reasons (Dragon's Crown developers)
• Getting harassed for not sharing their views (JonTron and LOTS of other people)

Three things that can have a devastating effect on your career and - by extension - life. Getting your name/game out there without any media coverage can be extremely difficult. Depending on the size of your project, this can break your neck.
With those people being the hypocrites they are, getting branded a sexist in front of such a large audience can also lead to sales reduction. The media has proven to be quick when it comes to tear people they don't like a new one.
I don't think I need to explain what effects harassment can have on you.

"It's bad, but it has always been like that, therefore it's okay and let's just not bother."
This was, is and will always be a poor justification.

Only if two things are given:
We can freely discuss and that people are shown both sides of the story. Neither of which are the case in this scandal.

"It's bad, but others do it, therefore it's okay and let's not bother."
A slight variation, but still a poor way of thinking.
Look, those big scandals are our best chance for changing things. Personally, I don't give a crap about the classical problem that is journalists getting paid (Doritogate anyone?). It doesn't work on me, since I don't pre-order games.
I do have a problem with innocent people getting harassed though. Instead of trading their integrity for money, they trade the well-being of innocents for clicks. That's unacceptable.

I'd love to, but I live in Germany...

 

/agree

 

To be honest I am trying to stay out of, and not comment on this whole issue. The reason for that is quite simple if I say something bad about one side I am working for the other side, if I say something bad about the other side then I am working for them. There is no middle ground, both sides tout this and to be honest depresses me. I thought the industry was above it.

Why must I be part of a side? am I not allowed to have my own opinion or criticisms on both?

 

You are either with the mob or you are against them. That's what happens when people get a mob going and that's the reason why mobs have gone out of fashion in the real world.

It's no longer about with whom Zoe Quinn has slept or not slept (and like I said before, I don't give a four-letter word about that), it's also about how a discussion in the video game scene can and should be led. As far as I observed the whole debacle, a promising indie dev who might have made some questionable choices in her personal life (and like I said before, that's nobody's business) has been driven out of the scene because of a bunch of harassment, lies and conspiracy theories. Same thing that happened before with Phil Fish, only this time it blew up even more because Quinn is a woman. That should not be tolerated, and in the question if we, the gaming community, want to be like this, there really is no middle ground. Tolerance wins or everybody loses.

 

Because assholes exist on both sides. It's as simple as that.
If you start defending Quinn, Fish and the rest, with a solid argumentation to back it up, I'd have no problem with that. However, you can bet that someone, somewhere will start a drama over this.
Of course this goes both ways.

 

That is a contradiction.

The ONLY reason these people are famous is because they have really big mouths, and they don't seem to want to bother with hiding their controversial opinions behind anonymity. They could have developed infinitely better games and NOBODY would know their names. They could have posted their views anonymously and NOBODY would know their names. I'm just going to assume that they prefer to be in the positions they are in now than to be unknown.

 

You mean, if you make a point with your face and your real name instead of just arguing as a sockpuppet, it is your own goddamn fault if you are threatened with rape?

You mean, a culture in which the only way to express opinions without getting harassed for it is to hide is a good thing?

Seriously?

 

No, if I meant that I would have just said it. Anonymity.

I didn't judge it one way or the other, it's just an observation of reality.
You can go to jail for voicing certain opinions, never mind being harassed with empty threats.

 

I personally quite enjoyed a lot of Phil Flash's work.

 

If I were going to threaten to kill your family, how exactly would you know it was an empty threat?

If a lot of people would threaten the same thing, would that make judging which threats are real harder for you? I'd wager it would.

There's a reason the law does not only ban killing or raping people but also threatening to do so. And there's a difference between going to jail and being harassed by the public - one is done by the state, based on (hopefully) democratically-made laws, and one is done by a mob. Like I said before, mobs are not really a good thing.

 

Went and had a look at the game Depression Quest. Should be called fedup quest.

Possibly her heart was in the right place when she made this but what it actually showcases is a low grade sort of ennui that generally dogs the human condition.

