Search Unity

  1. Megacity Metro Demo now available. Download now.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Unity support for visionOS is now available. Learn more in our blog post.
    Dismiss Notice

What is the proper workflow for indie? Why do most FPS indie games "look" the same...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Slyder, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. Slyder

    Slyder

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2013
    Posts:
    270
    speaking strictly based off what I see happening with similar projects on Youtube...

    Indie games seem to follow a trend of "Winging It"...to the point where I actually can't find a single video on Youtube of any organized indie game project. For FPS games I see one of the following things EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

    A) A Giant empty world full of 30 different weapon models, test enemies to handle damage, and Enemies with the most basic AI possible (walk towards player) and something like "Breakable objects" that don't really break all that spectacularly...and then all of their updates are something along the lines of "Added a new weapon!". These usually at least have a nice FPS camera (purchased Asset). These projects seem to too focused on the overall picture. No individual aspect seems complete.

    OR

    B) A Giant ugly world (usually generated with basic Unity terrain composer) with a floating weapon. Most basic possible AI. These projects seem to be stuck on the "look" of their game and engulfed in premature level-design.


    What seems to REALLY be lacking is organization and focus. I feel like individual mechanics should be fleshed out and you don't need to jump all over the place on your project UNLESS the focus piece depends on another mechanic also...at which point you should get the 2nd mechanic only up to the point required to finish your focus piece.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  2. yuriythebest

    yuriythebest

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Posts:
    1,121
    I made an FPS single-handedly a while back when I was learning unity (see signature) - it is exactly the stuff you described above that made me want to go at it alone and not rely on anyone
     
  3. Slyder

    Slyder

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2013
    Posts:
    270
    Please elaborate...are you saying that you used a "wing it" approach or did you modulate your project? I'm just trying to see what people have created and the methods they used.

    I work better by modulating things so that I see things reach a near-complete status before moving on...as opposed to having to go back to it later over and over again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  4. squared55

    squared55

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Posts:
    1,818
    Those projects, are, by and large, for fun. Making a whole new gun is fun. Polishing the recoil on one gun is not.
     
  5. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Posts:
    29,723
    I'm a freak, I love polish, it's one of the things I really enjoy about game development. Sadly, I never get enough time to polish as much as I'd like because it doesn't end.
     
  6. Slyder

    Slyder

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2013
    Posts:
    270
    LOL THIS...

    I can rewrite the same thing in a more efficient way over and over and over again. It's fun!...problem is it never ends. I can't imagine this mentality being spread out over an entire project though. The Scope is far too wide and it's impossible to polish anything with that method of development.

    Get a piece of the game to a near release ready state...Move on and do the next to another Piece...until you have a near release product.
    Now iterate through the entire project as many times as you want and add/polish things on the macro-scale.
     
  7. GMM

    GMM

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Posts:
    301
    A lot of the smaller Indie stuff looks the same because they quite frankly do not invest a lot of time in to those productions. It's easy to be proud of something you have done in a few hours, but the real quality comes from the attention to detail and pursuit of polish like hippocoder says.

    Personally i love reiterating on the things i do, because i know that they only get better for every pass i do on them. When i look back at some of the early implementations on a project, it makes me laugh at how much worse it actually is compared to the new solution.
     
  8. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    It's getting that fine line, you at least want a concept of the final game.. But don't put extreme effort into making it look pretty and fine tuning until the end.

    Especially with Unity 5 around the corner, we'll be replacing textures for PBR workflow.. Replacing our tree's with SpeeTree, resetting the lighting and post when Enlighten kicks off.. So if you are working on a large game I wouldn't bother fine tuning it at all for the moment.. Just get the core mechanics ready and polished..
     
  9. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Posts:
    3,350
    That's what games look like very early in development. It sounds like you're saying you don't want people to post anything on youtube until their game is almost finished.
     
  10. Meltdown

    Meltdown

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Posts:
    5,816
    Because they buy an asset pack, push out some terrain and place a few models, then show their progress.

    Then when the real hard work begins, that's when progress halts.
     
  11. MaxieQ

    MaxieQ

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Posts:
    295
    I think that is because most indies don't approach making games as an art project but as a coding one. They see it as a technical challenge where they spend a lot more time refining code and algorithm than they do on art assets. In fact, they tend to prioritise art down.

    It is my opinion that a game is an art project, and I say that as a coder. I think that it is probably more important to make a game look good than it is to include the latest trend in hyper-realistic shading.

    That's not to say that coding is not important, of course it is. Badly coded games break the game. Glitches and bugs pull you out of the game. Poor mechanics is a source of frustration. But still, I think on the whole, when most people approach a game, how it looks and feels is more important than if the mechanics are impressively complex.
     
  12. SmellyDogs

    SmellyDogs

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Posts:
    387
    FPS is quite fun to make but of course horrible to play, from a neutral point of view indie FPS suck really bad.

    I've thought about why this is a while and I believe the reason is indie is usually inspired by some franchise and try to get it graphically as good.
    Second, indies are coders or artists not game designer so they are pretty clueless about how to make something interesting and different. Plus there's the added problem of execution of a good idea.

    I think humans in general just have a hard time coming up with novel ideas, its just the way we are, we tend to follow others who in turn follow others. I know popular fiction films like Star Trek try to say humans are this unique force of freedom, and so on but its just really not the way it is in real life.
     
