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Do you use Blender?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Grimwolf, Apr 16, 2014.

  1. shaderop

    shaderop

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    Seems like my reply was too hard for you to understand. I can try to use simpler language if you would point specific sentences that were too difficult for you.

    You really should cool it with the urine-based imagery. It's getting kind of creepy :)

    It was your example that was criticized for being not a particularly a good one, not you. And it wasn't just a fraction that disagreed with you. It was almost everyone participating in this thread. Or did you mean "faction"? In that case I would love to know which faction you're playing for, since it obviously isn't Blender.

    A reasonable and reasoned one free of personal attacks and hyperbole.

    If you say so. Apology accepted. I hope you learned something from it :)

    I totally agree. Now you should really take that to heart regarding your own opinion. Unless you have reason to believe that you are above the masses.

    No. His post here was his second one on the forum. And it has no bearing on the quality of his reply.

    I don't think the word "measurable" means what you think it does. Let me help you out a little: Measure the total window size in pixels, then measure the active viewport area also in pixels. Divide the latter by the former and multiple by 100. That's the actual working space.

    Using the above, the power of math, and the picture of trueSpace you posted earlier, the actual active viewport as a percentage of the total window size is 56%, not your measurable 70%.

    Applying the same to the equivalent display in Blender, with both T and N panels open, the actual active viewport as a percentage of the total window size is 43%, not your measurable 5%.
     
  2. TheSniperFan

    TheSniperFan

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    ^This, plus it depends on other factors such as your layout (Blender is configurable in this regard) and your screen resolution.
    If you were to use WQHD instead of FHD resolution, you'd have even more space. The toolbars would take even less space in relation to the viewport.
     
  3. Dantus

    Dantus

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    The UI team is actively discussing at developer.blender.org, so why shouldn't it be possible to directly talk to the UI team?

    It makes sense in my opinion that they tackle currently relevant topics first and not the old ones that may not be valid anymore due to the heavily modified UI.

    There are always people who complain and it makes a lot of sense that programmers develop their ideas at the end because they know a lot better how things work internally and which cases need to be considered that may not be directly visible for anyone.

    Again, the feedback at developer.blender.org has a very high quality and it helps them to get a better clue about UI design and usability.
     
  4. KheltonHeadley

    KheltonHeadley

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    I guess you could say Unity's UI needs work. $8ikwG.png
     
  5. shaderop

    shaderop

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    There was a recent thread right here on these forum where the poster asked how to create an edge between vertices (link). I know next to nothing about Maya outside of the animation tools, but I still thought that this question was a prime candidate for Let Me Google That For You.

    I was wrong.

    Someone did post an answer eventually, but it isn't what I would call intuitive or obvious.

    I vaguely remember reading someone describing C++ as a language that makes common tasks hard, and difficult task possible. I kind of feel the same about Maya (and even XSI) at this point. I think the most common task are actually easier to do in Blender if one was to get over the initial UI shock. The problem is that initial shock will still be too much to bear for a lot people.
     
  6. BrainMelter

    BrainMelter

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    I haven't used a lot of Maya, but that's the impression I get from it. It's built around this powerful node-based architecture, which is probably quite useful for structuring larger projects. But if you just want to sit down and kick out a few low-poly models, it's total overkill.
     
  7. goat

    goat

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    Eww, I'm about to try a trail of Maya LT and do some tutorials to see it I want to subscribe or continue learning Blender (simple ctl-e after you've selected the vertices in that case).
     
  8. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Nice try :)

    I had to expand the Blender areas in the screen shot to see all tools. Especially the ones in the bottom menus of the windows. While you expand the Unity layout for no reason here. I don't have to expand Unity as shown in your shot to have all tools in sight.

    By the way, Unity follows the same UI design patterns than trueSpace. Central places to modify the settings (Properties bar) and to call tools (top menu). And we have a browser area in Unity too, while we have the button toolbars in trueSpace. Makes three areas to look at. Fixed areas that stays where they are. Each for its own purpose. Good for muscle memory. I want to activate a tool? I know exactly where to look ...

    In Blender i have to modify Settings in:

    - Properties panel left of workspace
    - Tool Shelf panel right of the workspace
    - Top menu
    - Bottom menu at every open window, which is dependand of how much windows you have opened. For animation we have four for example.
    - Properties window
    - Hidden menus that are just accessible by hotkeys, and doesn't have a menu entry. Shift + tab for example: say hello to a second menu for switching between point, edge and face edit mode where you can finally set a hotkey for that.

