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iPhone OS4 today

Discussion in 'iOS and tvOS' started by maxfax2009, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. GhostDog

    GhostDog

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    So I guess we don't need lawyers anymore. Riiiiight.
     
  2. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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  3. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    If it was that clear, there wouldn't be 23+ pages of discussion here, plus umpteen thousands of posts in dozens of other locations. If it was that clear, there would have been a plain "yes, you're fine" or "no, you're screwed" answer by now. (Or maybe, "we have to change some stuff but it'll be sorted eventually.")

    --Eric
     
  4. carlj

    carlj

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    You say I shouldn't judge you then you go right ahead and judge me?

    I know about obfuscation, I myself am a programmer. Obfuscation won't work for two reasons,
    1) The minute Apple spot obfuscated code they will reject the App.
    2) Obfuscation is only for managed code, the idea being using C++, C, Obj-C would produce native code which is what Apple want. Native software written using their tools, on their OS, using their debug tools, etc.
     
  5. aaronsullivan

    aaronsullivan

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    Wow. Hard to get through the noise. So... I guess I could just say that and link back to what I consider an informative post at the end of the last page.

    http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=297280#297280

    Basically, that Appleinsider article might have some weight behind it because of the way that Apple plans to serialize apps when switching from them.
     
  6. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Been thinking on this for these past twenty-two pages.

    I too am a long-time developer of 12 years (Animation Director on Borderlands was my recent work /self-plug) and have working hard to get a game together by myself with all the same hopes and dreams as the rest here...this news inevitably will worry us.

    Occams Razor tells me this is a counter to Adobes CS5 initiative.

    I see no reason for Apple to limit their pool of developers, SO many of whom have created startling successful products.

    For certain, many of these games were developed without Unity, fine. Many games were.

    If it's an issue of controlling the development environment, as mentioned we're already required to use Xcode and be a licensed Apple developer...unlikely.

    If it's an issue of cross-platform distribution, exclusivity runs a better course than outright developer isolation. Effectively anyone who has an iPhone does not have an Android and vice versa. It would be naive of Apple to think a 'single application/game' would convert a user from one platform over to the other so there is no real gain but either way its easily solvable; contractually if you make an iPhone/iPad game you cannot distribute your title to a competing platform, fine...so this is unlikely too.

    If it's an issue of controlling quality, someone else mentioned Nintendo; Apple has every right to start rejecting apps based on a Quality Approved criteria. In other words, a developer can use Unity to make a "Fart App", and be rejected. Another developer makes Zombieville with Unity, matching or surpassing the quality of the top tier apps. Why reject the next great quality app that not only makes Apple money, but brings recognition as a 'quality' gaming platform, and allows top tier dev's to increase their prices...this seems unlikely and arbitrary.

    My gut tells me this is an unfortunate move against Flash knowing full well the history between the two companies, and while it would appear to affect middleware apps, middleware has proven industry-wide to be the de facto course for future rapid prototyping and development (can't even begin to count the number of Unreal games I've worked on)...

    ...I can't fathom any good reason why Apple would essentially toss us (Apple dev's) back into the proverbial stone-age of development when they only gain from quality applications quickly created supporting their beloved platforms.

    I don't expect my post to abate real concerns, of which I have the same, but I sincerely feel this is going to be the course and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it doesn't even affect Adobe CS5. I don't know why I feel this, maybe it's experience or maybe I'm glass-half-full...

    Cheers
     
  7. carlj

    carlj

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    Lawyers are meant to get around said laws using the shadiest tactics around. That's their job.

    It is that clear though. http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/09/adobe-go-screw-yourself-apple-2/
    Do you see Adobe talking crap about how "unclear" the language is? No. They see it for what it is and are reacting appropriately, not pussy footing around and trying to convince themselves it means something else which is what you and many other users seem to be doing.
     
  8. Hanford

    Hanford

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    I haven't read through all 24 pages of this so I'm sorry if this has not been discussed:

    Can we simply not upgrade to iPhone OS 4 and continue to develop for the iPhone with Unity?

    As it has been stated elsewhere, if you target iPhone OS 4 you lose out on all the phones that won't be able to upgrade to OS 4.

