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iPhone OS4 today

Discussion in 'iOS and tvOS' started by maxfax2009, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    It's coming for developers today, and iPhone users in summer

    looks like a VERY good update, iAd 60% rev share :)

    Thousands of new API calls



    FYI: I (Tom Higgins, a.k.a. HiggyB) have edited this original post to make this thread a Sticky for higher visibility. In addition I want to point all readers to our blogs to stay up-to-date on things from our end:

    Unity and the iPhone OS 4.0, update (Wednesday, April 14th)
    Unity and the iPhone OS 4.0 (Friday, April 9th)
    Unity and the iPhone OS 4.0, update II (Tuesday, May 11th)
     
  2. posimaster.andrew

    posimaster.andrew

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    With the talk about the game center, it would be awesome to see it implemented into the unity framework. This would be awesome, considering the loops you have to jump through to try and get other 3rd party solutions working properly with unity. I can imagine it now.
    Code (csharp):
    1. gameCenter.completeAcheivement(id)
    lol
     
  3. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    Yes game center is so ace :)

    Achievements!

    Leaderboards!

    Including automatic matchmaking

    :)


    Xbox Live for the iPhone
     
  4. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    iPhone OS 4 beta is NOW live
     
  5. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

    Volunteer Moderator Moderator

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    I have to say that folder thing is pretty clever...elegant, and it solves the problem in a way that doesn't make the OS inherently more complex to use. And yeah it'd be nice to see the game center stuff in Unity. ;)

    --Eric
     
  6. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    Hi

    I know Unity is very busy with version 3 and I want that so much :)

    BUT yes iAd, Game Center should be added to Unity ASAP.


    Folders are cool too :)
     
  7. Paris_legacy

    Paris_legacy

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    "Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited."

    Does that not basically... ban Unity apps?

    Source: http://twitter.com/gruber/status/11837642274
    (Although if you're a developer you can presumably see it in the SDK on the dev site, not that you should be posting that as your source.)
     
  8. NitroPye

    NitroPye

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    I was JUST about to post that as well.

    Would love some input from anyone.
     
  9. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    wow - I hope not :(
     
  10. mattimus

    mattimus

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    This concerns me. I use my iphone for development, but it is also my primary means of communication. Right now I'm leaning towards not downloading the OS beta.
     
  11. bitomule

    bitomule

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    Someone tested unity iphone on 4.0 beta yet? I will be the first one?
     
  12. NitroPye

    NitroPye

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    Well thats pretty much the issue with any prerelease or beta...
     
  13. ColossalDuck

    ColossalDuck

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    I don't think so, I think it will be fine.

    Flash though, I think that is what they are destroying. The way the flash games will compile is probably what they are talking about, in which case all those developers of adobe flash will probably commit suicide.
     
  14. Tempest

    Tempest

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    About the new rule...

    I think it's targeting the Adobe Flash iPhone projects. If the projects are being developed on a PC, then there is some kind of translation going on for a PC project to work as an XCode project.

    I think Apple is just shutting down Adobe again. It's not saying "all third party dev tools are banned."
     
  15. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    @Tempest

    Flash: but the new Flash tool converts to iPhone native code so why would it mean Flash?

    If it's in native code how can they ban it?
     
  16. jerrodputman

    jerrodputman

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    I'm just concerned that in their, uh, zeal to ban Adobe, they're cutting out other legitimate solutions.
     
  17. NitroPye

    NitroPye

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    Is obvious Apple is targeting Adobe but that doesn't mean it will only get used to reject Adobe related things. How does Unity not fall into that legal text? Or does it?
     
  18. Paris_legacy

    Paris_legacy

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    I don't see much difference between what Flash does (or will do) and what Unity will do (the technologies are different, the principles are the same).

    Concerning.
     
  19. NitroPye

    NitroPye

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    My thoughts exactly. I don't quite understand the legal text and how it translates to the technology.
     
  20. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    its very concerning and I hope it can be made clear soon.
     