I think why many people believe it does show depression is because most of us have these sort of downbeat moments, and the game reinforces the general public perception of depression and much of the supportive commentary on the game comes from people that can relate to what is being shown here.

The general disliike that seems to have erupted around her comes from many that went through severe clinical depression and survived it. Depression Quest does not show clinical depression it does kind of come across as the brain child of someone so self-involved that she thinks working in a dull job or not having one's dreams come true causes depression. In this sense Depression Quest actually promotes the opposite of what the developer claims. Don't believe me listen to this review

 

While i agree with your point I wouldn't say that no games about subjects like these should be made. Talking about an issue for the sake of talking about an issue is circular logic.. and that inevitably leads to a stack overflow.
However.. issues and pieces of the human condition can be explored in games in a subtle manner. through mechanics, symbolism, and other techniques that would mask the topics to an unobservant onlooker.

I'm currently working on a game that explores social 1)Darwinism and 2)Narcolepsy and while that might sound like a horrible idea.. people don't notice.. the first one.. the second one is an integral gameplay element making the exploration of the first, overarching one harder. This exploration of "walk over corpses or become one yourself" in combination with the added pressure of a handicap is something i feel strongly about. Tho i never approach the subject verbally in the game. All of it is explored through gameplay; this way people can just play a fun little game or if they like they can see the underlying metaphors... and once that happens the process of thinking about these topics is kicked off; in a much higher velocity than if i just talked about it.. because they discovered it themselves.

sidenote.. funnily enough, most of the "socially aware" people that always complain about this and that and link you to charities and whatnot.. they don't realize the metaphors driving the gameplay.. most of the "quite" people however do.. so i think i'm going in the right direction.

My point being.. the interactive medium of "games" is a great way to get people engaged and once they are you can get em thinking about stuff. If done right this can be something great. Unfortunately often it is not so i do understand your stance all too well.

 

No-one is saying games cannot deal with this sort of stuff. It is how it is dealt with. Also it is not good enough to use the games to start a conversation about a subject unless it is the right conversation.

Depression Quest is a perfect example of bias. A great many people that see that game believe it deals with depression. It doesn't. It promotes the standard narrative of depression. There are many such narratives when it comes to mental illness because we all get fedup and call it depressed, we all at sometime were overly neat and would laugh and say we've got OCD, or at some point we believe someone is watching us and we feel paranoid.

It's similar to the word Theory as used by scientists which does not mean the same thing as the word theory in general usage and simply serves to confuse people. Same with clinical definitions of mental illness. The public in general understand the word depression but the clinical definition is a million miles from common usage.

The common usage of these terms lead towards cognitive bias and it is this bias and these standard narratives that do so much damage to people.

 

If you're on twitter... look at the #NotYourShield tag.

That's all I'm gonna say.

 

As someone who has recently dealt with a depressive episode, I'd like to hear what you think is the "standard narrative" about depression and what it actually is?

I felt like the game tackled the topic rather well, but only took a quick glimpse at it, because, you know, I'm kinda fed up with mental illnesses right now.

 

First off, I have Gilles de Tourettes and have had since the age of 7, I'm now 49. This disorder was never understood when I was a child so treatment was not available.

I have dealt with depression from around this time. Depression is one of the secondary symptoms of Tourettes as is OCD. The latter develops specifically because of the stress caused by Tourettes, by the age of 19 the OCD changed into pure O OCD. The Tourettes was never diagnosed until age 30 when I had a smidgen of a crisis which involved clinically diagnosed depression. It took 23 years to go from a depression slightly worse than the backdrop ennui to full blown clinical depression, so when I played Depression Quest I recognised the elements very clearly and I recognised the standard narrative of what depression is.

I know the whole Tourettes thing is this whole crybaby song and dance routine and is hard to deny it's comic potential as I'm often reminded.

I'm not belittling anyone's experience of depression but if someone had experienced severe clinical depression they could not produce the sort of game Zoe Quinn has. My objection is that this is the whole extent of what she believes depression to be and that you will get better if you do A,B or C. It also represents a certain narrative of what depression is. I'm not stating that one needs special circumstances or some sort of disorder to get to the stage of clinical depression, no-one does, it can be a cascade of events in every part of one's life, but from even the worst case scenario shown in that game it can get much, much worse, so bad in fact that even if one goes through and survives it, one never fully recovers. That's a narrative no-one wants to deal with and when it is pointed out is generally dismissed.

