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The answer to every 'Can it be done?' and 'I've lost my way' post.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Gigiwoo, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. landon912

    landon912

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  2. CaptCanada

    CaptCanada

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    Well, I've finished my game, such as it is. It was completed around November 25th and is on IndieDB. I'm going to add the download link very soon. I'd say it took about 4-5 weeks to finish, off and on.

    Here is the link
    http://www.indiedb.com/games/dont-go-into-the-woods
     
  3. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Don't be. The length of the project isn't particularly important, what matters is getting something done. Hitting deadlines is great, but don't beat yourself up too much about missing one. Just doing this project and reflecting on it afterwards will hep you hit the next one.

    Popping in here again reminds me that I promised screenies of my current project...
     
  4. Adrianis

    Adrianis

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    Just about to hit week 7 of 12!
    Got this going, and pretty much finished with the project. Now I gotta decide whether to spend a few more weeks making it look slightly more pretty since I have some to 'spare', or slap a DONE sticker on it and move on
    It's an awesome challenge, really makes you focus on just what matters - not getting bogged down in pointless features - it's been super helpful
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  5. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    @Landon, Adrianis, and CaptCanada - You chose the right path, and now, you have a product to show the world! Fan-Fricking-Tastic!!! Take a moment to bask in the glory of your release. You succeeded, whereas those who went left are still posting idea threads. Savor the moment! And when you're ready, learn from the successes and the failures, roll up your sleeves, and set a date for your next product.

    Gigi.
     
  6. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I'd suggest giving the polish stage a go, if nothing else to see what it's like. Also, if I may suggest, do it based on player feedback. The bits that you think could be polished up might not be the bits gamers care about.

    (Edit: Just watched some of the video, that's awesome. It's one of those ideas that makes you wish you'd thought it up.)

    But still do what Gigi says, too. ;)
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  7. Adrianis

    Adrianis

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    Well said, that line alone pretty much convinces me. Polishing anything other than code is not something I've done before. In fact, anything but code is not something I've done before, and I need the experience if for nothing else than to see what it's like :) Thanks for the compliment

    I've had some good feedback from a friend (and indeed the suggestions/requests were not what I was expecting), but still not quite enough, I'm gonna finish this thing now, and get as much feedback as possible (and bask in the glory, on Gigis advice). I've got another (short) project planned which should hopefully be starting soon, once that's through, I think I'll revisit this and spend a few weeks working on presentation.

    I'm finding it pretty difficult to get any detailed feedback from people at the moment. This isn't really the place but, can you guys suggest any way / where in particular for getting people to talk more about what they think / give more detailed feedback? Or is it just, pester people for it...
     
  8. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Feedback is crucial - and hard to get. Honest, worthwhile feedback even more so. And there's no special way to find testers. Grab friends, peers, people you consider 'customers', anyone you can, any way that you can. Let them play without explanations, without apologies, and without defending anything. Say nothing except the title - then watch them experience your product. You'll learn 90% of what you need to know.

    Look for when they: become distracted, get stuck, look bored, or start talking to you. All are opportunities for improvement.

    PS - Studies have shown 5 testers is sufficient to find the vast majority of issues. And, generally, each tester is only good for one test run - don't waste them.

    Gigi
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  9. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I took my last game (in my sig) to a trade show for 4* years running, and rather than asking for feedback I watched for it. I also took it to local developer gatherings and did the same.

    People are generally polite when you ask them for things (except when it's via the Internet, where this is inverted except in development communities), but when you watch how they react to your game you can tell a bucketload from the expression on their face, their responses, when they stop playing, and so on. Make sure you know who your target audience is, show the game to them over and over again, and tune their responses until a) they keep playing and b) give the responses you want to the parts of the game where you want them. I guess this is essentially "unconscious feedback".

    While it's still good, I don't find "conscious feedback" to be as useful in game development. A few weeks ago I read a quote somewhere on these forums which summed up the reason perfectly, along the lines of "the client asked for a bigger antenna, but what he actually wanted was improved reception". What people ask for isn't necessarily what will improve their experience the most, and you've always got to decipher conscious feedback to figure out what thing caused them to make a particular comment and what it is about it that could use improvement.

