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  1. Posts
    1
    Just wondering. Is there a way to derive a World Space Normal map from a Height or Tangent Space Normal within Substance?


  2. Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    299
    You can do it in Substance Designer, but not directly from Unity.
    Substance Specialist
    Allegorithmic


  3. Posts
    185
    Quote Originally Posted by pkid View Post
    The new features just say you can have a custom terrain shader, it doesn't specifically mention substances. However I thought that in unity 3 one of the reasons substances couldn't work with the unity terrain system was that they couldn't swap out the built in unity terrain shader with their own. Now they should be able to. If anyone from allegorithmic can shed some light on this I would appreciate it.
    Can anyone from allegorithmic or Unity answer this? Thanks.


  4. Location
    Los Angeles
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    299
    Unfortunately, the terrain inspector still asks for the "Texture2D" class when importing textures in it, and substance uses the "Texture" class, so still no native support of substances on the terrain, but I will update my Terrain script which adds substance support so it works with Unity 4 at release.
    Substance Specialist
    Allegorithmic


  5. Posts
    185
    Thanks for answering Jerc. I wonder if anyone form Unity could comment on how much effort it would take to get the terrain engine to take in "Texture" class because it just seems like a big disappointment that all of that effort went into integrating substances with Unity but we still can't use substances on the terrain.


  6. Posts
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerc View Post
    It's a whole new generation engine that needs to work on very low end platforms rather than just a fix, and that's why it's taking longer than we expected.
    Have you got any idea when real-time Substances will be supported on mobile devices?


  7. Location
    Lazio, Italy
    Posts
    678
    Quote Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    Have you got any idea when real-time Substances will be supported on mobile devices?
    Allegorithmic only make the middleware and Substance creation tools. They're not responsible for how long it takes their licensees to implement their mobile Substance engine, so your question cannot be answered by anyone from Allegorithmic. (They're likely to be subject to NDAs in any case.)

    No mention has been made of mobile Substance support in 4.0, so I'd expect it to appear in a later 4.x release.
    Sean Baggaley

    Author of "Tic-Tac-Tut" turn-based game tutorial. Get it from the Asset Store here! (Tic-Tac-Toe game with illustrated 40-page documentation.)

    "Tic-Tac-Tut" turn-based game tutorial support thread.


  8. Location
    Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    988
    Quote Originally Posted by stimarco View Post
    Allegorithmic only make the middleware and Substance creation tools. They're not responsible for how long it takes their licensees to implement their mobile Substance engine, so your question cannot be answered by anyone from Allegorithmic.
    Sorry but I dont believe that is the case. See previous statement from Jerc of Allegorithmic, in this thread:
    "It's a whole new generation engine that needs to work on very low end platforms rather than just a fix, and that's why it's taking longer than we expected."

    Also see https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...llego.windmill
    which apparently is a tech demo using Unity. But only for tegra3, so I am guessing this maybe isn't the optimized-for-mobile version of Substance?


  9. Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    299
    The mobile version has been made available for Unity beta testers for a few weeks already and some of these people are already using it for their game. It won't be in 4.0 as Sean pointed out but it will be there soon

    The demo on the Android app store uses the mobile version indeed but it was an early engine that was only optimized to run on Tegra3 devices.
    Substance Specialist
    Allegorithmic


  10. Location
    Lazio, Italy
    Posts
    678
    Quote Originally Posted by mindlube View Post
    Sorry but I dont believe that is the case. See previous statement from Jerc of Allegorithmic, in this thread:
    "It's a whole new generation engine that needs to work on very low end platforms rather than just a fix, and that's why it's taking longer than we expected."
    I think this is a common misconception about complex tools like Unity are made: Unity Technologies don't build it all themselves. Many of the features, like the "Beast" light-mapping system, the "PhysX" physics engine, the Substance smart material support, and even the Mono scripting engine itself are all being developed independently by other teams. (Unity Technologies did buy Mecanim for their animation technology, so that's technically in-house now.)

    Beast is developed by a company now owned by Autodesk.
    PhysX is maintained by NVidia.
    Mono is an Open Source project that seeks to provide .NET support across all platforms.
    And Unity supports Allegorithmic's Substances by using Allegorithmic's Substance Air middleware library.

    ("Middleware" is a catch-all term for "software that is designed to be used as a component inside other software". PhysX, Beast Lightmapping, Mono, etc. can all be used inside other software and thus count as "middleware", although Mono is unusual in that it can be used entirely standalone as well.)

    Unity Technologies buys the rights to use the relative code libraries (known as "SDKs" in the trade) which they then use to integrate the relevant features into the Unity engine and editor.

    Unity Technologies did not write these libraries themselves. That's the whole point of such middleware: why reinvent these components when others have done all that work for you? Much as Ford don't make their own tyres or car stereos, so Unity Technologies—and many other companies—rely increasingly on buying in components from other specialist developers.

    The down-side is that all of these middleware libraries have their own development cycles, which rarely tie in with those of their licensees. Unity usually gets a major update released to tie in with the Unite events, but Allegorithmic, Autodesk, NVidia and the Mono Project all march to the beats of their own drums. Unity Technologies therefore have to wait until all the pieces are in the right place before they can announce the integration of the latest release of a major licensed component like Beast or Substance support.

    Even Mono integration takes time: you can't just swap out the scripting engine in the vain hope that nothing will break. Mono is very much a work in progress, so new releases often break older scripts.

    Unity Technologies also have to test their middleware integrations to ensure nothing goes badly wrong. This is not a trivial process, as their blog posts earlier this year will attest.

    The lead times for integrating new, complex, features in an already complex tool like Unity can be well over two years.
    Sean Baggaley

    Author of "Tic-Tac-Tut" turn-based game tutorial. Get it from the Asset Store here! (Tic-Tac-Toe game with illustrated 40-page documentation.)