    Plus in Blender i have to activate Tools in:

    - Properties panel left of workspace
    - Tool Shelf panel right of the workspace
    - Top menu
    - Bottom menu at every open window, which is dependand of how much windows you have opened. For animation we have four for example.
    - Properties window
    - Hidden menus that are just accessible by hotkeys, and doesn't have a menu entry. Shift + tab for example: say hello to a second menu for switching between point, edge and face edit mode, and where you can finally set a hotkey for that.

    This is highly decentralized. You can also call it cluttered.

    The things that you need could be everywhere in the UI. And in fact it is. Lots of special cases to remember, lots of areas to keep open, lots of places to search for something you need. And i dance forward and backward between all those locations while i work. No wonder the UI has a space problem. And the stuff even changes position because of scrolling and tabbing and pulling the windows around because of the space problem. Bad for muscle memory.

    I have to repeat myself, the space problem is just one of many problems that the Blender UI has. It's just the most significant one for me because it slows me down. Watch the videos by Andrew Price. There you can see much more. Stuff like RMB select for example. Or all those inconsistencies where the UI solution is different for similar tasks. And so on.

    I stand corrected.

    Agreed. But how comes that there are so many old ones? How comes that there are so many new ones too, the ones that are valid for 2.5x + ?

    Every developer knows that. I'm with you here. It's just, the Blender developers already showed that they are not really good at making UI. And still they continue with business as usual.

    You mean very high quality stuff like the vertical hard to read text at the tabs? :)

    That's what i mean with business as usual. There are no consequences from the mini revolution that was started by Andrew. There is a small UI task force now that does some cosmetic operations. Andrew was made quiet, he is now officially part of the UI team. And that was basically it for the next two or three years.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  9. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    I feel exactly the same way.

    I will concede though, that it may just because I learned on Blender. Maya users I know feel the same about Blender. (they are usually instantly stumped at the right click to select).
     
  10. goat

    goat

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    I tried to figure out how to tile a texture on a landscape I imported from Unity after export as an obj (Terrain Toolkit 1.0.2) and couldn't find out how although I found what I thought were directions they were completely wrong.

    As far as handling the UI in Blender since I'm not even a 3D modeler or much of a 'real' artist at all (I don't bitch enough about suffering to be a real artist I suppose) this is how I handle it by using a png of the Blender shortcuts as my background.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  11. Tiles

    Tiles

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    You know that you can use hotkeys in other apps too? :)

    And for the settings you still need the graphical UI.
     
  12. nipoco

    nipoco

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    It is the same for me. Once you get used to Blender, it is incredible efficient to use.
    Maya on the other hand is still clunky and awkward for poly-modeling. Way too much clicks and boxes to use. Even with the added NEX and all the other "handy" third-party tools. The edge example in that thread is a prime example how complicated Maya handle certain things.
     
  13. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Proof please :)
     
  14. nipoco

    nipoco

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    I don't think I need to prove you anything.
    In this thread alone, you've showed numerous times, that you're completely stubborn. Even when people refuted your claims. Best example are shaderop's post's, which you're now completely ignore, although (or because) he is right.

    3D is your hobby, right?
    Usually you have hobbies for enjoyment. If this is not the case, because Blender is such a pain in your eyes, then simply don't use it. Or get a job and save for any commercial 3d suite you want.

    Furthermore I really wonder if you ever donated money towards Blender's development, or added anything productive, rather than just bitching about the efforts of Blender's developers all day long.
     
  15. Tiles

    Tiles

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    I did ask for a proof, not a personal attack ;)

    Let me help you with the proof:

    trueSpace way to delete an object:

    Select Object
    press del

    Blender way to delete an object:

    - Select Object
    - press del
    - confirm that you want to delete the object by enter

    truespace way to delete two connected edges in a mesh:

    - Select edges
    - press del

    Blender way to delete two connected edges in a mesh:

    - Select edges
    - press del
    - have a look at the upcoming dialogue. start to guess what method you need to delete. Let's say i choose dissolve today.
    - move the mouse over dissolve edge and click
    - switch to point edit
    - select remaining vertice
    - press del
    - have a look at the upcoming dialogue, start to guess what method i need this time. Let's say it's delete vertice this time
    - move the mouse over delete vertice and click

    This doesn't sound like "incredible efficient", does it? :)

    The best thing at a forum is that you don't need to answer to every reply. He made clear that he is just interested in a pissing war. Any further conversation would just lead to even more heated words. We had enough already. He has his opinion, i have mine. Who am i to teach him UI design when he doesn't want to learn it? I made my point clear. And that's it.

