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View Poll Results: Was there anything wrong with Paper Pilot relying almost ocmpletely on Unity assets and level layout

Voters
90. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, definately.

    46 51.11%
  • Not Sure. Maybe.

    8 8.89%
  • No, not at all.

    36 40.00%
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Results 1 to 20 of 49

  1. Location
    Provo, UT
    Posts
    16

    Paper Pilot using too many Unity Assets?

    Clever Coding put "Paper Pilot" on the app store yesterday (Jan 13, 2009), made with Unity: http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...301639092&mt=8

    However, they drew critisism from some other forum members in the thread for announcing new games: http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.p...=asc&start=105

    Clever Coding took their levels from Unity example projects, adding little of their own assets (the plane, paperclips and some light menuing art).

    Legally, they didn't do anything wrong. (As per their EULA, Unity is properly credited on Clever Cloding's website: http://www.paperpilot.clevercoding.com/, in the game and now on iTunes.) So when does cheap ($) production become cheap ("quit doing that move over and over!") production?
    Ontario Britton
    iPhone Developer


  2. Location
    Melbourne, Australlia
    Posts
    10
    I think it's poor form. Nothing legally wrong like you said, but just a lazy effort. But as you can see in the forums and especially in the big wide world, it's takes all sorts of people to make the world go round. Some of them will take a very generous license agreement and try and turn it in dollars.

    I wouldn't be proud of it, but that's just my opinion. In the end they can do what they want and I'll just keep working away on MY game and be extra proud when it finally gets out there.


  3. Location
    Hamburg, Germany
    Posts
    1,373
    I don't see a problem there personally. UT allows to use the assets as long as it's a Unity made game and to be honest, damn he was clever I think. Great game & featured on iTunes (at least here in Germany).

    Hey, on the other side - now Oniatariio made enough money to hire one of the great artists here from the forums for the next projects!

    Of course, everyone sees this different and it can lead to endless discussions, but in the end, another great Unity game, great advertisement for Unity itself, a developer who is maybe a bit closer to his indy dream if not already. All good!
    Latest release: RC Mini Racers.


  4. Location
    Austria, Europe
    Posts
    555
    Well, I clicked the link, saw that the screenshots show nothing but unity examples (funny enough the warehouse seems to have had some furniture removed, but the baked-in shadows are still there) and that the reviewers all cheered about the great graphics. So I though to myself: that's a bit cheeky... Especially since he he mentions "gorgeous 3D levels" in the text, but doesn't mention that he didn't actually make them... Well, he added a notice now, at the bottom, saying that they're from the "asset library" that comes with unity...

    So all good, right? No need for a bad conscience, right? Impudence wins and once the money starts rolling in... well, money justifies everything anyway...

    Like my grandfather used to say: No one's ever gotten rich by working...
    Thanks for reminding me, I just don't seem to get that lesson...

    PS: Sorry for posting in the other thread - I'm usually the first one who gets annoyed when someone posts something off-topic in there... Just couldn't help it and had to show my contempt... Evil prevails when good men fail to complain... or something like that...
    Games: BLACKISH | Assets: GameAssets.net | Blog | Twitter: col000r


  5. Location
    Hamburg, Germany
    Posts
    1,373
    I see your points and understand them. And no, money does not justify everything.

    But I think this one here just might be a bit of a border case. UT allows to use the gfx and he did exactly that. He used the art for his game. And he maximized the use of the iPhone asset art. Nothing wrong. He even mentioned that it is out of the asset library (even if afterwards added).

    So morally you might say yeah, he sells other people's art in his game, but hey, those guys allowed that. It helps them too to some extend.

    As I said, endless discussion might get born out of this... and I'm on both sides here. Morally yes, might be a bit strange, on the other hand, a well made game with a great look. Done by him and Untiy...

    Peace!
    (before I get flamed)
    Latest release: RC Mini Racers.

  6. Keyboard operator

    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    2,929
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Schultz
    (before I get flamed)
    I'll take the heat then :P

    I don't see anything wrong with it - he read the license and used it to its fullest. If he makes some money on that then kudos - cleverly done. Why all this negativity just because you didn't think of it first?

    Its not like he is taking over the market or anything (by the way when do we see a shooter in the unity environments?).
    Emil "AngryAnt" Johansen

    Game developer, AI specialist, Unity expert
    Freelancer, ex Unity Technologies

    AI in Unity, tips and tricks: http://angryant.com, http://twitter.com/angryant

    Coding bare-footed grants you extra CPU cycles!


    Want to play? http://angryant.com/freelance/
    Behave 2 is out! http://angryant.com/2013/12/23/Behave-2-2/
    Check out ReView!


  7. Location
    Melbourne, Australlia
    Posts
    10
    Don't worry Martin, no flaming here, just good robust discussion.

