make it easier for non programmers to use

make it easier for non programmers to use because at the moment its quite hard for non programmers to do anything

 

Care to be more specific? That's a pretty broad suggestion.

 

Many non-programmers achieve things via Unity... perhaps begin by explaining what you can't achieve.

 

Like what?

 

it is already quite easy for non programmers, considering how visual driven it is, at least for basic things

easier thant that probably only with game makers, like rpg maker

 

if it was made like that then we would have noobs runnign around thinking there pro. Programing is part of the process learn it or suffer

 

We already have those, we would just have more.

 

haha true but these ones would be more noobish

 

Isn`t the reason that we all use Unity because it is easier and faster to use than C++ and a engine? Unity is already at its way to a simpler approach, compared to pure language. So what is to say against making the pipeline even simpler? I for myseslf want to make games. As fast and comfortable as possible. And when there would be an "make my awesome game" button, then i would use it. I would prefer to be the noob, and get my things done. Making all the other stuff like graphics and music or just to code the core game mechanics is time consuming enough

 

And so would you and millions of others. I would create a program that just presses this button all day.

Do you think this is going to create good, unique games? How would you, for example, even tell it what genre your interested in? All you have is a button!

 

It would have parameters. And scripts attached to those parameters. And 3d models, sounds, animations. And good name for such button would be "Compile". All you would need to do is create the rest

 

@NPSF3000, I believe Tiles was simply saying 'the easier the better'.

 

Even easier? =-/ Unity's interface and scripting is so simple that I think even "visual" logic editors would be more difficult. It's ridiculously simple and easy imho. Some people (like me) may enjoy programming games. Otherwise i could simply take one of the numerous permissive opensource games (zlib-style) and mod them. Have you considered talking to some people to do the things that you have difficult? Notice that it's very hard to do a game alone, because it's improbable that someone has the knowledge and competence to do everything (3d graphics, textures, menu design, sounds, story, scripting, maps, organic models, animations, publishing, a website, etc. etc.). I think i wouldn't enjoy something simpler as i'm enjoying Unity as it is right now. I'm sure an experienced and balanced team of 10 people would be able to do everything on Unity with zero-difficulty.

@ Tiles, I like your approach, this is more like a "producer" though... if you think like this you proably want to be a games producer, not a programmer / designer / artist... I like the way you think. I don't give a lerp to what others will say also, i prefer to have things done. Peeple talk a lot and produce a little. Better be a noob and have a game done than be a chatter and say how to do things "the right way" without any actual product.

I'm saying this because i'm tired of people saying bullsheesh to me for example, when i'm programming in python, people say C++ is what good programmers use, or things like this:
IMHO, the right tool is the one you can get things done with. No matter if it's a "make everything while i take a coffee" button.
The result is what matter.

Sorry my english.

 

And I was simply saying that easiness <> better.

 

So you prefer the hard way when you could have the easier one? Hm. It can`t be easy enough for me. Maybe you mix easy with simple and limited ? But that`s not what i want

One example is the whole GUI creation in Unity. We have a visual approach for the 3D content. But still the "do it the hard way" programming approach when it comes to GUI creation. This could be speed up dramatically when we would have the same visual approach than in 3D view. Drag n drop, and add behaviour then. And Tools like EzGUI does. You can create the same functionality with it than with programming, but you can do it much easier and faster.

I would even be happy with what snoopy initially wanted, the non programming approach. Something like bricks you click together. As long as you can still fully modify and expand those bricks to your needs. And in fact even this gets done already. With the car tutorial for example. You don`t even really have to understand how it works. Simply rebuild and tweak. I would be green with a button that inserts the whole thing at once into my project. Why intend the wheel from scratch again and again? I want to make a car game, so here we go.