    Not a long term solution, but it seems like it will do for quite a while.
     
  9. Troy-Dawson

    Troy-Dawson

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    So. . . are GLSL vertex and fragment programs not application code, or are we stuck with the straight-C interface of OpenGL ES?

    The letter of the license says the latter.
     
  10. GhostDog

    GhostDog

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    C and C++ aren't managed. They CAN be. But they aren't necessarily. I've done the technique in several languages including C.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscated_code

    "Some languages may be more prone to obfuscation than others.[1][2] C,[3] C++,[4] and Perl[5] are most often cited as easy to obfuscate. Macro preprocessors are often used to create hard-to-read code by masking the standard language syntax and grammar from the main body of code. The term shrouded code has also been used."

    I wasn't judging you btw. All I said in case you missed my post or didn't understand it. It could have been either one and there's no judgment in either. Apologies if it came across as an attack.

    Can't argue with that. but to say EULA's, especially in the software industry, are clear, concise, and unable to be interpreted in different ways is a stretch. Cmon carlj..you have to a least give us that ;)

    That was a blogger quoted an Adobe platform evangelist...he's SUPPOSED to say stuff like that. Just look at what happens to Higgy after a couple of beers...something about Gamebryo and a goat IIRC ;). Notice it's not the Adobe CEO who has HUGE vested interests in running on Apple products (photoshop, after effects, etc).
     
  11. Foxxis

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    What mostly concerns me now is the lack of official communication. The silence can only really be interpreted in three ways IMHO:

    1. Apple has provided Unity with information that isn't good. Unity is forming a plan and will communicate it when they are ready.

    2. Apple didn't intend the new wording to have the effect we fear. It was intended to block Adobe, but not much more. Now they are in a tight spot if they want to approve Unity apps and reject flash apps. Tricky = no official answer.

    3. The silence may be a strategy. Maybe they do want to discourage middleware but aren't willing to come right out and say so. It would hamper the success of Unity and other engines without much of the fallout of the public route.

    I had hoped to see this resolved before the weekend, but now I'll just have to try to block it out until monday... :)
     
  12. Foxxis

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    Maybe you should read the 24 pages. ;)
    This has little to do with the OS version, and more to do with Apple's intent regarding legal development platforms (for whatever reason).
     
  13. MadMax

    MadMax

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    What are you a politician? I cannot help if I respect companies like Porsche, Sony and Toshiba and disrespect companies like GM, Apple, Dell and General Electric. Plus bigger is not always better.
     
  14. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    CS5 isn't Unity. I'm not trying to "convince" myself of anything; I'm waiting to hear what the final answer actually is, since there have been a couple of statements from UT saying that things are OK but they're still looking into it. Right now I don't know and neither do you.

    ...Sony?!

    --Eric
     
  15. Foxxis

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    Have Unity devs / David said that things are OK? The only thing I have read is that they say they have received no indication from Apple that things have changed and that they are looking into it?
    Getting no notification from Apple is hardly an indication that everything is OK in my book... :)
     
  16. GhostDog

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    Cool...give Dave Eddings and Randy a swift kick in the shin for me. Old friends of mine. Also, I play TF2 with ninjew who did a lot of the PS3 SPU work...tell him to come back to TF2. I haven't seen him since we played you guys in the Game Developer League.

    sry...back on topic...

    EULA, iPhone 4.0 OS, etc, we're all screwed...blah.
     
  17. championsoftware

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    I think everyone just needs to calm down. If I had to bet, Unity will figure this out, and lets be honest here, more apps = more revenue = more sales of iPhones.

    If Apple screws all of us, then we give them the finger and flood the Android Market with apps. If I had to guess I don't think Apple wants that happening. (Yes all of our games will probably go to Android anyway, but if Apple screws us only Android will have them)

    Also some very high quality and top selling games have been produced with Unity , increasing the iPhone's image and making Apple a lot of money. Why would they want to terminate that?
     
  18. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Ha! You know unfortunately (or fortunately I haven't decided :D ) I'm not with Gearbox anymore, so being old friends you'd have a better time doing the kicking...plus you're a LOT closer (my legs aren't that long).