    Oh, but i enjoy the conversation with people like you very much. And i even enjoy Blender. That's the funny part. It's incredible powerful for an open source project. It's just that it's miles away from being perfect.

    I also never said that Blender is a pain. I said the UI is bad. It could be much better in nearly every aspect.

    And i don't think that especially you are the person to tell me what sofware i have to use. That's my decision.

    I am both, a critic and a helper. And in the first place i am a user.

    I filed numerous bug reports, and gave numerous answers to help newbies and other users over the years.I have even developed two very small plugins.I didn't spend money so far though. It's freeware, isn't it?

    And what did you do? Rather than bitching everybody who says anything bad against Blender? :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  16. RavenFactory

    RavenFactory

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    Sorry i think you are wrong

    Blender way to delete two connected edges in a mesh:

    -Select edges
    -Press Del
    -In menu select Edges

    Dissolve is a diferent thing, iguess you already know that.
    Anyway, to dissolve the vertices by dissolving an edge, no need to select them
    Option a) Press F6 and select dissolve verts
    Option b) In the tool pane select dissolve verts
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  17. goat

    goat

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    I've bought nipoco's assets in the asset store and what I thought is these are nice so ultimately the customer can't tell and only cares that the quality is good.

    As far as UIs go I come from a UNIX development and system administration background and often have helped Windows developers and system administers when the 'UI' isn't helpful because they are often stuck if the Windows UI world is their first and only environment. I would think someone that learns Blender compared to Maya (Maya LT) is in a similar situation - they know how to do a lot of simple things repetitively to build a complex nice thing while the high level UI modelers do things like, make humanoid, tweak humanoid, done. One is not smarter than the other it's different ways of thinking about the same task although doing things at a higher level make it more difficult to create unique work but hey, we're all using Unity too here aren't we?

    I have to admit I like the look of the Maya LT UI I wish Blender would go that direction but keeping the shortcuts. I'd also like to see Blender add in the new Maya LT features and integrate into Unity too. They're likely to earn a bigger user base and more donations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  18. shaderop

    shaderop

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    I think you're continuing to prove that you're the only one here who is overly and worryingly interested in pee. It apparently goes way back a couple of years at least:

    Apparently your leg hasn't dried since then :)

    That's an excellent question, and one that I offer back to you. Who are you indeed to teach anyone about UI design? Some credentials would be nice, considering that you definitely can't measure (see 70% vs 5% above), you surely can't count (see 300+ shortcuts claim above), and, if the example below is any indication, you apparently don't know much about using Blender. So it seems like you're missing some rather elementary skills that would be necessary for a UI design authority like the one you purport to be.

    And I'm being very charitable in my assumptions here, because if I were to assume that you can count and can measure and can use Blender, then that is to assume that you were purposefully lying.

    No, not at all efficient. But that's because you're doing it wrong, as RavenFactory has already pointed out:
    I'm sure you weren't trying to fabricate claims on purpose just to support your agenda.

    Proof please :)

    Because, as you've demonstrated in your fine delete edge example, you're rather incompetent at using the very same software that you critique, help, and supposedly use.
     
  19. KheltonHeadley

    KheltonHeadley

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    I don't understand you logic at all Tiles, Blender is totally efficient, what is one or two keystrokes going to change? A fraction of a second? Also, the back to the whole UI thing, I doubt even 10% of people have had the same UI problem that you're claiming people have, when I work I have my viewport large, if I need to change to the UV editor, or Node editor, I simply split my screen in half, and use 2/3 or whatever amount I need. Here is generally how my Blender looks, $8kKW7.png
    http://puu.sh/8kKW7.png

    and other times it'll look something like this, $8kLd0.png
    http://puu.sh/8kLd0.png

    I've never once, experienced this $8kLjz.png
    http://puu.sh/8kLjz.png

    and to be honest, I don't think it's quite possible. If you need more space, close off the things you don't need. The UI is totally good, and works well as a UI. It make look intimidating, or dysfunctional but in truth is a very well working UI.
     
