Any thoughts on the recent Phil Fish Zoe Quinn debacle?

What is the truth? Something plausibly told and boldly maintained.

It does not speak to the character of a person nor does it make actions more plausible. If you steal a candy is it plausible that you will go on to murder someone?

If one takes out the salacious aspects what are we left with? Would we be having this debate if it was a man at the centre of all this? Probably not because one could easily find such a situation where journalists have supposedly influenced someone's success or where gaining entry to the cliques helps one out, but whilst there may be grumbles about the situation there is not such a sustained attack as is going on here. If there is still a case to answer once one removes the supposed sex vixen behaviour then that aspect should have been left out to begin with. If what has gone on here is wrong immaterial of the gender of those involved then it should never have been brought up in the first place.

There are serious allegations in these videos. Was a major game jam scuttled for personal gain? Is money being made through a scam? Why is the game press not writing about this and posts are being deleted all over various on-line boards? Does this group of people really have that much influence or is this woman's name being used as a 'the devil made me do it' ploy?

A lot of this is unsubstantiated character assassination. What we don't know and are not shown is often as important as what we are shown, it is easy to manipulate how something is viewed.

There are many reasons why her game could have gotten on Steam. Could be that Valve decided to see how that type of genre would play out, how it was received. It's free to play so not like anyone is losing out on the deal. Making the claim that it links to a tip bucket on her website so she is making from it is somewhat tenuous to say the least. A lot of the statements are of a similar calibre. Plus if one takes out the 2 names which are now believed to be wrong that were only speculated on, suddenly one doesn't have a web of intrigue.

The internet is definitely broken.

 

No, it's what the facts support until further facts prove otherwise.

Nice straw-man argument. Now cheating with journalists and using them for professional gain, is not as outlandish as murder and candy, but you know that.

Of course there is more to it than the sex, everything you mention after this paragraph is what we are left with. The sex is how it was exposed, not the issue. Though it does have a role.

Why do you have question marks here? No one is going to answer. These are important accusations, yes. We will most likely never know the entire story, but from the dates it's quite possible that some things might not be as her sexual partners presented them.

Exactly and this is why it is important you look around and see what she tried to hide and partially succeeded in doing (what she succeeded in hiding, by definition can't be found). This can be done by both sides.

I don't think you need these kinds of tactics to get your game on steam, my game got Greenlit, I didn't do anything of the sort (kinda difficult being in Greece and all). The thing is that there are other things - besides getting a half assed game on Steam - that are a lot worse and worthy of critique. I won't go into them, you clearly have read about them, but chose to ignore them as false and continue focusing on the character assassination part - which she clearly did a good job of providing ammunition for and she is clearly focusing on, as she did last time, when she set it up.

I don't think so. The internet is just used by people, people aren't perfect, so the internet can't be perfect (by internet I assume we mean the community, not the technical backbone).

 

So... What the...?
I had to google what this was about. Obviously I already knew what fish is (his drama is legendary), but I had to look up quinn. She is basically an "artist" (pronounced with finger quotes), who believes that every random thing they do is artistic expression, despite any actual effort put into honing any skills what so ever (see her da page or etsy crapfest, sg photos, her website, or her irony projects). Unless I am missing something, I could find nothing of any real value she has done. I found a ton ego-drama, self indulgent whining, rambling on about the challenges faced by a unskilled narcissist, but nothing else.

My opinion on the whole thing? In-and-Out is good but Five Guys is fantastic! The rest is pathetic bullshit I wish I hadn't wasted the time googling. Thanks for that.

 

I'll leave this here for the people who want to perhaps find out why their game (if its actually any good) maybe didn't get coverage at X press site. There's a ton of links in that thread linking to issues with press/this whole debacle. Too many for me to list directly, so just have a read if you're interested.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=127117181&posted=1#post127117181

I'd say forget the whole "Sex scandal" and focus on the really important stuff. Nepotism *is* real and its been happening for a while, sadly. Don't expect your game to get coverage simply because it's good, a lot of it is who you know, not what you know.

But I'm sure most of us already knew this.

 

All large studios pay for coverage. But no the outcry is about alleged sex of some indie dev. Oh my god, ridiculous.

