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Do you use Blender?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Grimwolf, Apr 16, 2014.

  1. techmage

    techmage

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    I think the Blender UI is actually better than the maya UI and 3DS max UI as a whole.

    And this Andrew Price guy seem to just propose to copy the new 3DS max tab UI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWacQrEcMHk
    Thats like the last thing I think should happen to a 3D app

    blender doesn't need a whole new UI framework. It just needs some better laying out of it's property menus.
     
  2. TheSniperFan

    TheSniperFan

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  3. Noisecrime

    Noisecrime

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    Photoshop has a bad UI? It may not be the best, you may not like the style, but in all my years I've never once had to google search how to find or use a feature in photoshop, never!

    In blender I'm googling every 10 minutes to find or use a feature and this is the problem. Unlike Photoshop where I can easily scan through the toolbox, menus, and panels to find something in seconds, in Blender you can do that and never find what you are looking for!

    This is not about learning quick-keys and short-cuts to become more proficient over time, you can do that in Photoshop too, its about not having to remember what strange shortcut key does what or where some feature is hidden away, its about being able to quickly and efficiently explore a UI to locate a function you know of (i.e. coming from knowledge of using other 3D modelling apps) and not require looking at the online manual, or some youtube tutorial.

    For example i've used several 3D apps over the years, Strata, 3DS Max, Bryce, and others, most of them I never had to google how to find a function or how to access something via a shortcut key until I wanted to get more proficient, yet for Blender that's what you have to do from the get go! It's a hideous awful UI design, badly implemented and does not reward exploration or discovery.


    I find it strange you don't like Andrew Price's concept, when I first saw the video I thought it was potentially a wonderful solution, everything looked so clean and organised. It instantly fulfilled the ability to explore and discover functions and features just like the Apps i've mentioned above. In an instant it would have solved the majority of Blenders issues to first time users without reducing proficiency for those who knew the shortcuts.

    By rejecting this those in charge of Blender have resigned it to continue its status as a proficient tool held back in popularity and attracting ( keeping) new users due to its unfriendly UI.


    Edit: Just to clarify my position on Blender.

    It has made vast improvements over the years to where around 2.5/2.6 I actually started to feel that I could use it to support my client and personal projects as an augmentation to the artist assets I was getting. I.e. if I was missing a model, I could knock up a dummy version in blender until the final version came through.

    Unfortunately whilst the UI improved its seemed that its become iterative based on an initially flawed concept and that without a wholesale change in direction and re-writing core parts of blender so that the UI is seperate it will never through evolution get much better.

    That is why I was so excited by Price's proposal, not for his exact specific idea's ( I would like to see more attention, alternative examples, careful planning so there is only one UI update and not many small confusing ones), but the general concept, the unified and simplified appearance, the overall style and presentation, the return to a explorable and discoverable interface etc.

    Sadly as its been shot down by Tom in a blog that is full of fallacies, strawmen and bizarre statements such as
    it looks like Blender will never get the UI it deserves and as I mentioned above will never reach through evolution or iteration. That is not to say I don't appreciate the complexity and effort involved in re-writing/structure the UI code, but that I feel its costs would be hugely outweighed by the gains.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  4. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Back in he 2.x days (when the UI was actually terrible), that was pretty much the developers response to UI stuff. People would post in their forums/bug tracker common UI bad practices, and their response was along the lines of "That's how we do it, and we know what we are doing". It took a couple of years of heat over the UI to finally get serious about it.

    Unfortunately, when they did they went the wrong direction at first. Every point release seemed to have moved things around and changed names or hotkeys. I would rather deal with poor ui, than a slightly better one that changes every couple of months.

    But they seem to be on the right track now, it is vast improvement over what it was a few years back.
     
  5. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    I use Blender because it's free and it does the job. (The UI is terrible though, just like most open source software, e.g. GIMP, open office). A case in point to "subdivide" you can either go to the edge menu, press "w" or click the subdivide button. All doing slightly different things!

    I make simple characters, rig them and animate them for import into Unity.

    But it doesn't really matter what you use, its all output as polygons anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  6. FlyingRobot

    FlyingRobot

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    UI is very important. But functionality too. For example Zbrush has a less intuitive UI than Mudbox, but does that make Mudbox more popular.