    For instance, I got feedback in Master Thief all the time from people saying that he needed to be able to run. At first I brushed that off every time - "nah, if he can run there'll be zero challenge". (This always led to "but if the guards can hear you then they should follow you" which, if followed, would have led to epic scope creep, and also a direct recreation of existing stealth games.) But eventually I asked myself "is there another way I can satisfy the underlying want?" That led to the very simple addition of the dash feature, which added little development complexity and yet added so much to the game.

    * Don't take me as a counter-example to the short-deadline approach. I do short, complete projects at work all the time, so I don't so much feel the need to apply the same to my hobby.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  10. Adrianis

    Adrianis

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    Thanks guys that's really useful advice. I feel a bit weird about asking my friends to play while I watch them and without telling them anything, but it seems like that's essential so I'll have to get over that feeling :)
     
  11. padomu

    padomu

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    I accept

    Little more info:

    I'm new to Unity but I can code. Will post again if I'm finished wit hmy crappy thing!
     
  12. Matt1988

    Matt1988

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    I accept
    I will be done (hopefully) on or before: Wednesday, March 5, 2014
     
  13. ChrisSch

    ChrisSch

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    I'm already about two weeks in but I accept. :)
     
  14. dterbeest

    dterbeest

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    This thread has got me thinking good. I am a long-time believer of the left path.. but i just start to feel it is an impossible path to follow.
    I feel rather sad that this realisation has just dawned on me, but on the other hand i feel motivated to start a small project and take on the GiGi challenge (should we make this a well-known thing? the GiGi challenge has a kind of swagger about it :p )

    I will not start the GiGi challenge right away though, i need to find someone to help me on the art department first (i have all the artistical talents of a doorknob...)

    Very interesting read and thanks for the insights!
     
  15. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Remember that scene in the Matrix, where Neo is trying to bend the spoon with his mind? The little kid-hopeful tells Neo, "Don't try to bend the spoon - that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize, there is no spoon."

    Similarly, don't try to find a perfect artist-partner. Instead, try to imagine what you could build without any artist at all. Lines, boxes, particle effects, space backdrop, simple textures, ... Build what you can, by yourself (ex. SuperHexagon). Else, a year from now, you may find yourself facing another sad realization.

    Gigi.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  16. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I agree entirely that you shouldn't try to find perfection. But I don't agree with the idea that you should necessarily go it alone. Flying solo has advantages, but team mates are incredible, especially when they have complementary skills.

    I'll have experience with complete projects with both approaches in the hopefully-not-too-distant future. I started a project a few weeks ago with the express intention of seeing what I could do if one of my constraints was doing it all myself.

    It's been interesting, and having worked extensively with teams in the past I've been constantly tempted to invite others on board because I miss the vibrance they bring. (In fact, I *have* invited someone on board to help with some 2D art, though I'm tempted to keep that to an upgrade pass after I've otherwise completed the project and reached my goal.) On the other hand, keeping it to just yourself allows a kind of purity and freedom of design and implementation that's refreshing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  17. Adrianis

    Adrianis

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    @angrypenguin: I think the point was more that you shouldn't hold off on working on a project because you don't have [X] that you feel you need to complete it. I know personally, that exact situation (needing an artist) stopped me progressing in any real way for a long time. If you just accept the limitation and work within it, you can still produce quality content. Not to mention, it'll be much easier finding an artist who will work with you if you have a project to show, instead of the promise of one, and most developers will be able to see past bad art to see the potential of a great mechanic
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  18. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    ^ this! +1. Like.
    Gigi
     
  19. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Absolutely. I just wanted to throw in that you shouldn't not try to work with an artist, or other coders, or a writer, or whatever other skills may complement or build upon your own. Imagine what you can do without them, yes. But also imagine what you could do with them.
     