  21. Tempest

    Tempest

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    If it is on a PC, outside of the OSX environment, then something has gone wrong. Somewhere there is a "translation/compatibility layer" which is making it so that iPhone/XCode can run OUTSIDE of it's intended operating system.

    This is what the new rule says. If Unity used a translation/compatibility layer (Unity on a PC to make an iPhone game), then I'd be worried. But Unity is making iPhone games in the INTENDED development area.

    Big difference. Flash was going to make iPhone development on PC. Apple put in this rule.
     
  22. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    Makes sense.
     
  23. Tempest

    Tempest

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  24. codinghero

    codinghero

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    No, this is what the rule says:

    As I said in the other thread the fact that the .NET runtime is required in a Unity build suggests that it's acting as the compatibility layer that Section 3.3.1 prohibits. This is further discussed in 3.3.2 below:

    UnityScript most likely wouldn't be covered by these since it's internal to Unity, but Mono could be problematic.
     
  25. jerrodputman

    jerrodputman

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    Actually, both of those rules (3.3.1 and 3.3.2) were already there previously. For 3.3.1, the only new part seems to be:

    ...and that's only an example, which doesn't seem to be as bad.
     
  26. DaveyJJ

    DaveyJJ

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    Plus, doesn't Unity first get compiled down to monobytecode, then from there to Objective-C? So it should be OK, I imagine. I'm pretty sure this was a clear shot at Adobe.
     
  27. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    " intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool."

    I think means JIT, you can not use a translation BUT native code would be ok, does Unity compile to 100% native code?

    I dont like the tool part :(
     
  28. codinghero

    codinghero

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    So here's the screwy part about all this. The last couple times I submitted updates I got an email from Apple saying that my apps are using external API's and that it's prohibited. They also said that they were going to go ahead and accept them, but that I should look into not using external API's. This tells me that the rules apply to Unity, but that for whatever reason Apple is not enforcing it. If, however, they escalate their feud with Adobe and ban Flash apps under this clause, Adobe has legal recourse for discriminatory business practices. If that happens, that's when it becomes bad for Unity and us.

    EDIT: @DaveyJJ and @maxfax2009, read my post above. I have read that Mono gets converted to ObjC at build time, but like I said, if that's the case then why is the Mono runtime required in the final build? Also, if that's the case then why did Apple start banning Unity apps for external API's a few months ago? Yes, it's obviously a shot at Adobe, but if it turns legal we're sure to be affected.
     
  29. DaveyJJ

    DaveyJJ

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    We've installed it on two of our devices at work, but nothing with Unity yet.

    Cool thing? The OS update adds a Game Center app onto your device, and you can grab your game handle right now. Go, now!
     
  30. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    Actually it gets compiled to ARM assembly code. Objective-C is a language that also gets compiled; it's not something that you compile to.

    --Eric
     
  31. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    this also could mean that they could kill all ad networks but their iAd!
     
  32. codinghero

    codinghero

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    Indeed. The verbiage of those rules is purposefully vague.
     
  33. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    So you were using Unity iPhone 1.5 or earlier; that stuff was fixed in 1.5.1.

    --Eric
     
  34. posimaster.andrew

    posimaster.andrew

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    It would be pretty silly of apple to ban unity apps. there have been a lot really good featured applications that have been made by developers using unity. I don't know if Apple will want to burn that bridge especially with how much unity will be able to push the iPhone for 3D quality with the release of Unity 3. Since the verbage does say code originally written in Obj-c, c or c++ that would include unity seeing how it is compiled down into mono and converted into arm assembly. But we will see. Apple does make exceptions to the rules. And hey if they do ban us. we can still do web games, xbox, wii, etc with unity 3.
     
  35. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    I have to agree this is concerning. We're just getting started with iPhone/iPad development after using Unity for several years on the desktop side.

    What concerns me the most is that I can not see any difference whatsoever between what Unity is doing and what I presume Flash will be doing. They are both compiling iPad/iPhone executables through a layer and by definition both Unity and Flash would be tools.