(I prefer if they sell coverage for sex instead of money if they sell it at all, would level the playing field a little (because amount of sex you can take is limited, but not amount of money))

 

They buy ad space, but they expect good reviews in return. So indirectly they buy good ratings. And then all the presents that game "journalists" get from the big studios on launch events. Most of game "journalism" is just a joke.

 

Personally, I'd rather not see more games trying to capitalize on mental-health issues to appeal to the "Socially aware" demographic (quotation marks deliberate.) It smacks of cheap gimmickry and reaching for the lowest hanging fruit to score positive reviews.

And I am someone that lives with depression. So I'm not comfortable with that aspect of my life being capitalized on for a quick buck and five-stars. It's tokenizing a very real and very difficult to deal with medical condition (edit: And thinking on it a bit more, it is just a little bit insulting to having the stuff I have to deal with being treated as a cheap ploy for attention.)

If you're going to make a game, make a game... But if you want to preach, find a soap-box and a street-corner.

 

Yup, depression quest is as much of a game as is a power point presentation.

This whole drama is so stupid.

 

Its free, and a portion of the proceeds (if you choose to pay) are being donated to the National Suicide Prevention Hotline

 

What portion? They are vague. Why not just have a donation link on the front page? Moreover, dealing with suicide, depression, medication and treatment is a serious and delicate matter. I could find no details anywhere that the content of the game is written, verified or consulted upon/with psychiatric professionals. Gotta side with Redz0ne, it seems like a marketing ploy at worst, ill conceived and misguided at best.

 

What I find disconcerting is that everyone on this forum is more interested in debating the merits of sleeping with journalists instead of violent reaction that came afterwards. Developers of all levels are being targeted more and more by obsessed and clinically insane gamers. At one time it might have been idle banter from a narcissistic basement dweller, but it's turned into SWATting and felony theft of identity. People are actually trying to get us and our families killed by using SWAT teams. To hell with game journalists, what happens when someone takes a shotgun into Steam's office because a DotA character was nerfed? I mean, really, the whole situation certainly didn't merit posting Fish's bank account and social security number. That's literally destroying someone's life. And for what?

I guess I see right through all the superficial garbage to the real issue that keeps boiling to the surface. Gamers are getting out of control.

 

For illustrative purposes:

 

Sorry, but you missed the point so hard, I can't even think of a funny metaphor for it.

Nobody gives a damn about her sexlife. I just finished a German article on it after spending almost two entire workdays writing. Why? Because this S*** needs to be exposed.
There are things at play here that want to make me throw up. Images are getting destroyed which has severe impact on ones career and by extension existence, freedom of art is being completely undermined and journalistic integrity is something those so called "journalists" never heard about.

The saddest thing: The wrong ones are taking the blame.

 

To anyone who's interested in what's really been going on
A pretty good summary...
Sadly, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

How about potential ways to wake up the community? Perhaps if people woke up one day and almost every game was unplayable for 24 hours with a screen that said "This is what your world will be like if you continue to abuse the people who make the games you play".

I imagine that would be an eye opener, but I imagine even more abuse would follow.

That's what there is to debate. Not whether journalists are corrupt (of course they are), but what is going to happen to the industry if nerd rage really does become lethal.

 

My thoughts: I don't care - stop talking about them.

 

I love Phil Fish.

 

Not me. I feel the much more interesting debate is In-and-Out vs. Five Guys.

 

Burguer King is not that bad.

 

My last post about that afair:
I did not read everything in the blog post, but:
- First it says that media reported about a case of alleged rape without prove is an error
- But it wants media to report about this "case", this "huge" case of so "important" stuff
- Screenshots are prove? Really? I can make you some screenshots...
- Did you check that the "Young Capitalists" are not just another scam?

I don't say the people involved did nothing wrong, but the rage is about a lot of stuff and it just mixes everything. You could ask stuff about specific things that happened, and report that, but don't mix it with other stuff that is not important to that point.

And to use this case to show corruption in game journalism is just ridiculous, there are many cases where it is known that large studios got ratings and coverage for money. But in this case you can never prove that sex was exchanged for that. Saying you report about this case because of that is just nuts.