    "Tic-Tac-Tut" turn-based game tutorial support thread.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Jerc View Post
    Hi Proton,

    I'll give you some answers to your issues.

    - About the generation time being slow: the generation time depends on the substance and its complexity. Some generate faster than others, we recommend using the Free Substance Player to profile the generation and see exactly which substance is faster to generate.
    As a general rule, all substances are extremely fast to render in 512 while 1k textures can get a lot slower to generate depending on the Substance complexity.
    We are currently working on heavy optimizations to allow fast generation of high resolution substances.

    - You are right about the substance generating all the outputs even when you only need one of them, we are aware of this and it is actually already fixed for the future 3.5 release.

    - You can import sbsar files in Designer lite by creating a "New Layer from Substance" but you will need Substance Designer Full if you want to get and modify the sample substances sources (the .sbs files are shipped with Designer Full only, including the Trial version).

    - You can export the Substance Outputs as bitmaps through the Substance material inspector in Unity. Click on the small gear icon on the top right corner of the inspector, there is a "Export Bitmaps" option.
    how would you access that export button via code? i would like to save the exported bitmap locally.


  12. Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by IMTRIGGERHAPPY9 View Post
    how would you access that export button via code? i would like to save the exported bitmap locally.
    You can't for now, however, we added a function to grab the pixels from an output allowing you to save it or converting it to a Texture2D easily in our internal builds, and it will hopefully be pushed in time for 4.0.
    Substance Specialist
    Allegorithmic


  13. Posts
    15
    I am trying to verify the claim that using B2M can reduce the build size before I purchase it. I have downloaded the B2M free demo from the asset store and created two scenes.

    Scene A has three cubes with unity materials with textures( 1024 res compressed).

    Scene B has three B2M substances that used the same textures from scene A ()

    I built Scene A into a web build(excluding scene B) and built scene B into a web build(Excluding scene A).

    My expectition was that Scene A( using image textures) would be much bigger than Scene B (using procedural textures).

    Scene A (Compressed Textures) is 905KB
    Scene B (B2M) is 924KB

    Why would the procedural substances be bigger than compressed textures? On the product web page i read this testimonial

    http://www.allegorithmic.com/content/bitmap2material-0

    and would like know that I can actually reproduce his results before buying B2M.

    Any thoughts on what could be going wrong?

    I can provide my test setup if needed.


  14. Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    1,157
    Hey, moderators. I clicked on the email link to unsubscribe to this thread but keep getting this error instead: An invalid threadid or forumid was specified. And I can't find a clearly marked link (I'm very ADD) on this page to unsubscribe. So, how do I do it?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Jerc View Post
    You can't for now, however, we added a function to grab the pixels from an output allowing you to save it or converting it to a Texture2D easily in our internal builds, and it will hopefully be pushed in time for 4.0.
    awesome! do you guys have a release date for 4.0 yet? or an around this time? lol


  16. Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by Clement_Shimizu View Post
    I am trying to verify the claim that using B2M can reduce the build size before I purchase it. I have downloaded the B2M free demo from the asset store and created two scenes.

    Scene A has three cubes with unity materials with textures( 1024 res compressed).

    Scene B has three B2M substances that used the same textures from scene A ()

    I built Scene A into a web build(excluding scene B) and built scene B into a web build(Excluding scene A).

    My expectition was that Scene A( using image textures) would be much bigger than Scene B (using procedural textures).

    Scene A (Compressed Textures) is 905KB
    Scene B (B2M) is 924KB

    Why would the procedural substances be bigger than compressed textures? On the product web page i read this testimonial

    http://www.allegorithmic.com/content/bitmap2material-0

    and would like know that I can actually reproduce his results before buying B2M.

    Any thoughts on what could be going wrong?

    I can provide my test setup if needed.
    B2M allows you to save on the size if you use normal maps and specular maps.
    Using only the diffuse won't make any difference, however, if you are using a normal map or specular, by using B2M, these maps will be generated at runtime and won't weight a single kb.
    Substance Specialist
    Allegorithmic


  17. Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerc View Post
    B2M allows you to save on the size if you use normal maps and specular maps.
    Using only the diffuse won't make any difference, however, if you are using a normal map or specular, by using B2M, these maps will be generated at runtime and won't weight a single kb.
    Thanks for clarifying that. I was really hoping that the generated materials were 100% procedural including creating a procedural diffuse map that doesn't require a example texture. That still remains a computer graphics grand challenge...


  18. Location
    France
    Posts
    1,733
    Quote Originally Posted by Clement_Shimizu View Post
    Thanks for clarifying that. I was really hoping that the generated materials were 100% procedural including creating a procedural diffuse map that doesn't require a example texture. That still remains a computer graphics grand challenge...
    That's exactly what most substances do, generating everything including the diffuse map, B2M can't do that because it's used to go from diffuse to diffuse + many maps, so it needs a diffuse input.
    - Substances can have inputs
    - B2M is a substance
    - B2M turns a diffuse input into diffuse + many (so you need to store the diffuse)
    - You can write purely procedural textures (that don't take a diffuse input) in substance designer / purchase them and ship "just" the few kb substance code with the game.


  19. Posts
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by IMTRIGGERHAPPY9 View Post
    awesome! do you guys have a release date for 4.0 yet? or an around this time? lol
    Nope, that depends on Unity


  20. Posts
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by Clement_Shimizu View Post
    Thanks for clarifying that. I was really hoping that the generated materials were 100% procedural including creating a procedural diffuse map that doesn't require a example texture. That still remains a computer graphics grand challenge...
    You can create a substance inside Substance Designer which would be 100% procedural (and thus take only a few kb).
    We cannot however convert an existing bitmap into procedural yet

    Nicolas

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