    Okay sry x2 back on topic :p
     
  19. Eric5h5

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    Right: "We have no indication from Apple that things are going to change. We have a great relationship with Apple and will do everything we can to comply with Apple's TOS (also, these are 'beta TOS,' and these easily get changed) so that we can provide uninterrupted service to our more than 120,000 users."

    That's not a solid answer one way or another. And the "easily changed" part gets overlooked too much...like with iPad development, where originally it was "you vill support all orientations of the iPad or ve vill destroy you." Then there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, primarily from game developers. Then the terms changed, and now you're just encouraged to do this instead of it being a hard requirement.

    --Eric
     
  20. carlj

    carlj

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    Apology accepted. :)
    I agree EULA are very open ended as a whole, i.e. if you look at the whole document their will be many holes in it but if you drill down to specific statements then there is only so much interpretation that can be done.

    I doubt the/a CEO would come out though and tell Apple to go screw itself. Adobe need Apple as much as Apple need Adobe. Apple have suddenly gone on the attack and are lambasting Adobe with hate for no apparent reason. Sure Flash is buggy but for Apple to go all out on this says that theres much more to it then we are being led to believe.
     
  21. HiggyB

    HiggyB

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    Ok, I just caught up on the last 10 pages or so since my last reply/round of reading. Whew, lots in here. Let me start by saying this:


    Chill out!


    I'm not here to say "don't worry", I'm simply asking that folks bring it down a notch or three. There is no reason for folks here to get surly with each other, with us, or even yet with Apple. This is new information that requires interpretation and as has happened before, the agreement terms may change before the new OS is finally shipped so nothing is set in stone. And before anyone here gets on me about how you have every right to get riled up due to your investment and concern, ask yourself this: do any of you have as big of an investment in the iPhone as we do? We not only have all the money and time spent on developing tools for iPhone development, but a massive customer base that we will need to take care of in some way if any of this results in negative fallout. So I ask for calm and patience, with a side order of concern and wary eye about these changes, fully understanding the weight of existing investment in the Unity + iPhone arena... :)


    With that out of the way, allow me to comment on a few particular posts in this thread.


    Agreed, folks should not yet be talking about getting lawyers to get their money back from us just yet. We are 100% committed to our user base and that means that we're putting everything we can into ensuring that Unity remains a viable middleware solution for Apple's mobile devices. If/when we come to a point where that's not possible we will of course take appropriate steps with existing customers to deal with that situation.


    Well, it wasn't a direct threat of a lawsuit but this was said:
    Saying things like "contact a lawyer, and get back your money from Unity" smells to me like a thinly veiled threat for suing us and triggered my response as well. We aren't the cause of all this and are definitely at your (the developer's) side in all this, we're putting resources on this problem in the hopes that we can avoid any impact on you guys at all. :)


    The slowdown was noticed and commented on elsewhere (in Gossip, here), remember there is life outside of this issue and this part of the forums! :p The gist was that the slowdown was due to some database table corruption that had gone on and that our team repaired today. The slowdown had nothing at all to do with the number of users online.


    We don't have any plans that we're ready to share here, our first and primary goal for the time being is to avoid that end result and we're confident that we'll be able to do that. Sure, some brain cycles have been spent pondering the worst case scenarios, but those are loose conversations at this point and certainly not something to share as a "plan". In the end if that sort of result occurs then we will obviously do something sensible in order to take care of our customers.


    David is working on a blog post for our own site today and once that is up I plan on creating a new sticky thread at the top of this forum that will point to it as our "official statement" for now, separately I will leave this thread in place as-is for ongoing discussion. Naturally I will edit the first post to include a link to David's blog as well as update my signature to get broad visibility. Oh, and of course I'll post on the IRC channel, Twitter, etc. as well.


    In parting I want to again ask for folks to calm down a bit. Please keep that keen eye on this issue, just do so without the anger that seemed to be bubbling up in this thread before. We are all in this together, we're united in the cause and so let's stay together. We at Unity Technologies stand behind our technology and our customers, you are the air we breathe and the water we drink and for that, we'll fight tooth and nail on your behalf. Just give us a little time to carry out that battle and we'll update everyone once we've had a chance to talk with Apple about all of this. Sound fair? I hope so.