I don't have sympathy for the people involved, but what happens here is a witch hunt. And that witch hunt is the reason one cannot discuss about that aspects of this affair that would really be worth discussing. So the people being part of this witch hunt are the ones to blame that the few points worth discussing cannot be discussed in a reasonable way atm.

Most people care s#it about this. Poor witch hunters.

 

Fair point... the Whopper is great burger. The Counter is excellent as well.

 

I've never been to an In-and-Out but I hear it's great. Last time I was in the USA I was planning on going but then I remembered what a let down Sonic and White Castle were so I figured I'd pass.

A Five Guys location opened up near my office and I was pretty impressed but then two fancy burger places opened up here too: Holy Chuck and Burger's Priest. I like Burger's Priest better but they both put Five Guys to shame.

 

I personally think that this whole thing will chase very talented developers away from the game development scene.

 

I don't see why that would be. Please explain.

 

Those are both only in Canadia.

 

Not. Talented developers are too busy making games and looking for good burgers to remotely care about a bunch of wannabe game developer social media drama queens. Its pretty much unrelated to game dev in any way. (except for the occasional snicker)

 

A bunch of people from 4chan decided to go on a rampage because of all of this. Phil Fish's information was doxxed, hacked and most of his financial information, passwords and even website data were hacked, stolen or leaked. Even entire games deleted that were near completion or just getting started.

This includes financial data from Sony and various other store fronts. This resulted in Phil Fish wanting out of the game industry and Selling the IP for FEZ as well as Polytron.

This happened to a bunch of other developers as well. I have been trying to stay clear of this whole drama fest that Zoe Quinn and others have kicked off.

You have not seen the whole backlash that Phil Fish and others have gotten. See above.

 

What's this in reference to?

I seem to remember that Valve was hacked and an early build of Half Life 2 was leaked. I don't think anyone ended up quitting the industry over that one.

Didn't he announce a while ago that he was done?

Still, I don't think that Phil Fish's doxxing will deter others.

I don't think he deserved or should have been doxxed but I think a lot of people will think he brought it on himself (and so they will not internalize the threat).

If some game dev that everyone loves was doxxed, that would be different.

 

Come on up! Burgers on me!

 

It was in reference to other game devs as well as Phil Fish siding with Zoe Quinn.

 

Ok, but which near completed or just started games were deleted? I'm not denying it happend. I'm just curious.

 

Not 100% sure - I will need to look into this. But not right now as I am getting ready for bed.

 

Exactly. Deserved has nothing to do with it, he could have easily avoided it. He's a mediocre developer at best. If he would have spent more time working on craft rather than pissing off the internet, he wouldn't be in the situation he is in. That quinn person isn't even a game developer, she's just a internet "personality", the psycho drama crap is just her life. People talking about it like this is feeding into it.

 

Honestly, this image alone just might justify a trip up north :

 

Ah, the Hawg burger...

The first few times I went to either of these places I tried their more exotic burgers but what kept me coming back was their fresh ground beef. It's hard to explain but you can really taste how fresh it is.

At Holy Chuck my favourite is the "Grind N' Shine".

And Burger's Priest has a Big Mac clone (I forget what they call it) that tastes like the best Big Mac you've ever tasted. As you eat it you're having this revelation of what a Big Mac is actually supposed to taste like. It's so good I haven't been able to eat an official Big Mac since.

 

Good god... that burger... anyone in CanadaLand got a couch I can crash on??!

 

Maybe someone from Unity will see this and they'll schedule Unite 2015 in Toronto.

That would be awesome! We could all go on a burger pilgrimage.

 

1. Find a radical community.
2. Poke the hornets nest of their opposition(A 4chan like forum for people with depression in this case)
3. Wait for the hornets to sting(if no sting happens, act like it happened anyway).
4. Tweet about how you're getting death threats, calls etc from a community and that you're scared for your life(In this case, it was people who can't even talk on phone without getting a feeling in their chest so strong that they want to run as far away as possible).
5. ???
6. Profit(in this case, have your abysmal game get green lighted).


Professional Victimhood is full proof. Note how I didn't mention the cheating allegations etc because it's just an attack on her character...it's the journalists that should be burned for this not her; they abused their position of power.