Still for all that, she has been attacked in a way that should not be going on it is a very puerile and the fallout has played into her hands in a way. It's not possible to have a discussion about that game at all because it will just be shut down and just assumed to be a sexist attack on her.

 

I think his/her argument is that anyone can just say they are "depressed" but that someone saying that, and someone clinically depressed and diagnosed as such, may be in very different boats from one another.

Regarding the merits of said game, I do think there are far better games that aren't getting attention because of not being in the "in" crowd. I think just about anyone could find more worthy indie games that deserve the spotlight over Depression Quest. Look at Actual Sunlight, you can clearly see the amount of work and thought that went into it, yet, how many people are talking about it? How many articles? I had never heard of it until this came up.

Yet a simple Twine game made by 3-4? people is mentioned out of a crowd of green lit indies and singled out as if its a special snowflake? I think most people can see through that to what it really is. Regardless of your thoughts on all this drama it would be foolish to think it wasn't getting preferential treatment.

 

The value of a game is not in its engine or the number of people working on it.

Depression Quest is at least noteworthy for two things: A) Being in a genre that doesn't really get too much attention these days and B) tackling a topic that is seldom explored in video games. YMMW on if that makes it worthy of a spotlight on Steam, but Steam is not a democracy and if Valve feels a certain project should be highlighted, they have the right to highlight it.

Also, Depression Quest is not about people that say they are depressed, it is about a depressed person. As in, the mental illness. So I don't see the point.

Oh, sorry @sicga123, the forum made me overlook your post. Sorry to hear that, really. But while Depression Quest might not match your experience with depressions, I felt kind of understood while looking at it. I have actually been in clinical treatment and am currently on antidepressants, so I'm pretty sure I'm not just a crybaby either . Or I am and my psychatrist has been lying to me. Who knows.

(As I said before, I didn't play too much of DQ, because it "got to me" really fast. So take my comments with a grain of salt, please.)

But I don't think a game can really match everybody's experience with psychic illnesses. I have met many other depressed people and everybody has his own story, his own symptoms et cetera. One thing I'm certain about is that raised awareness for the whole problem is a good thing, because many people still stick to the old "you are depressed? Well, just snap out of it!" routine.

If we can't agree on if DQ is actually a good game, can we just agree on that it's a nice thing somebody made it and move on to more important stuff?

 

Not to belittle your tourettes or anything but one side of it that is F***ing hilarious

 

I agree. When I played it it seemed almost too... how do I put it... consistent... Granted, my own is from PTSD and years of bullying so there are days where the depression is/was frighteningly deep and days where it was tolerable... Over all though the depiction felt like the kind of description you'd read in a text book and didn't really go over the sways in mood very well... And lastly it also did seem to come across as a bit preachy at times... Preachy doesn't make for good games... In fact, preachy tends to result in a lowered engagement on the player's behalf which is something that games are supposed to strive for, right? (it doesn't have to be "fun" per-se, but it should be engaging.)

That's I agree with... I don't really like it much (engagement, preachy, outlined above.)

Getting to the twitter hashtag issue... Which is what seems to have resulted in all of this... I would like to see the media that is representing us to not allow toxic individuals that would insult the people that I hope to make my customers, my friends and peers and myself, allowed to so blatantly insult and demean us.

And the worst thing is... I had the chance to speak to some of them personally via social media and when I asked them why they would say such a thing and politely ask for them to acknowledge that what they had said had seriously hurt me... I was abused, given death threats and even told to take my "Neckbeard pasty balls, stick them in a blender and hit the switch." For what, for asking for them to hear my side of the story to express how what they had said had hurt me deeply? (Remember, I suffer from depression... So, some of those interactions sent me to a very dark place indeed.)