    I guess it would be nice for people to raise the bar a bit. Seeing this and the rampant use of the standard unity GUI look is just a little disheartening, that's all.

    AngryAnt - Just saw your post, it's not because we didn't think of it first, I'm sure a good number of people thought of it the second the examples came out, I know I did. It's more the principle of the thing. But if philosophy has taught me anything it's that morality is just a big pile of subjectivism and that clever coding obviously doesn't share mine, which is fine....

    And as Martin said there could be endless discussion over this so it's probably best for me to bow out and get on with the real stuff.

    Cheers

    Michael


  8. Location
    Austria, Europe
    Posts
    555
    no flaming here either, sorry.

    Plain and simple: Anyone who tries to sell other people's work without a substantial contribution of his own earns my contempt. No matter how legally unproblematic it might be...

    If you can live with being an impostor, go ahead. - But I'm not gonna be your friend.

  9. Administrator
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    1,586
    The way I see it; we made those assets to be used. The more people use them, the happier I am. We want people to do stuff like this.

    Normally, people take the Unity code and add content on top to create a game. Here somebody took Unity graphics as well. The whole idea of Unity is to get help to make your games. Normally, this help is in the form of a well-written runtime & authoring environment.

    To me, expecting that everybody should make all their art themselves is the same as expecting that everybody should write their own engine. Let's try to rise above the notion of "you have to create it yourself". Let's rather look at the games for their own merit. If somebody can create a great game using stock art, that's still a great game - and to me that is what matters.

    Cheers
    Mathematicians that only do calculations that we already know about and are comfortable with? They're called accountants, and they have no friends.


  10. Location
    Austria, Europe
    Posts
    555
    Seems you unearthed a flaw in my narcissistic scheme. - I really should write my own engine...

    Well, truth is: i couldn't. Games are complex, if there's tools to help you realize your creative vision: use them. It's like Paul Feyerabend said: Intelligent people are opportunists - they don't stick to a certain dogmatic way of doing things, they do what yields the best results.

    So for my first game as an Indie I used this wonderful, preexisting tool "unity", I even used a preexisting set of rules. Why is no one accusing me of ripping off unity or the unknown inventors of curling? For the same reason that no one is accusing Unity Technologies of ripping off Mono and PhysiX - because a substantial amount of work and creativity has gone into the new product and it transcends what was there before.

    I'm not trying to be a moral authority, I'm not trying to draw a line and say: You have to invest X hours and create Y percent of the assets before you can call it your game. We're all happy to use a script from the wiki, to get advice from the forums or to use a texture from a texture pack. - Then why do I and many others feel that what he did was wrong?

    I think it has to do with decency and the creative spirit. (I'm a dreamer, I know... proud of it too)

    So taking the gameplay of one demo and mixing it with the graphics of 3 others just doesn't cut it in my book. It makes me sad. Makes me believe that my idealistic, creative world really does end at the doorstep.

    Nicholas, you said it. - "The whole idea of Unity is to get help to make your games." - Your games - there's creativity and self-fulfillment in there...

    I'm expecting the Paper-Plane-game to sell well and if that helps to spread the word about unity - good for you and in the end also good for me! More sales might mean more money goes into the tools and engine. I'm not saying "burn 'em", I'm just saying that I wouldn't want it that way.


  11. Location
    Palma de Mallorca - Spain
    Posts
    566
    Of course, nothing stops nobody here to also take the same Unity Assets and scenes and use them for another little variation, or even two... And then selling them also in Itunes... Interesting where all this can go...


  12. Location
    Middletown NY
    Posts
    184

    I think there was nothing wrong with it.

    I think it is not to creative nor technically impressive. But they had the right to make the choose they did.

    However, what if the game sells well? What is going to stop me from taking the same exact game and make it a little better and sell it on iTunes? Technically I am not infringing on copyright if I cite the same sources they did since the content is nonexclusive, and I make a better GUI.

    Would I actually do what I stated above? Heck no, I am more creative and technical then the person that published this game, and I think that is what bothers everyone.

    But Kudos to them if they make a quick buck, at the cost of respect in our community. A choice that might be more costly then the few bucks they make on this game in the long run.

    For example:
    Will I be quick to help them out in the forums? Will I wondering if I provide them with some examples will they use it in their next game if I do not disclose the usage rights?

    Who knows?

    Glad to see Unity iPhone is making another splash in the iTunes Store.


  13. Location
    Hamburg, Germany
    Posts
    1,373
    ... at the cost of respect in our community
    But it's not the community that made the gfx he used, it was made by Unity. And those gave permission to use it, wait, they are even happier the more it gets used!

    Will I be quick to help them out in the forums?
    I will!

    As I promised... endless discussions...
    Latest release: RC Mini Racers.