    Until next time (which I'm sure I'll be posting again soon), rock on people!
     
  22. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Perfect time for Unity to spill info's on Android dev! (um in light of a redlight Apple regarding this topic).

    ...so what IS the Android development envrion like? Anyone know details on how the store works, percentages cut, dev license costs etc? (not to OT the thread, just perhaps a blurb response? )
     
  23. Gaspedal

    Gaspedal

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    When Apple kick out Unity, then Apple must kick out all other Engines too. (Unreal Engine, Engines from EA and Capcom. All this Engines using libraries to calls documented SDK API's.

    But I think, this companies have enough money to legalize their enignes. Long Live Capitalism!
     
  24. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    Fully agree, and I'm aware of the past changes. What is problematic though is the silence, especially if it lasts. It is hard to push ahead when there is no way to know if you can distribute on your target platform.

    Well, I'm off to bed. Hopefully this will be solved when I wake up. :)
     
  25. carlj

    carlj

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    CS5 isn't Unity correct but they both do the same thing. That's why they both are affected by this EULA change.

    UT aren't going to say anything until they are 100% sure on what they are saying, to be expected from any company. Btw UT saying things are "OK" is, I hate to say it... lies (aka damage control). This change if it stands puts their key product at risk so I can assure you they aren't popping champagne bottles in celebration of this change.
     
  26. HiggyB

    HiggyB

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    Or you're flat out wrong and there is a fourth reason: we want to be ULTRA-careful about this and make sure that we take appropriate steps and give this due diligence before putting out "official communication". Look at the amount of panic right now, if we put in one grammatical error then you'll be here saying "that can only mean one of three things!". :p

    So the fourth option you missed is that we want to be sure that anything we say now is appropriate, correct and on target, and as noted above David Helgason is working on that right now. Until then there is "communication" in the form of me and others posting here, I've been on the IRC channel most of the day answering questions, I've been all over Twitter today, my email Inbox has been a swirling storm of incoming and outgoing messages, it's hard to even have IM open as I've handled a gazillion messages. So we are responding to request for information to keep lines of communication open while we work on that official comment (from the top, CEO). So please, calm yourself and wait just a bit longer... :)

    Edit: and that's just what *I* have been doing, that doesn't count the sales and support email queue, emails/IMs/phone calls others have been handling, etc. :)
     
  27. SteveB

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    In response to your last large post Higgy, I don't think it's even fair for you to have to dignify any talk of lawsuits. I'll give sama.van the benefit of the doubt since English seems to be his second language and the smiley indicates humor...

    ...BUT...

    ...seriously lawsuits?! I just facepalm'd my S*** out'my chair. I didn't even catch that that was even suggested.

    People please.

    :)
     
  28. HiggyB

    HiggyB

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    And I'll admit, I could have misread that and/or that was nothing like what was intended, but when I see "contact a lawyer" and "get your money back from UT" in the same sentence it makes me sit upright and think "lawsuit?". So hopefully that's not at all what was intended, sama.van has been a very cool guy thus far and so on the whole I too give him more than the benefit of the doubt and would love some correction on my post! :)

    Regardless, I'll say it to the cows come home: we stand by you, our customers, until the end! Let's face this, and get past this, together.

    Unity <- it's more than just our product's name
     
  29. SteveB

    SteveB

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    ^I love cool people.
     
  30. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    Please don't take my post as criticism towards you and/or colleagues for the lack of an official word. I fully understand your position.

    Still, my points are still valid IMHO. The fact that you haven't been able to get a quick answer out must surely be that there is no good, easy answer as of yet. Which in turn indicates Apple is quiet or not saying the things you and we would like to hear.

    So, yeah, that has me worried. ;)
     
  31. GhostDog

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    You noticed he went silent on the whole Gamebryo/goat comment. "Nothing to see here...move along..."
     
  32. MadMax

    MadMax

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    Ya Unity is really not the bad guy here.
     
  33. Luis-Felipe

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    http://theflashblog.com/?p=1888

    I seriously hope unity is left untouched!
     
