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Microsoft open sourcing C# and a lot of the rest of .Net

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MaxieQ, Apr 4, 2014.

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  1. MaxieQ

    MaxieQ

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    How about Facebook?

    *ducks and runs for cover*
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  2. Dustin-Horne

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    I think this follows nicely along with the open sourcing of the APIs. EntityFramework was a good example as there are lots of community contributions and some that even made it into the official release.

    As for Microsoft buying Unity... when it created XNA there weren't many tools for indie developers. Most relied on tools like Ogre. XNA didn't have an IDE (other than Visual Studio, nothing graphical) and it wasn't an Engine so it's not really completely comparable to Unity. Part of the reason most XNA games were so crappy is that everyone had to build their own engine and manage their own vertex and index buffers, etc. It was a great way for MS to get indie games to Xbox and allow them to be developed in C# but the reason they scrapped it was because it was always tied to a version of DirectX which was always tied to an OS release. However, newer OS releases could only take XNA so far because it was still limited by the 360 being stuck at DirectX 9.

    So, it was a business decision, but a good one. There are other big players in the market, Unity being a very prominent one. Microsoft has realized that it's much better to partner with Vendors like Unity than to acquire and run it themselves. I think the chances they would even try to buy Unity are probably close to zero.
     
  3. minionnz

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    Well this post makes more sense than the last one, perhaps I misread it :) I do believe that C# is a lot more than niche tech in the million dollar part of the industry, though I can understand government systems etc being based on Java. I would argue that this has more to do with the legacy of these systems than the capabilities of the technology.

    .NET has a decent OSS ecosystem around it as well - and while .NET may be restricted to/more popular on Windows, the mono project and Microsoft's recent attitude towards open source suggest that this won't always be the case.

    Also - I believe MS have learned their lesson around changing standards.
     
  4. minionnz

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    What about enterprise intranet hosting etc? While it's obvious why people would choose a linux server over a MS one when hosting a public website (PHP + cheaper), I'd believe that Microsoft's slice in the business/enterprise side of the market would be a lot higher.
     
  5. cynic

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    Arrrrrrr! ;)

    Well the thing is... it's not all about hosting either way. Apart from the odd one out decision where some "larger" project really gets done with Mono, this is rarely the case. From my experience you use MS servers mostly because you got them sponsored, because of business decisions and existing know-how, and because you want to support Windows clients and related services.

    Apart from that however, there are a lot of large scale professional systems which handle all kinds of tasks within enterprises, such as job scheduling, resource automation and whatnot for all kinds of special fields. There are a lot of them and they all need to work with various kinds of servers. You might have some Windows servers in between, but mostly it would be Linux, Solaris, AIX with DB2 running on it and whatnot. Those systems are Java and certainly not .NET or Mono. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
     
  6. npsf3000

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    While you're on your little crusade mind explaining what *websites* have to do server market share?
     
  7. goat

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    I'm sure I'm not the only one that's worked with government and big banks but Microsoft servers and client tend to be used when their will be clients without a college education in computer science using the computer sub-network while the UNIX servers (there are rarely UNIX workstation computers except in some companies to entice nerds into employment) variants are used on the internet and at sites where only degreed computer science workers will be accessing the computer sub-network.

    Managers aren't about to ask a non-computer science professionals to mess around with UNIX variants, not even Ubuntu, so Microsoft is pretty safe there.
     
  8. Smooth-P

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    Gonna point out here that OSX is UNIX and Ubuntu is not...
     
  9. goat

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    Sorry to offend the Linux and Ubuntu folk but Linux and the GNU SW is a UNIX variant no matter if they get sued by the current UNIX trademark / patent holders or not. I didn't get offered and accepted LINUX jobs because of my background in Windows (next to no experience) but because of many UNIX variants and there used to be at least a dozen. I used Ubuntu in fact to recover the data for an broken old arcade game, but if you think Mr. Torvalds will issue you street cred by splitting hairs go right ahead.