  20. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Really dude. I didn't ask you for a proof.
    The only thing you've proved is, that you apparently have no real clue about Blender, which you've demonstrated in the following quote..

    Wow...Seriously?? Now I really have to wonder, if you actually use Blender?
    Because that is -and allow me to be blunt here- utter bullshit. I have no idea how you come up with that.

    Your trueSpace example was already hilarious. But that here... Sorry, but I can't take you serious anymore.

    Maybe you should sit down and give Blender a real try, before you compromise yourself even further here..

    No it's open source which is a huge difference...

    Thanks goat. I appreciate that. Of course it doesn't make much of a difference whether you use Maya, or Blender, or whatever. All those 3d suites are capable. Eventually it comes down to the artist, who creates the art.
    If you like Maya LT you can give it a shot. I use it occasionally, but eventually I enjoy modeling in Blender way more. Maya LT's biggest strength over Blender is the up-to-date and solid FBX pipeline IMO.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  21. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Well yes, his workflow with switching to vertices mode, selecting each vertex and then delete them is inefficient, because of him and not Blender. The relevant vertices are also already selected if you switch to vertices mode after the edges were dissolved.

    Besides of your methods, you can also simply select your edges, hit X and choose "limited dissolve" and it will take care of the edges and the associated vertices in one step.


    $Edge Dissolve.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  22. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Heh, gotcha. I did choose the longest possible workflow for good reason ;)

    My workflow is ONE POSSIBLE solution. And it is a VALID solution. And when you say that this is not valid then you have really no clue about Blender. Even reselecting already selected elements happens to me regularly. But yeah, that part could be me.

    Blender has many solutions here. You could also choose delete edgeloop for example (without pressing x), even when this one introduces new unwanted edges then for not closed edgeloops (an example for not being N-gon ready tools). Having so much ways to do the job is again everything but efficient. I don't want to play quiz all the time and guess what method suits best. I want to delete my edges. Including the corresponding vertices. And one method is more than enough for that. Here we are at usability again.

    But even with the fastest possible way, you still need two steps more in Blender.

    - select element
    - press del
    - choose method to delete
    - aim and click

    vs

    - select element
    - press del

    I guess you can count to four, can you? :)

    Even with pressing X you still need to click. Makes three steps. Select element, press X, click. But who knows the X trick really? That's hidden functionality where you never will stumble across when you don't get told about it. Another UI flaw. The very most users will press del and play the quiz.

    This question and answer game at delete costs time. This could be solved in a better way. And this is just one example where Blender is slow and cumbersome to use. Blender does the job, but it is not really efficient. That's the price of open source, where the features are always a bit behind compared to the industry tools, and the UI is not so user friendly by design.

    At least you did proof that we talk about the same Blender here. I really doubted that one already with all your cheering and nonsense statements.

    It is freeware. The open source thingie has nothing to do with it.

    .

    This my friend is the problem in the Blender UI that i try to point out since several pages. I am permanently at closing things and reopening them. That's what i talk about.

    It is indeed not possible in Blender to work in the same layout. You have to change it permanently. You have to drag windows around, and to close and to open panels all the time.

    But in tS it is very well possible to work in the same layout, without the permanent need to close and to reopen panels and to drag windows around. Thus my example.

    No, it is not "totally good" . And it's something that a well known Blender supporter says, not only me. Even the Blender devs agrees here. It's just a few hardcorers who don't want to accept that. That it could be worse is the best thing that you can say about the current UI. The 2.49 UI was definitely much worse. But that's still miles away from very well working and good, let alone perfect.

    Just in case, the two videos from Andrew Price again ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xYiiD-p2q80

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yIedljapuz0

    One question remains, and makes me scratch my head since i entered this thread here. When you folks are so blind against UI flaws, how the heck do you develop your games then? Placing the HUD in the middle of the screen so that the user doesn't overlook it? Oh, it works, good enough. Let's call it great!!!1!11

    For me it's habit to have a look at the software that i use or the game that i play, have a look how things are done, and then think of how they could be made better. That's part of being a developer. Permanent analysis, and trying to become better.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  23. KheltonHeadley

    KheltonHeadley

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    Tiles, you can press Enter instead of clicking with your mouse you know. Stop now, you clearly know nothing and haven't tried Blender for longer than 5 minutes. Also stop posting anything related to Andrew Price because thats his personal opinion, it doesn't make it fact and isn't going to change anything. You're just getting annoying now, nobody called the Blender UI perfect, you're stuck on this notion that unless the UI is perfect it sucks. No UI is perfect, and never will be, there will always be people like dislike it. And again, you don't need to click when a selection menu shows up, you're clearly talking out of your ass here.

