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A limited number of Indie licences for uLink available now!

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by Christian_Lonnholm, Mar 18, 2011.

  1. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Hi guys!

    Now we have an indie licence available at our homepage and as you can see there, the only restriction we have put on it is the number of licences that are available. I have in a roundabout way explained our thoughts on the matter below. But at our homepage is all the information you need to know.
     
  2. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    You know that feeling when music seems to speak directly to you. You sense that you have something great within you and that one day this feeling will have transformed into something that other people can see and when they do, they will get the same feeling of liberty that you feel right now. This, my friend, is inspiration. We have all felt it and we know it to be catchy, infectious and uplifting. Yet, we see so little of it. It doesn't make sense. Inspiration is instead a luxury, or even seen as a service that a loud man in a suit, on a stage, holding a microphone and talking about money, is doing. I too have been guilty of emptying the word by attaching it to sloppy clichés, but really, does it need to be this way?

    I would argue that the simple truth is that most people live in a world where expectations are set at "good enough". We rate ourselves by a formula of numbers of units produced, at a certain speed, with a good enough quality. The demand is infinite, your capabilities and resources are limited and no one will ever look too closely at what you have done since it will be consumed, replaced and forgotten soon enough anyway. We treat our costumers as children and provide them with a constant sugar rush of brand new shiny good enough things. It is all about marketing, we tell ourselves.

    Let me tell you that it doesn't need to be this way. Instead, listen to that voice inside you that tells you that you are better than this. You can do great things and it will feel great doing it. But afterwards, it might be even more rewarding as it will have the chance to inspire others to do great things. Do you see how compelling it is? Do you see how we seem to be designed for this purpose? Do you see that despite a lot of people that have been successful by doing mediocre stuff, there is a satisfaction in doing something really, really good that is much more rewarding than being clever and doing something good enough? Good enough is simply not good enough.

    Still, it has been accurately pointed out that we at Unity Park are awful at marketing, miserable at maximising revenue strategies and simply foolish businessmen. It is not something we are proud of but it is sort of inevitable, I guess. We don't want the largest amount of customers in the world. We want the happiest. We don't want people thinking that we are good enough. We want our costumers to be amazed, awestruck and - yes - inspired.

    We have been offered some great advice on how we could set up our indie licence of uLink and share our technology to a wider audience. At the same time we need to gradually adjust from being a development group into also dealing with support. Honestly, it is scary for us as we see ourselves as pilots that now have to take on a new role as flight attendants. We are outside our comfort zone. Everyday we learn new things on how to do this better, we understand new ways of how to improve uLink to make it of even greater use. But how many new costumers can we handle and still keep our level of quality in support and development? The answer is ten. Or rather, we think we can handle ten new clients this year and after that we will be able to have a less restricted number of indie licences.

    But for you other guys that for some reason need a licence, we are willing to sponsor your project with a free professional licence. All you need to do is impress us, make us laugh or make us turn uncomfortably in our chairs with your creative request that you have obviously spent time on. If you convince us that you care about what we have done - we will put all our muscles behind your project, making sure that it will fly. If your project is non-profit, it is also much more likely to get our honorable free licence and support.
     
  3. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    It seems as if we have a mac/safari problem with our homepage.... we are looking into it right now.

    EDIT: If you have AdBlock on in Safari you can have problems viewing some of the page images at our site. We recommend that you update AdBlock and start looking at pretty pictures.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  4. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    Awesome! Here's hoping a few jump on and grab those licenses while they can!
     
  5. Ethan

    Ethan

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    Can you exactly tell us the differences between uLink and Unity networking?

    What i saw on your other thread is:
    - you don't use RakNet
    - you use UDP
    - you don't support multiple clients or server or a parallel server and client
    - you support more players per server or more load than Unity's networking (how?)
    - you don't have bugs with buffered Network.Instantiate calls (since your don't use Unity's approach i just hoped for this one)

    Can you extend and/or correct this list? (maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to put such a "differences to Unity3d's builtin networking" list on you homepage)
    Where is the benefit for non MMOs or smaller multiplayer games when using uLink?

    Thank you
    e
     
  6. defjr

    defjr

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    I created a simple office level to show my bosses what we can do with the technology. I think it's very easy to use and works like a champion. Running a server build from my home computer, everyone in my office connected in, running strong even on my iPad! :D

     
  7. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    Lmao! that looks great earl :D
     
  8. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Dear Ethan,

    The differences between uLink and Unity/Raknet are too many to really list here but I give it a try. I will make sure we put up a comparison on our homepage very soon. But lets go through your specific questions.