Easy can mean that i can finish a game project that i would normally not be able to finish. Because the human life span is limited

One word to unique games. The genres are defined since years. I the end, a MMORPG is nothing else than a Pac Man clone. Nearly all games are somehow variations of long existing concepts. Very rare case nowadays that a really new genre pops up. You can play tenthousands of ego shooters nowadays, tenthousands of jump n runs, tenthousands of ...

 

I've yet to see a system like that which isn't more difficult than just writing code, at least once you get past trivial logic and into anything complex. They just don't scale well.

Hmm, no. I could think of some things a typical MMORPG (I assume you mean WoW) is like, but Pac Man wouldn't be it.

Mostly because of commercial concerns, not because "it's all been done". There's been a fair amount of experimentation on iOS, for example. I can't say games like Zen Bound, Eliss, etc. are really like anything else.

--Eric

 

Nope - but don;t think that by having a tool make things easier for you, that making a game will be easier. Sure today I don't have to write in assembly - or even C - but look at the competition: Crysis, Halo, COD...

Your the one that brought up the button analogy

Now this is a specific request that has much merit. +1

Because to get it to do anything different you would need a coder. By the same token I could ask Unity to give me a thousand premade 3D models - but even if I do something awesome with them much value has already been lost. If you want to do this MOD a game.

Easy - work in a team.

By the very same token I can say art hasn't changed a thing. I still appreciate new art though - don't like playing with the same models time and again.

------

I don't mind people asking for specific things to be easier, but if you want just to put art etc. into an existing game - mod something.

 

Whoah, so much points to go on with discussion. I try my best to keep it going, hehe

I´ve seen it in 2d. To name Gamemaker for example. Nearly everything 2D is possible with it. I`ve seen promising 3d approaches too. 3D Rad for example. Or even such limited tools like FPS Creator. Not everybody is made to write code. Like not everybody is made to make graphics or to write music. Programming is an art at its own. So it may be that it`s easier for you. But it is harder for lots others.

Hm, spawn around, collect items, avoid to get killed. Does that somehow sound familiar to you?

Anyways, there are of course big differences between Pac Man and WOW. That`s not the point. The point is the mechanical parts repeats. You need AI. The basic AI is always the same. Invade, attack, escape. You need a menu. The basic menu parts are always the same too. Play button, Howto Button, Exit Button ...

And these are the parts that could be turned into bricks, which are good enough for standard needs. And in best case then just gets thrown into a level, and could save you lots of work.

Of course it`s not all done yet. But the main genres are defined. It`s not that every new game opens up a new genre ike in the old days. That was my point. In fact the game industry is very conservative here. Don`t be risky. Repeat, and just repeat what works. That`s what you mean with commercial concerns i guess

That`s the hardest thing you can try. It has its reason why i prefer to work alone. I already had my fun with teamwork. More than once
But i must admit that i had also working teamwork. And then it`s really great

I think at this point we need to separate the hobby part from the business part. A single hobbyist will never reach the quality of Halo. A hobbyteam will rarely reach the quality of Halo. A professional team may reach the quality of Halo. But it has its price.

Having an easy to use tool can make the difference if you are able to just write your first prototype, or if you are able to finish the development. Just because it is ways more work with another tool that is not so easy to handle. What is better? a perfect prototype that never gets finished into a game? Or a not so perfect finished game?

So for the hobbyist, does it make sense to use the most professional tools when you cannot reach the goal with it anyways because development lasts too long? Or does it make more sense to use the more limited, but easier and faster to use tool. Which allows you to finish what you start. Even when the price is lower quality? This game in lower quality may still sell because of the gamefun it brings ...

No mod game. I already named Gamemaker. You can do nearly everything 2D with it, without writing a single line of code. It is the goal here that you don`t need a programmer anymore. This can be done with the right bricks.

To stay with your 3d models analogy. It is more a question for bodyparts that can be reused. Not thousands of premade 3D models

Partially. A character will always look different. A language is a bit more exact though.