  20. Adrianis

    Adrianis

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    Ah yeh, totally agree, well said
     
  21. OpenGLShaders

    OpenGLShaders

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  22. dterbeest

    dterbeest

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    Well. I did it. Not really the GiGi challenge, but I went for the ludum dare which was this weekend and my submission (aka first game) is being uploaded as we speak! I feel really proud of myself and hope to continue this momentum. * My plans for the short future are to find an artist to work with and start creating small games. I would like to get one or two finished before the next ludum dare (april). * Thanks for motivating me! I willmake a separate thread about my ludum adventure later (now I really need to sleep)
     
  23. Word

    Word

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    I accept, but it will be a book. Not a video game. I will write it in 3 days, illustrate it in 3, then get famous and ultra rich, then pay some guys to make it a video game. It will revolutionize everything.
     
  24. Wind waker

    Wind waker

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    I'll write my question here, because it's so beginner-oriented.

    In what order would I go learning game programming? Putting audiovisuals aside, a person starting to create games needs to know computer science, math and statistics. Would it be beneficial e.g to know calculus in advance before delving into computer science, because it's quite an integral part or would it be possible to mix match learning them?
     
  25. Adrianis

    Adrianis

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    Not really the right place for this question but, I'll answer anyway :) You'll get a lot more useful varied opinions if you post a thread in the 'Unity Gossip' subforum, or better yet do a search on the forum and read some of the previous advice threads.
    I feel like I should say I didn't start programming game development until well after I had left school started working, so my answers are entirely the result of that background, keep that in mind.

    All you *need* to know for games programming is programming. I've never studied computer science, my maths knowledge is next to none (I honestly don't know what calculus even is) and consequently, my knowledge of statistics is also probably pretty low. This puts me in a good position to know that all that stuff would be useful, but none of it is necessary for gameplay programming specifically. Low level graphics engine programming is a different story, so if you want to do that, you can safely ignore what I say.

    Depending on how you do your learning (i.e. at school, or personally) makes a difference as to whether mixing matching is a good idea.

    If your in school looking to do a computer science course, then you should discuss with the provider what requirements they have - i.e. whether you need to know calculus first, and the best path forward for your education.

    But, if your learning it all yourself, my personal (and entirely biased) advice would be to delve straight into programming - the only thing I would say is important (but still not essential) to know before you start gameplay programming, is general programming. Gameplay programming is a subset, or specialization of programming, and there's a lot of useful knowledge you would miss if you only ever did gameplay programming. Everything about the other loosely associated topics can be learned as-and-when you need them, so if you know what you want to do, then start doing it.
    If you spend 3 years doing gameplay programming, I guarantee you'll be a better gameplay programmer than if you spent 2.5 years learning advanced maths computer science 0.5 doing gameplay programming
     
  26. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Pre-requisites are not an excuse. Learn C#. Watch Unity tutorials. Build something. It's a lifetime of learning, so roll up yer sleeves and start. (PS Adrianis is right though, there are better threads)

    Gigi
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
  27. Wind waker

    Wind waker

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    Short and to the point. I like that! Thanks Adrianis and Gigiwoo =)

    I'll just start coding and see what else I need to come up with while I do that. I ordered one cs-book called 'practical programming'. After learning Python, which the book teaches with, I'll jump to C#.
     
  28. thamolas

    thamolas

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    I'm a long-time lurker on these forums, but I have to chime in on this thread. I read the entire thread tonight and I have to say that it's really inspiring. Thanks a lot for all the good vibes and encouragement.

    I accept the challenge. March 26,2014.

    Since before the internet, I've been a quiet hobbyist with more programming experience than anything else. I've completed many small apps and games over the years, but I've never shared any of them. While reading this thread I got an idea for a fairly simple comedy/shooter that I should be able to finish by June and I want to share it. wish me luck. ;9)
     
  29. eskimojoe

    eskimojoe

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    I paraphrased GigiWoo's first post to:


    You are hit by a Magic confusion missile!
    You are confused. You struggle to find your way.


    (Insert disk 'Conversation A' and press any key to continue).

    You turn left,


    You've arrived! You see the infamous fork on the road and there is an eskimo near the sign-post.

    You read the sign-post.

    It says:
    - Turn left to the primrose path. You will find riches, success and roads that glisters with gold. You hear music and what looks like some shiny golden thing far way, coming from the left path.

