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  1. Posts
    141
    ^models like those are not loaded unless they are necessary so they are just stored as space on the discs...how contradictory and clueless are you? Haircuts and clothing dont even exist until you call them..
    Unique cars could be done by replacing the duplicates (which are taking up the same memory)
    All the materials are still shared..
    Last edited by WillModelForFood; 09-25-2013 at 07:08 AM.


  2. Posts
    2,243
    Quote Originally Posted by WillModelForFood View Post
    See this is the confusion people are having in this thread. I'm not talking about higher resolution textures, higher detailed LOD's, higher draw distance, less fog, or any optimizations. You can increase all of this but its still the same world design.

    I'm talking about why wasn't the terrain designed to be more playable? Why does it feel like im walking on a background element instead of exploring a true mountainous open world region? Why are many of the buildings the same size and only 5 of them stick out making the city look very flat with no character from a sky view? Why when I set the speed of a flying vehicle 3x to what it should be am I already at the other end of the map in no time? If the map is so small, why didnt they make multiple cities and connect them instead of such a small world that thousands of people are already bored of? Why didn't they add more than 4 crappy haircuts per character and a laughable amount of bad clothing? Why did they not hire 2 extra vehicle modelers to add 10-15 more vehicles so it the traffic doesnt look so repetitive? Why do I feel like I'm walking on a mountain created by a terrain generator with minimal hand texturing or any effort in actually making it seem like you should be even standing on it ?
    All these questions I am asking have NOTHING TO DO WITH HARDWARE. FFS!


    Not trying to be negative, but have you actually work in a studio environment? You don't seem to understand the basic concept of "budget".

    This isn't about hiring 2 extra vehicle modelers, or 1 extra terrain modeler to look over things or one extra pass. They have 300 of the world's best full time artists and art directors and this is the best they can afford in the span 5 years. And I found it incredible you would think they simply finished the game without questioning their own design. What they have is what they must have gone through HUNDRED maybe even THOUSANDS of prototype, passes, playtesting, rewrites, redesigns, and this is the end result.

    They may have their own reasons to keep the outdoor environment as they are but we will never know unless they do a postmortem at Gamasutra, but I could guess maybe they just want to keep the focus on the storyline. And why didn't they make the city larger? Maybe because that's all the budget and time they were allowed and can afford? GTA San Andreas is by far the largest GTA (way larger than GTA IV) and you can clearly see they traded the resolution for detail (it takes time to create detail characters, detail terrain, detail everything you know?). Of course they can make more cities and connect them, but then they would need to put more money, hire more people, taking more time to push out GTA V, which could risk becoming a "Duke Nukem Forever" that eventually burnt out everyone involved. Most of your critiques and questions can be answer with that simple word - BUDGET.

    Like I said to you before - you can be ambitious, but if in the end you end up a "Duke Nukem Forever", its only a vaporware.



    PS. Michael O! We need your hair sample!!!!! Apparently, if we clone 10 of you, we can haz better graphics than GTA V !!!! If you don't mind donating your hair sample to us, we will create the bestest game ever!! And solve world hunger and cure cancer!!


  3. Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    1,301
    Quote Originally Posted by WillModelForFood View Post
    ^models like those are not loaded unless they are necessary so they are just stored as space on the discs...how contradictory and clueless are you? Haircuts and clothing dont even exist until you call them..
    Unique cars could be done by replacing the duplicates (which are taking up the same memory)
    All the materials are still shared..
    I wish it was that simple.
    GTA struggles enough as it is with loading stuff from the disk/harddrive. How do you suppose they "slowly" introduce this new unique car into the environment? Do they remove car and have less cars in the environment and then when all versions of that car are no longer being used, they introduce a new type of car? Do you suggest they do the same thing for hair and clothing too?

    I'm not going to go into the discussion of poly counts with their cars and if they have some that are higher poly count etc, as I have no clue how they did it, but I'm going to assume it's not as easy as "take this car out and replace it with another". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so get to it
    Last edited by Dabeh; 09-25-2013 at 07:18 AM.
    Not available for work at this time.


  4. Posts
    141
    Bawss You must be very young, why do you keep deleting your posts so you are after mine? Its annoying and childish...
    Please stop replying, you arent even reading my posts it seems. I already answered the ultimate question of WHY.

    The answer is simple Rockstar didnt care enough to, they got their huge profit without needing to. Do you recall when you were dissapointed from the 'hype' from some media? They just wanted to create something to get your money, not something that lasts. If it keeps you busy for a few days, and then an extra week or 2 with the online version, thats probably enough for them. It ultimately just doesnt seem like they cared enough to make an environment that can be played over and over for a long period of time. That is the answer my trolls


  5. Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    84
    Quote Originally Posted by WillModelForFood View Post
    ^models like those are not loaded unless they are necessary so they are just stored as space on the discs...how contradictory and clueless are you? Haircuts and clothing dont even exist until you call them..
    It has already been shown (through links in this thread to articles about installing/not installing the DVDs to the Xbox 360 etc) that GTA V is already very much at the extremes of what they can do with the streaming of content. I'm sure that simply adding more content is not a simple addition to that problem