    We do not use Raknet and uLink is 100% written in C#. In our upcoming 1.1 version, we have made a UnityConverter that convert your Unity/Raknet project into uLink at a push of a button. We have since we started made sure that it is easy to move projects and with UnityConverter it will be as easy as it possibly can be.

    Yes, we support UDP reliable/unreliable, in order/ unordered.

    I don't quite understand this question.

    We are able to handle more players because the Raknet integration was not really done properly. A proper integration of any network would be able to handle >100 players / Unity server. There is no real magic to it. We have of course streamlined and optimized uLink in many ways but the real difference is basically that Unity never put the time to make Raknet justice.

    We have not experienced any problems with our buffered Network.Instantiate calls. In our game Tanks vs Robots we have had no problems handling buffered Network.Instantiate calls for a 1 000 simultaneous players.

    The main benefit for people that make non MMOs is that uLink is stable and convenient to work with. You will have your multiplayer game up and running faster then with any network for Unity (most likely than any engine) As it was molded out of an extreme environment (we have made several crazy prototype games), we have found it equally great for networked games of any size.

    I will ask Aidin to add more detailed advantages with uLink as he is the one who made our team fall in love with making uLink.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  9. sawfish

    sawfish

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    This is excellent! I hope down the line we'll be in a position to utilize your technology. :)

    Also, thank you all at UnityPark for thinking of the indies.
     
  10. Ethan

    Ethan

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    Thanks for your answers Christian!

    With the point "you don't support multiple clients or server or a parallel server and client" i meant, that it's not supported to create a server and a client in the same gameinstance. Is that true? Imagine a test environment where you create a server and then create like 20 clients which are connected. Everything in the same app.

    The converter sounds awesome. In my game BlobFoot i used Unity's networking and it had so many bugs and pitfalls that i gave up on it. If you wouldn't mind i'd love to give the converter a try.

    If you want i could even send you the whole project for testing. It uses quite all parts of Unity's networking.

    Cheers
    Ethan
     
  11. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Thanks for the clarification Ethan!

    Let me try to answer your question now. We have built functional tests in NUnit that simulate several Unity clients and servers but this is done using Mono. With these tests we can simulate and test all of uLink with complete freedom. To really push the limits, we have been using Tsung to put massive load on the servers.

    Neither of these test tools can currently be accessed through Unity. Right now you are able to simulate traffic and review statistics at your fingertips through the API. Which will also be accessible from the Unity Editor's GUI in uLink 1.1

    Unity Park <3 football. We will of course make sure that your game is converted but it is more exiting to let you do it yourself so that you can see how easy it is. We are releasing uLink 1.1 in a couple of weeks. We have actually designed a football game a little bit like yours as we have been looking into bringing voice chat to Unity developers in cooperation with Ericsson.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  12. Muzzn

    Muzzn

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    Need to earn that much money as fast as possible...all nighter time!
     
  13. seon

    seon

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    Your pricing is per game title? Really? With such a competitive marketplace out there now for Networking libraries. I would have though 500 Euros should buy a totally unencumbered license, not on a per title basis. And 7000 Euros for a non-indie license, still per title? Wow.

    I was about to hit the buy button until I saw it was per title :(

    I am not starting off a cost of development discussion, or a business practices one either, but I truly believe the days of high cost middleware are gone and would expect to be paying a lot less for a library like this (per title) or 500 euros for unlimited titles. Just my opinion though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  14. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    You are correct that our licence is per title. And I am sorry to learn that you thought it was too expensive, though. uLink is very different from any other middleware library out there. However, I am happy that you took the time to both learn about it and let us know what you thought. Our trail version is still free and as earl showed, you can do a lot with it in very little time. Try it out and let me know if you still think it is too expensive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  15. PrimeDerektive

    PrimeDerektive

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    Does uLink support writing in UnityScript at all, or just in C#? How would a uLink game support 100 concurrent players without the pikko server package and dedicated servers?
     
  16. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    What a great showcase! Ehm... would you mind telling me more what you thought about uLink? How long did it take to make your office demo? And what did your boss say? Sorry for being so curious but it just made me happy reading your post that it made me want you to write another one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  17. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    uLink so support javascript/UnityScript. Though we think that C# is more powerful and just as simple to use that we try to make people use that instead. (We support Boo as well, almost forgot)

    I am a firm believer in that you really should not believe what people say but rather go by what they show. So let me show you this simple game: Snow Box. you can download the source code and set it up yourself at a server that you are familiar with and have a go at it.