    $8liYB.png

    Just hit enter and it's gone. You obviously don't know enough about Blender to criticize it and tell us how to improve our workflow when you're the one who's wrong.
     
    Deleted User likes this.
  24. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Seriously?

    You are really dropping in credibility with every post, if you are constantly opening, closing and dragging windows/panels around, you are doing it wrong. I haven't touched my window layouts in probably over a year. Define your layouts and move between them. Pretty basic stuff.

    Game UI/UX != Application/Software UI.

    But, how you make any competent analysis when you clearly don't even understand the basics of the application?

    ---

    Yea, we get it. You hate blender. It kicked your puppy or said mean things about your mom. Fine. But these continual evangelical, ignorant rants serve no purpose. You don't like, don't use it. Some people understand how to use it. Some people like to use it. You have derailed this thread into a weird personal holy war. Please stop. You have gone way off topic in to crazy town.
     
  25. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Indeed. But you still have to hover with the mouse over the menu item first. Or do you know a magic trick for that one too? Dancing around the table maybe, and do a spell? :)

    Just curious, do you have one more workflow and polemic trick left to distract the discussion from the real problem? Or can we finally do the simple math, and agree that four required steps are more than two required steps? And that two required steps are simply faster and easier?

    There's no difference between clicking with mouse and hitting enter. It's still an required step. And so you are still at four steps in the ideal case. Two too much. While there are also the not so ideal cases where you need more than four steps.

    Nooo! It was six and a half!!!!

    Plus a few years and around a hundret bug reports or so ;)

    So you agree that the UI has flaws? What do we talk about here then? That's all i wanted to hear.
     
  26. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    That's a sweet color theme, can I get it somewhere? :)
     
  27. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Do you hear yourself talking? How should i be able to name all the examples or provide bug reports when i wouldn't know the software? And i know more than just Blender. I can really compare.

    Having another opinion does NOT mean to have no clue about the software.

    Yup, in a game it's even more important to have a good UI. But you fail to see the most obvious flaws at the application/software already. So how do you manage to create a good game UI at all? I still find this scary.

    And again you are wrong. I don't love or hate Blender. I use Blender. It's a tool. But to use Blender doesn't make me to a Blender evangelist. Blender is no messiah. It's also no maiden in a castle that needs to be protected. It's a software. With quite a few flaws.

    Do i smell emotions here? Count the personal attacks and insults towards me in this thread, and then let's talk about emotions and who is leading the holy war here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  28. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Have a look in the User preferences / themes, and have a look at the upper left corner where you can read Presets. There is a drop down box underneath. I think it is the elysium theme. :)
     
  29. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    Yeah I know how to change themes, but that does not look like any of stock ones that come with blender, certainly not elsyiun.
     
  30. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Ah, too bad, looked like elysium to me. Then let's wait for KheltonHeadley. He knows.
     
  31. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Nobody says Blender has no flaws. But the picture you paint here is beyond any reality.

    The thing is, you have bunch of professionals here, who work with Blender on a daily basis, along with commercial 3d apps, or a solid background in commercial 3d apps. They all disagree with you for the most parts, and still you proclaim how inefficient Blender is with your superficial knowledge.

    You don't have to, if you know what each method does. But you already demonstrated that you didn't. That is basic stuff.

    ??? Um ok, whatever that means...
    Not sure if you actually understand the idea behind the dialog box.

    Oh holy!!!! I have to click after pressing X!!! That's infamy and makes Blender's workflow incredible inconvenient. And yes, that is definitely secret Blender knowledge only 1% of all Blender users know.. not. It's basic stuff.

    Once again. If you know what you're doing, it takes a split second.

    Your opinion.

    And referring constantly to Andrew's videos doesn't make your points more true. You should watch the video below, because he admits there, that he did mistakes with his proposal.

    I know that everyone who disagrees with you, is just a blind Blender fanboy in your book. And eventually I'm fine with that because while you're at your crusade, Blender serves me actually very well as part of my tool shelf. No matter what you think.