 

*sigh*
That's probably the reason why you're talking so much nonsense. It's what happens when reading a summary on a topic is too much work, but replying in a forum isn't.

• What happened:
  • Zoe Quinn's game "Depression Quest" was submitted to Greenlight and failed to get greenlit. It's just a simple HTML game and nothing special.
  • She claimed to get harassed by Wizardchan over being a woman and gave two little screenshots as "proof"
  • Media ran the story immediately
• Problem:
  • Nobody heard Wizardchan out who claimed to be innocent
• Proof:
  • Greg Tito (chief editor of the Escapist) himself admitted that they don't fact-check, so long it fits the agenda
  • They just default to help women and keep quiet if they think it doesn't
• Why bother?
  • Such behavior has nothing to do with journalism
  • They're willingly painting innocent people as villains which can lead to harassment of people who did nothing

• What happened:
  • Zoe Quinn got in touch with mods/admins from reddit and other sites
  • Apparently Quinn herself asked for total "radio silence"
  • Apparently screenshots of a discussion between reddit staff members were leaked
• Problem:
  • Freedom of speech?
• Proof:
  • The screenshot could have been faked but...
  • The mod was fired
  • The radio silence was enforced
  • Mass deletions did happen (including banning everyone)
  • Articles on N4G and Gamesnosh did dissapear
  • Backups in the Internet Archives were removed
  • A video on the topic was taken down with a false DMCA claim
• Why bother?
  • Freedom of speech again?

• What happened:
  • People like TotalBiscuit and JonTron have spoken out against things like...
  • DMCA abuse to silence criticism
  • Censorship
• Problem:
  • They were harassed over it
• Proof:
  • There are screenshots of the S*** that was flung their way (which you may claim are fake but...)
  • TotalBiscuit changed his twitter status to what Phil Fish called him (so go figure)
• Why bother?
  • Again, innocent people will get harassed and freedom of speech undermined

• What happened:
  • Indie developer Wolf Wozniak has spoken out in the public
  • He claimed to have gotten sexually by Quinn on a friend's weding
  • He was too afraid to be excluded by the others so he hasn't spoken out earlier
• Problem:
  • He was harassed over it
  • Phil Fish threw went full-retard on him
  • Poor guy was completely defeated:
  • He apologized (for speaking out that he was sexually harassed)
  • He advertised for a game (not his own but Quinn's)
  • Later he tweeted that he now has issues getting to PAX
• Proof:
  • There are screenshots again (and again you can claim that they might be faked but...)
  • Part of them are still up (the ones where he talks about PAX)
• Why bother?
  • They won't accept you speaking out against sexual harassment. How F***ed up is that?
  • They will ram a knife in your back if you don't walk perfectly in line
  • They will exclude and harass you

And that's just a few parts of it...sadly.

 

Can you clarify this issue of Wolf Wozniak having issues getting into PAX?

Did the PA guys freeze him out?

I Googled and could only find a tweet by him asking if anyone had space in their room (I don't know what that means) and another saying that his PAX struggle is real.

Also, is there any info on how she sexually harassed him at that wedding?

I've had girls I was not interested in aggressively hit on me before. Sometimes I thought it was funny and sometimes I thought it was annoying but I never felt bad enough about it to think of it as harassment.

 

So on the subject of making our industry more open to women, I just saw something in an old Unite2012 video that blew my mind: WARNING: NSFW!!! Just watch it for about 10 seconds.

In case the link does not work correctly I have it time indexed to 16m50s.

The video is about the tools and techniques that went into building an Alien vs Predator game. The speakers are sharing their (very interesting and useful) techniques for controlling level flow with invisible game object collision triggers.

Surely they could have used a different visual to underline the point they were making.

If I was in that audience I would have been very uncomfortable. If I was a woman I would have walked out.

There's definitely a place for images of attractive women (and men) in games but maybe if we were a little more circumspect in our professional interactions, poser mouth pieces like Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian would not have such a big soapbox to stand on.