    But, thankfully, BF is not stubborn enough to stick to current UI. Blender's UI is improving. Works on UI is at full swing. Expect more development towards user friendliness.

    I couldn't stare at pre 2.5 UI. It was really frightening. 2.6 was a good move, not only UI but in core areas too. Still intimidating. But now, from 2.7 it's looking like bite size chunks for the first time. Definitely the right direction.

    I believe when Blender gets a more intuitive UI, the number of users will increase in many folds.
     
  7. Tiles

    Tiles

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    You post the wrong video here. This is the video where Andrew tried to play UI designer by himself, falling into the same pitfalls that he has moaned about. The proposal is not this bad. But you cannot change a UI this radical. And this kind of UI doesn't really fit into a 3D app. His first two videos remains valid though, where he lists all the flaws and quirks. Interestingly enough, i cannot find those two videos at the moment. Seems that the useful stuff sinks very quick, while the not so useful stuff always swims at the top ...
     
  8. Teo

    Teo

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    I prefer to google 10 minutes first time, then i am sure i will know how to do it again after that, and use the shortcut, and this for FREE, still beats any other offer.

    Guys, if you have talent to do things, you can do in any tool, if you don't have, there are no tools and menus in this world to help you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  9. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Yes, that's the biggest plus, it is free. But sometimes free can cost too much.

    And no, a UI does NOT mean to start Google every five minutes to find out how UI things are meant. That's the proof then that the UI has a big problem.

    And no, it's not talent that i talk about here. I talk about workflow and speed. Sure, i can paint the Mona Lisa in Windows Paint too. But it will go much faster in Photoshop, and even better in a pure paint software with the full pencil set and all needed features.. The pre 2.5 Blender Ui was really bad. That was pure Programmers art. The 2.5+ Ui is much better, and not this bad really. But contains simply too much quirks still.

    Here we go with the first two videos from Andrew. I don't agree with all points and conclusions. But when you listen carefully then you can learn lots of things for UI design.



     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  10. bhads44

    bhads44

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    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  11. BrainMelter

    BrainMelter

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    Do you have some examples of how Blender's UI is slowing down your workflow?
     
  12. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Sure :)

    Although the two videos by Andrew pretty much sums the problems up.

    But switch to Animation. Now expand the Graph editor window so that you can see the whole bottom menu. We want to see as much UI elements as possible so that we don't have to dig too much. Which will not really help because even by that you are unable to display all needed tools and panels on toplevel. You end in dragging, scrolling tabbing and searching instead of animating.

    Another slowdowner is the almighty question and answer game when you want to delete a selected element.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  13. MaxieQ

    MaxieQ

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    In the top right corner of every window, you have a little rectangle. Try to click and drag it away from a window border. Any direction will do. Up, down, sideways. Now, try and click and drag it into another adjacent window. :)

    You can arrange the windows however you want in Blender. You can merge windows, split windows. Whatever So, your animation window could be on top, and the timeline could be at the bottom. What you are actually complaining about is that your monitor is too small. ;)

    $tguu7eL.png
     
  14. BrainMelter

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    His problem arises because he wants to lay out the graph editor and the 3d view side-to-side. Even with a fairly large monitor, the menu bars will still get cut off. I just ended up laying them out top-to-bottom, so it's not really an issue.

    But the interface could be improved for people who still want side-to-side. Perhaps the menu bar could be made smaller, or it could wrap.
     
  15. christinanorwood

    christinanorwood

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    The little - icon next to the Window type button allows you to collapse the drop down menus. Probably easier than dragging the header.
     
  16. Tiles

    Tiles

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    MaxieQ and others, please try at least to understand why the UI is bad. It doesn't help to try to discuss the quirks away. They are still there then.

    I know Blender. I am a Blender user. That's why i know its weak spots so good. No need to explain me all the UI workaround tricks. I think i would even have some for you. But that's not the point.

    The point is: I have to drag stuff around, have to permanently open and to close the Properties and Tool Shelf bars to get enough space to work, have to scroll and to tab, and to dig in sub menus to ge things done. For regular work. There is never enough space left for the job. The UI has a space problem.

    One of the trouble makers is the bottom menu that prevents you from arranging the windows in the way you want them to be really. You have to drag them minimum as big that you can see the last button at the right side. Another trouble maker is the bad arrangement of the UI elements. And the biggest trouble maker are the text only buttons.