     
  32. MaxieQ

    MaxieQ

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    You have no clue about the software. Your examples show this. Your angle of attack show this.

    I mean, if I were to criticise Blender - and these are valid criticisms - it would be that a new 3d app user would be better off learning Maya because it's the industry standard, and you might even be put at a disadvantage in a hiring situation if you have your foundation in Blender. It's going to cost the potential employer thousands of £s to get you up to speed on the industry standard they're likely to use.

    Faced with the costs of retraining, then the cost of the software becomes much less important. The employer would likely hire the guy who knows Maya already. This is a valid criticism of Blender. What you're banging on about isn't. I don't know what you're doing, to be honest. Trolling?
     
  33. goat

    goat

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    To be more truthful: the employer using the computer search algorithm isn't even going to search for Blender. They are likely to be an HR employee typing in a job request with no experience in 3D modeling. It will search for Maya and maybe 3DS Max. Or do you think those LinkedIn profiles overflowing with acronyms and buzz words of activities that the employee spent maybe 1% of their entire work career engaging in were filled with those buzz words because they thought an intelligent human being had a good chance of finding their profile without using search?

    That example above shows why it is so important to network locally and with those you meet, so you can help others or they can help you later. And it's the same principle that gets ignored when marketing your game. I am confident to say if you market your game locally, you may not get rich or even be able to support yourself with the earnings but you will be more successful than tossing it to the wind that is the money making advertising scam of today's internet.
     
  34. MaxieQ

    MaxieQ

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    Well, yeah, and the truth is that Blender is a jack of all trades but a master of none. It's good at what it does, but not great at something particular. Being great at something allows for programs like ZBrush which has a far more conflicted UI than Blender to thrive, while Blender languishes. If Blender did one thing amazingly well, like ZBrush does, maybe industry acceptance would be improved. But it's not there. That's another valid criticism of Blender. It's a very good modeller, it's a good sculptor, has a decent renderer. It's okay with animation. But it's not great at any of those things.
     
  35. BrainMelter

    BrainMelter

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Posts:
    572
    I think you're missing the point. Just like clicking, you still have to pay an action when you hit enter on the keyboard. Hitting enter will probably be more expensive than clicking because your hand will probably already be on the mouse, if you're right-handed anyway.
     
  36. Tiles

    Tiles

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Posts:
    2,481
    When that's your opinion, even after all the examples and explanations, well, then that's your opinion.

    Wohoo, the professional card. Hear hear! Does professional math go any different than normal math? Is four less than two there? Just curious. And just because you ignore the thing with the four needed steps so hard :)

    Sure, i'm alone here. But who is brave enough to answer towards my direction at this point now? This thread is as derailed as possible without being closed. You and others here would most probably shoot em down in a second. So yes, i'm alone here. The folks knows where they have to be quiet.

    Are you kidding me or did you really understand my description in the way that the mouse click is the secret workflow that i mean?

    It's the hotkey X that is relative unknown. That's the flaw. It has no menu entry, you cannot stumble across it. Somebody needs to tell you about it.

    So you know a trick around the quiz delete menu? Besides the X button that leads you to the quiz panel too? I'm open to every suggestion :)

    *waits for the hotkey solution* <-- Honestly, i wait since several answers for them. Why do i need to mention that you can hotkey the items in the delete menu? Why didn't this one come from you as a professional? THAT'S BASIC!!!!!!!! I'm just a hobbyist, i don't need to know that ;)

    While at it, the drama with the hotkeys is of course that there is no proper hotkey left. The useful ones are already assigned to tools that you need once a year. But that's another usability chapter. And when we start this chapter then i fear we will never end here.

    And once again, i know what i'm doing too. I don't need to play the professional card after 15 years of 3D experience really.

    It's of course just a split second. But one that adds over the day. And the delete quiz is just one example of many. A better UI without all those split second slowdowners could speed up your workflow quite a bit. And would make it easier for newbies to enter Blender.

    It is not my points. That's why i linked to the videos. It is the points of a well known and respected Blender supporter. It's also not a story of one or two persons. This debate went through the whole community for quite a while. One half thinks he is right, and one half thinks he is wrong. It was a big debate. So i wonder how you could miss it when you know Blender so good.

    Yes, the proposal was crap. His conclusion was wrong. And that's what he admitted then. But he did not admit to be completely wrong. Please rewatch the video. The points in the first two videos stays valid. Even the Blender devs admits that there is lots of work waiting for the UI. That's why the UI team is back at work. And Andrew is part of it. He wouldn't be part of it when he would be completely off.