This is emblematic of a media that is so grossly out of touch with it's audience and I dare say reality as well... And to be fair, there is some evidence that there are "False flag" operations where threats that some of these well-known personalities are recieving... And posting about on social media... are made by their own hand. That smacks of an inability to treat the issue maturely and given that these are grown adults here, suggests that they need help. But they are chairs of awards organizations (of which Unity is or was a sponsor... I do not know if they remain as sponsors because there has been no information from the Unity team either way on this issue)

The worst thing about this is... When the games I am making are finally shipped I am unsure whether I will be able to have them gain traction with an unbiased audience. One of my games is quite typical in that it has violence in it... These are all themes that I have been told by this media are suddenly taboo... I completely understand wanting games to have more representation of various groups or themes but I do not think that that should be a requirement. And if a game is called "Bad" by these people, that can sabotage us. So, they hold an enormous level of institutionalized power over us and with their influence and a clearly deeply biased attitude, I'm also with quite a few other developers in that I am questioning whether I want to even continue. I don't want to continue wasting my time on somehting that will result in no profit... That would be like throwing away more than five years of work.

I will state, however, that this hashtag is helping me realize that it IS still worth it... They seem to be wanting to push for accountability and a removal of clearly hostile biases in the games media.

But the abuse I've recieved... And it is abuse that me and many other gamers and developers are facing... It is simply not acceptable... And the cherry on top? These people that are supposed to be representing our interests in the media are ENCOURAGING this behaviour. I am not lying or being dramatic, they are condoning it because they WILL be quick to rush to the side of people making DEATH THREATS and accuse me of being misogynist or a "Filthy white manchild" for daring to silence them or demand that they apologize.

This is NOT acceptable. this is not what games were, are or were meant to be. You should be free to pursue whatever interests you like (as long as they are not illegal, of course) and make whatever games you like and ENJOY whatever games you like. That's what makes gaming as great as it is...

So, I guess I have to say it... I am a gay male, I am genderfluid and these people that are claiming to say they represent my interests have been dismissing, ignoring and erasing my very identity on the alter of self-righteous anger and I will not let them use MY VERY IDENTITY as a shield to defend their loathsome behaviour. I have had enough and this bullying (and it IS bullying that these authors are doing) must end immidiately.

I am sorry for the very lengthy post... as many of us here I am quite passionate about games and I will not be censored or bullied anymore.

 

It is invariably the case that anyone that starts a sentence with ' I don't mean to...' does mean to do that exactly. Pity we can't speak face to face it would be nice to hear you explain how a person born with all the incredible gift of intelligence and potential can throw all that away and become what you so obviously are.

This is the problem with the internet, everyone is quite willing to write things on forums they wouldn't have the guts to say to someone's face. Personally I always make it a rule never to write anything I wouldn't say looking someone in the white's of the eye. So I tend not to abuse people as you have just done.

 

That games media has outed itself as the enemy and exploiter of gamers is really a great development for indie game devs.

Games media will soon find out that they have no leverage against gamers, and that it is the gamers that have the leverage to completely destroy and replace their industry at will with something more palatable

This is the last groan of a dying industry. The only thing they had to look forward to was a slow demise, and all they have done here is sped that up.

"Hell... it's about time."

 

I haven't played it, but is it "the whole extent" or "a possible experience"? I've never made anything that included everything I wanted the first time around.

 

Is that similar to when someone says "I'm not belittling anyone's experience of depression " and then does exactly that?

 

Perhaps you should try to read and comprehend. I wasn't belittling anyone's experience of depression. The whole point of that post was to point out that depression can be much worse but this game doesn't deal with that at all. It deals with an internalised depression that comes about for all of us because of the stresses of everyday life and things going bad which so often happens. It doesn't deal with depression that arises out of abusive behaviour of others or out of verbal and physical assault or depression that arises out of a myriad of other reasons. Neither Zoe Quinn nor the people defending her corner are willing to accept that. We can all get to severe clinical depression because our lives turn a bad corner, we lose our job, and/or a loved one, we're in abusive relationships.

This game covers that sort of depression and it's in no way belittling peoples depression to state that maybe there is another narrative about depression and one shouldn't just accept this woman's one POV.