    To repeat myself, watch the two videos from Andrew Price. He sums the UI problems up. I just wanted to show a visible easy to understand example.


    Maybe you understand it better when you have something to compare to. This is trueSpace. First a warning. It is out of development since five years. It is beta and buggy. The bones system is even fubar. It is useless. So i cannot recommend trueSpace anymore. Nowadays you better keep your hands away.

    But the UI is super compact, a fine example of a good UI when it comes to using space effectively. Now compare this shot with the Blender shot. How much space to get things done is in Blender left? How much space is in trueSpace left?

    I have done the same than in the Blender layout. I have expanded it to show all needed tools to do the job. And here i can really show all needed tools at top level. While i have still lots of space left to do my job. While in Blender i still have to dig in sub menu, no matter how much i expand the panels.

    Every button that i need for work is accessible by one mouse click, at top level of the UI. I could do the whole job with touching just three tabs to switch between Fcurve, dope sheet and storyline. Plus the needed tools of course. I could even do all the other jobs in exact this layout. Not just animation. Here i can concentrate at work instead of moving the UI around or scroll me to death or dig in subtabs for a tool.

    And for the case that you dislike the icons, you can switch them to text only too. And in case you dislike the layout, it is very flexible. You could make every button to its own toolbar when you want. And place it where you want. And i can of course also use hotkeys. Hotkeys are no invention of Blender.

    This is the difference between a programmers art UI and a professional UI.

    I'm still very sad that Microsoft has abandoned trueSpace. It was at a reallly good track finally. But that's another story ...
     

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    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  17. Noisecrime

    Noisecrime

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    Why do you keep ignoring the problem, only replying with stupid strawman arguments about abilities (which have zero relevance to UI) and bring in unrelated stuff like cost?

    Based on your points above the best 3D program in the world is one that gives you $10 when you install it, has an invisible UI that requires you to google a sequence of obscure keyboard keys to access and only has tools from circca 1990 because anyone with ability can make that work. Can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?

    The whole point is that with a good UI you should never, ever have to google to find some common feature used in a program, it should be easily discoverable and usable within that program. For example opening a new window/view in Blender is pretty easy, but when you have to google to discover how to close that same window then something is very wrong.
     
  18. shaderop

    shaderop

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    trueSpace brings back so many fine memories. It was the first 3D app I have ever used back in the 3.x days. It had, as you say, a super compact layout and simple workflow.

    But that was then when it was a simple 3D app that was very limited in what it can do. And the UI reflected that simplicity.

    They picture you posted on the other hand is cluttered, not simple. And I'm guessing that, like in 3.x days, most of those buttons will reveal a menu of yet more buttons on a long click. I also don't look forward to having to memorize what all those icons mean. And if I were to switch them to text buttons instead of icons as you've suggested, then that's at least one third of my screen gone.

    I don't mean to dismiss your argument or trivialize your complaints, because they are legitimate complaints for the most part. Blender's way of doing things sometimes feels different just for the sake of being different. But trueSpace isn't a good model to follow IMO.
     
  19. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Huh?

    Left side up are the animation tools, it's the first toolbar. Right side are the tool settings. Below you find stuff like dope sheet, and in the center you find the workspace. It cannot be any simpler and cleaner. Once understood it it is pretty straigth forward. And i find it an excellent model to follow. Icons only may be a hurdle. But as told, turn the icons to text when you are really in trouble to recognize them.

    As for being limited, sure it is. It's five years out of development now. But easy doesn't mean limited. i still get my polygon modeling job better and faster done in trueSpace. And i model still in tS because some basic things can still not be done in Blender. Try to scale a selection to a numeric value for example. And i mean world units, not this per cent nonsense. Or try partial SDS

    But this thread is not a versus thread. We were at the point to explain where the Blender UI is weak and why :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  20. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    I think the Blender UI is pure genius. I watched most of Andrew's videos, and I was actually surprised at how many things he brought up that complete escaped my attention. One example in particular is the N/T,T/N bit. I use those all the time, (especially when I in single monitor mode). I never use them incorrectly, but I have never noticed they are flipped. There were a few others I was a little surprised I hadn't noticed as well. The inconsistencies are so prevalent, often in the same same panels, that I barely notice it anymore. (Which is saying something, as I am Sr UI/UX designer primarily). And that is the genius of Blender's UI, it just breaks your will and you accept it. I used to get so pissed at all the bad choices in the design, but over the years I have lost the energy to get worked up about. Blender has a mystifyingly bad UI design/direction, but despite the improvements it has made since, 2.x days, I simply don't expect it to ever really overcome it.