  14. Location
    Middletown NY
    Posts
    184

    Like I sad. They did nothing wrong.

    Martin,

    Kudos to them, I am on the fence like you.


  15. Posts
    414
    Now that will remind me to read ALL the thread before I poll a vote in future.

    My initial reaction was there was nothing wrong with this premise, but thats when I thought it meant by only using Unity primitve assets such as cubes and planes etc, not by using the Unity DEMO artwork - !!!!

    I trust Unity will be sending an invoice lol - I know I WON't be supporting these chaos with my money.

  16. Keyboard operator

    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    2,929
    Peter:
    I the reaction of you and others, but overly simplified there is absolutely no difference license-wise between putting the 3D assets used here, which were provided by unity, into a game and putting primitives created in unity into the same game.

    In comparison - what about games and productions being sold only using completely unmodified scripts from the standard assets and tutorials? Should the creators of those also be burned on the fire of righteousness?

    Finally - if you answered yes to the question above, does that mean that you value my work as a programmer less than the work of artists?
    Emil "AngryAnt" Johansen

    Game developer, AI specialist, Unity expert
    Freelancer, ex Unity Technologies

    AI in Unity, tips and tricks: http://angryant.com, http://twitter.com/angryant

    Coding bare-footed grants you extra CPU cycles!


    Want to play? http://angryant.com/freelance/
    Behave 2 is out! http://angryant.com/2013/12/23/Behave-2-2/
    Check out ReView!


  17. Location
    Austria, Europe
    Posts
    555
    no one should be burnt at the stake. (the offending parties should know what's honorable and take the appropriate steps themselves...)

    Personally I value everyone's work equally much, no matter what field they're in, IF (now comes the important part) IF they show creative effort and try to bring something new to the table.

    A thought of a nice metaphor: Imagine you're a baker and you and your circle of baker-friends all get a free cake from the manufacturer of the ovens that you all use. Now you would expect everyone to take a slice, enjoy it, maybe some would take out their mobile labs and analyze the chemical composition of the cake as inspiration for their own future creations. But what you wouldn't expect someone to do (and what would certainly appear as blunt and bad behavior) is for him to take the entire cake as is, wrap it up, write his name on it and try to sell it on the street.


  18. Posts
    1,382
    I really hate metaphors like that. They just cloudy the discussion with false choices. (Imagine you are a monkey with only one hand and a pirate marries your sister...)

    Paper Airplane isn't violating any legal agreement in the EULA and UT has already said they have no problem with using the resources verbatim.

    It's a non-issue. There is no reason to resort to words like "offending party" or suggest that using free assets, which all Unity users have permission to use, is other than honorable.
    Slender Man Chapter 1:Alone [Google Play Store] [iTunes]

    Slender Man Chapter 2:Survive [Google Play Store] [iTunes]


  19. Location
    NE Ohio, USA
    Posts
    7,173
    Quote Originally Posted by grobm
    But Kudos to them if they make a quick buck, at the cost of respect in our community.
    Quote Originally Posted by col000r
    Nicholas, you said it. - "The whole idea of Unity is to get help to make your games." - Your games...
    Right on.

    Frankly, I think it's awesome that we all can use the Unity art assets if we want to. But seriously, let's consider why you would do this. If you're not an artist, or a musician, or a programmer, or whatever, you can still have a good idea of what you want your product to be - you're a director, in this case, and a person who should be browsing what is available, to fit with your vision. Everybody is limited in some ways, and it's good that we can all build off of other people's work for creative and technological advancement purposes.

    But, do you honestly think these people came up with the game idea, "Oh man! It would be AWESOME to fly a paper airplane in a sewer!"? Unity only has so many assets; I'd say it was entirely possible that they had the idea for a paper airplane sim, and then just used what environments were available for no extra cost. But if the extent of the creative vision was "paper airplane", then the vision was not fleshed out enough to warrant a shameful App Store release like this.

    So, did I vote "wrong" because I think it's a breach of policy, written or implied? No. I did that because I think it is unethical to litter the world with shovelware crap. You can make money to feed yourself in much more useful and scrupulous ways.


  20. Posts
    2
    Hmm. perhaps we should go look for all those people using Dreamweaver templates and scripts for their websites and harass them for being 'indecent', eh?

    What he did was legal, perhaps even clever IMHO. At the end of the day what matters is the quality of the gameplay.

    @Jessy
    Why don't we do this for most Unity games on the Appstore, then, since most of them aren't much better than this? Check out pocketgamer.co.uk's review of Crazy Snowboard to see what i mean.
    I'd like to say i've seen any compelling game from you Unity developers, but so far i cannot say i've come across any yet.

    if it takes borrowing heavily from the included asset library to produce a good looking Unity game, then so be it. poor gameplay aside, how many Unity games in the appstore actually look any good?

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