This is the problem in a nutshell. Most people that play that game will see depression at work and agree with her view of it, but there's another whole aspect of depression that is forced on the sufferers by abusive behaviour of others but if I and the other guy that point this out I get this sort of reaction where I am misunderstood and suddenly seem to be in a competition about which depression is worst because people are unwilling to accept that others may be forced into severe depression by abusive behaviour.

The video you seem to be defending is very amusing. No doubt the guy being laughed at has numerous tales to recount of being physically assaulted.

One of my tics is a sort of come on wink straight out of an old comedy routine. I've women screaming at me in clubs because they were insulted the fat guy came on to them, I've even had to do a runner because some drunken girl had decided to round up their friends to get in on the kicking. I often have drunken blokes attempt to assault me because they thought I was gay and was coming on too strong. By the way, I don't have the kind of Tourettes the guy in the video has where I swear at people. He may not do that anyway as I didn't watch the video. How hilarious to show a video to someone who has had to put up with abuse for 42 years because of a milder case of Tourettes, is that to show the guy understands what people with it go through? Do you really think the guy suffering with Tourettes is really laughing inside along with all the others? No doubt you enjoy being made fun of as well.

I'm 49, I really need to exercise to lose weight, I can't because my right knee popped out in an assault years ago, it popped right back in but I can only run on it when I'm below a certain weight. That is just one of numerous injuries sustained over the years because I have a humorous mental disorder, none of which I asked for by the way, but people drink and wish to vent their own frustration against the world on others, the twitching guy making funny sounds is as good a target as anyone else I suppose.

So thanks for trying to prove I'm as much of an arsehole as everyone else. You are of course correct, I am much more of one and have the social circle to prove it.

 

The problem people have with it is that it is a form of depression we all understand, so in point of fact playing the game is useless it teaches no-one anything, because at some point in our lives we will have this sort of depression to some varying degree, so in the sense that she has promoted it it serves no purpose. What it doesn't deal with is the type of depression that is caused by abuse or by having a mental disorder. Showing that sort of depression would be useful because the vast majority do not have depression forced upon them by constantly being verbally and physically abused. That's not to suggest that sort of depression is worse but it is out of the hands of the people that suffer it because the cause never goes away the abuse just keeps on happening.

Look at the post of the guy linking to the hilarious Tourette's video. If that's not abusive behaviour what is? When I take him to task about someone else jumps in to side with the first poster because they decide I was belittling depression and deserved to be taken down a bit. Is that not abusive behaviour?

That is very much the norm for people with mental disorders, if one takes a chance and tries to point out relevant stuff someone else always see the funny.

This would be a useful example of an experience to have where everyday you go out your door you have to wonder what will happen. But who would want to play it, no easier to put together a piece of junk that everyone can recognise and agree with.

Try putting a game together about the homeless, who would play that, we don't even want to look at them.

 

Well, I'm glad this "issue" came to light. The list of gaming websites and people I follow have shrunk in the past few days. Pretty soon, I'm gonna have to start making up news to keep myself in the loop.
Seems to me that "games journalists" are now on a witch hunt. Now Ken Levine is a target. Well, one of his female character anyway.
https://www.facebook.com/ken.levine.9/posts/10203830592104176

 

I definitely hope the landscape changes for indies. I don't like how incestuous and political the landscape is. I look at my twitter feed every day and cringe at what some people are posting. I certainly have been cleaning house on my twitter feed and to be honest, I feel like after this is all over there won't be any respectable gaming news outlets out there that are impartial and clean.

I think someone needs to pick up the ball that the existing media is clearly dropping and start their own gaming news site that's clean from all this crap and not part of the "gaming circle". If you guys are aware of any please share them, I'm sure I'm not the only developer looking to get news with a clean take on them rather than the current status quo of sites who think it's awesome to insult gamers far and wide of being misogynist/abusers for disliking the incestuous relationship between developers and games media these days.

I always hope games stood on their merits rather than the same political garbage that runs in the rest of the world. How sad that our industry is tainted by such people, we should all be doing this because we love it, not to further some personal agenda.