    The main reason why it works as good as it does is basically that the Unity server have had an undeservedly bad reputation and secondly that we have made a good job at making uLink great. =)
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  18. seon

    seon

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    Christian, Your Networking library looks great, no doubt about its quality (though the future 1.1 seems to address some missing stuff - based on your docs). I have read your PDF top to bottom, and though there is much in your library I wouldn't use/need, you guys have definitely integrated it seamlessly and have covered all and extended much of the Unity networking solution.

    I think 500 Euros is very reasonable for your library... just not on a per title basis. That's all.
     
  19. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    I respect that. I really do.
     
  20. Metron

    Metron

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    Some people never get enough... or it's never cheap enough...

    I've been working with some 3rd party middleware that was still in heavy development and still did cost 5 digit Euros... for 1 title... So, I don't really think that the pricing is too expensive. But I think that for a lot of people who do games in their spare time, anything but free is too expensive.
     
  21. seon

    seon

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    Metron, do some research before you go the "some people" rubbish.

    I make games full time, and have been supporting my family with my game company for many years. I'm not a spare time developer. It's exactly because I am supporting my family on my games income that I can't justify a per title expense. Notice how I said, cant justify, not cant afford. Right now Unity offer a free integrated solution, that work arounds aside, does exactly what I need and works well enough.

    Sorry, you've been using 5 digit Euros middleware on a Unity title? Really? Doubtful. I don't care about middleware costs for other engines. I am ONLY interest in middleware costs for Unity and a per title cost for Unity middleware breaks the Unity model of pay once, use many, that is making Unity such an attractive engine for many professional game developers out there.

    Christian is free to sell his tools at whatever price he wants to. He is a business man, and so am I. If I cant justify his expense, I wont use his tool. I'm not crying about it. I'm just stating my opinion. The more feedback Christian gets the better he can run his business.
     
  22. seon

    seon

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    So, this thread was the first time I had been introduced to uLink. SInce reading this thread I have found and read all (soooo many pages) of the other threads with all of the discussions about price, features, price, complaints, price etc...

    I didn't mean to start that all over again here, so I wanted to apologise to Christian for hijaking this thread with another price complaint.

    Everyone go out and eval or buy uLink. Nothing else to see here. Show is over.
     
  23. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Thank you Seon for sharing your thoughts. And you are correct that before this thread, we did not have an indie licence and there was complaints about it. So we put an indie licence up there and announce it here, in this thread. So, your comment is fair and need no apology since earlier complaints about pricing was about our professional licence and not the indie licence. You are of course equally entitled to your opinion as anyone. My opinion is that uLink is a new way of making networked games and it has been pure joy to have put it in the hands of professional and indie developers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  24. Frank Oz

    Frank Oz

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    Every time I see these threads, I feel the need to apologize to Christian and the rest of his company for the attitude of some people (not directed at anyone in particular, just in general the response they've received on this forum).

    A lot of people seem to get confused as to the meaning of Indie developer.

    Commercial
    Are the ones with a publisher, spend a few million per game without really noticing, are the ones at the top, real companies not made up ones. Rarely seen hanging around on forums, tend to only use Unreal, Gamebryo or their own engines.

    Indie developers
    Are ones taking it seriously, with a budget, and means to actually achieve what they're doing. They've probably had a career in the industry themselves, made a choice to do this for a living, take it seriously and not just a hobby. Self Publish much of the time.

    Garage developers
    Are the people doing it for fun, with no monetary motive and so on. Can stretch their budget if they need to, but don't care much either way, just happy to learn and do it as a hobby.

    Modders
    Are the types who don't need and shouldn't have, access to the tools that make things easy, because then they never learn how to do things properly, they become lazy, and cheap and expect everything for free while jumping from free tool to free tool, asking basic questions on forums that could be answered in the documentation they never read, and complaining about the lack of realtime shadows.


    $500 is nothing compared to the cost of the other software you'll need to use to do a decent job. A proper 3D package, Art package, Sound, hiring help, freelancers, plugins, extensions, advertising, the list goes on.