Mh, i have the feeling that this discussion leads to an "Either-Or" thing. I would prefer to have this non programming approach in addition to the programming approach. That would be the golden edge here. Basic bricks for a quick result that saves you lots of time. And programming to expand and extend whereever it is needed.

 

Hehehe - yeah, finding good teams can be hard

Yes and no. The work you do in unity not only can achieve exceptional results (with sufficient experience) - interstellar marines for example, it can also be used as an springboard to get to the heights of 'halo' (whether as successful game company, or simply as a portfolio piece that gets you the job).

Easy to use is fine. But you have to specify what you want to be easier. If you simply want something with no programming - there already are options out there as already outlined.

As above

Two key things to note here:

While I'm a touch out, most people I've seen trying to do anything non-trivial end up using GML(written code) for its simplicity.

And secondly, coding with bricks is still coding.

If your aesthetically challenged - all you will end up with is a bunch of misfit creatures. The more choice you give someone, the more they are fulfilling that role. The less choice you give them, the more pre-made you rely upon.

A language will look the same as a polygon will look the same :O

The problem is that the OP has not articulated the problem well - leading to meaningless argument.

If you don't like coding:

*Form a team.
*Work on someone-else's team.
*Hire a programmer.
*Use another engine.
*Use visual programming tools.
*Learn to code (hehehe).
*Mod a game.
*Mod an existing unity game/example.
*Buy a framework built on unity.
*....

Unity has put an absolute ton of effort in building what appears to be one of the best coding systems on the planet - if you want them to make it to be *easier* some serious justification is needed.

 

Well, for me the statement of the OT makes perfect sense and is clearly articulated. As told, there are game creation systems out there where you simply throw some graphics into a level, attach a fps script to some players, setup some values, and you have a FPS game running <- simplified said of course. It is still a bit more work than that. But ways less than to code everything from scratch. And this would be fine to have with Unity too

That would be the next step. GUI creation was already mentioned. Scripts for the behaviour of a FPS character would be another one. Or a ready to use car with proper setup physics. Or something like a minimap object. Or ... all these standard things. The non programming approach would mean to create enough standard bricks so that you could be able to create a racing game without any programming. Or a simple FPS without any programming. Or a simple RPG without any programming. Or a simple *insert your genre here* . And yes, this would be an enourmous amount of effort to develop something in this direction. Which could on the other hand reduce the effort to make one of the standard genre games dramatically.

 

Based on the few sentences of the topicstarter I'd say: it doesn't get much easier than what you have here. You can of course try out the blender game engine. It supports logic bricks with lots of sensors, support of regular expressions, actuators with the ability to provide velocity/physics. But this only seems easier on the very first view. Once you need to get a decent game done you'll realize the limitations of this system and that even writing code is easier and much cleaner.

 

I don't know where this comes from, but it goes something like this:
"Nothing in this life that comes easy is worth having."

If you want to create a game that isn't really tiny, you won't be able to learn and do everything in a reasonable amount of time. (3D, animating, sounds, scripting, etc.). Either accept your limitations or get a team

 

Winning the lottery proves this statement wrong!

 

Yes, it's very easy to win the lottery .

 

I think it would be strange to use unity and not be able to program. Programming MAKES the game work.

 

There is a reason the activity to create Programs is called Programming, cause its this activity that creates them.
No programming = no program, applied to the media genre such a non-program is widely known as movie nowadays

 

We need artificial intelligence (AI) integrated into Unity. Quite as dumb one as an average coder out there would be sufficient for most artists

 

Udk is more difficult with kismet in my opinion.

 

there is no such thing as "AI" you can just integrate
AI is game specific and needs a lot of work.

if it were as easy as a generic solution then most games wouldn't suck like hell on the AI end, especially not all those weak lousy shooters (only a minority of shooters has a reasonable AI for 2010 and their 10M+ budgets)

 

From what I am reading, you don't want to be able to create games without programming, you just want someone else to do that programming for you. I hear mention of these "blocks" that you just put together and while I don't know the specifics of what these "blocks" are, it still sound like programming. You still have to links the "blocks" up to do what you want, right? Programming is at it's most basic level just logic which is what you are doing.