 

You absolutely attempted to deny Zoe Quinn's experience of depression.

 

My response had zero to do with the Tourette's video and everything to do with pointing out what a hypocrite you are. My bad for not pointing that out more directly and leaving it up to interpretation.

 

Become what I obviously am? What? A horrible person? A dumb F***? I didn't say that it wasn't S***e that you go through this kind of thing. I said ONE aspect of it was funny. I didn't say all the other ticks or symptoms associated with it were funny.

Strange how you mention 'I don't mean to' when you yourself go on to say the same thing.

I'm assuming you also don't think I have my own serious health issues. I do and get the piss ripped out me all the time for it but you know what I don't give a F*** really. Its a bit of banter not abuse.

You assume too much. I'd let you know if I thought you shouting "It's a japs eye" was funny. Yeah I wouldn't just walk right up to you and say haha that's funny but after sitting down for a pint or something similar.

 

No, not denying Zoe Quinn had, possibly still suffers with depression, that is pretty clear from the game that she has experienced it. At the same time as you might see form another post up, when people try to engage with the developer about depression it was made pretty clear that they are not interested in talking about depression per se just her experience of it. So not really hippocritical when viewed from one standpoint. Again people jump up to defend her position as if that is the only position, no doubt because it is also the depression they have encountered so of course her game does show depression. Let's remember that the purpose of that game is to engage the public in a discussion and to show how depression is. However that is not the only way depression is reached. Guess what though, as the poster a few up pointed out, challenge that viewpoint and abuse rains down. Pretty much your posts prove that.

 

You win. I obviously should laugh along. Totally convinced you have a mental health issue that gets you a bit of amusing banter, no doubt the the jokes will get somewhat stale after 20 years.

The one aspect you find funny is the least funny part about it because when he is not with his friends and engaging in all the banter, he will shout an epithet at some tough guy who will not see the funny. Given the nature of violence he could get what is called in the colloquial a simple bitch slap, a tactic often employed to both shut someone up, shock them and make it clear that you are now in serious trouble my son. A tactic I am very familiar with. This harmless slap, that generally leaves no bruises, might drive the funny guy into a curb where, because he has no understanding of how to protect himself when pushed to the ground by force, his skull may crack on the curb stone or hit a wall, it being a generally understandable notion that one can use a brick wall as a weapon given that when a head and a wall collide the wall has no soft body physics unlike the head, a useful fact often brought into play during fights with more than one opponent. Of course, this sort of stuff can work against you if it is your first experience, as can the sorry fact that people experienced with violence and an understanding of it never take chances because when it starts who knows where it goes. Usually someone like this will try to make every blow count which means taking out a knee if possible, very minimum a leg sweep or they will grab an arm and break it at the elbow joint.

Yes, all very exaggerated and melodramatic, but these things do happen. Of course, unlike in the movies when someone is knocked unconscious by a blow they generally are only unconscious for a few seconds, any longer and one has a concussion. So the funny guy will, if lucky get right back up. As additional stress increases the tics and sounds with Tourettes he might again throw out an insult which no doubt will be met with something maybe a bit stronger than a slap. That is if he is allowed to get up it being the norm for those familiar with violence to follow up with a stomp on the head, often several stomps until blood is seen. Blood from the head is quite a deep, dark crimson colour and will cover a large area very fast. The phrase from Shakespeare, ' who knew the old man had so much blood in him...' really is one of the most profound and true statements ever made.

No matter, I usually don't engage in these sort of forum discussions. In fact this has been very useful. I will stop trying to engage with the community and go back and get on with stuff. I know I shouldn't bother from many years of making the attempt I tend not to understand social interaction very well. No idea whether I offend or not. That's not Tourettes by the way that's pure O OCD. Tourette's is a walk in the park compared with that.

I hope the guy lives in a small village and a community that cares for him and that will protect him and that he never encounters anyone that will do more to him than shout insults.