    I've only seen Apples professional twice - at university way back in the late 1980s and then one in government, when it actually was UNIX, or not, if you talk to trademark lawyers, and that was solely to appease a systems administrator that didn't like the Solaris workstations (lol, that sys admin wasn't me by the way).
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  10. jc_lvngstn

    jc_lvngstn

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    This thread reminds me of the "I'm a PC" commercials from Apple, that dissed not just Microsoft and PCs in general, but the people who used those products. What a bunch of ignorant drivel. All aboard the MS Hate Bandwagon, it makes us feel better about ourselves somehow!
     
  11. goat

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    And you joined us? Why yes!
     
  12. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    You guys realise that ms haters are in a tiny, tiny minority? It's just this hating minority need to post about it while everyone else is content.
     
  13. goat

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    Oh, no one was hating, just being silly:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkH1RkTClgg

    Pat is a much better spokesman? spokeswoman? on tar archives then we are.
     
  14. thxfoo

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    I only showed the numbers because makeshiftwings showed the 33% that are if you include the many million parked domains that are hosted on a handful of MS server for money to make nice stats.

    In really large companies and government you have those hundreds of systems, some very old. We talk very big companies here. Those do not run Java or .NET, but you have to communicate with them. Most of them will not be replaced soon if ever, they work and the risk and cost of replacing them is huge.

    This is EAI (enterprise application integration), where the big money is. You glue together the heterogenous IT to one big system. Companies can buy lots of solutions for good money, but if you are big there will never be a solution to glue everything together. Somebody has to create this integration. If it is good, you can react faster than your competition to market changes, you can create new processes and products faster. You could do it in .NET, but talking to hundreds of different systems is just much more work there. And this stuff has to be very reliable and efficient, you would not want that on a server that also has a desktop Gui and desktop services running in the background, and lets say is not famous for its stability. This is like the London Stock Exchange example, you could try with .NET, but most sane people would not. If part of your solution needs a server with 128 CPUs, you would try to install windows on that thing? Good luck.

    To play in this game you must be able to understand the technologies and systems used in a short time. If you know a lot of different things already and have done this at other large organizations, it gets a lot easier. Normally after some weeks you will know more about the IT at the customer than anybody that works there. Sad but true. They all only know their garden. Of course there are exceptions, companies where IT and IT management are top, oh I love working with them.

    I think people that have a lot of experience with both systems maybe have a clearer picture than those that know only one well. I started with windows like most. I developed a lot of code for windows on windows. Now I boot to linux and have windows VMs for windows coding.
    I could tell you so many examples why not working on windows is much more efficient as professional coder, but lets not open this can of worms for now. I'm pragmatic, I work with and where I get my work done easiest. There are some big C++ projects that use MS APIs mostly (if people would follow C++ standard those could even be ported, but these are in "MS C++"), I do those on windows, the rest, meh.
     
  15. thxfoo

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    ... And I don't think that is very different at places like the MIT. And that is not only the "coolness" factor, it is also about business practices.

    These circles follow the news and history very closely, things like undermining ISO to make OOXML a standard, paid FUD against Linux, contracts that prevent any competition, sh#ting on its own partners, abusing software patents to get money from android (software patents are a joke, lets not talk that), implementing every standard a little wrong by purpose (so the management summary has a checkbox for standard Y but it will never work with any other implementation of Y),....

    I could make this list much longer, but you see what I mean. So you call this hate? If it is, it is reasonable hate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  16. Dabeh

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    It's cool to hate Microsoft. A lot of them may not even know why they're hating it or just saying they do since their friends do. Microsoft has some dirty tactics, but what on earth does that have to do with working there. I bet a lot of the people on that poll would take the job if they were offered one by Microsoft(so long as it's not a custodian job) even if they have some dodgy business practices people may not agree with. They're students, most of them lack real world experience; they're the worst demographic you could have used to demonstrate your point.

    Like you said, working at a big bank would be worse to you and the reason for that is because it is. Those people voting against Microsoft are doing it because it's cool to hate them right now and lack the experience. I know you understood this when you mentioned what you'd hate much more, you just seemed to ignore the correlation.
     