    It's like have a really close friend who has annoying habits or traits. Because they are your friend, you accept them despite those things. I hope it continues to improve, but honestly I am just as (if not more) annoyed by the constant changes. (partially because they are not always an improvement). Yes, features/functions/tools are awkward and not intuitive in Blender, but moving them around every year so isn't a solution, just another example of the problem.

    ---

    The open source movies, and various other group based projects that are done with Blender are really great. They always yield imrovments and feature that are move Blender forward. Maybe the should do a "Summer of Interface" or something along those lines. Where they build up a group and project whose primary goal is to formulate a long-term strategy/target/roadmap for the interface. Rather than all these constant small unfocused changes as needed, build a style guide or set of guidelines to help clean up and normalize the interface. Though, it probably isn't as interesting as make movies about weird animals. Still, it would be cool.
     
  21. Tiles

    Tiles

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    And we are back at talking the problems away ...

    The closed source movies done by the industry are even greater. They even manage to produce full time titles, and earn lots and lots of millions of dollars. Now guess why they use Maya, Max, Cine, etc. . And not Blender.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  22. FlyingRobot

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    The industry works in a client - vendor mode. Animation films are not made the indie way. The vendors have to maintain a software standard. You can't tell your client that you are using Blender, they will lower your pay. On the contrary, if you tell you have 5 seats of $8000 software, you can charge your client more. Good for business.

    Clients are megalomaniac.
     
  23. Dantus

    Dantus

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    The Blender UI could or even should be a lot better, that's out of question. Even the developers have that opinion and that's why they are actively working on it. As it is a really huge topic, they are working on the goals that can be achieved without reworking everything. And if you follow the discussion of the developers, they are making little, but productive progress.
    As there is no general consensus among the people in the UI team about the rules of the current UI, it makes a lot of sense to work like that at the moment, because lots of inconsistencies can be sorted out and something like a common basis for the Blender UI can be defined. This is a required step in my opinion before bigger changes should be made. It is a lot easier to find solutions for UI problems, if it is possible to try them out directly.
    Huge changes take long to implement and can have unwanted side effects that were not considered upfront and the discussions about details can be never ending. Having a common basis for the UI, will help in the long run to allow bigger changes on the UI as there is at least a common basis.

    I understand that many have strong opinions about UIs in general and that the Blender UI is a hot topic. But I don't understand why it needs to be discussed in every Blender thread.
     
  24. shaderop

    shaderop

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    The three-column-by-28-row grid of icons that all look like variations of spheres and boxes do strike me as very cluttered, yes. If it's the embodiment of usability to you then we have widely divergent interpretations of that topic.

    You're the one who brought up cutting edge tools like trueSpace :)


    I think you're missing the point. The OP meant that the open movie projects are great for Blender. He wasn't comparing them to commercially released productions.
     
  25. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Productive progress? I have seen this with the tabs, thanks. Now we have tabbing to death instead scrolling to death. With the benefit of wasting even more space and hard to read tab labels with vertical text. Not that a whole bunch of people has not moaned about that, and gots ignored. And with the benefit to introduce another inconsistency. Left we have tabs, right we still scroll ...

    To be fair, there is a benefit, but it is really small. And the time spent in this workaround would've been better spent to fix the cause, not to work around it.

    Stays as it is, Blender devs produces programmers art UI, not knowing what they are doing. I am already scared what comes next to make it even worse. I fear the only thing that could really help is a fork. Which will not happen.

    It simply triggers me when somebody tells about a good Blender UI. Because it simply is not good. Proveable :)
     
  26. Tiles

    Tiles

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    And having the same content which i can display in the upper left corner cluttered across two or three tabs and submenus with kilometers long text buttons grey in grey is any better? Geez. You haven't understood a single word, have you?

    Yes, we have definitely a divergent view at the topic. For me Blender is a tool.

    I brought it up because of UI issues, not of features.