Another problem with these "blocks" is that everyone is going to have very similar game logic. Take for instance the 3rd person camera script that unity provides. I am sure that will work for some people but for other it will not. They might be able to use this "block" and build off of it however they might want to do something that is just impossible based on how the current "block" is constructed in which case they would probably just create one from scratch to work how they need it to work.

No matter how much people want it, there will always be some level of programming involved in development applications (whether games, desktop, etc...) whether it is write code in a text editor, linking up logic in a visual editor, or what might even come in the future.

Also, if creating games with drag and drop applications were easy and provided quality games why haven't were seen many big titles from them? I not saying none of them have had successful titles but not a lot of them have made it into mainstream media (which of course does not mean it is not a fantastic game). There is a reason why the big studios very rarely switch from using the big engines like Unreal, Source, etc... and when they do, obviously that engine has something unique or and easier workflow with similar quality to offer.

 

Interesting discusion.

I also would like to have a more friendly programming environment in unity.

I think for people like me (Graphical Artist/web-designer) it would be more accessible to get into coding. Trigger the taste for programming.
When i first start with unity (very resent) i got overwhelmed with the coding part, and tossed it aside (i used Anark to this point) but still was/ am very interested in the things i could do with it. i bought a few books and followed some tuts but still im not grasping the coding part. The irritation comes from knowing what i like to do but know how to i.e. <on mouse down turn object_x left+10> if you understand Java or one of the other programming languages that would be very easy. for me this is a big headache.

If i would be able to make very simple games with visual-logic blocks or easier scripts i would more interested to learn more and dig deeper in to the scripting and eventually would learn to program in small baby steps.

If you look to a program like Anark (i make simple Multi-Media applications for disabled people to learn and play with) you can create for i.e.
a button and it has a action pallet to it that has some prefixed statements that can either listen or tell action for example
tell object-X on mouse_click rotate 360degrees you also can attach some ready made (like rotate, move, scale change colour) or write scripts like in Unity and call them on a event like mouse down, keypress or a specific time.


This will not help me build any games i can sell but it will help me to get a grasp of develop simple projects and get my ideas out there (for simple games) and understand the work flow on how to tackle such a project and pipe-line.

Sure there will be a ton of pong and pac-man clones but if it also will sprout new creative minds who first where scared of the coding but who made the leap to unity after they did there first steps into it. (not that i'm such a person)

If you look like a program like game factory that has such a logic-system it turned out some very nice and enjoyable games.

I agree you should learn to code if you want to make a good game ,but for some people a mediocre or even a bad game would be very nice to create and who know what it leads to. good games aren't the games with millions lines of codes but the games with a good and simple idea.

 

My $0.02:
Unity is almost 50% about scripting... If you take an easy way out, all your scripts will be crap. Why don't newbies just learn (like me, but I still am) scripting instead?

 

Don't you remember when you were a COMPLETE noob? Me either. But I do remember wanting something that I could just click, drag, and make instacash lol. Anyways, the reasons is probably because they want it to be as easy as possible.

 

Sure i want it easy as it can be. why run when you can ride.

I curse every day that i cant script and struggle to learn the java scripting, but for me (I'm Dutch) learning a new languages in a different languages doesn't make things any simpler. I wish there where good Dutch trainings programs i could follow or be able to find a good dutch mentor.

I'm just saying it would be nice to get some basic blocks to get you starting with unity to tickle my motivation and get me going on my way.
I'm not saying that it should be a click 'n play editor with no scripting at all.

 

You should use a button that makes that program to push that button.
Then you should push a button to make that program that pushes a button that makes a program that pushes the first button.
Then you should push a button that makes a program to push a button, which crates a program that pushes a button, which creates a program to push the first button.
And so on...