  17. hippocoder

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    There's something to hate about everything. Maybe we all gloss over the good MS has done for the world, arguably:

    1. Bill Gates. You can't ignore the fact that his charitable efforts and Microsoft gave a whole lot of people a lot of jobs, directly and indirectly and injected billions into the economy.

    2. Competition (and lack of) - MS has spurred everyone to try and beat them. Is that something that should not exist?

    3. C#. Xbox. Whatever thing here. Windows.

    There's lots MS do wrong and DX11 is one of them. But in order to criticise MS you first have to look at the root: and that's software patents among other things. Maybe DX11 being good made OpenGL wake up? Maybe it creates innovation. But if you want to talk about patent abuse there's a really long queue here with just about everyone from Apple to Google also causing a stir and trying the exact same things. Is MS to be hated for being better at it? :D

    Personally, I think there's bigger things to hate such as software patents that enable these companies to create problems in the first place.
     
  18. thxfoo

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    Maybe true, but such people can get a job at almost any company, they have the luxury to follow their moral compass.

    1. Charity yes, but that is not MS. That billions on MS and Bills bank account have basically been taken out of the economy. And the jobs would still have to be done, even if not with MS technology.
    2. MS did very shady stuff to prevent any competition. I think we would have much better systems today if they had not done everything to prevent any competition or in some cases made sure the better competing product dies.
    3. I prefer Java, PS3/4 and *nix. However, I give you that one such that there is more competition in the market (windows is a toy regardless ;-) ).

    I fully agree. However, it is very wrong to name google with apple and MS as patent abusers. Name a single case where google used a patent as aggressor. Just one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  19. Ryiah

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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  20. thxfoo

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    Good joke, lol.
     
  21. Ryiah

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    You quoted someone and tried to use the statistics to prove that the Windows server market share was not a certain percentage. But neither Apache nor nginx statistics are good for that as both support Windows. So while highly improbable, it is entirely possible for all those statistics to be purely Windows servers.

    Honestly between your previous way of referring to Microsoft as "M$" and your essentially useless statistics, it is hard for me to take you seriously.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  22. cynic

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    I'm not sure how this whole discussion drifted into allegedly bashing Microsoft, which in my eyes never happened here. People are merely discussing different paradigms and their advantages/disadvantages. Oh well, perhaps the MS crowd is just on edge these days, I don't know. :p

    In reality what many people are saying is, that it is a real pity Microsoft didn't open and push .NET into multi-platform much earlier and itself, because it really could have become a huge thing. Unfortunately, historically, MS failed with its war on Java, trying to do to it, what it has done to C++, and that is including otherwise incompatible extensions to the language which would only work on Windows systems. Once they recovered they came up with their own thing and that is also why C# is so extremely similar to Java. Instead however pushing .NET as a Java competitor they kept it Windows only again, because back then nothing within Microsoft mattered more than pushing their Windows platform.

    Some might see this as bashing, I don't care. It is legitimate criticism, because .NET and C# are actually fantastic technologies, which Microsoft could have done so much more with.

    Well, no, not really. Linux is a UNIX derivate, not a "variant". The systems are inherently similar because Linux was modelled after UNIX to a great extent and yet they are incompatible. Nevertheless, you'd obviously net a Linux position with a lot of UNIX knowledge. ;)

    Currently, there are only a handful of proper and certified Unices: AIX, HP-UX, Mac OS X, K-UX and Solaris.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  23. thxfoo

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    Somebody else gave the 33% number from the same statistic which is very wrong (I explained why), I only corrected that to the current known number, 11%, with source. You know as good as I do that far more than 95% of those apache/nginx run on *nix servers. The 11% number is even much too high if you think about it for a minute. Because e.g. google.com counts as 1 server, but google.com are 100,000s of servers. And the huge server farms on this world are mostly *nix. So if you try to get a realistic estimate it looks much worse for MS.