    Anyone making a multiplayer game for the hell of it, can use Unity's networking setup, and shouldn't be worrying about something like this in the first place, they don't need high end networking solutions just to play some little thing they made over the weekend for their friends.

    Anyone doing a proper game, $500 is peanuts for an indie version of a $10,000 product. They'll make it back in no time. Anyone doing something serious, $10,000 is peanuts.

    Anyone serious about making an MMO, the MMO system they offer, whatever it's cost, would be peanuts too. As anyone serious would have a huge budget, or they're not taking it seriously and will never finish it anyway.

    I'm actually embarrassed at the number of people complaining about the price and then when it's lowered to a tiny fraction of the pro version, they still have problems with it, when in other threads many of the same people brag about how much money this iphone app or that android game they put together has made for them.

    As for the one license per game thing. Really not seeing the problem with that. It's an incentive not to make a crap game and earn the money back, lol.





    The point of this post, besides the rant. If $500 is too expensive for you, you're a garage developer or an indie who either doesn't need high end networking, or not taking your project seriously enough to invest in it fully.
     
  25. Muzzn

    Muzzn

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    Here here. Couldn't have put it better. Absolutely agree with you.
     
  26. defjr

    defjr

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    Well put, Frank Oz.

    Wow, for $500 this solution is a steal for indies.
     
  27. Metron

    Metron

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    That's ok... neither am I. But either you're professional enough to see the effort spend on this project and the relatively low price, or you're not professional enough and didn't even make the calculation how much it would cost you (in matter of time AND money) to develop the features you need yourself.

    Not with Unity, right. More with other engine (inhouse, Unreal 2 (long time ago, I know ;) ) )... But then, use what fits your needs and your pocket. It's not because Unity makes usage of a "pay once, use many" license deal, that any 3rd party developer offering enhancements/improvements to Unity must adopt the say pricing structure. If Autodesk Kynapse would directly support Unity in a plug&play style, no one would complain about the pricing structure. Or they would, but would also resign to continue because it's a big company behind the software and not a small one.

    And my comment was not directly targeted at you even through it was the trigger. As Christian said in his reply to your comment, the pricing has been subject to complains...

    That said, thumbs up for offering Indie Licenses.
     
  28. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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  29. seon

    seon

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    Christian, whats the deal with version 1.1? Do you have an ETA? Especially about when the Nat Facilitator will be available?

    I am un-able to register a MasterServer game here (from my house) as uLink is not resolving my Host/IP correctly.

     
  30. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Hi Seon!

    It is great to see you having a go with uLink! But, I am afraid I would go a bit off topic to handle support issues here but you are welcome to put them here . David is taking a closer look at your issue. However, I am happy to tell you that we are looking at a release of uLink 1.1 within a couple of weeks. It even look so promising that it might be before that even, but since we do software and do not take any short cuts, you get humble...
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  31. seon

    seon

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    Thanks Christian. I have posted the question/issue to your community shapado site... just waiting on some feedback.
     
  32. Tzan

    Tzan

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    Not sure if this had been mentioned yet.

    Are the uGame SQL/Database and uLobby part of the same price or will they be sold separately?
     
  33. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    Thanks Tzan for the question!

    No, it has not been mentioned but uGame SQL/DB and uLobby will be sold separably as they are completely independent from uLink and can be used together with any network. What tehy all have in common is that they are deeply integrated with Unity.
     
  34. Christian_Lonnholm

    Christian_Lonnholm

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    So there, we sold our last indie licence. Thank you! =)
     
  35. ElectricCrow

    ElectricCrow

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    One of my programmers brought this to my attention in hopes it would spark my interest for a game we are working on and I have to say, $750 for everything we need to run our MMORPG looks good to me! I'm very excited to have found this.
     
  36. JamesArndt

    JamesArndt

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    I know it's kind of necroing this thread, but does this require Unity Pro or will it work with my Unity Basic Mobile license?
     
  37. Bariel

    Bariel

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    You're mixing your licenses a little here you listed Unity Pro which is a desktop product and Unity Basic Mobile which is mobile product.

    Desktop
    uLink works with either Unity Basic or Pro

    Mobile
    Looking at the license comparison - http://unity3d.com/unity/licenses then .Net socket support is only included with the Pro versions of the mobile platforms. So uLink and other socket based solutions will only work with a Pro license
     
  38. JamesArndt

    JamesArndt

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    Yeah I suppose I did mix up my licenses there. So I guess no go for mobile development unless you have a Pro license for mobile.