    Quote Originally Posted by WillModelForFood View Post
    Unique cars could be done by replacing the duplicates (which are taking up the same memory)
    All the materials are still shared..
    That is not entirely how memory usage works AFAIK. Model data (vertices, normals etc) tends to be loaded into memory and then pointers to that model's data is used for every instance shown. Having 100 cars with the same base model does not use up the same amount of memory as 100 unique cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillModelForFood View Post
    The answer is simple Rockstar didnt care enough to, they got their huge profit without needing to. Do you recall when you were dissapointed from the 'hype' from some media? They just wanted to create something to get your money, not something that lasts. If it keeps you busy for a few days, and then an extra week or 2 with the online version, thats probably enough for them. It ultimately just doesnt seem like they cared enough to make an environment that can be played over and over for a long period of time. That is the answer my trolls
    Well done belittling all the hard work that the 300+ employees of Rockstar have done over the last 4+ years. 4 years is a long time to work on something and if you think that that many people would throw away their time on something they didn't care deeply about, I don't think I can continue this conversation. I need sleep anyway so I bid you a good night.
    Last edited by ScottyB; 09-25-2013 at 07:20 AM.
    Cargo Chaos - New iOS & Android game - http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/190...Australia-2013
    == A captain with telekinetic powers must load up his boat and reach harbour intact ==


  6. Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyB View Post
    That is not entirely how memory usage works AFAIK. Model data (vertices, normals etc) tends to be loaded into memory and then pointers to that model's data is used for every instance shown. Having 100 cars with the same base model does not use up the same amount of memory as 100 unique cars.
    I am aware of how batching works...we're all unity users here. The cars arent custom textured, they all share the same materials and are just 1 color. 10-15 extra car models could have been added well within the limitations. Rockstar even said they will eventually be adding more cars, clothes, models, and all kinds of extra content for online. So that there disproves your theory anyway. So we will see, maybe a year from now the online interconnected maps will have progressed to take care of what I'm complaining about.

    Lets end this thread before some of you make more of a fool of yourselves
    Last edited by WillModelForFood; 09-25-2013 at 07:23 AM.


  7. Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    84
    Quote Originally Posted by WillModelForFood View Post
    The cars arent custom textured, they all share the same materials and are just 1 color. 10-15 extra car models could have been added well within the limitations.
    Wow. Just wow.

    We are not the ones making fools of ourselves and you don't seem like you think you need to learn anything and know everything about how and why Rockstar did what they did so I'm out.
    Cargo Chaos - New iOS & Android game - http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/190...Australia-2013
    == A captain with telekinetic powers must load up his boat and reach harbour intact ==


  8. Posts
    2,243
    Quote Originally Posted by WillModelForFood View Post
    Lets end this thread before some of you make more of a fool of yourselves

    Alright, you win. We are all clueless idiots here and you are awesome, better than all of us and 1000 Rockstar artists combined.

    I for one will be eagerly awaiting your GTA V beating sandbox game.


  9. Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyB View Post
    Wow. Just wow.

    We are not the ones making fools of ourselves and you don't seem like you think you need to learn anything and know everything about how and why Rockstar did what they did so I'm out.
    Huh? You just told me "GTA V is already very much at the extremes of what they can do with the streaming of content."
    But yet rockstar plans on adding a TON of extra content for online.
    And then you don't even post an actual technical response? Just "I'm out" ?


  10. Location
    Hamburg / Germany
    Posts
    598
    Streaming from disc/hdd and streaming from their servers are different things, wouldn't you agree?


  11. Posts
    141
    The extra content will still be downloaded to your consoles hard drive and streamed from where it already is being streamed from. This isnt second life. You really think the extra whole maps they are planning will be loaded from the cloud?? You are the one in the clouds..I doubt vehicles / clothing / props will be either
    And with this realization maybe we are also discovering that the streaming excuse was just that, an excuse, a reason to make up for the lack of content that should have been there at launch.

    "Hi we are rockstar and we can't add any more content because we are already pushing our streaming limits, but heres another whole dvd full of content a few months later anyway that will be downloaded to the same spot, magic."
    Last edited by WillModelForFood; 09-25-2013 at 08:05 AM.


  12. Location
    Boston, Ma
    Posts
    2,437
    @WillModelForFood I think you should change your name to WillModelForKnowledge, because there are guys in here who HAVE actually worked with consoles and KNOW the inherently inevitable limitations on them (the most obvious ones being age and hardware restrictions). Now a game like GTA 5 or any open world game, it takes a LONG time to get them to be this populated... I have been playing through the game and exploring the world in it, especially the desert. Do I know it looks limited? Yes... Am I aware that the textures are not crisp on some of the in engine assets? VERY aware. Do I care? NO! I don't even care about the number of repeat vehicles in the game, or how small the buildings feel... NO DEVELOPER is gonna traverse an ENTIRE state to get things accurate like that... IT COSTS MONEY.

    I am working on my own game right now, and I wouldn't even DARE make a game like GTA 5 without a dedicated team. The work that I am doing, it would take over 50 people to work on it if I had my own company, but I am learning, which is something we ALL should be doing each time. I'm a perfectionist, but I do have to move on to other aspects of the game development.