    You could get a very good estimate of the number of servers on public internet:
    You could take the statistics about the million busiest sites, and then multiply with the amount of traffic each site gets (twice the traffic should mean twice the servers, not exact but evens out over so many samples). Normalize by the companies you know the number of server on that list. Add that to the statistic about active sites. Basic CS 1*1. I don't have to tell you what that means for the % of MS servers.

    Now add all super computers on this world, lets say each super computer is 10,000 servers (good super computers have cores in the millions). Now add the data centers of the NSA and similar organizations. All *nix in this paragraph.

    Then add the cloud providers.

    I would argue that this number will be a significant part of the global number of servers, so the web server statistics are useful if you try to make an estimate about globally deployed servers nevertheless.

    I could go on on how to create an upper bound for the % of MS servers globally by looking at companies, but so what...

    As somebody said in this thread, look what software runs on this servers. It is equally important. Are these servers that must handle 100,000 employees or nobody in the company can work or is it grandmas flower shop (yes that is an extreme comparison, but you get the idea, the CTO that lets you create the 100,000 employee thing on MS servers probably got a BJ from MS and should be fired immediately). All the number crunching from weather to nuclear, all high availability from airplanes to cars to space exploration, all world finance core systems use not-MS for a reason, you use the tool that fits the job and not what you like most.

    See previous posts about shady business practices of MS. I use my first amendment right to call them M$ whenever I like because they have proven enough that they do everything for money.

    What he said! But the VM must be open sourced too otherwise it does not help. But they probably cannot do that to Xamarin, it would destroy their business. But MS back stabbed so many partners, one more doesn't matter ;-)
    But even if, it would take a lot of time and effort to port it to all other systems.

    [edit:]
    And it must be a really free license, e.g. MIT or similar, not GPL or LGPL.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  24. jc_lvngstn

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    "They" are a large group of people, not all are doing everything just for money. Many are dedicated individuals who truly care about improving themselves and others.

    "They" have produced an operating system which is not only the most versatile in the world for home computing, but also arguably the greatest game platform for the last 20+ years. It supports more hardware, software, and people than any of the other platforms combined. You have M$Hate blinders on I think, and like many others on a crusade can't give credit where credit is due. Do I like everything they do, heck no. But hey, at least I can go and freely build my own machine using their OS, with their full support. Can I do that with Apple? Nope. Can you even go purchase an Apple OS machine (with Apple's blessing) from someone else? Oh no. Um it wouldn't be as high quality right? What a laugh.

    I can bootcamp Windows on a mac. Hurray for Apple, what saints! Can I bootcamp OSX on a Windows machine? No. BOO MICROSOFT...oh wait, "M$" would allow it. It's APPLE that won't. Not that I need to, honestly.

    There is a reason people like C#, and Windows. It works very well, but it just burns me when I see people instead insult those who prefer those solutions and make perfectly good results with them. But you're right hippo...it's really a small minority (obviously), who won't acknowledge or appreciate the results.

    [Edit] Honestly...I wish the community as a whole could just be more supportive of their fellow developers regardless of the technology they choose. All of these companies have done good, and bad. This thread strikes a nerve with me because I have worked with people who were "snobs" and openly sneered at others because of their choice of tools to make a product, declared them to be not "real" or professional developers, whatever. It's a wretched, hypocritical place to be and I've probably been guilty of it myself to some degree.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  25. npsf3000

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    Again, please explain to me how one infers the number of windows servers from the number of websites run on windows? Those are very different concepts.

    You seem to be using both anecdotal evidence and cherry picked evidence that does not represent what you say to make some somewhat pointless arguments.
     
  26. thxfoo

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    MS research does cool stuff. C# is a top language design. Most ideas from Java and some clever improvements. But sorry, I cannot count Windows. Yes, as home user it is top, because it is easy. Mac OSX is easy too. So points for both. But as software engineer I have some problems with Windows, I will only list a few:

    - Hardware support: I can install *nix on almost anything. PCs, Macs, Phones, embedded devices, Tablets, Cars (ok, it's preinstalled, Tesla), ARM devices, Sparc Processors, Routers, Super Computers, 128 CPU monsters, PS3, some fridges and tons of exotic platforms even you or I have ever heard from. So in my world view you loose this one. And supports more people: you count the *nix based systems named IOS, android or your router and all the things most people never realize have a CPU and an OS?