    I really don't see how they can justly ban Flash and let Unity slide. Also, while I do understand that they want to stick it to Adobe (and I like that), the passages in the legal text seem to imply that basically any middleware is illegal?

    Regardless of how it pans out, there needs to be some clear communication regarding this, as uncertainty regarding the viability of Unity/iPhone development is not going to work. I can not think of one developer who would risk dev time only to be subject to enforcement practices that can change at any time.

    Unity Tech needs to get a statement from Apple.
     
  36. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @Eric, exactly, but did the 1.6 update change the architecture of the engine to not use the Mono run time or did it simply do a better job at hiding it from Apple? ;) Obviously it's still in there and the verbiage of 3.3.1,2 could be interpreted to apply to it.

    @posimaster.andrew, I'd like to see an actual statement from Unity saying whether or not Mono is actually being converted at compile time rather than interpreted. Unfortunately the forum is beyond slow right now so I'll have to do that search later...
     
  37. Paris_legacy

    Paris_legacy

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  38. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    I can't see why Apple would ban Unity, it would not be good business, Apple does not have a tool like Unity to help developers build iPhone apps.
     
  39. jerrodputman

    jerrodputman

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    Actually, 3.3.2 was always there, so Mono could never have been interpreted, hence why you can't use JIT features with Unity (as it's compiled ahead-of-time). The problem with apps being rejected in a previous version of Unity had to do with Unity actually using a private API. They fixed it, and all was well.

    With all of that said, I'd still like to get some official word on this...
     
  40. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    It may* be that they have to, if they enforce the rules to ban Flash apps. Compare the number of Unity iPhone games with the total number, it is not that significant. If they had to sacrifice Unity developers to hinder Adobe, I think they would in a heartbeat.

    Not a pessimist or naysayer really, but it may be that UT is caught in the crossfire between Apple and Adobe.

    *(May , as maybe Unity does convert to legal code before compile, I have no idea).
     
  41. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/iphone_agreement_bans_flash_compiler

    Flash on windows would not use Xcode but Unity would use Xcode.
     
  42. ryanzec

    ryanzec

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    I too would also like to get a response about this from someone at Unity just to be sure.
     
  43. Paris_legacy

    Paris_legacy

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  44. codinghero

    codinghero

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    @jerrodputman, I remember the controversy back in November, but I don't remember seeing UT state that "Yes Mono is converted to machine code at compile time. No we don't use the runtime." They may have, but I ran a couple searches and didn't find anything.

    At any rate, I'd like to be wrong on this point since I don't feel like having to port all my apps in a hurry. ;)
     
  45. HiggyB

    HiggyB

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    Thanks Paris, I appreciate the quick posting on my behalf.

    Guys, clearly this needs some digesting and we're discussing this internally to see if/how this impacts us, what the affect will be on you folks if any, etc. While I understand that folks want to know as soon as possible we need y'all to hang tight and let us sort things out. Besides, it just might change too, the terms have been known to shift between beta and final in the past.


    If anyone feels that they are in a particularly difficult spot with respect to this information then please feel free to get in touch with me directly and I'll see if/how I can help out. Understand that we're expecting to share information with the community at large as soon as it's available so I cannot guarantee you any early scoops, but as always I'm here as an ear for you to bend, a hitching post to tie onto through this mess, etc.


    Ok, back to reading the internal email on this I go, hang tight y'all!
     
  46. NitroPye

    NitroPye

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    Thanks for the update. :D
     
  47. maxfax2009

    maxfax2009

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    Yes thanks HiggyB
     
  48. reemonemo

    reemonemo

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    I was planning on getting Unity iPhone Basic this week. Is that a good idea now? I wonder what would happen if the worst case scenario happened.
     
  49. Anim

    Anim

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    tag for the morning

    nn all
     
  50. defmech

    defmech

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    It's probably going to be okay, but just hold out for a couple more days until something official is announced.