    - Turn right to the path of humility and poorness. You see a small pathway leading down the small tavern near-by where you can spend your nights and the paths require you work hard and travel in teams.


    You think to yourself...

    Take the left path... Easy money, easy riches if I turn left. I'll make an MMO or Skyrim clone in no time! I'll be rich! I'll have the fame and fortune I want!

    Take the right path... The work is very hard, I'll have to spend days practicing, I'll have to spend lots of time perfecting my craft. I'll have to spend lots and lots of time learning and lots of time making models, code or artwork! I'll have to work in a team to make it! This is too much work and I don't want to work so hard for money...


    You inquire of an Eskimo which path to take. The eskimo tells... something... and you ignore it.


    Being fool-hardy, you take the left path. As you travel down that road, time passes, something happens... the glimmer at the end of the road was just the sunset into a dark forest. You ask a passer-by, he says that this path will take a couple of years, if you are 24 now, you will be 28 when you exit.

    In the dark forest, you find the place booby-trapped. Trying to cross the muddy river was a bit harder than you think it was. You go down the river and try to find a crossing or bridge. There is none.

    As you progress further into the dark woods, you get more and more lost. You meet people who have no experience and want to fleece you of your money, doing the same thing - they themselves are lost and trying to loot hapless passer-bys for their sources+artwork so they can try to get ahead.


    You find yourself randomly attacked by thieves, since they are also lost and take advantage of the people travelling this path. You meet people who tell you pitiful tales as they try to lighten your purse-strings...

    As the days turn to weeks, the weeks turn into months, the months turn into years, you find yourself going in circles, attempting to find your way.


    Your money-supply begins to dwindle and you have problems trying to get food and water to survive. You eventually run out of money, admit defeat and either give-up or go into debt to continue.

    As you become confused, you being to attack the forum moderators, you get banned from many game forums (not just this forum).


    As time passes, you find yourself unable to learn, unable to watch tutorials, unable to find 'sponsors' or 'publishers' who may lighten your burden.

    You see 'idea guys' who do nothing - do not contribute any money, want you to work like a slave and terminate you when you ask for a drop of water. They come on the forum to trumpet some grandiose MMO picture, artwork or model, claiming credit for other people's work done. Eventually, they too, will fail.


    Once in a blue moon, you find a well equipped caravan passing by, maybe a dog-sled team led by eskimos or company of heroes.... You ask for help, they cannot stop and help; they only have enough supplies to reach end of the dark forest. You are floored and flabbergasted that they leave you behind to the misery you are in...


    ------------------
    Another person passes by the infamous fork. The sun is setting and temperatures are going to drop. There is a near-by tavern where the person can rest at the night. On the tavern, it says: 'Finish something in 9 weeks' and 'practice, learn. Start small, do small projects.


    There, the person find some people who practice their art every day, they practice their coding, and gain skills. This path is full of hard work... After few months of work, the person finishes the project! Others admire it and offer advice to improve.

    Heh, the person think to himself..., this is easy! If I make more of things like that, I'll get enough money, supplies and equipment to tackle the dark forest!


    Often, the person would think of entering the dark forest, but it was the same - failure or getting lost or too difficult...


    Think of yourself, 10 months from now, which path did you take?


    ------------------
    Two decades pass. It is coming to 2033... After learning all the secrets of how to survive the dark forest, the person is now coming to 40's, gathers a team of expert developers, expert artists and expert modellers and starts to go down the dark forest in a well-equipped caravan...
     
  30. eskimojoe

    eskimojoe

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    We are releasing 5 new Unity plugins in the coming Jan 2014 time :)


    Rather than do multi-month long projects, scaling it down to mini-2 months project seems to be better and more manageable. :)
     
  31. covcomm

    covcomm

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    "Thinking of yourself, 10 months from now. Which path did you take?"

    My first game, "Queen Of Rage" took 10 months to complete. I took the "left" path because I'm not to fond of small projects. I heard the same small projects advice and went out of my way to go in the opposite direction. Now that I've a got a huge 40 level platformer under my belt, I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how people actually got small, 1 screen, gaming experiences like Angry Birds and Cut the Rope to actually deliver as much fun as they do.