    - Updates: on *nix, or better on everything non-MS if I trigger an update, it can update everything, not just the MS software, just everything including drivers. On windows every second program brings its own vulnerable png-reader or whaterver .dll, so you have to update every program individually and just hope that any single developer has a new version that replaces the png-reader .dll he deployed on your system otherwise you can still be f#cked by just opening that nice picture from the internet.

    - If I give my grandma a Linux DVD, she has everything, all drivers, all software (office stuff, drawing, games, opening or burning ISO images, bittorent,...). I could tell her to just always press enter, it would work. Good luck explaining your grandma how to install a driver or photoshop or office. I don't say Linux is for my grandma, that is not the point of this bullet. Its one system with all software and all drivers. (for me important, but lets ignore this point the others are better)

    - Windows command line is from the 80s. A real power user needs a good command line, because if the command line is good, you can do many things 10-100 times faster. Ever saw somebody who knows how to use it on Linux? When I first saw this I just thought this must be black magic. Ctrl-R to get any command you ever used and tab auto-completion alone make you so much faster with everything. Typing is much faster than clicking, and you do not even type whole commands, only some letters.

    - KISS, keep it simple stupid. That is the power of Linux. Many small programs, that do one simple thing very good, and you can chain them all. Yes you have PowerShell now, and can code C# in it, but coding a program and just piping some simple commands needs an order of magnitude different time. I could start formulating a simple task like e.g. analyse all log file in different folders (folder must match specific criteria and log files too), get all lines containing x or y, but ignore lines with z, sort it, take the first 100, just the 3. column, inverse sort, give me last 10 and replace all x by z. This is just a very simple task, you can do much more crazy stuff with one line of code. Doing this should take you at most 4 minutes, otherwise you use the wrong system as power user. If I ever did such a thing already I would just Ctrl-R it, change the 2-3 parts that are different this time and press enter, less than a minute. If I already did the same thing, I just Ctrl-R it and press enter, 3 seconds at most. And the Ctrl-R and tab auto-completion are the important part. On windows the tab auto-completion does not what you want, it is useless, and the blockwise copy mode of the shell makes the shell even more useless.

    - On Linux I type 'zypper install openssl-dev', than I start developing with openssl as a dependency. Ever tried to setup a project with 30 dependencies on Windows? It just hurts. In C++ even more than in C#. This is a huge difference as a developer.

    - Most (security-relevant) features in Windows are 10 years late: support of multiple users, separation of users, ACLs, parallel users, symlinks, starting programs with fewer rights than current user, chroot, pass the hash vulnerabilities (I'm no hacker but at many locations that had also some Windows servers I could take them over easily if I wanted, and often it would be easy to extend that to every Windows machine they have. Yes its a cheap insider attack, but real hackers could do much cooler stuff), but a plus is that forgetting your admin password is no problem (just boot a linux cd, read the hash and crack it, or even easier copy it into google the first hit will be the password, worked everytime I had to help a friend). All this stuff is ok in *nix since very very long time ago. In Windows the start of this list has been fixed over the years. But the end, meh. They even created a new nice one in the newest Windows Server and Windows 8, you can now even pass the hash for remote desktop, the OSS remote desktop client variants support it already, so you can login at the server even you forgot your admin password and just have the hash or lets say you "found" the hash. You have to understand that this are not some random vulnerabilities that are found and fixed, this are systemic problems with the design of the OS.

    - Windows plus point: Backward compatibility is very good (just some exotic stuff cannot run after XP, that's why some of people stay with it that stay with it)

    I will stop here. You may say I'm a fan boy, but I think this are very specific reasons. Not for normal computer users, but if you are a power user that uses that thing everyday for work and you are a coder, you should care about them. Linux is made by developers for developers, it is very hard for normal users because of that. You can adapt it to your needs, but you don't need to, it is already designed for you. Yes I talk only software engineering view, but my GF has no problems using it too and she has nothing to do with software development. But yes she can ask me stuff. But your grandma asks you stuff about Windows too, so it is the same. But Windows is easier for normal users, because Linux is for power users.