    Besides that, I brought up a five years old BETA software that is still the better polygon modeler than Blender. I don't even bother to compare it with state of the art tools like Max, Maya or Modo. When i would have the money then i would've gone in an eyeblink. But i don't have the money. I have to live with Blender. And that's why i want to have the best possible Blender ever.

    To repeat myself, the first step to fix a problem is to accept that there is a problem.

    We've been nearly at the point where the crowd was this loud that a change at the UI seemed possible. And again it was not loud enough. Again everything else is more important than the UI now. Goooseberry everywhere. The UI team is back to work, yes. After two years of stagnation. So it's not completely lost. But it is a closed UI team. Feedback forbidden. And it manages just "low hanging fruits" now. Stuff like this tabs. Stuff that dosesn't make it worse in best case.

    Fair point.

    But still, Blender gets permanently compared to the big boys. And again and again i hear the song of the oh so powerful Blender, even better than Max, Maya, etc. . And then you have to live with this comparison too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  27. msl_manni

    msl_manni

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    When one starts to learn a software, they use its menu system and UI. When they feel comfortable with the software, they might learn its shortcuts. Blenders UI is totally rubbish and I dont have time and energy to learn its shortcuts.

    So the software companies who impose their UI on its clients, will surely loose their interest. It applies to every kind of software. At the end, the user is going to use your software and its his choice, as to what he does and wants to do with your software.

    If Blender is not listening to its users, then there wont be many who would use it.
     
  28. shaderop

    shaderop

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    That was uncalled for.

    That sounds more like scattered than cluttered (link to definition). It's nowhere near as scattered as you make it out to be and at least it attempts to be contextual instead of throwing it all into a grid a la trueSpace. I'm guessing you're quite a fan of 3D Max's design philosophy of "throw it into the modifier stack."

    Really? Because you said this just one post ago:
    Sounds to me like an unhealthy obsession with something that is supposedly just a tool, with a bit of dogma mixed in for good measure.

    Have you used any of these tools before? Do you actually have something to compare Blender against aside from trueSpace? I'm truly curious to know where you're coming from.

    I agree. It's the scale of the issue that we seem to disagree on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  29. Grimwolf

    Grimwolf

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    While there are some valid complaints to be had with Blender's UI, I'm getting the impression that you would never be happy with it regardless of what was done, and that arguing with you on it is pointless. In fact, I'm not sure what you're trying to even do by arguing with everyone on how bad you feel the UI is, even when they agree that its bad.
    It sounds like you want everything on screen at once with no tabbing or scrolling or dropdown menus, but then you'd just complain that the screen is too cluttered.

    If you have such a huge issue with Blender, I'm curious why you even use it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  30. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    If you read the whole post you will see I was being facetious. I was jokingly suggesting the genius was that they made it so S***ty that people have grown to just accept it sucks and they don't have put any effort into it.


    Of course they are. I meant to say great for Blender and the Blender community, not for the actual product the produce. But the idea is great, having a focused project that drives/benefits development in a specific way.

    I mean no offense to anyone who worked on those projects, but frankly, they are kind of terrible. Sure they are rendered well and have some good visuals (Durian), but the stories and designs are not good. They really need to stop with the "cute" animal ones, or at least switch art directors.
     
  31. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Sorry, didn't see that. Haven't seen the irony. I have talked to people that said exactly the same, and were very, very serious about it, not ironic. Just look around how things starts to escalate again ;)

    Like defeating Blender with all good and bad tricks? Like telling, hey you are obsessed? Like pissing others at their leg and getting personal? Not my problem :)

    And i really hope we get away here without that attitudes.

    Yes i have. But that's not the point. Besides the fact that two are always enough for a comparison.

    The shot was an example, so that you can directly compare where the Blender UI suffers. Not the invitation to start a faith war what app is better. Followed by app and user bashing to let Blender shine again. It could also have been Silo, Modo, Maya. But i was too lazy to install the demo. trueSpace was installed already. And it's still my favourite when it comes to a clean, fast and user friendly UI. I've never ever worked any faster than in tS.

    It's not about the software. It's about the UI concept and the UI layout. It's about usability and mouse paths. We talk about UI design here. And Blender has a bad UI design with long mouseways, lots of submenus, massive scrolling and inconsistent menu elements. It is Programmers art. Wich could be massively improved by some easy steps like icons instead text buttons here and there. Blender uses already icons only buttons by the way. And nobody moans.