    Again, what are we debating then here? All i did is to point at a few flaws. To show where Blender could become better. As an example why UI matters, and why it is nothing estethical.

    I do not doub that Blender fits into your tool shelf. I do not doubt that Blender is useful for you. Why should i? Blender is part of my pipeline too, it fits also into my tool shelf, and it is also useful for me. It does the job, even with the flaws. That's the part that i like at it.

    It's as usual you who wants to put me into the hater corner. You hear Blender, you hear flaw, and that's it with thinking. You folks are so busy to put me into that clueless and hater corner that you don't notice the moments anymore where i even agree with you.

    I don't hate Blender. I never said i hate Blender. And just in case you missed it, i repeat it: i don't hate Blender! I also never said that Blender is completely useless or any other kind of nonsense insultings that can be found in this thread meanwhile. Please search somebody else for this kind of insults.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  37. KheltonHeadley

    KheltonHeadley

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Posts:
    1,685
    Tiles who said it didn't have flaws? Unity has flaws, these forums have flaws. Nothing is perfect, nor is trueSpace. Going back to the hovering over, when you press X it autohovers if you don't move your mouse, so it's two steps, just like trueSpace. Nothing else is as bad as you say, if you didn't know pressing Delete will also delete an object, and when you do that the X dialogue shows up so you know for the future. You need to grow up and stop your useless debate, not only are you not making any sense, you're just acting like a child.

    Regarding my theme just pm me and I'll send it to you, it's custom.
     
  38. nadadepao_underground

    nadadepao_underground

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Posts:
    7
    Heh, could someone recomend me any tutorial series for Blender or something, i feel that i still got plenty of stuff to learn.
     
  39. Ricks

    Ricks

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Posts:
    650
    Using blender too. Good program, but UI lacks, as Tiles pointed out already. I too often need to enable/disable menu frames, resize window frames, change layout sections, or scroll upwards/downwards/even sidewards just to make some menu icons visible. Annoying. I also agree that the UI is cluttered, and bejold - the way to create and remove window frames (at the corners) is worse than in blender 2.4.

    But it's a good program nevertheless and most importantly - it gets the job done - be it modelling, texturing, animating. Some modelling tools lack also features - but there is worse in the 3D world. Applications which cost 1.000$ and are ... worse. Given that it's free and you constantly get updates I hardly find myself bitching about it anymore. I would have liked Andrew Price's suggestions implemented, but that will stay a dream :(
     
  40. nipoco

    nipoco

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Posts:
    2,008
    Yes, because professionals have a in-depth knowledge about the software they use. And they can really compare Blender with commercial 3d applications. You tell us you have 15 years plus of 3d experience and yet, you demonstrate a lack of even basic knowledge about Blender or any other 3d app.

    If I'd be completely alone with my opinion here, I'd normally sit down and might think about one, or two things. But instead you're obviously only interested in having the last word here and act like a spoiled child.

    There is no secret workflow, nor is the x key relatively unknown. This is one of the basic things you learn about Blender when you start. You can read that in the documentation, you can see that in nearly every basic Blender tutorial, you can download numerous Keyboard shortcut sheets (including Blenderguru)
    You have to learn a lot in each DCC software. I use Photoshop on a daily basis and it has also a lot hot-keys that you need to learn in order to use it efficiently.

    Once again, you demonstrate that you did not understand the value of the delete dialogue box. It's actually there for a good reason. And I don't know why you still refer to it as "quiz box" That is really childish..
    You can of course keep nitpicking such stuff. And that is all you do the whole time. Nitpicking. Not one of your examples makes Blender less inefficient.
    Indeed it requires a knowledge about Blender, you're apparently not willing to learn. Believe me, you'd also have a hard time with Maya, Modo or 3ds Max. None of those makes you magically to a professional in a month.

    The thing is. Nobody says that Blender has a superior and perfect UI, or workflow. That is what you put in our mouths. We all know that Blender could need improvements. Not just in the UI department. And of course Andrew was not completely wrong. However, that makes Blender still not as bad as you want to paint it here.
    And the video proposals you constantly post here, have fundamental flaws, like your flawed comparison with trueSpace.