    I hate Apples walled garden approach and Apple. I would never buy an IPhone. But OS X is Unix, measured by the points above it is a quality system. A developer has endless power with it. Still wouldn't buy one (and you can install it on your own hardware if you have the right hardware, just use google).

    --------------

    I mean this nicely and not offensive. If you are not a professional software developer, stay with Windows. But if you make a living writing code on many different code bases, give it a try. Few that give it enough time will regret it and want to go back. It is made for you.
     
  27. Dantus

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    Is this thread still about "Microsoft open sourcing C# and a lot of the rest of .Net"?!
     
  28. MaxieQ

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    No, I think it derailed somewhere into a "Microsoft is bad, bad, bad" on page 2 or page 3.

    Speaking as an almost exclusive Debian 7 user (got it on all my boxes) and who only log into Windows to do two things ( a) play with Unity, and b) play Eve Online) I find it a bit tiring, tbh.

    As a tool, C# is an excellent choice - instead of the scripting languages like Lua and Python and UnityScript. I hope that this will enable Unity to link better to outside libraries and stuff.
     
  29. thxfoo

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    - Bad, bad, bad is a little much simplification. I assume you agree with most points about some of the shady business practices? Yes Oracle and Apple try to do some similar stuff, but MS is the master of it.

    - I assume you also agree with most points about the problems of windows if viewed as a software engineer as tool for a software engineer?

    Can you tell me which points you do not share? Just if you like, I'm genuinely interested.

    Lua and Python can call C interfaces like C# too. As pure tool C# is right, but with proprietary technology vendor lock-in is also an important consideration. If UT would have chosen Java, this thread would not exist, you would have a top GC for free and you could compile to the native Bytecode on android. *Duck and run*



    ---
    Sorry, I'm on vacation and it is raining all day.

    ----------------------

    @npsf3000: you read what I said? The number of MS web servers came from another user, from the same statistics, he just used the 33% number that looks nicer but makes no sense while the 11% makes much more sense (You know why, we are in a loop). I just told him if he wants to use numbers from there he must use the right number.
    But because you insisted on this numbers all the time I even started to show you how you could even get an estimate of all servers by working from that number and making some educated guesses about the world. What you learn in Physics or CS or wherever you have to guess stuff with few info:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem
    The estimate here should be better, because in the Fermi piano tuners example you could be off by a factor of 10 easily for the parameters, that is better for our problem. But I assume you would call it BS anyway and it would be a lot of work. You agree that above where I write "but so what..." we are at about 1-5% MS servers at most? (we started at 11% and added some huge non-MS junks, I even assume alone the step with weighting the 1M biggest domains by traffic could bring MS below 5%). Also note many cloud providers are already counted for the part that serves the web, so the could adding step would add many "invisible clouds" like Linux based DDOS protections services and pure compute clouds. You could go on estimating distribution in normal companies and number of such companies. You would be too high once, and too low once. It evens out more or less. That's why it is an estimate and no fact. But I think I better give it up, the other user showed the number for parked domains, I corrected it. Point.
     
  30. Dantus

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    But it nicely sums up the unnecessarily long and especially off topic discussion :D
     
  31. tatoforever

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    Perhaps they employed the wrong term? I believe they mean "experts programmers" instead of "professional programmers". Anyone making a living as a programmer is a professional, however there's different levels of expertise between programmers.
     
  32. Ocid

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    Well this was fun to read. Especially thxfoo's MS bad rants.
     
  33. saymoo

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    shall we go back ontopic, namely C# (the extra opensourced parts) and the .net foundation? :)
     
  34. cynic

    cynic

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    Yes, please. :)

    So either way, it seems the initial enthusiasm about this whole topic was slightly premature. If the VM is not being open sourced Xamarin remains in business and none of this is some magic solution to Unity's Mono problems.