    The funny thing is, you want the user to remember 300+ hotkeys, and/or alternatively all positions of the buttons in the menus and submenus. Positions that even changes because of scrolling and tabbing and different layouts. But a handful trueSpace icons in customizable toolbars that stays at their place and have even tooltips to explain what is what is "too cluttered" . Rly? ;)

    When you don't like the icons in trueSpace, then replace them by text. The UI concept is still the same, and is still super fast and convenient. And when that's not enough, i would be open to any improvement. Like placing titles on top of the toolbar so that it's clear that the first toolbar up left is for animation tools, and the second and third group are the point edit and selection tools, separated into two toolbars to avoid cluttering. You could separate it even further.

    But i guess even then you would still find a way to moan how bad the concept is. Because it shows how weak the Blender UI is. And this is of course not tolerated ...

    Seems that you have misunderstood some things there. I have exactly that in trueSpace. And i don't complain about trueSpace.

    Money my friend. Money.

    Blender gets the job done. But it gets it done a bit more cumbersome than really necessary. That i got used to the quirky UI meanwhile doesn't mean that i wouldn't wish there would be a better UI.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  32. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    It is completely fair to compare them. They are designed to be exactly in the same product category. They have probably 99% of the same core functionality. In fact, blender is trying to be bit broader tool the game engine. And Blender is a very powerful tool with a broad toolset. It is also robust and well maintained, and constantly growing/improving. It is kind of the gold standard for OSS alternatives. The fact that it is compared to the big tools says a lot. It really can't accurately be called more powerful than Maya, and "better" is relative/subjective. Certainly in terms of productivity, the differences become stronger.

    Yes it has a poor and non standard UI. But I am not sure what you are arguing, as everyone (including the devs) know and agree on this.

    I get it when, for example, Unity users, even free ones, get upset, complain, get demanding and bitchy. I may not agree with them or their expectations, but I can understand where they are coming from. They have limited options if there is something the don't like, they have little control/access and changing engines isn't trivial. Blender is OOS, you can literally download the source and change it. Or get involved and help improve it, or change tools. People aren't bound to it, It is free, and being a tool for asset creation, you can easily switch to another tool whenever you want, with minimal impact.

    So if the UI is a significant blocker, or lack of features or workflow or whatever, then just don't use it. Or help improve it by getting involved. Complaining, arguing and getting all upset about any other place than the Blender forums/developer channels is really serves no purpose. There really isn't much of an argument, the limitations and shortcomings are well known. It is interesting to discuss in terms of software UI and features, but what point do you hope to prove?
     
  33. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Um. Not everybody. That's why i entered the discussion at all. That's how this started. Teo said the UI is just someting estethically. And so i started to disprove it, and showed where the UI suffers in an objective way. That's all. And i think my point should be clear now.
     
  34. Dantus

    Dantus

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    They have a productive process to discuss issues, propose ideas and then discuss the pros and cons. They also consider use cases and edge cases.
    There are many people who spend a significant amount of time to contribute. That's clearly a productive process. There are not only programmers, but also artists involved in the discussions. In my opinion, they are clearly heading in the right direction.
     
  35. shaderop

    shaderop

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    You might want to clarify that because I believe most English language speakers will classify it as gibberish.

    Yes, you got that right. When I said you that you might have an unhealthy obsession I actually meant that you might be obsessed, since by definition someone with an obsession is obsessed. Nothing slips by you, does it :)

    You're the only one complaining of having piss on their legs. Seems like you take disagreement with your opinion very personally. I might even add that you seem to have a problem with it :)

    Now that, my wet-legged friend, is irony.

    The screenshot was an example, yes. I was making the argument that it was a bad example. I still maintain that it the tool panel is cluttered, I still maintain that the icons all look too similar to each other, and I still maintain that I prefer the tools available to me to be context dependent. Something that Blender at least tries to do. Whether it succeeds or not is a different argument.

    Yes, and kilometer-long menus as you've mentioned before. You're not overstating your case with hyperbole at all.

    You seem to have resolved your opinion that icons and more icons are the solution to all of Blender's woes. Unfortunately the example your presented show that that is absolutely not that case.