    It is your ignorance and unhealthy obsession towards Blender, mixed with your superficial knowledge. Shaderop already told you, that you tend to hyperbole (300+ shortcuts, the 5% screen ratio etc.) or sheer nitpicking (you have to click one time more because of the dialogue box selection).
    But none of your examples was a fundamental flaw. And that is the issue here. Blender is not that bad as you want it to be.
    And personally I believe, no matter how good Blender get's you will always moan about it, because it is not "one of the big boys" as you like to say.

    Since version 2.5, Blender has made so many huge leaps in the right direction. Be it poly modeling, or UI, or rendering. And it still keeps improving each day. All thanks to a lot dedicated people who put money, effort and their skills into the development. But all I see from you, across different forums, is your efforts to play it down, whenever you see the chance to do so.
    It's absolutely destructive behavior. Nothing that brings Blender forward. It's disrespectful to everyone who take a part of Blender's development

    Your achievement was to derail this thread.
    I mean, this was a completely healthy thread with some worthy discussion, until you stepped in with your hyperboles and provocative behavior.

     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  41. Beardbotnik

    Beardbotnik

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Posts:
    49
    While I have had to scroll at times, I generally don't need to if I use the extended spacebar plugin. Even without the extended plugin you can use the normal spacebar search to find tools and it will display a hotkey by it if it has one. That isn't to say that some tools don't have hotkey shortcuts though.

    For windows I generally don't need to resize them either since you can just customize the different workspaces that are selectable at the top. So my default one is my modeling workspace, the UV editing is my uv unwrap and texturing workspace, etc...

    So that that point there is no resizing of windows and the layout changes are just at the click of a button.

    For what Tiles said before about people not knowing about the X hotkey for deleting things, if you try and use the Delete Key first which is what I tend to default to for deleting objects in new software, you will see the Delete Dialogue show up which shows the hotkey next to it which reads as "X" using this along with the space search function makes it pretty easy to figure out hotkeys for different tools.

    Though I do agree that Blender can still improve when it comes to GUI. I would love to be able to have floating windows with customized toolbars and stuff. Or a way to have a horizontal tab set up, screens are wider than they are high so then I could have all tabs on screen without scrolling and probably fit all of the buttons in as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  42. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Posts:
    9,042
    Yea, it is called a keyboard. You do not have use the mouse. Arrow to the one you want use and hit return. It will remember you last choice as well, so often no selection is required.

    Try a little harder to pay attention to what is being said.

    I wasn't commenting on your opinion, in fact I AGREED with your assessment from the very beginning. However you should have stopped there, because your "proofs" clearly illustrate you don't actually know how to effectively use the program. You may think you do, but you are posting examples that noob experiences at best.

    What in the hell are you talking about? Are you just rambling incoherently or intentionally trolling?
    What to do you think I fail to see? I already stated that it UI is not great. I haven't disagreed with that at all. You keep trying to "prove" something I and others already agreed on.

    You are pointlessly arguing against no one, and those few that don't agree aren't going to be changed by your opinion. Or, the UI isn't a deal breaker for what the rest of app provides. For many it is a perfectly acceptable trade off.

    Many years as a very successful professional in the industry. But more importantly, because I DON'T BASE UI DECISIONS ON A PIECE OF SOFTWARE IN MY TOOLBOX. Also, the value of a tool isn't entirely dependent one aspect. And simply using a tool doesn't mean I subscribe to/embrace every aspect of it. And finally because for the last time.... I NEVER CLAIMED BLENDERS UI WAS AWESOME. Stop claiming otherwise, it is making you look like a fool.

    The personal attacks started with and are maintained by you. One of my first comments was directly supporting your claim, to which you respond with an attack.

    At any rate, since you clearly, don’t understand the app (due only to the fact you keep demonstrating it in detail) and insistent on attacking everyone regardless of wether or not they agree you with and that your “point” has no point. (people will use or not use Blender based on the whole package, if the UI is to abysmal for them they won’t, if it is an acceptable trade off for the rest of the app, they still might). I will just end with this:
    “Whatever, dude.”
     
  43. pete1061

    pete1061

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Posts:
    67
    I'm not a maya user either. I use MAX. I also don't use WASD, I use arrows (I'm a left handed mouse user)

    I've just found blender to be extremely clumsy and awkward. There are tons of hotkeys to remember (for some odd reason hotkeys are tough things for me to remember) and things are buried in too many levels of menu in the UI.