  13. cynic

    cynic

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Posts:
    142
    Yea, I also think this is a typical problem of people actually just playing around with their "dream" idea, without much of a plan, game design or broader concept. And yes, I agree there many "projects" seem based on starter kits from the asset store. :p

    The thing is: Most of those games I guess you're referring to will probably never ship. They are amateur projects resembling Battlefield, COD or whatever other series. Most of them in a modern theme with their own models but the same weapon types over and over again. Problem is: barely anyone is interested in more of the same and those concepts show nothing we don't see in any of the big franchises. There's no new ideas, no interesting level design, nothing. People are just proudly showing off shooting some weapons. Just don't pay much attention to these projects.

    I wouldn't even call those projects Indie FPS (while some nice ones do exist), they're simply hobby replicas of [insert generic modern warfare game here].
     
  14. squared55

    squared55

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Posts:
    1,818
    I think you've got this backwards. Most indie devs want to be designers. They just can't make their dreams a reality.

    I think graphics attract players to a game. Gameplay/coding keeps them there. Case-in-point? The Battlefield 3 aircraft carrier/jet scene. Looked absolutely stunning.
    $Battlefield-3-Screenshot-Aircraft-Carrier.jpg

    Then you get into the jet, and spend 15 mind-numbing minutes on a terrible rail shooter.

    That said: Minecraft
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  15. MaxieQ

    MaxieQ

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Posts:
    295
    Yeah, like I said in the last para you quoted. Game mechanics which are frustration pull people out of a game. In a way, game mechanics which are "invisible", ie that the player doesn't have to think much about, are probably the best. If they don't get in the way of the player, it's the feel and the look that keep the player in the game.
     
  16. squared55

    squared55

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Posts:
    1,818
    I think this applies 90% of the time. I think you can get players exclusively on REALLY good mechanics (again, Minecraft), but when given a choice between good gameplay, or good gameplay AND good graphics, guess which one I'll choose. :)

    Thing is, for a lot of indie FPS's, the "focus piece" tends to be "I'll have MOAR STUFF than your game!" Or you could say they have the "focus piece" is the guns/movement, in which case they're done that with the use of the previously mentioned FPS camera.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  17. SmellyDogs

    SmellyDogs

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Posts:
    387
    No I meant that. Ok, maybe some who have just an idea but can't script "want" to be designers, but simply are not. At least, I don't think its fair to call someone a game designer unless they can make consistently good designs.
     
  18. eskovas

    eskovas

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Posts:
    1,373
    Yes some of what you said is very true, many people buy or download fps packages and then post videos about it and tell they are developing a game but only showing that package (that kind of annoys me a bit), but hey, you have to start somewhere.
    I purposely started without any package and making everything myself since i wanted to learn from the start, and it's better when you actually know every single line of code and how they work, because you were the one who created it.

    I'm making a FPS by myself, and the project is almost hitting the 3 year mark, and it changed a lot during development, but things have been much smoother for a little more than a year.

    Regarding the general FPS game made with Unity, it's best if you look at the whole picture and not only watch the most simple and new projects out there.
    On the top of my head, here are some very good FPS games being made using Unity:

    kardsharp game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoiTsXk-YRA&list=PLF55A6FFBCEEE5013

    Alpha project : line of fire : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W69s2XsiSxY

    Elite Squad : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYv9BAlDiyg

    Paragon Evolved (from Squared55) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuJw917S1lg

    one man army 3d's futuristic game : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioOnwVPsaU0&list=UU1IdQuZ390hhqacNIHICUWw

    and ofcourse my game :p : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPoTW41p41k

    As you can see there are many FPS games in the works that have direction and are organized.
    These are just some that i remember, but there are many others out there.
    Don't judge every single FPS made with Unity because of some videos using fps packages.
     
  19. LilWiebe

    LilWiebe

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Posts:
    69
    Also probably everyone knows about Interstellar Marines, but that's a pretty good counterexample. :) Even if it is taking them forever, they DO have some seriously impressive work.
     
  20. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,182
    Well you'd expect it if you are using Unity and are teaching yourself programming all using the same assets and the same tutorials.

    I saw screen shots of that Slender guy game from a while back and that's an example of what you can do as a programmer or artist that no big business in their right mind would hire once you get over the novelty of making a game. They still wouldn't likely hire him so I hope he made some good money with his success because it's hard to get that once, let alone make a successful followup.
     
  21. Vanamerax

    Vanamerax

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Posts:
    938
    That has happened pretty often to me now. Especially when learning new things with programming every day, a few-months-old piece of code can be quite hilarious
     
  22. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,182
    Yes: Minecraft, plenty of big studios are passing off high end graphics as game design.
     
  23. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,182
    Museums are full of people that aren't a bit interested in game play and most tabloids are so vapid you know that folk are just looking at the pictures. And the most famous example: I buy Playboy to read the articles. Is Playboy even still for sale?
     
  24. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,182
    Think of the dev they could have done if not for the forums making videos - so a lot of Unity style game dev is supposed to be helpful and social but still has a ways to get to that point. In real development the last thing you'd do is expose your original take on a problem being solved by exposing it at the beginning - especially as a one man or small team - if the ideal proved popular at all that you were working on you be outgunned so quickly by the big studios....

    That said - there are so many good ideals and good sources of inspiration that are untapped I don't mind sharing, even when I get ignored or ridiculed for it - actually if I get ignored or ridiculed doesn't mean that some wasn't already working on a similar ideal or took the suggestion to start and simply doesn't acknowledge that. I just won't share what I'm working on directly unless I'm almost done, which is invariably much less inspiring because I don't have the reasons of the big guys or the ability to sit 12 hours a day on a task anymore. Also, the good ideals and good sources of inspiration invariably take a lot of developing of new art and possibly new game mechanics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  25. jackhearts

    jackhearts

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Posts:
    103
  26. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,182
    LOL, the opening with the water tower falling on the would-be hero is funny.