    Actually they are 172 shortcuts in total, including duplicate keys that act similarly across window types. Count them yourself if you wish. I can count the icons in that trueSpace screenshot you've posted at around 84 or so, and that's not including the icons that expand to reveal yet more icons. If 84 is a "handful" in your book then 172 is definitely in the same ballpark in mine. And I never personally demanded that you submit my well and learn 172 real shortcuts plus 128+ imaginary ones. All I said that a clusterf**k of icons that all look the same is not what I would present as the pinnacle of usability.

    As I said before, then those tight, compact, beautiful icons that you love so much will take up a good third of my screen.

    No, not really. It shows how cluttered and arcane trueSpace's UI is.

    No. Teo was specifically commenting on Maya's marking menus being an embellishment rather than a useful feature. I disagree with him of course since those who use Maya value the marking menu feature a lot. But he wasn't commenting on the whole UI, and he definitely wasn't dismissing the whole UI as just matter of cheap aesthetics.

    And as far as you showing the issues in the UI in am "objective way," what you did was repeat the 300+ shortcut falsehood a couple of times, linked to Andrew's videos which he himself recanted later on, confused game UI which needs to be understood and used by a consumer in seconds with an application UI that must include a learning curve in order for it to do anything useful, and presented a rather cluttered and outdated app as the pinnacle of usability. Not what I would call objective by any measure.

    As Grimwolf already stated, you seem rather intent on dismissing Blender as dead on arrival and quick to classify any opinion to the contrary as an attempt by the oppressive minority to silence the voice of you, the people. It's rather an unusual stance for a self-proclaimed Blender user. It's understandable for you to criticize it, but you're almost outright advocating against it.

    Just in case you missed it the first time, I'll repeat it again here:

     
  36. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Dantus, the UI team is closed. No feedback wanted.

    I know what you mean with discussion, i know the miles long UI thread at Blender Artists too. And i follow also more than one mailing list. But this kind of discussion does not arrive at the UI programmers anymore at the moment, unfortunately. The new introduced tabs and their well known flaws was a very good example here. I still hope that they pick up at least a few suggestions for future UI changings.
     
  37. Tiles

    Tiles

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    You just can't argue with some people. It will always end in a pissing war.
     
  38. Grimwolf

    Grimwolf

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    You made it into one.
    Deliberately.
    You even just now insulted someone for having a different opinion than you. This isn't getting anyone anywhere, and you're pushing the entire thread out of control.
     
  39. jRocket

    jRocket

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    I know that software users tend to defend their choice of software, probably because they know it so well, but let me do the opposite. I am a long time 3ds max user, with 10+ years of experience with that software. I do love it, but given the recent lack of development effort in 3ds max on Autodesk's part, and the rapid advancement competitors like Blender, I may consider switching as some point in the future. Given what Autodesk has done with Softimage, I really feel like 3ds max could be next. The last max update was a joke.
     
  40. BrainMelter

    BrainMelter

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    Max's UI is in a really clunky state right now. They added this whole ribbon bar to the UI, which is largely redundant with the functionality in the command panel. They need to do a unification pass to make it more usable.
     
  41. Dantus

    Dantus

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    This is not true, everyone can comment and you may contact carter2422 if you want to create a new task. The only requirement is that the feedback is objective and productive.
    https://developer.blender.org/maniphest/project/12/

    I was not talking about the Blender Artists discussions, I meant the discussions from developer.blender.org.
     
  42. jRocket

    jRocket

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    Oh yeah I know. Whose idea was that? It makes no sense at all. To make matters worse, there is some functionality in the ribbon UI that can't be found in the command panel and vice versa. Basically Autodesk purchased the rights to a popular modeling plugin years ago and shoved it into their ribbon UI. Thankfully that can be turned off. I really hope that the blender team takes the criticism of the UI to heart and not only changes it, but makes something amazing out of it.
    I think that right now Modo probably has the best user interface, as least in terms of customization. In Modo, everything is modular and can be customized extensively. Now if only they would implement some kind of non-destructive modeling workflow...
     
  43. goat

    goat

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    3DS MAX, Maya, and such released the '2015' versions recently (yes I know we aren't even 1/2 through 2014 yet) and they are now compiled with Visual Studio 2012 but since I don't use them I can't speak further whether or not anything substantially helpful has been done with these updates other than making subscribers think they are getting their money's worth compared to the old upgrade every X years model.
     