 

On of my favorite Indie Devs, Sos Sosowski, put up a great post on his view of this whole Gamergate debacle from his point of view as a dev. One of the more level headed, objective takes I have seen.
http://sosowski.tumblr.com/post/96628756767/the-lack-of-communication-and-the-bitterness-in-video

 

@sicga123 may I assume, from that account, that you're living in a densely populated area in the Americas?

 

My thoughts are that this debaucle is beneath all of our dignity. There are worse problems in our world to deal with than conspiracy theories, pissed-off ex-lovers, and a game about depression.

Why don't we play a game of chess? Alternatively, is this thread lock-worthy yet?

 

There are worse problems than conspiracy theories, like people getting harassed and bullied out of the indie scene because of conspiracy theories, pissed-off ex-lovers and a game about depression. Just saying.

 

Why?

If it wasn't for this thread, I would never have done research about the whole ordeal, and I would never have known that I was a misogynists...or white.
Like all decent people, I'm against the threats being made to the parties involved, but because I don't support Quinn or Sarkeesian in what they do, these so called "game journalists" and even some people in game development are calling people like me sexists and misogynists. WTF?

Didn't even realize that Adam Baldwin is involved with all this. Just check out his twitter feed.

 

Thanks for that. I agree that was one of the most level headed and objective takes on it.

One observation, not related to the linked article. It still amazes me how so many seem to wilfully forget how the anonymous internet works. So many people on that hashtag take something one person has done/posted and labels and demonizes the other side based on that one or handful of examples. It strikes me as intellectually dishonest in the extreme.

 

I didn't say it was mental health issues although I have been through a bowt of clinical depression. Maybe they will get stale after 20 years but after a decade so far they haven't.

I'm not trying to drag down or make fun of what you've gone through. I can't imagine what it's like. I can at least understand how difficult it may be or how bad it may make you feel but you shouldn't have to feel that way. You should be able to have a laugh about it.

I should at explain that even though I said i find one aspect funny it's only a specific subset of that. Shouting "Johnny Davidson" "Arthur Daily" or random swearing. Not things that could be construed as hurtful to people or get you in serious trouble.

 

I don't know if that's really the case at all. I certainly wouldn't make the assumption that everyone understands something.

Plus, flip it around. Lets say the game was about some niche, rare form of depression that virtually nobody knows about. The reverse argument is then valid and is also perfectly legitimate - "this isn't a typical form of depression, it's misleading about what it's like in the majority of cases". Point being, the issue isn't what particular narrative of depression is presented in this one game, it's that one game can't deal with all of them, and there's only one game.

As cliched as this sounds, if you want to share your experience, why not make/write/whatever something of your own?

(As an aside, I agree that some behaviour here has been... less than ideal.)

 

Yeah, as @hippocoder pointed out a few days ago on my Blue Shell topic, too much talking, not enough making of games.

 

Hippo is always watching. Make good games.

 

Building on this, it could actually be damaging. People who don't understand depression as a whole but have seen something that represents only the most chronic/acute/etc. forms or forms with specific causes may be mislead into thinking that anyone suffering something less chronic/acute/with different causes "isn't really depressed" because it doesn't match up with their experience of "real" depression.

 

The type of depression shown is along the lines of people who self-diagnose so they can call themselves a special little snowflake. It's not representative of clinical depression and is stereotypical. In my case(clinically diagnosed and not from a GP), it was a symptom of much larger problems which I've overcome tenfold thankfully.

"Oh you're only depressed, get over it." is something I've heard many times, I'd say the opposite is true also for what you said. Do you know what sentences like that did? They made me worse and feel more alone(when in fact, I had a huge amount of support but I was too stupid to see it). People think depression is just something you can get over and if you don't you're being melodramatic. People don't understand the real form of it and only the weak episodes people have which are more akin to a bullet scraping your skin than kneecapping you.

I wasn't really wanting to go on a rant or my history but I thought of a pretty good example of what things like this do to people looking back when people don't understand what clinical depression is.

All in all though, I don't really care about how wrong they got it honestly because not many people are going to leave with any view of depression because no one is going to play it for longer than 5 minutes. I just felt sicga needed some help .

(I'm saying people for the lack of a better word)