 

Lol

 

I love the way Virtools and Kismet work. I can program with those tools fine even though I'm a complete tool as far as coding goes. I think it's only "simpler" for someone who already knows how to write in code.

 

Virtools or Quest3D ?
This will be soon in Unity.

 

Its not a game engine if you can't program on it now is it?
And I also might add there are addons for the engine that can make behaviours for those who can't script.
I might also mention that you often build games with I dont know a team?? and each team member has a diffrent job like:

Scripting (Most important part of game design)

Modeling,

Enviroment making,

textureing,

And thats only 4 there is alot more then that freinds.
Do you pepole think that a company like valve or bungie make there games by one man or somthing????
Build a team, don't going crying to the makers of unity to make it easy for pepole who can't script its just a waste of time.

 

@ Lucky Dog

Not everyone is out to build the next Halo or WoW. some people just want to make a nice screensaver or a small game.

The most memorable in history games where done by a single or very small teams:
Pong, Pacman, Tetris, missle command etc.
And there are still very nice games that where done by one person today.

Stating the Scripting is the most importand of the development is a crude overstatement.
Yes, its very important, but modeling, mechanics (game concept) music, texturing are also very importand and al these elements make a break a game.
I even would go so far to say Scripting is the most likely to disapear and be taking over by computer-processed script engines. Because its logic its very likely to get automated by more friendly programtools like virtools or playmaker.
The other elements are creative and cant not be done by computer (not any time soon any ways).

If you take for example Little big planet 2, it has the power to recreate almost every retro-game out there and if you see what the community is creating with it is mind-boggeling, but al created without scripting or programming. on a console you mind so without the use of even a keyboard or mouse.
imaging what they could do with a engine like unity if it was a bit more creative thinking and a little less programming.
Off-course little big planet was made by programmers and a big team, but what would happen if they set out to build a game engine.

I'm not trying to get in a fight here just to share my ideas and toughts.

 

Ha, I highly doubt this one.

 

Kick ass Neodrop. when will you have a polished beta? I cant wait.

 

I hope to february.
We should to create the docs, which still complitely not present yet.

 

Any change i can have a go at the beta?

Thank you very much!

Also:
I'm wondering what you're vision on the future of scripting is

 

I think, this thread is not pointed on my VIZIO. Lets talking about it here.

 

Rubbish, you clearly are not putting in enough effort if you think it's too complicated. Compared to other engines Unity is a cakewalk.

I came in to Unity from an art background and had to takeover coding of an ENTIRE game as the coder left the project! Made a fully fledged web cam based game in 3D in a few months.

Any thing is possible if you put your mind to it pretty much...

 

actually its very easy...

 

Asking for a "make my script" button is like asking for a "make my art look nice" button; it won't fully replace skill and effort.

Scripting looks very intimidating mostly because of the way it's written. However, I find that having a good grasp of realworld languages also helps a lot in understanding scripting languages, just as much as having a solid grasp of advanced mathematics helps with low-level languages such as C++ or assembly.

We -do- get it easy with Unity because a great majority of the "game engine" parts, involving heavy maths, mind-bending workarounds and cross-platform support are taken care of and we "only" need to script our game logic ontop of it. It's not perfect, of course, but it's doing a better job at it than most middleware out there because it gets out of the way.

The most important skill you -require- for scripting, regardless of using a visual or textbased tool, is logic. If you have a good grasp on logic, the scripting interface is just that; an interface. It doesn't matter much at this point whether it's made of typing or stacking boxes together, or a visual aid to script logic like in Construct.

I would go so far to say that scripting is going to -merge- with game design, and give designers more and more tools to push their creative visions and rule systems into the games by themselves, letting programmers worry about the technology behind it all. But even the most "user-friendly" visual interface or automation tool won't replace the skills required for the fine art of designing innovative games, just like photoshop enhanced our drawing tools, but did not fully replace the requirement for a good drawing ability to pull off unique art styles.