    Rockstar is among the best of the best... veterans, in their craft. I actually admire these guys because of the meticulous detail that is in their work! I get more impressed every time I play RDR or GTA5. it is like the old doctrine, "Work with what you got...with the time you are given." And belittling them is borderline disrespectful, considering you have not shown any of your work or proved your work quality. And not to insult you or anything, but I saw an image posted earlier of something you made, and I was not thrilled. For some who wants to nitpick, you should spend time improving your work, learning new techniques, and unfolding skills for making a game.


  13. Location
    Champaign, IL
    Posts
    64
    @WillModelForFood Have you ever worked on a current gen console game? No? Then stop, you don't know how it works.


    That being said...GTAV was quite an accomplishment on current gen hardware.
    Last edited by gsokol; 09-25-2013 at 08:38 AM. Reason: worded my response to sound nicer


  14. Location
    Boston, Ma
    Posts
    2,437
    Quote Originally Posted by gsokol View Post
    @WillModelForFood Have you ever worked on a current gen console game? No? Then stop, you don't know how it works.


    That being said...GTAV was quite an accomplishment on current gen hardware.
    This.


  15. Posts
    2,243
    Where is Farfarer when you need him......


  16. Posts
    141
    I dont understand why you are thinking that I dont agree that it is impressive that its running on current gen consoles. I must have said multiple times I am not arguing this. But the responses as to why my suggestions couldnt be done are technically just not true. No one has really told me why exactly the terrain wasnt hand modeled more in certain areas instead of feeling like your standing on a background prop. Thats just one issue.

    You guys are just not getting it, do you not read threads or what? We are just repeating ourselves at this point.

    Technically, it is an achievement. Visually, its not stimulating enough. Especially the outdoor area. And for the last time, this is not a hardware limitation! They will even be adding more content! Do you want another answer from me since none of you are supplying one?
    Mountainous outdoor terrain is obviously not rockstars strong point. They put in terrain thats good from a distant view, and flying over, but to actually play on it, they didn't put in enough work in that regard. They literally lacked 1 extra artist that should have said "you know what this area doesn't really feel playable. I dont feel like I should be walking here". "Not a problem, lets get our terrain artist to add in some trails and sculpt in some areas to make it more interesting and add some rocks in a way to be more immersing. We can use assets that are already in the game too, just place some here, here.." "Whats that? The console is about to combust in flames because we threw a couple extra poly's at it? Well just remove / optimize that other unnecessary area a bit more"

    I'm not saying to make the terrain look extremely realistic like cryengine can handle. I'm saying gameplay design wise, it has no features to really be a combat area. It doesnt require much more memory or anything, things like this are very minor technically. That is the whole point of my discussion. These are minor things technically that have a big impact visually.
    Last edited by WillModelForFood; 09-25-2013 at 09:00 AM.


  17. Location
    Boston, Ma
    Posts
    2,437
    Quote Originally Posted by I am da bawss View Post
    Where is Farfarer when you need him......

    Probably tinkering with Python, or building some kick ass tools.


  18. Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    1,301
    Quote Originally Posted by I am da bawss View Post
    Where is Farfarer when you need him......
    I would be offended by this thread if I was him.
    Not available for work at this time.


  19. Location
    Champaign, IL
    Posts
    64
    I was specifically referring you you trying to explain streaming or why assets look low poly etc. You seem to bounce back and forth between the technical part and the art part a bit, so I'm not sure which point you are actually arguing. Your first post was "I can make higher quality terrain in world machine, why doesn't it look like this in GTAV." Also, basing off the title of the thread...I would assume that was your initial argument.

    As far as why it doesn't seem "playable" seems to me like thats a design choice. They focused the majority of gameplay in the city and the small surrounding areas...so the area in between largely serves as a means to get between them for the most part. Could they have done more to make the terrain tied more to gameplay? Maybe, but that is a different point altogether.


  20. Posts
    141
    Not bouncing, just being polite and not ignoring the technical people that are chiming in. I want to reply to everyone, the thread doesnt really get thrown off course because its all tied together.

    And "Could they have done more to make the terrain tied more to gameplay" is not a different point. That is my main point.

    Yes they could have, but they didnt need to. For the 10th time. They could have done everything I suggested well within the limits. I said this a few pages back. They simply didnt need to. Was there a point where someone said, "Hey I don't think this area is good enough to play on, but its inviting me to climb on it. Can we sculpt in some more trails and throw in some rocks that are already in the game to make it more appealing to actually have places to take cover and run through"?
    Yes I'm sure several artists said it. But what was their response?
    Well we could....
    But why should we? This will not make or break our sales, no one is going to withhold from buying the game because the terrain wasnt good enough. 99% of people will be happy and impressed just with what they even got. (It will probably take a few weeks longer for most people to realize it once they start engaging in battle in the country side online)
    So they didn't. If only they had someone who was really encouraging about it, and made it a bigger deal, which is what I think they needed. But they didnt have that person or just didn't wan't to.
    End of story. Close the thread
    Last edited by WillModelForFood; 09-25-2013 at 10:05 AM.

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