 

Given how vocal the "social justice" crowd have been in trying to assassinate companies by hurting their bottom line (and let's admit it, if there was no financial reward for being a game-dev, this industry would not be as big as it is) it would lead to stagnation and an over-eagerness to water down the games to such a point as there is nothing offensive or "problematic" in them which would leave the industry as being so tame and bland that everything would be angry birds, candy crush or farmville (And as much as those games do make their respective companies a lot of money, they're not really going to be able to keep this industry afloat on their own.)

For instance... As much as there may be some games out there that DO deserve to have the hellstorm brought down on the developers' heads, we have to accept that with any art-medium (and games ARE an art form) that you can't simply take the good and dismiss the bad. I believe Neil Gaiman had a very enlightening post about this in that with art, you can't simply say that the ugly or gross bits should be shunned for fear of offending or causing problems... Because that's part and parcel of any art-form... The potential to offend. That's what makes art "Art!"

Here's the link to the blog post. It may be uncomfortable to read but it's worth reading.

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html

 

@Redz0ne:

I don't see how the point you are making has anything to do with the point @HeadClot88 was making. As I read it he was talking about the backlash against Phil Fish and Zoe Quinn and the sorry state of Game Industry Journalism. He was not specifically talking about the "social justice" crew.

I don't quite understand the point you are making because you seem to be against the freedom of speech of the SJC while simultaneously being for the freedom of speech of game developers.

Bottom line: Freedom and Free Speech is for everybody!

It's better for the SJC to have their say and for members of the game dev industry to have the strength of character ignore them when we disagree.

That way the free market of ideas will decide who is right. This would be much better than if a government imposed rules for either side (e.g., forced censorship, mandatory game ratings compliance).

I'm not aware of the SJC's successfull assination of a game company "by hurting their bottom line". Please let me know if that has happened. Zoe Quin vs FYC does not count because that game jam was for charity.

The rise of games like Angry Birds and Candy Crush have nothing to do with the social justice crew either. Those games, specifically CC, fall into the category of "icky free speech", which I will defend to the death!

Our industry is not perfect in its treatment of women. But it's better than the Film, TV, Music and Fashion industries. Yet everyday the buses stop in L.A. and New York, dropping off young girls from all over the world, each with empty pockets and a head full of dreams.

We will attract more women to the industry by giving them the chance to succeed, not pandering to them with a perverse new sexism of lowered expectations.

 

And when you realize that the "social justice" crowd are essentially seeking to censor and reduce artistic expression (under the pretense of being "socially aware" which is rather ironic when you think about it) it starts to make sense.

So, they have every right to express their outrage... However, when that outrage is predicated on false information or a willingness to censor anyone that might seek to speak against them (for whatever reason) then you have the beginnings of a fascist mentality (and at risk of invoking Godwin's law here, you should know why letting a fascist mentality to gain traction is a bad thing for everyone.)

And the worst thing about all this is... It's eroding the trust towards games journalism such that we've actually lost women from their desires to make games... Go look around on some of the hashtags and there are too many women coming off of this with the feeling that in order for them to gain any attention with their games that they have to, essentially, whore themselves out. Now, I understand that a little bit of pandering is par for the course when courting the press but when that pandering starts to set the expectation that sexual favours are fair game in this negotiation, it's seriously damning and is NOT acceptable... Not one bit.

Women shouldn't have to have this spectre over them that in order for their games to succeed that they have to drop-trou for the male journalists... And to be even more blunt, I really don't get why Zoe's getting so many defenders... If these allegations are true (and the evidence does suggest that there is most definitely some shenanigans going on) then that's actually working against the feminist movement. I get being empowered and taking control of one's body... But trading sexual favours (as this seems to be what this whole debacle is about) for positive press and awards is the exact opposite of what feminism was meant to embody. There is no liberation in using one's body as currency in trade for positive press, awards or anything of that sort and it mocks the many women that came before her who fought tooth and nail to be taken seriously as human beings... Because women are not objects and they should NEVER be put in the position of feeling obligated to trade sex or intimacy for legitimacy as a game developer or as a human being.

 

Her Patreon account has doubled as well from what I've heard.

In reality though I couldn't give a F*** who F***ed who. However it should have been disclosed in any articles that there was a relationship there. Really though it's just another form of knowing the right people.

I don't see why Zoe has fame on the internet though. Far as I can tell she hasn't really done anything of note besides Depression Quest which is S*** anyway. I mean how many people here or other game devs have written a text adventure at some point?