    They are both really incredible examples of gameplay design.
     
  32. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    To jump in as a devil's advocate there, while it's certainly not a black and white matter, a 10 month game isn't what I'd call the "left path". Sure it's not a 12 week shortie, but at the same time it's hardly a 5 year epic.

    Out of interest, how long did you think it would take when you started?
     
  33. thamolas

    thamolas

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    Update: I've got a lot of artwork with some models and menus/GUI stuff, a character controller without a HUD (but the art for the HUD), most of the game physics and logic (aside from the AI), some sounds, some splats, some video, etc. The AI is in progress: my creatures wander and sniff around and die when shot (though I still have to make ragdolls). Mainly what's left is for the AIs to sense and engage (or flee from) the player, though I want to make some special AI for the "bosses". After the AI, I have to create the HUD, better flesh out the scoring system, add art/sounds to objects, and polish/test my way to the 12 week mark.

    Hey, this is a really fun challenge. In the back of my mind, I'm already thinking about the next game or two. My wife thinks I'm nuts, but she wants to be the first one to play it. :p
     
  34. TheValar

    TheValar

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    I guess I sort of took on this challenge without realizing it. I decided I wanted to do a simple game without a ton of levels and features that I could complete in a short amount of time.

    I went with a pretty basic endless runner that has actually done half decent. "All About Android: The Game"

    I think shorter projects are great especially when you're new. At least for me when I don't know what I'm doing I do anything to get it to work and end up with some less than perfect code. This isn't a huge deal on a small project and then I know how to handle it better in the future.
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  35. Ian094

    Ian094

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    Woohoo! My first game is finally out there! It got approved today :D

    I accepted this challenge roughly 2 months ago it looks like i took the right path :)

    Here's a link to my game :

    http://slideme.org/application/man-mission

    Pushing it to more app stores soon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
  36. thamolas

    thamolas

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    Congrats! I hope it feels good!

    I wish I could try it out. Don't have a smart phone.
     
  37. Ian094

    Ian094

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    It feels great. Thanks for the support.
     
  38. thamolas

    thamolas

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    Your game looks hilarious!
     
  39. TheValar

    TheValar

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    Thanks!
     
  40. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    It's been nearly 10 months since I started my current project. I never forsaw cutting as much as I did, blowing a few deadlines, and losing the will to work twice. 10 months is a long time. Do not underestimate time itself.

    My game started off as a 15-minute mini-Action RPG. It's now a 15-30 minute game, depending on how much exploration you want to do.
     
  41. katula

    katula

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    interesting read
     
  42. thamolas

    thamolas

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    My HUD is 75% done (I have a few mismatched variables to fix heh), ditto with the scoring system. I have a solid AI framework now and a pathfinding system (though I still have to work on boss stuff). I built a level for initial pre-playtesting and have been adding props and such to the pool.

    For the first level, I have all the ragdolls done along with spawn areas and waypoints. The AIs are placed and the terrain is done. When the HUD and scoring system are ready, I'll try a playtest in a week or 2 and see how it goes. If it goes well, I'll make a video and you can see my progress. :)
     
  43. BlackPanda

    BlackPanda

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    Challenge accepted! :)
     
  44. SVGK

    SVGK

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    lucky for me, i saw this thread before choosing a path, i'm going right.

    I accept the Gigi challenge.
     
  45. eskimojoe

    eskimojoe

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    Submitted to asset store 1st one - yesterday. Going to submit next one within this week.
     
  46. thamolas

    thamolas

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    Project Update: Have a few comrades playtesting a 1 level Alpha demo of my game. AFAIK, all of the mechanics are done and all that's left is level building, adding more one-off sounds, high scores and options screens, polish, and continued testing/bug hunting.
     
  47. thamolas

    thamolas

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    What kind of game are you making?
     
  48. ara12

    ara12

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    wish could do something 'bout mine..
     
  49. thamolas

    thamolas

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    what do you mean?
     
  50. cgarossi

    cgarossi

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    I accept.

    Admittedly I have a slight head start, about a week but I accept nonetheless.

    It's my first Unity project

    My target date is Monday 12th May 2014.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2014