  34. ezone

    ezone

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    Just throwing in my 2 cents for people new to Unity.

    The Unity devs and support team are the best around and have always come up with fixes to any changes/challenges that have been thrown at them. Just sit tight and let them work their magic!
     
  35. EricJ13

    EricJ13

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    I can dig that fo sho. Thanx for the comm - just pinging the thread with "we're working the issue" helps us feel "in the loop".
     
  36. Troy-Dawson

    Troy-Dawson

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    I worked at Apple in a previous life and one thing I quickly internalized is that one really can't throw out the word "Apple" around as if it's an independent agent, eg. "Apple did ___" or "Apple is ____".

    When I was there, there were five kingdoms arrayed in a circle of buildings of four floors each, each floor with 100-odd offices and labs.

    Apple is some factor larger now and with an industry footprint 100X as big, as represented by its market cap, but if things are anything like they were Unity has access to one kingdom, fans in another, but these lower principalities have to conform with the company line from the Suzerain honcho sitting atop AC1, and that doesn't happen instantly.

    Higgy's update is more than I what I could expect. UT is a great force of good :)
     
  37. podperson

    podperson

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    Simple example: pascal and c hand parameters to functions differently (in the compiled code). If you compile x to y to z there will be fingerprints at every stage. If I write an xyz to obj-c compiler the code will have patterns in it that handwritten obj c doesn't.
     
  38. ColossalDuck

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    Me too, but I also hope everything else is untouched by this as well.

    Everyone here seems to be against Adobe, and I understand why. But I don't think that there program should be banned from making iphone apps. Maybe they should change the way the apps are built, so only mac can build them. That would probably make Apple happy.
     
  39. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    so true :)
     
  40. codinghero

    codinghero

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    Ok, Mr. Will Blow Steve Jobs For Free, please illustrate how Microsoft is the bad guy today. This'll be fun! :D
     
  41. EricJ13

    EricJ13

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    Right on. They handled the whole private API thing very well IMHO. It took what, a week, for the update with the fix to be released? And they even offered folks that where in desperate need beta builds before that to speed things up. And a FREE iPad update the day the thing came out -that was great.

    I only hope this current issue isn't something they can't whup up on. And of course they need to update us every 15 minutes or so on exactly what they know, what they speculate, what they plan to do in every scenario, what really happened to the dinosaurs, etc. :D
     
  42. polytropoi

    polytropoi

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    I agree, but I prefer your option 2, in which Apple's zeal to cut out Flash led them to overlook the impact that language would have on other middleware like Unity, and now they don't want to just come out and say "we only meant Flash" or otherwise make the problem worse, so they're saying nothing till they figure it out.

    @Higgy, I don't think Foxis or any (or at least, few) of us imagine that the lack of info is UT's fault. But we do want to know more about the Gamebryo / goat thing.
     
  43. VIC20

    VIC20

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  44. Tempest

    Tempest

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  45. MadMax

    MadMax

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    Ok you got me Sony is still on my big list of hate.


    I like the way this guy thinks
    http://theflashblog.com/?p=1888
     
  46. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    Maybe not today but long ago - MS tried long ago to stop mono:





    MS v Apple is a losing war - WE SHOULD KEPT IT about SDK 4
     
  47. MikaMobile

    MikaMobile

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    Not that this is terribly conclusive or anything, but we just had Zombieville HD approved just a few minutes ago. It may not mean much since the new agreement took effect while it was in review... but I'm gonna go ahead and relax a little. :)
     
  48. codinghero

    codinghero

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    Uh, twist the truth much? They have not said "everything is fine." They said they don't think there's a problem, but they're looking into it. That means they don't know.
     
  49. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    YAY - good for you :)
     
  50. EricJ13

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    Yeah, good article. I don't know about dimeRocker specifically as an option because this is the first I've heard of it but having all eggs in one basket is risky in any arena. I was hoping to have firm enough footing this year to go after stuff other than App Store games, and other than games even, like kiosks. But as you say in your piece the App Store handles a lot of bases for us. It's a tough old world sometimes. Oh well, maybe I'll be going back to DoD contracting.