  44. KheltonHeadley

    KheltonHeadley

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    The entire "Blender's UI is a hunk of crap" is totally subjective. I personally find Blender the best. 5 years ago I was modelling in Maya. When Blender 2.5 came out with the new UI, I moved and never looked back. I still have Maya installed, and use it from time to time. But 90% of my modelling work is done in Blender. I never run into any of the problems Andrew Price nor anyone else here mentioned. Blender has been flawless for me since day one.
     
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  45. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    I think Blender will be dogged with a rep for bad UI for a very long time, mostly because many people who don't use it probably haven't looked at it in years. I still hear people bitch about Macs because you can't right click.

    Like I said in my first post, my studio uses Maya, and I certainly know the animation/rigging isn't as efficient to work with in Blender. But I am with you, I prefer to model in Blender. Occasionally, I will need to make small geometric meshes for FX and stuff, not full characters or things but a few polys. Usually I can do those in Blender before Maya has fully launched. And it really is a robust app, the only time I can remember it ever crashing was playing with fluid simulations. It it just rock solid.
     
  46. gregorsamsa

    gregorsamsa

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    I just had a déjà vu. Tiles, you are totally obsessed when it comes to the Blender UI. :) And it still is funny after all those years that after a few posts you always mention trueSpace as the paragon of good UI design. :)
     
  47. create3dgames

    create3dgames

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    I have used many 3d programs, such as Maya, 3ds Max, Sketchup, Lightwave, Wings 3D, etc. and Blender. Of these, Blender and Maya are the best, and for now I prefer Blender mainly because of it's price tag, it is free. However there are also other reasons I use Blender, it has an awesome community and more training and tutorials than any other 3d software on the planet. But I am keeping my eye on Maya LT.
     
  48. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Your fraction asked for an example. And then it slapped me for giving the example. What reaction did you expect? :)

    There is a difference between a heated word and a frontal attack though. Anyways. Sorry for the heated words. Sometimes i get carried away.

    Yes, you can make suggestions. But not directly talk to the UI team, it is closed. And the suggestions doesn't make it really through anymore. There is a big list of items from the pre 2.5 time that gets sucessfully ignored since years. And this new suggestion list here is nothing else in my opinion. This is to keep the souls busy and out of the way. The newest example was the nearly unreadable vertical text at the new tabs. There was a big moan about it. And it got ignored. The people makes suggestions, the programmers develops their own ideas instead.

    This isn't even bad really. Best is when one has the last word. Too much people ruins the work. I just wish they would have a better clue about UI design and usability. And sometimes listen to feedback is a good thing. The problem here may be the pure masses of feedback, and everybody pulls into another direction, thinks that his suggestions are best ...

    Ah, thanks. I did miss that one. Seems that i'm at the wrong mailing list.

    You did register for just this comment, did you? :)

    Well, it still is a fine UI, and one of the best i have ever worked with (not that it couldn't be improved). While the Blender UI still is cumbersome and slow to use. This stays my opinion after years of experience.

    You could call me obsessed when i would start threads with this topic to spread the word. Wich i never did and would never do. Sometimes i answer to existing threads like this one when somebody says something, let's say which i think is wrong. And that's what a forum is made for. There is not just one opinion allowed.

    It's definitely better than to register just to slap somebody. While he has nothing to say to the topic.

    Folks, it is measurable.

    When i have 70% working space left in one app, and when i have 5% left in another app, and this for the same job, then the one with the 5% working space has a UI problem. You don't have to be Einstein to see that. But we've been at this point already.
     
  49. gregorsamsa

    gregorsamsa

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    No, I didn't register just for this comment. ;) I just found it funny to see you here. You seemingly jump at every thread that mentions blender in some positive way.

    I like Blender (even with its flaws) and so I wanted to mention Project Gooseberry on the Unity forums. That's why I registered.
     
  50. KheltonHeadley

    KheltonHeadley

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    There are many toolbars in Blender you can close and re-open. I've made massive projects in Blender and never had a small viewport like you said, you're simply going off what Andrew Price said. If you've seen his work, he does some insane stuff, I doubt you've ever experienced that. You have to speak from experience if you want to prove something, not from what one person said.
     
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