    Goddamn guys, stop sitting on your hands. How much is that bloody license Xamarin wants from you and can't it become a part of Pro? What would that cost us?
     
  35. superpig

    superpig

    Drink more water! Unity Technologies

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    They're not sitting on their hands. Solutions are being explored. They just don't have anything to announce yet.
     
  36. zezba9000

    zezba9000

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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  37. tswalk

    tswalk

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    ^this^

    I have yet to see a high performance java app running in any client/server environment worth a damn.
     
  38. tswalk

    tswalk

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    unless they believe it can be a substantial benefit to core operations.... (I use to work at Nokia).
     
  39. tswalk

    tswalk

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    you lost your axe... it's over there by the grinder... >>>>
     
  40. zezba9000

    zezba9000

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    Java is faster then .NET usually (at least on Intel i7 CPUs). C++ is about 8 times as fast on iOS vs Mono with LLVM.

    I really wish Unity3D would use some of the work they did with Mono.Cecil and translate .NET IL to Nimrod (a lang as fast as C++ with a GC for games). If you can convert .NET IL to asm.js you can convert it to something like Nimrod or C++ with a GC.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  41. Dantus

    Dantus

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    The .NET IL to asm.js is not direct, but .NET IL to C++ to asm.js. There is a lot of potential in my opinion.
     
  42. superpig

    superpig

    Drink more water! Unity Technologies

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    I don't think you know how banks work...
     
  43. thxfoo

    thxfoo

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    MS critical voices not welcome, so change for peace
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  44. Dantus

    Dantus

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    I don't disagree because it is still off topic :)
     
  45. thxfoo

    thxfoo

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    Ok, it is used for speculation or HFT or with some hedge fund. If you think the money at the big banks works for the economy you have some reading to do. Actually I have some idea about banks, I have implemented some stuff at more than one of the worlds biggest banks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  46. thxfoo

    thxfoo

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    Web Framework Benchmarks, 2013-12-17, on I7: http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r8
    JSON serialization Latency:
    Java servlet 1.2ms; http-listener 2.8 ms; aspnet-stripped 4.3ms; aspnet 9.3ms; aspnet-mvc-mono 1040ms
    JSON serialization Peak performance (responses per second):
    Java servlet 213,974; http-listener 107,513; aspnet-stripped 59,891; aspnet 27,946; aspnet-mvc-mono 724

    http-listener as the name sais, a http-listener on .NET
    aspnet-stripped does not count as a realistic server in the ranking because as the name says, very stripped down

    So if you see Java apps that are much slower than your .NET apps I think they do it wrong. And yes, in programming there are sooo many more ways to do it wrong than to do it right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  47. Dantus

    Dantus

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    Congratulation thxfoo, you just became the first person on my very own ignore list.
     
  48. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

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    Wow. Such angry. Very Mic$oroft. Wow. So paragraphs.
     
  49. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Generally I prefer not to make baseless assumptions. No, I do not know for a fact that >95% of those are on *NIX and I strongly suspect you do not know either.

    Xamarin knows that Unity Technologies wants it. They know that UT's user base wants it. It isn't like UT could simply go to another company when Xamarin is the only company with a cross-platform equivalent to .NET (at least as far as I'm aware). Xamarin can probably ask any amount they want at this point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  50. thxfoo

    thxfoo

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    What he said! But the VM must be open sourced too otherwise it does not help. But they probably cannot do that to Xamarin, it would destroy their business. But MS back stabbed so many partners, one more doesn't matter ;-)
    But even if, it would take a lot of time and effort to port it to all other systems.

    And it must be a really free license, so not GPL or LGPL.

    This discussion seems not to be wanted here, but you continue with this sh#tty number, really?

    Yes I checked some numbers, but I think you did not. I said 95% such that no sane person could argue.
    The numbers I found went much more in the direction of 99% and even higher. Certainty over 99.9% is knowing in such a case for me, look for the numbers yourself. Ty
    Yes there are also stats that show webserver and OS, that's how Netcraft found that www.microsoft.com is protected by a Linux cloud, Header said IIS but server was Linux.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
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