The abuse being thrown from all sides is unwarranted though and it is being thrown from all sides.

See for people that complain about stuff like that or think "OMG! I would have walked out" are far withdrawn from reality or live in their own little bubble where they think this is the only acceptable way to conduct things.

Most people honestly couldn't give a F*** about women in bikini's or men for that matter.

 

What starts to make sense?

Yes, free speech includes the freedom to be wrong. To quote Godwin himself "The best answer for bad speech is more speech."

Yes, freedom is a burden. Yes, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. It's boring and banal but that's what it takes to stay free.

Let them say what they want. As long as they are not inciting violence, it's fair. The duty falls to the the rest of us to debate them in the open and show them to be wrong. To quote Louis Brandeis, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant."

Please, can we have less rhetoric and more substantiation? What hashtags? Further to the point I made at the end of my last post, the casting cough hasn't stopped Hollywood. The games dev industry will outlive this and grow stronger for it. The game journalism industry may even learn something from it as well.

 

Wait, are you saying that I'm wrong to be surprised to see that in the middle of a dry technical talk on game architecture?

I'm not offended by women in bikinis. There's a concept of tact here. Save it for the after party.

 

You are paying attention, right? Have you ever heard of the political model called "Ochlocracy?" Google it... Hell, here's a link... I suggest you read it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

Not inciting towards violence?

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/kill-all-men
https://twitter.com/hashtag/killallmen?src=hash
https://twitter.com/hashtag/misandry?src=hash
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/a-ninth-teenager-since-last-september-has-committed-suicide

So, is bullying someone to the point where they honestly consider suicide not a problem? Because one quick glance at these links will show you that these people that claim to be all about social justice are merely bullies... And the worst kind imaginable, the kind that think that what they're doing is NOT bullying and is either inconsequential or in support of a very valid cause (Do some research into the history of feminism and feminist theory and you'll find out about "Third-wave feminism.") You say you want to let them have their say? Okay, that's fair... But I will say that they do NOT have the right to hide behind the freedom of expression to dehumanize, belittle and bully another person simply because of their gender (or anything else.)

So, when you say "The casting couch hasn't stopped hollywood" is this to say that you think that this is in any way acceptable? Is it okay to use one's body to score privileges that others have to work for? Are you essentially giving your tacit approval to using one's sex to gain favour in a market that should (if it's to call itself "journalism") hold itself to at least some measure of integrity? Because if that is what you're suggesting you're basically saying some rather repugnant things here.

Please take some time to browse the links above... IF you say you're not interested and would rather not research this then kindly step down and leave the conversation.

 

Why does the hypothesis keep changing?

First it was "talented developers are going to leave the industry!"

I asked for an explanation and I got "well the SJC crew and the perception of sexism is killing the games industry!"

So I asked for examples and now we're down to "but bullies are bad! And you're bad if you don't agree!"

But I do agree, straw man. Bullies are bad. Inciting violence is bad and the authorities should get involved. There should be an investigation of Phil Fish's doxxing too.

But this is a game dev forum. Let's talk about the implications to game dev...

Of course the casting couch is bad. You'd have to be perverse to think otherwise. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, btw. But it does not prevent women from entering those industries. This incident with PF/ZQ (i.e., what we were originally talking about) will not prevent women from entering game dev.

Games journalism is bad. So is sports journalism. So is political journalism. Journalism in general is terrible. It probably always was.

So we have this newly documented incident of a serious ethical breach and subsequent cover up in the Game Journalism scene. But Video Game Journalism will always be in ethical conflict because they take advertising money from the same developers and publishers whose games they review.

Once again, these ethical breaches are bad. And as we rationally discuss them, things will get better. Slowly.

But, to make my point a third time: in the same way that the TV, Film, Music and Fashion industries all seem to limp along despite their worse ethical flaws, the games industry will continue to grow and thrive.

---

Ok, I'm done with this thread. Clearly there are people here with raw nerves that just want to vent. This is not the right place to discuss politics.

If any of you come to Toronto, I will buy the burgers. We can sit and eat and drink (and eat some more) and try to find some common ground.